Is Ubuntu bloated?

Replies in bold.

Openbox can be standalone or run under gnome/kde/xfce. I'm using GDM and Crunchbang Statler(debian testing) at the moment.

 

The only thing that annoys me about LXDE is My Documents.

Yes, I'm OCD.

 

Right here with you

 

Apparently, debguy thinks he knows everything and assumes I know nothing about open source.

Anyway, two points:
1) LXDE is the only DE out of all them that have a lack of info on their home page - they also lack several features including the keyboard layout option. The recommended solution is to use the xfce utility. I interpret that as they are too busy to offer their own or they don't care about that feature. As Thomas said, it's a collective effort and I think it's a shame no one apparently is working towards a LXDE-based utility (GUI-based, in particular). I doubt it's that complicated. XFCE has one, a GUI one that works fine.

2) They have a good concept but it looks to me that the project needs more polishing. If the interest or progress is really slow, I think it should be okay to point it out. If you are saying people are free to join the project, how does one know there's something else internal that might be trouble?

 

I think you should stick with compiz. I'm not absolutely but pretty sure, that most other window managers can't do all thre of your requirements.

I like roxterm. I think it should do everything you want.

You can add that line to your.bashrc or another place you like to make it permanent.
But if I understood that correctly, the idea was to change between different layouts, which would mean a temporary solution would be preferred

1st: I never claimed that.
2nd: Releasing something collaboratively means to have a public "work in progress" branch. This is what LXDE is right now, which unfortunately is mistaken for "crappy final version" by some people.

No, neither do I believe that you know nothing about it, nor do I believe that I know everything about it.
The point is just, that the idea of open source is, to release as early as possible, so that people who are interested in contibution can do that as early as possible. This way a project usually grows much faster. In contrast to that, closed source software will usually be released when the release team thinks it's fit for the market.
Therefore you'll usually see initial open source version numbers starting with one or more zeros while closed source software usually starts at 1.0. LXDE is currently at version 0.5, so obviously the developers don't think it's done yet. Therefore you shouldn't accuse it of being in the shape it currently has. Just give it some time and come back when the version number reads 1.0.

It's not complicated to write such a GUI tool for someone who's familiar with how LXDE works. I guess to write such a tool without respecting the LXDE design principles wouldn't take a good programmer more than an hour. I think I could make it within some hours or a day. The problem is, that if everybody wrote software for LXDE this way, the whole thing would become a mess and there would be nothing that could be called "desktop integration".
I once was at a point where I thought about doing some very little contributions to LXDE on my own, because I found something of that I thought "hey, that shouldn't be hard to do". But the truth is, even if the problem itself is trivial, to work in an integrated environment means to know and to respect the principles this environment is based on. And to become familiar with these principles is much more work than most people think.

Criticism is totally ok. But criticism should always be constructive (I admit, I sometimes forget that too). What is not ok is to expect them to already have everything ready that you would expect from Gnome or Xfce. Some things are just not done yet, some aren't even goals of LXDE.

 

As for as I am concern if _performance_ is not a b1tch, IT IS NOT BLOATED.
If you want to see an obvious bloat look at the OS that requires a Double Layer DVD for a basic installation media.
Ubuntu pale in comparison when you mention bloat to that *nix.

 

This. If your computer isn't running at a crawl, why bother?

Say you had a computer that booted in 17 seconds, and opened the browser in .5 seconds. And let's say 3 hours of work got it down to a 15 second boot, and a .3 second browser launch. Ask yourself this: Was 2/.2 seconds worth those 3 hours? You'd need to boot your computer 5400 times, in order to break even with the time you saved in your boot compared to the time you spent reducing it. Assuming you boot your computer 3 times a day (which is generous, considering most people boot it once a day), that 5400 times is nearly 5 years worth of booting. By then, you'd have a new computer, given most computers are considered obsolete after 3 years. Or, in terms of speed opening your browser, you'd need to do so 54,000 times to recoup those 3 hours-perhaps a little more realistic.

