Why should I get this X220? Plus some other questions..

Alexo,

Like yourself, my comment was summarizing / acknowledging what others have reported. On the Lenovo forum, I've tried to be open to the opinions expressed by others and have tried to reflect what others have said to acknowledge them. When I post to reflect or summarize what I've heard in the discussion, my posts should not be selectively excerpted and used out of context to mean something I did not.

I've seen the pics - primarily those posted by turnstyle, and we've reviewed it with engineering.

Speaking only in terms of personal opinion, there may be some degree of variance from panel to panel and in the level of perception by individual users when it comes to these sorts of issues. Maybe the persistence could be demonstrated after 10 or 15 mins on some panel somewhere - I have to take people at their word and trust that they used a clock and that they are seeing something significant enough to them to make it unsuitable for their purposes. There may also be a difference in being able to see something if you are specifically looking for it, vs it happening regularly during typical use and to such a degree as to be a real detractor. Again, I have to take first person accounts at their word - it being a subjective truth for them.

Yesterday, I sat with an X220 on my desk for over 30 mins with an open browser and could NOT see ANY image sticking on the IPS display and I cycled through many different kinds of backgrounds and held the screen at different angles looking for it. That doesn't prove it can't happen, just that it didn't happen in my particular case at that time. There are people that have weighed in on both sides of this saying whether they have or have not seen this and whether it is or is not a concern for them.

Lenovo issued an official tip that explains the phenomena as to why it can occur.
http://support.lenovo.com/en_US/research/hints-or-tips/detail.page?DocID=HT051485

What is your objective here and on the Lenovo forum if you don't own the X220? You can voice your opinion that this is a concern and you will or won't buy based on your belief of how common this is and the odds of you experiencing it and whether or not you could accept it. That is certainly fair.

I think we've heard that it is a concern for you, and that because of it, you won't be buying an X220? Maybe another product is a better fit for you? Maybe an X220 with a TN display?


Best regards,

Mark

 

@Mark,
Please do not get me wrong but, all I can tell you Mark is that it is simply unprofessional the way Lenovo handles posts and genuine concerns on the Lenovo Forum. I've been reading those posts since end of May there and I was shocked about how posts and links were deleted from one day to another. Some were more critical others just had links to videos showing the problems. I felt so bead about those people because they just wanted to get an honest answer from Lenovo and they did not receive them for months even though they paid the fair price for the product.

The best example for that is the IPS panel image ghosting issue. Some experience severe ghosting others don't but one thing is clear that something is just not 100% right with those panels, otherwise people would not complain, right. I mean you cannot hear this image retention problem about the 9 series Samsung.

I am about to pull the trigger on one but I am afraid that it would bother me after reading through the "official explanation". I am now considering to buy it with the regular TN display instead.

So here is a question or two for you:
1) Is Lenovo looking into fixing this by let's say sourcing "better quality" panels that do not exhibit this image ghosting?
2) Or, the "Official Explanation" closed the case for the IPS panel issue?

Many thanks for your honest answer.

 

mz/x

Today - the official answer on the IPS is as the tip notes - the belief that the panels are not defective. I am not aware / informed of other actions at this time regarding those panels.

Regarding forum moderation:

If you look around the Lenovo forum, you will see that we allow a significant amount of negative conversation to stand, especially from those that are legitimately seeking help. Often, those types of discussion exist where someone has had a bad service experience or has otherwise been unable to get their problem resolved through normal channels and we try respond and provide help as much as we can in those cases.

We also encourage constructive feedback and sincere problem solving efforts from our customers who come together around a common issue. In many cases, based on their collective feedback, we can understand and resolve problems more quickly. Some of the recent fan fixes via BIOS updates, prior video driver updates for switchable graphics, X220 mSATA compatibilty, Turboboost functionality on T520, etc, etc are examples of this. There are certainly a number of issues / discussions around fans, throttling, etc in progress and these issues are being worked.

I think you will find that posts that are in accordance with the rules stand, and our moderation policy is to try first provide guidance, secondly to edit as needed to bring a post into compliance, and lastly and only as a last resort, to remove duplicate content or content that is deliberately and repetitiously posted against the rules.

