*** MSI 16L13 (Eurocom Tornado F5)/EVOC 16L-G-1080 15.6" Owner's Lounge ***

http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...his-right-mind-buy-a-4k-screen-laptop.776830/

 

Awesome. Good little post. 1080p IPS screen it is!


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That thread is ancient. Now we have 120hz screens for FHD screens which is even nicer. Check my sig

 

FWIW, the 4K screen is IPS-type technology, although not the IPS trademark name. I too moved from a Macbook Pro Retina, and the detail quality on small fonts was a factor.

Also FWIW, games for me are working fine if set to full screen mode at 1920x1080 resolution, if I don't feel like playing that particular game at 4K. 1920x1080 is exactly 1/4 the pixels of 3840x2160, so the scaling is clean. It really comes down to whether you want the 120 Hz refresh that is only available with the 1080p.

 

Yea I think just hearing of the possible scaling issues with 4K and the non gsync and not as good color issues of the 120hz I'm going to stick with the regular IPS with gsync. Plus saving a little cash there to put to something else in the machine is always a plus.


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I have to agree. I have had multiple laptops with 4K screens and hated every one of them with a passion. Literally every single time it has turned an otherwise good product into something absolutely loathsome and despicable to me. It's truly horrible to have 4K on anything less than about a 23-inch monitor. If you adjust the scaling up to 200% so that text is large enough to read without getting a headache, then everything else is goofed up. Text overruns the boundaries of menus, Windows title bars are too big, and text is too large to fix within the boundaries of dialogue boxes, text in notification balloons and tool tips is ugly and huge. Plus, anything more than 100-125% scaling, you are basically destroying the most compelling reasons for having more than 1080p... screen real estate. Without the extra screen real estate, there is no point in having more than 1080p. I have 2560*1440 on my P870DM3 and that is borderline too much at 100% scaling due to having text smaller than ideal. All things considered, a good quality 120Hz screen is the best bet overall, especially with a tiny 15-inch laptop screen. I had an XPS 15 with 4K and while the screen produced beautiful images it was the most miserable piece of crap I have ever tried to use with 4K. If I set it to 1080p instead, that also looked like crap due to fuzzy text at a non-native resolution.

 

So would you do the 120hz in this then? I'm still not 100% sold on anything until I order obviously. lol
I just wish this had the option like some others with 120hz and gsync that way I don't have to worry about tearing.
But if 120hz for now is best and then maybe switching to IPS later I'm good to hear about that as well. Just trying to make the best choice before ordering this next week.


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Yes, I would. I switched from 60Hz to 120Hz on my TF5 and like it better.

However... If you care about G-Sync and brightness control, don't do that. I don't care about either of those things, but some people do and is it stands right now neither one is working with the 120Hz screen option. G-sync probably never will, but there is a chance brightness control might get fixed.

The problem is that this is the only 15-inch 120Hz screen that is manufactured and NVGREEDIA may or may not ever approve it for G-Sync. But, honestly, I have had a Sky X9, P870DM-G and now the P870DM3 and I consider G-Sync to be a worthless gimmick. I disable it on everything. All it does it lower my benchmark scores. I can't see any difference gaming with 120Hz screen whether G-Sync is enabled or disabled. Even with a 60Hz screen it seems no different to me other than lower benchmark scores.

 

I hear you, and I think your reasoning is sound, but honestly I'm just not having the scaling issues you describe. I run at 200% setting in Windows, and out of dozens of apps I have installed, I have only one -- a legacy app from 2006 -- that won't handle it gracefully. There were maybe one or two others that I had to mark as "do not scale high DPI" in the Properties menu for the program's icon. The vast majority of my apps just worked. Some of my 3D apps actually understand that they're running on a 4K machine and let me scale their UI independently from Windows itself. For example, in Blender where I really need the real estate, I get it, but regular productivity apps and web browsers have sensibly-sized fonts just like a 1080p.

I believe you about what you've experienced, but I wonder if this is something that has been fixed since you last worked in a 4K environment? Or maybe it's just that the apps I run are a different set than yours.

All that being said, if there had been a 3K rather than 4K option on this machine, I probably would have gone that way as a nice compromise -- still retina-class resolution, but less GPU workload in games.

You know how much I respect your views, but I think on this one we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

Well, if they fixed those issues that would reduce the miserable factor for W10 RS2 users. W7 is still my preferred OS, so it probably did not get fixed there. But, it still doesn't correct the usable desktop screen real estate problem. Setting 4k at 200% scaling gives you the same usable desktop screen space as 1080p, so I still find no value in 4K for that reason alone. Based on my experience with the 1440p screen on my DM3, I would not want that on the TF5 personally. I like running 100% scaling and 1440p @ 100% scaling is borderline too much for a little 17-inch screen. It's still doable, but on 15-inch I doubt I could put up with it at 100% scaling.

And, it's not only the software. The desktop and web browser text are too tiny even if some software applications overcome the problem on an individual basis.

 

Gotcha. Well I typically run mine at full brightness about 90% so that's not a huge deal.

As far as G-Sync, I have never seen it in real life where having it or. It having it is an advantage. I know later down the line when the GTX 1080 ages it will probably be useful. But at that point I would probably want to swap the GPU out anyway. Love that about this laptop!

How are the color and viewing differences in the screens? It's great you have had both! I really value a beautiful screen and nice angels as I will be working on it all day long.