The point, in my hilariously over thought example, is that if you can do the things you do in a timely manner, don't waste your time trying to shave off seconds. Heck, if you try, you may waste even more time trying to fix things you accidentally broke with your sudo this and your sudo that. Most computers nowadays are faster than most people need.

Unless of course, you're the record breaker type. Which is totally fine. In that case, yes, Ubuntu is bloated (compared to other distros). But you probably already knew that, and would much rather run Gentoo.

 

The idea of opensource isn't to release as early as possible. It's to provide the code so people can access it if they want to. You're seriously mistaken.

And a temporary hack would in fact not be preferred, the preferred solution is to change the default, and change it with setxkbmap if you need a different one(how often does that happen?).

 

That's completly true. I'm tweaking in sake of tweaking... It gets me some satisfaction when my system boots in 5 sec, my own custom kernel compiles in 10 mins etc. Learning and testing new things in fun, too. This is why I love linux. I'm never bored because there is always some stuff to try out, mess the whole system and then fix it, and try another thing...

 

There goes MGS2392 spoiling the thread by being all logical and stuff

On another issue, how is the stability of Ubuntu? Someone mentioned in another forum to be careful with Ubuntu kernel updates as they might lead to the system being unbootable.

In my 2 weeks of Ubuntu usage, I've had two applets on the desktop crash with gnome displaying an error message and asking me if I wanted to remove them...not a good sign.

 

I was afraid that misunderstanding would arise, I was just too lazy to write enough to avoid it in the first place.
You're right, the general idea is to grant access to other people. But this idea has three subideas (there are more, but let's keep it simple if possible):
1. Some sort of idealism because the authors think open source is just good (as opposed to evil).
2. To build trust for your project because everyone can examine what you've done and see that there are no hidden backdoors or other nasty things in your project.
3. Because you'd like to find others to help you with your project, be it coding or just good new ideas.

I guess you refer mainly to 1 & 2, which is perfectly ok. Here it doesn't matter when you release something. What I was referring to in this context (maybe not clearly enough) was 3. Here it does matter when you release your code, because inputs from others might influence the overall design of your project, and changing the design becomes harder the more advanced a project is. This is why many open source projects have releases at very early stages.

You're right. A temporary solution was indeed not what puter1 had in mind.

 

If you compare web pages, you can tell LXDE is either a minor project or they don't have the resources. Therefore, you're in trouble right there. That is a valid critique which debguy ignored and I guess other fans of LXDE ignore as well. How hard could it be to design a better page. Just compare all the DE's pages with LXDE's. The rest have info presented well, detailing changes and version numbers. LXDE's is a mess. It's like they hired two people off the street.

I don't think it should be that hard to create/design a GUI that changes keyobard layouts. If you need CLI, then they might as well close up shop and go home. There's others like fluxbox or whatever that can be used if you don't want to use a GUI.

As for Ubuntu, someone asked me what my critique is. Well, considering their reputation for not contributing upstream, that's one. There's criticism from the Debian camp for not sharing or contributing back. When Ubuntu does a lot of taking and not enough sharing, we can think of other companies who do the same thing.

They're backed by a major corporation in Canonical and have an affluent individual running the show yet other smaller, distros, led by one guy or a small team, seem to give back more upstream. Also, Ubuntu always does things differently. I think they're the only ones with 'permanent sudo.'

Ubuntu does deserve some credit, though, with respect to Wayland Server. X is a total mess now so anyone working on any alternatives deserves some credit.

 

That is indeed a valid critique. I'm not ignoring this.
But what you do is to judge the whole project by its website. There is a saying for this: "to judge a book by its cover"
Your 2nd critique is that LXDE lacks some GUI helpers compared to other DEs. This observation is true, but judging the project by this means to ignore LXDEs goals and current development status. Neither does LXDE have the goal to be as complete as Gnome of Xfce, nor does it have a final version yet.

If it bugs you that much, why don't you go and change this? LXDE is a Free Software project. You can join and improve it. Nobody stops you. Free Software exists because of the participation of people.