The intent is that we can run a community that serves the broader interests of all our customers who want to use it as a resource to get help. I realize that there are individuals or small groups from time to time, who want to use the community as a platform to drive a negative campaign agenda and while we want to hear their feedback as well, we can't allow it to make the environment so toxic as to be unusable as a productive support community.

Links to external videos are fine so long as they are offered to help further the understanding of an issue and advance the discussion.

If you have some specific concerns in mind, please send me a PM the lenovo forum with details.

Thanks

Mark

 

Mark,

Thanks for the answer.
Can you point me to the technical information of the two available panels. I would like to compare them before I decide which display I will order with my new X220.

 

mz / x

The standard information available via pdf on the Lenovo site is pretty high level and arguably a bit vague in terms of detailed specs on the two panels...

http://shop.lenovo.com/us/ww/pdf/x220_datasheet.pdf

The PSREF sheet offers a bit more on the two panel...
Personal Systems Reference (PSREF) sheets

Some: 12.5" (317.5mm) HD (1366x768) TFT color, anti-glare, LED backlight,
200 nits, 16:9 aspect ratio, 300:1 contrast ratio

Some: (Premium) 12.5" (317.5mm) HD (1366x768) TFT color, anti-glare, LED backlight,300 nits, 16:9 aspect ratio, 500:1 contrast ratio, IPS, WideView (170° viewing)

 

Because a mouthpiece shouldn't be this much louder than those that he "represents."

When actual owners of a product express less dissatisfaction with it than a person who hasn't owned said product (but who is claiming to speak on their behalf), well... something's amiss.

Disclosure: I don't own an X220, but I do have first-hand experience and regular access to several units via my employer and local retail channels. I've used several different units for a total of a couple hours, and haven't seen any problems with the IPS panels that they have.

 

Hello Mark,

I appreciate your reply.

My objective? I have two. The first one is to get a laptop that fits my requirements.

On paper, the X220 is probably as close as you get (If it had higher vertical resolution, it would be perfect). However, in real life, it has its share of issues. Most of them can (and probably will) be corrected but the panel issue is problematic.

The IPS display was the reason I wanted (and still want) the x220. Otherwise, I'd have bought an Asus for quite a bit less.

Firstly, 30 min is way to short, considering that an average workday is 8 hours. To put things in perspective, see this article about IR and especially the following quote at the end: " we displayed a fixed image on several TN, IPS, and VA monitors including the ViewSonic VX922 (probably the strongest overdrive) and after 48H without a screensaver, changing anything or switching off, the display remained impeccable".

Secondly, what you say is the problem.
See, I might get a panel that shows image retention after 15 minutes or I might get one that doesn't after even a long time. But if I get the former, I cannot even expect Lenovo to replace it since the "engineering tip" declared the phenomenon as "normal".

If you were to say that you consider IR normal if the static image is displayed for several days non-stop then I would have accepted it, but you didn't.

Which brings us to my second objective: to make sure that if I do get a bum panel, Lenovo will replace it with a usable one. Let me define "usable": I often work in Visual Studio for hours and then open an image editing program to do some precision work. I expect no less from a business notebook with a "premium" screen.

My hope is that raising awareness may cause Lenovo to reconsider.

Best regards,
Alex.

You are correct. I will therefore ask the people who do experience the problem firsthand to post in my stead.

 

Mark@Lenovo:

Hi! I bought a X220 last week and it was manufactured the 17th of July. I am having some problems with the display too (which I haven't encountered on any displays before). Besides the ghosting, I am suffering from this weird issue:

Screen issue on Vimeo (have HD enabled!)

So when coming from a black screen (screensaver or whatever) or fullscreen (youtube) it takes some time before edges of things become clear. And no, it is not the AF of the camera or something like that. I am seeing this IRL, hard to catch though on a camera.

How would the engineering staff explain this? Is this a side effect of the ghosting/IR?