As I said, writing such an application isn't hard. In fact a simple perl or python script would do. But for a reasonable integration into the DE it would have to be an lxpanel applet. Are you familiar enough with how lxpanel works internally to write such an applet? I'm not, but on the other hand I'm fine with setxkbmap on LXDE, so I don't see any reason to look into the lxpanel code.

I'd demand a refund.

fluxbox is only a window manager, not a desktop environment. You compare apples and oranges.

Ok, I'm out.

 

Why should I go and improve it when the entire project's users don't care about this?

I don't know what their goals are. Their web page is horrible, imho. I guess the project is in its infancy stages but as it stands, it's very poor if you if you ask me.

 

It's been going on for years.

 

Ubuntu is not known to be one of the most stable Linux distros.

If you demand stability try:

Slackware
Debian (stable and testing to a point)
CentOS (aimed mostly at enterprise where stability is needed, based on RH)

The LTS releases are a bit more stable on Ubuntu then the other releases. But the LTS releases are not as bleeding edge as the others.

I like the idea of a rolling release model. I use Arch linux because pacman is awesome and stuff rarely breaks unless you install everything. I run Arch with a BlackBox and tweak that to what I need, this gives me a very fast OS (I can boot Arch on my laptop in around 10 seconds).

Debian is awesome for Apt. Apt pinning and whatnot just rocks. I always do a base install and I wrote a script to get all the packages I normally use. You can use testing or unstable and have the rolling release thing going on, testing froze right now as testing is used until it becomes stable then testing becomes the next release (in this case 6.0).

On another note, why does everyone act like Ubuntu is the only thing that exists for new Linux users? I have been using Linux long enough to remember when there was no GUI. Or how about spending many all nighters trying to get X working?

All versions of Linux (GNU/Linux to be correct) are really easy. There is nothing hard about any of them if one knows how to read. X is now auto configured, the kernel has got so good with drivers that 9 out of 10 pieces of hardware are going to work out the box (if not 10).

Now is a great time to get into using Linux. I wish I would be starting just now using it as I may have saved myself some gray hair.

And to those whom want to argue about this open source project or that, you do know the whole point of open source is choice right? And you also know that when you say something bad about a project you are complaining about people whom donate time so whatever your complaining can be used freely? This irks me! If you don't like the direction of a project, jump on board and help develop it! For those who say "I can't", shut up and be glad you have people out there that give you free projects to complain about!

Complain to MS and see how far you get!

 

"all versions of gnu/linux are easy"

Not entirely accurate. Look at Arch or Gentoo. When was the last time your mother compiled your desktop or manually setup a GUI? XD

 

If you can read, you can install Linux.

Where some are a bit harder then others, the ones that are harder have great documentation.

If my mother knew the hardware in her system I would have no issue having her do an Arch or Gentoo install (while reading the docs to save me some sanity).

Now a Linux from scratch would be a journey I would send no one on, but they have great docs as well.

 

How many people WANT to do that, though? Most want something to just work. They'd think their computer was "broken".

 

Thats so true.

I find it a shame that we now live in a world where people expect things to just work without having to know what makes it tick, or at least have a clue whats going on under the hood.

We live in a lazy world where research is no longer needed (some would call this progression, I call it teaching ignorant people bad habits).

Then we wonder why we have problems with viruses and whatnot. This is because everyone just "clicks".

It's truly a shame!

 

I think this is to some degree our fault, as the "technologically inclined" - most of us don't explain to people anything. I do my best to, but thanks to Microsoft's monopoly people are trained that things work a certain way. I do think there are many people who pick up a computer for the first time and WANT to learn about it, though, and it's not always those who have grown up with technology and computers always around, many older people for example can become very good with computers on their own.

 

LOL.
They are simply not interested.
Their brains are too preoccupied with TV Serials, games, fame, money and "social networking" updating their status as if they are the most important people in the world and everyone wants to know.
If they could simply shift 50% of their competency in facebook into the technical details...