 

In the work environment, I use two of four x220 laptops each day for several hours at a time. I am having the exact same poor quality IPS screen issues.

All four of the laptops have the same level of terrible image persistence.


Besides having bad light bleeding along the bottom, they each start showing colors and shapes from what I previously had on my screen after only 10 minutes of use. It takes 20-30 minutes for the shapes to disappear. However, since I need to work on my laptop continually, that means I am forced to see an inexcusable disaster of "ghosting" over top all my work, all day long.

These laptops were bought at different times from different locations. This points to a much larger problem than Lenovo is letting on to.

I have been in close contact with a major reseller of the x220's. He has confided in me that other customers are returning their laptops for refunds because of the screen troubles they are facing. The reseller has attempted several times to contact Lenovo for an official response, and for the permission to send in the laptops for repair. Lenovo has only told him that the "broken" screens are behaving the way they intended.

It's a shame. I think most of those people who asked for a refund would have rather kept their x220's if only Lenovo would stand behind the quality of their products and offer a repair.

I thought at first that the reseller was exaggerating. So I personally contacted Lenovo to ask if they would please exchange my broken screens for ones that work properly. (After all, Lenovo is claiming that some customers don't have trouble, so that must mean Lenovo is capable of putting good screens on my laptops too!)

I have a three year warranty on each laptop. As of date, I was told by the representative that I should not bother to return my laptop. I was told that Lenovo will only put another screen with the same poor quality image persistence problem on it. They said that Lenovo doesn't consider this screen to be broken, and with that, I was refused proper customer support/repair.



All I wanted was the "premium" screen I paid so much money for.


What I got was a rude slap in the face by Lenovo and a weak cover up story instead...



Buyer beware.

 

Looks like Apple did the same thing. I'm not defending the issue, but i do wonder if I would even be looking for an issue when I get my X220 if it wasn't for threads like these. I'll try not to since I spent probably 8 hours or so trying to find the best quality/priced laptop 14" and under and chose the X220.

 

You certainly have a lot to say based on second hand information

Here's my first hand information from my X220 i7, 8GB, IPS, SSD, WWAN config. It works well, I have no discernable ghosting (or whatever) problems, no fan problems, no throttling problems and its ridden hard and out away wet.

I'm very, very happy with it, thank you Lenovo!

 

Whoaa. 4 out 4 is bad statistics. Why don't you bombard the twitter of Lenovo and other outlets that they do not stand behind their product.

On the other hand, I have a theory and somebody with a bit of better knowledge can tell us whether it has some merits. I think that maybe the display is just fine but either the bios or the display driver (or both) is screwed up and overdrives the display causing the ghosting. I made the assumption based on the premise that LG would not change the underlying technology to produce these screens for Lenovo. I assume LG makes different size of displays for other buyers using the same technology. If that's the case then something is at play and not the display.

I mean looking at the number of bios updates who knows what they screwed up at Lenovo. What do you think?

 

i would say your hypothesis (not theory) is nothing more than a wild guess based in part on FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt).   just being honest.

they don't and that's a poor assumption to make.   rather than assume, research.

the recent BIOS updates contain no changes for the display.   anyone with knowledge of BIOS structure can easily disassemble all publicly posted revisions, compare the microcode, and confirm.

 

Erik,
My bad, I should have used the correct term "hypothesis".

I disagree with you about the panel technology, I think LG uses the same technology to make panels for others. Otherwise they would not be able to offer this price.

What I was asking was not answered so let me rephrase the question. Is it possible that a not optimal or faulty display driver (or some parts of the bios) can cause this phenomenon of ghosting?

 

i'm sure LG uses the same technology found in the X220's panel in other panels as well, but not all LG IPS panels use identical technology.   that's a point that needs to be differentiated here.   for example, the panel in my 30" NEC graphics display (which is about $2200 retail) uses far better technology than what's found in any LG notebook/tablet panel.   there are different types and technologies of IPS that go into the hardware.   "IPS" doesn't mean everything is on an equal level.

if this isn't the point you're disagreeing then please clarify.   there's a lot of confusion on this topic from both sides and i'm rapidly losing track of who's arguing what.

 

I think most of us agree here that IPS doesn't mean everything is on an equal level. It is also true that not all LG IPS panels use "identical" technology.

I think the issue at hand right now is that people who received a X220/T with the image persistence effect on their monitor have reasons to believe that their monitor panel is defective but Lenovo's response was that their monitor is behaving "normally" or as expected. From what I know about display technology as an electrical engineer here at UCLA (and apparently other E.E. P.h.D candidates in the lab I work at that deal with microscopy/optics agree with me on this), I personally do not believe the monitor panels are behaving normally unless there was a specific design/manufacturing flaw that makes it normal or common with these specific IPS panels.

I would love for a more detailed technical response from Lenovo (it would be great if it can be in the form of an attachment in addition to the official tip, so people who don't have the technical background would not be confused by it) instead of the ambiguous E-field diagrams in their official tip. As far as I can tell, those E-field diagrams do not explain why the image persistence effect on these specific IPS panels occur so fast or that it's normal, it merely demonstrates that it is more common for such a problem/behavior to exist in a IPS panel than a TN panel, but then again, a lot of IPS monitors do not exhibit the same behavior even if they use the same IPS principles illustrated by Lenovo's diagram in that tip. They did not even define what an extended period of time is, how much more ambiguous can it be? I can tell you for a fact now, the shortest time required for the image persistence to appear that I have observed is 13 minutes and 23 seconds. As it is deceiving to other users who might think the effect only occurs after an hour or more of a stationary picture (and most people don't leave their screens on for more than a hour like that, so they can care less about it).

I know I will be comparing apples with oranges, but I have used many different IPS panels (think 8+ panels, excluding X220's) over the years for CAD design and other imaging applications such as analyzing microscopic images. I have only seen image persistence effect on perhaps 1 of them (well including the 2 X220 Tablets that I have, 3 of them), and the image persistence on that monitor wasn't even apparent unless it has been on a full hour of a stationary image.

Obviously, the IPS technology is not identical, but this behavior of image persistence that occurs in <20 minutes should not even be considered normal.

The official tip to correct for the problem shows:
Image persistence can be prevented by using screen savers and other power management tools to turn off LCD display when the screen is inactive. However, even though I am using the monitor and the image is not inactive only just parts of the monitor image remains stationary this problem still exhibits itself and screen savers do not kick in when you're using the monitor.

I did own two X220 Tablets (I returned one) and at the time, both Tablets exhibited the image persistence effect, one was obviously worse than the other. It was especially noticeable when I used it for graphic/CAD design or even just taking notes in class (since I would be on the same page of notes until the page was filled and when I move down the page, there would be the persistent image on top of the white page background).

I think it's fair to say that though the sample size of 8+ IPS panels that I have used is not close to the thousands of panels LG produces in a day, but it is still a decent amount of panels to have used for an extended period of time for an average person to develop the intuition that the image persistence effect is rare and not normal.

 

that's exactly why i said there's confusion on both sides.   personally speaking, i think it's a bad idea to have engineers write PR releases of any kind.

 

Agree, all I was trying to say that it is possible that the very same technology is used for different size LG IPS panels, but we only heard about the issues of the Lenovo X220 IPS.

Again, can somebody tell me whether it is possible to cause image persistence on an IPS panel with a faulty display driver or bios?

If not then we can safely say that the panels are defective because ghosting in less than 20 minutes is not normal in 2011 on an IPS.

 

Those are all desktop displays. Comparing them to a notebook display is apples to oranges. Your case would be much more persuasive with hard data on comparable notebook IPS displays.

4 out of 4 isn't any sort of statistics at all. (They could have, for example, all come from a single bad batch.)

I likewise have no discernible ghosting and no fan problems, and am generally pretty happy with the X220, but there are some issues that still need to be corrected:
1. Excessive throttling of the CPU under high load on the standard 65W power supply. (Lenovo is working on the problem.)
2. Annoying startup "ding" sound from recent versions of the Bluetooth driver.
3. Crashing of latest version of ThinkVantage Toolbox. (Work-around available.)
4. Support website broken by recent updates. (Lenovo is working on it.)
That said, I'll not be able to qualify the X220 for volume purchase unless and until there is better assurance of IPS screen ghosting not being an issue.