 

I agree!

Let me use my mother as an example:

She has had a computer since Windows 3.1. She still calls me about every day for the same issues she has always had.

She is just an example, but the mentality is about the same across the board (I have many people I help with computers).

When the problem happens they can understand the steps to fix the problem if told. None of the information is kept after the issue is solved.

This is my year of complete open source! I am giving this laptop to my wife and getting something a little more open source friendly. I will be so happy when this happens as all the people I know use Windows. I will say "sorry, I no longer use Windows".

I get so tired of "helping" people in circles. I have learned what I know from years of trial and error and much research. I feel it is a waste to just give away information for the sake of giving when people have no interest in the given information.

Linux on the other hand is much better. People who use Linux are interested in computers (in general) and any information you give a Linux user is usually retained and added to the process of deeper knowledge.

IMHO, Windows is for the clueless, Linux is for those whom want to learn. Not saying there are not Windows users whom know there stuff, just saying the number of users whom know nothing far out weighs the users who do.

 

+1

I don't agree. There are normal binary repos in Arch. Only stuff in 'Arch User Repository' is ment to be self-compiled.
Btw, GUI? Who needs that if you can have tmux ?! (joke, ofc ;p)
And yeah, this is reason why I don't want to even try Gentoo - could you imagine compiling something like OpenOffice on some crappy CPU in notebook?

 

With something like Yaourt, that argument even becomes moot.

 

Who in the hell WANTS to do that? Arch is rolling for a reason - setup is a nuisance.

Also, just because you can read doesn't mean you will understand any of it. This argument is pointless.


As to people not wanting to know, this is why you forcefully put it on them.

 

Setup of Arch is not hard at all. The rolling release model is awesome. After upgrading every six months when a new release of a distro comes out, it gets tiresome (I have done this for many years before moving to Arch)

As for the reading, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

You can only teach those whom WANT to learn. Most have no interest in learning when they can go to forums or simply do a Google search and be spoon fed the info the need at a drop of a hat (or call the geek friend/family member).

I wish I could force, I really do.

I suppose tough love is in order. Someone calls me and the new answer is "get a book" for the same reason as above.

 

Let's face it, computers (in the average Joes view) are becoming similar to cars; if something is broken, you go to a mechanic and let him/her figure it out so you don't have to.

As for Ubuntu, the "half-baked" state of their solutions (PulseAudio anyone?) bothers me more than the bloat. IMO Debian has its fair share of problems too (for example lib + lib32 vs lib + lib64), just like any distro, but it just doesn't break in the same way as Ubuntu.

By the end of the day, Linux From Scratch is the only way to have the system exactly like you want it to, but most people just don't have the time to maintain and patch it in the long run (at least not me or any of my friends). It's fun and educational the first few months though

I guess this got a bit lengthy, but if you're still reading I think that while Debian is a fair compromise for me, everyone is different and therefore someone is bound to have a different view of what's bloat and what's not. This is the beauty of Linux distros; you end up with the one you think suits your system best.

Be it Ubuntu, Gentoo or even TinyCore, it's your choice and I won't say everyone will think Ubuntu is bloated even after comparing it to other distros.

It all comes down to opinions and while many (including me) think Ubuntu is bloated I'm sure there are a lot of other people just entering the world of Linux and wouldn't have a clue what tools are actually available to them from the repos if they weren't installed right from the start.

I bet some people will disagree with what I just wrote, in fact it's guaranteed to happen since these are simply my opinions. Oh, and thanks for reading through all of that .

 

My issue is that what wrong in figuring out the issues ourselves?
Are people really that busy? (Drinking? Socialising? Facebooking? Scheming for money? Watching trashy TVs?)
Since the stone age human progress by figuring things out so why this suddenly becoming unimportant?
Even if it is of no relevance, it is good brain exercise.

 

That has become the problem with society in general...

We (in general) should be able to "click" the problems away, and if we can't we call a friend or take it to a shop.