I know from first hand experience that some recent relevant Lenovo Forum posts were summarily deleted (and worse) without guidance, warning, or explanation, but our subsequent conversation on this issue has me hopeful the policy will work better in the future. Thank you.

1) You actually have no experience, and the people you trust are unknown to you. On what basis do you trust them? Anything more than faith?
2) What matters is the spreading of unreliable information, and what I contest is the extent and severity of the problem. We actually have no idea what percentage of screens are affected and to what degree. My own X220 IPS screen does not exhibit ghosting.

 

So far, assumption is all we have to go on here.

We can assume that JNavas isn't lying about his screen working correctly.

We can also assume that the dozens of people who have complained about moderate to terrible image persistence are also telling the truth.

We can assume that since Lenovo has previously issued a statement referring to IPS screens as exhibiting these "ghosting" side effects that they are also aware that a sufficient number of their customers received less-than-satisfactory screens.


If Lenovo will step forward and do the right thing by providing exact data as to how many IPS screens they sold which do not work properly, we can discuss this subject with more accuracy here. It may turn out that customers with working screens are very lucky while everyone else received poor quality ones. It may also turn out that most people received good screens. In either case, Lenovo can eliminate this confusion and dissatisfaction by offering to replace the flawed screens with the same quality of ones some satisfied people claim to have already received.

I hope Lenovo will put an end to all this conjecture by simply offering a "working" screen replacement for those who feel that they didn't receive the "premium" screen they paid for.

 

Has anyone here received an x220(t) laptop with the outdoor display yet?

According to Lenovo's order page, this display doesn't support multi-touch. I am interested in hearing how the screens on those laptops perform and if image persistence is common.

I use my x220t's professionally. Multi-touch is an unnecessary "frill" I disabled as soon as I received the laptops. I would definitely be willing to have Lenovo replace my multi-touch display with the outdoor one if the trouble with light bleeding and frequent image persistence (that I am experiencing right now) would be solved.

 

is it just me, or is the attitude in this thread getting ugly?



Have a Magical Day!

 

[1] I'd call it "speculation".
[2] Dozens? Where? All I've seen is a relative handful of such reports. Perhaps you're counting repetitions?
[3] I see no real basis for such a conclusion.
[4] Lenovo customers unsatisfied with their IPS screens have the option of returning their X220's for a full refund. That would seem to make this largely a non-issue.

 

JNavas,

Are you getting paid by Lenovo for defending them so desperately? (Ok, I was joking here)

Have you actually tested your display the way others did?

And, do you think all those people who voiced their dissatisfaction with the IPS panel have nothing better to do just to come here and complain about the "perfect" IPS display? Has actually occurred to you that only the Lenovo IPS display received this massive volume of complaints and not any other brand?

Have you actually noticed that Lenovo intentionally misled consumers by not disclosing the fact that these IPS panels can have severe image persistence in less than 20 minutes? I bet they would lose a class action case on this.

Man, buy a lottery ticket! 4 out 4 is pretty bad and especially they were not purchased the same time.

 

Hi JNavas, thank you for your eagerness to respond here. If possible, and out of respect for the moderators and other users of this forum, will you please try to limit your responses to more constructive ones?

As it was pointed out in an earlier post, the tone of this forum is becoming less positive. For anyone having troubles with their x220 screens, the hope is that Lenovo will offer a working replacement. A negatively toned thread will only hurt the chances of that succeeding.

I know that you may have nothing to lose since you stated that your x220 has a good screen. But please be considerate of others as well.

Thanks.

 

It's not just you.

[1] I think my responses are at least as constructive as yours are. What's most unhelpful are the kind of personal remarks you are making, which are only appropriate in private messages.
[2] I doubt this thread (tone or otherwise) has any impact on Lenovo whatsoever.

[1] That's not funny. It likewise wouldn't be funny if I wrote, "Are you getting paid by Dell and HP for bashing Lenovo so desperately?"
[2] I have thoroughly tested the IPS display in a variety of real-world usage scenarios. Have you?
[3] Based on what I've seen "massive" is a wild exaggeration, and there are complaints about other displays as well -- no product is perfect.
[4] I've seen no evidence that Lenovo "intentionally misled consumers", and I'd be happy to take your bet. Those unsatisfied with the X220 for any reason can return it for a full refund, making this largely a non-issue.

The X220 isn't perfect, but it is a remarkably good machine at a remarkably good price, and those expecting the performance of a high end display in a bargain ultraportable are being unrealistic.

It's unfortunate that Lenovo chose to call it a "premium" display because that term is so easily misconstrued.

 

They should simply call it "FlexView" like they used to for the T4x and T6x series. That would be a much better term to use.

Or better yet, call it '12.5" FlexView (IPS) HD (1366x768)' because I always have to explain to people that "Premium" means IPS. I wish I could simply tell someone "get the IPS screen, it's worth it" but I have to explain Lenovo's weird branding every time.

 

So really, "Why should I get this X220?". Just kidding. Interesting to see how this post has morphed into "X220 image persistence" (which is fine btw, as the post was long dead anyway).

Happily I don't seem to have any issues with my X220 and am enjoying it greatly. Hopefully the majority of X220 owners are as well. Bummer for those that are having these issues.

 

I think everyone should refrain from making broad generalizations because no here really has the answers. I think it's safe to say Lenovo has sold quite a few of these machines. There certainly has been a let's say handful of complaints about the screen, particularly the ghosting and image persistence. Does that however make for a trend? I don't have a basis to answer that. I can say my X220i and the couple other I've seen have been very good, but I can't say others have not or others cannot state it is a serious problem. Only Lenovo probably can.

 

I agree with ZaZ and I think this track is a bit sidetracked. I think we should post our display related questions/arguments/observations under this thread.

Also, I think this X220 is one of the best on the market in this form factor if not the best bang for the buck. I wished Lenovo would address these issues quickly.

 

Ok, one year later, here is my X220 report. These are the issues that I have encountered:

- there are a couple of white dots on the screen. Possibly dead pixels - not sure. I only tend to notice them on lighter backgrounds, and don't notice them very often. If this was my plasma TV screen, I'd freak out. But as it is, they are a very minor irritant, so I haven't pursued any remedy.

- the colors are less vibrant than on my Dell 2311 IPS monitor. So, if I do any post processing of an image on my X220 (which is a bit of a pain to do anyway due to the small screen size and resolution), I end up making the colors more vibrant/saturated than I really intended to do. Not sure if there is a solution to that.

Apart from those issues, I must say that I have been extremely happy with the X220. Performance wise, it really is great, and I have no problem using it as my main desktop (when paired with the Ultrabase), and having many windows and program running, and running programs like Lightroom 4. And it's size and weight (again paired with the Ultrabase) means that it is very easy to get mobile.

The only thing that I still might do is to add an msata SSD drive for the operating system and programs, but the process of switching over to that now seems a bit daunting, so I'll just chew on that idea a bit more.

As I said numerous times in this thread, thank you all for the great advice and input that you provided. I'm sure that it helped out more people than just myself.

Cheers,

Wayne

 

Just ordered an X220, not sure if lenovo will honor it.

But does the newly ordered X220 still have screen issues?

 

No ghosting issues were fixed quite awhile ago.

 

The X220 IPS panel is not on par with a good e-IPS panel like the Dell 2311, much less a professional IPS panel, but any display used for serious photographic work needs to be calibrated. It's as likely your Dell needs adjustment as your X220. Some useful/helpful calibration resources:

• How to Calibrate Your Monitor
• Monitor Calibration: Is Your Monitor Calibrated?
• Monitor Calibration for Photography
• LCD monitor test images
• Calibrate your display

The STN panel on my new ThinkPad T420s was greatly improved by calibration, as was the IPS panel on my prior ThinkPad X220.