Without becoming to political, we see the problems and won't step forward for a solution (if you live in the USA you know what I'm talking about, again without being to political).

We all want a high paying job without earning it! We all want a nice car without buying it! We all want a nice house without earning it! This is the mentality of society!

It is not just in computers it is all around us!

 

An OS is a tool to run other software. Not an end in itself. I kind of like the "it just works" type of software. Ubuntu gives me that... and it is fast on three year old hardware. If you really hate "bloat" why not run Linux from the command line? DOS is pretty fast too.

 

The things Ubuntu includes are there because they are useless. Ubuntu has had major problems fitting everything on one CD for years, they can't exactly add ANYTHING useless. And just because you don't use it doesn't mean others don't.

 

Exactly....with only an OS, I'm broke

 

I didn't expect this thread to become an analysis of modern society... As far as Ubuntu being bloated, my 1st interaction with it was Dapper Drake, I just putting the drive in, not having to select any packages like I had to in Mandrake or RH. I can always remove what I do no want later. And I'd like them to keep it that way. Ubuntu is one of several debian-based distributions one can choose from, so if you are not satisfied you can always install something else.

 

That would go for anything, not just debian based.

Mandriva and Fedora don't require you to select packages.

 

They did when Mandriva was still called Mandrake and Fedora didn't exist yet. That was a long time ago. But you still need to select packages in the Mandriva Powerpack, at least that's the way it is in the 2008 version of it.

 

Because that's an install Cd. And for a reason. The most used distribution is a livecd.

 

I used to use Linux for learning purposes, but since then I've come to view computers in a utilitarian manner. When encountering a new technology, I usually ask, "do I need it?" "does it work?" and "how much does it cost?"

You can see that this is a purely pragmatic point of view, although I agree that computer users should have rudimentary knowledge of what their computer does in order to accomplish the users' daily tasks. In fact, I would say that it is a responsibility.

However, I wouldn't recommend LFS for nearly anyone. I appreciate the value of learning and understanding, but I'm not a masochist.

 

Why treat a computer OS different from everything. Should we know build OpenOffice and our web browser from from scratch? Do we also have to understand the nitty gritty of what is going on behind Android 2.2 or BlackBerry OS 5.1?

Sorry, I really do not get it.

 

When comparing Ubuntu with Microsoft products, I think Ubuntu is not bloated.

 

As a Linux user I tend to want to know those things.

 

I don't care if you use Mac System V on you're PC from the 90s or 80s, not everyone does. Not everyone needs to.

 

Of course not everyone needs to know, but I think most geeks who use Linux want to.

 

True....you don't have to know how to build an airplane to fly it. With linux though, even Windows and DOS in my case, I've always been drawn in to understand how it works, usually to hack something or another....

 

I'm compiling my own kernel for my Android based phone (HTC Dream) too

 

Well it is always better to know then not know.
I can't think of any examples where it is better not to know than know (Cheating Spouses? ) except in cases where the knowledge has no value example info-entertainment <-- Don't give a cr*p about this.

However my opinions on compiling from source differs.
Usually distros with pre-compiled packages are already quite optimized and recompiling seems to be reinventing the wheel giving you microseconds performance optimization which makes little difference.
Therefore distros with pre-compiled packages are preferred.

 

My experience is the same.

I have been using GNU/Linux a long time and have found that the only thing really worth compiling is the kernel, even then the gains are small.

I get more of a speed boost by making sure that the daemons and modules being loaded are very small. I can boot my Arch with KDE in 18 seconds from grub to full desktop! There really is not many stock built distributions that can claim this speed.

Can't wait for tax return, getting a SSD and another 4 gigs of ram, can't wait to see my numbers then! Just for fun I may run something like openbox and see if I can hit a 2-3 second boot (that would be awesome).

 

Quite a lot can. Ubuntu boots in 10-15 seconds.

 

Not really in it to compare different desktop environments but Gnome is a bit lighter then the newest KDE.

 

Hardly.

They are about the same, KDE runs a bit faster in some cases.