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I believe HID has a solution for brightness control coming soon. Does Eurocom have a fix?

@Bearded Hedgehog - The 16L screen options for G sync don't really make sense outside of the 4K screen. At 1080p the gtx 1080/70 can easily push most games to 60 fps even if a few settings have to be changed. That makes G sync worthless. At 120 Hz refresh, you may experience slight tearing, but it should be much more difficult to notice. I wouldn't base your decision off of G sync alone. There are other ways to stabilize your image and eliminate screen tearing. If you are experiencing screen tearing on the 120 Hz panel you can either adjust your graphics settings to where you can get over an average 120 fps and use a frame limiter to hold at about 120 fps. If the game is too demanding you can limit your fps to 60. The gpu will render at a frequency that will allow your panel to display exactly one frame at a time and there will be no tearing.

 

I think the color and viewing angles on both 60Hz and 120Hz screen options for this machine are excellent. I'm not a color-o-phile guru by any means, but the colors look great to my eyes and the viewing angles are really good.

 

Yea I'm more worried about color differences and angles honestly. But @Mr. Fox is providing some great insight into them not being that different.


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Those temperatures are better than you quoted before, but as you say they are on MAX fans, so that's probably a loud solution! You can probably make some improvements by the repaste you just mentioned. You might not need to replace the pads, you can just check that they're positioned correctly, and not folded over on themselves or something stupid - you can always move them as long as they don't break/split.

 

Gotcha I'm kind of a color picker but I'm sure they really are close. Thanks for the input!


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Not on this machine. Max fans are unusually quiet compared to anything else I have had before. I actually wish they were louder and more powerful.

 

Fair enough, sounds like he could still get colder temperatures and better performance by turning some attention to the heatsink though: repasting & checking the pads are positioned ok.

 

Yes. That would be good.

@rancid - What thermal paste is on the GPU. (You may have already posted this, but I did not see it.) The stock pads are good quality and fit well on my TF5, but if they were stuck to the heat sink it is possible one of them is out of place. I had to replace one of my pads because it got folded over on top of itself. Apparently, when it was being assembled originally, that pad came loose when the heat sink was turned upside down to install it on the GPU. When replacing pads it is always best to place them on the GPU, not the heat sink. This way you know they are perfectly aligned and then there is no way one of them can sag or fall off while installing the heat sink.

Also, are you running this machine on a flat surface? If so, also elevate that back of it or put it on a cooler or something because you'll be choking it for air and creating heat sitting on the normal feet. This is good advice for all laptop owners. Gaming with the laptop not elevated will always increase temps.

 

Oh, yes...I was seeing the same issues as you in W7. I think you've named the main difference; I didn't realize you were on W7.

Granted. For me, the main issue is retina clarity of very tiny features such as lines in wireframe mode in my 3D apps. Many of my apps render fonts in scalable world space within the 3D viewport, so this is a big deal. I think that you, rather than I, speak for the vast majority of users; I'll be the first to admit my use-case is unusual (but not unique...there's at least a couple of people on this thread with similar requirements to mine).

The browser and desktop text are regular size for me at 200% scaling, just very clearly rendered.

The laughable case for me was Blender, which once I got it set up does a magnificent job of expoiting the 4K for its 3D viewport, but still making UI widgets large enough to be readable. It's fantastic once you get it set up, but its default scaling is awful.

 

With regard to the 120hz panel and loss of brightness control, is there any third party software that can mimic the effect of dimming the screen?

 

M$ Morons play with everything else in their new OS Creators Cartoon Edition, than use all resources to fix DPI Scaling... Everything is as well half done Aka Micro$haft Doesn’t Seem to Care!!

 

They care about stupid stuff, like XBOX and Surface garbage. I used to admire them and wish I could work for them, but I stopped thinking good things about them when they released Windoze 8 and left it messed up. They have been on a steady nosedive ever since and I have no respect for them at this point. Their existence is now a necessary evil.

 

Microsoft Analysis Shows Windows 7 Gaining Small Slice Of Market Share From Windows 10 A bit more happy now @Mr. Fox ?

 

Not surprising.

 

Hey guys my 7700k in F5 sits around 48~50 Celsius during idle. Oced to 4.6ghz and undervolted to 1.01v by throttle stop. Room temp is about 20c. Does this temp sound normal or is it bad temp?

I'm thinking to lower the minimum processor rate in windows power option to see if i can reduce some temp. Is that a good solution? Or in ThrottleStop does it have a similar setting so my cpu doesn't run 100% all the time but only does when it needs to?

 

Those temps are fine.

Check the C1E box on the ThrottleStop main window and that will allow the CPU to clock down at idle. You can also check the "Power Saver" box on the main ThrottleStop window when performance is not important. That, or switch to the "Balanced" or "Power Saver" Windows power profiles when you don't need stronger performance.

Edit: @Maxmoky - see below.

 

I'm not sure what options you have avalable to you in the BIOS of your laptop, but I've found on my desktop that the best performance while still allowing for massive power savings & voltage reduction during idle was to ensure that C-states were enabled in BIOS & to combine this with the Windows High Performance Power Plan profile. My testing using PCMark8 showed that this combination of settings gave the best level of system responsiveness when compared to using Windows Balanced Profile and C-states disabled - the upshot of this is that letting Windows manage your CPU is not an optimum setting - hence best to use the High Performance Power Plan (to ensure that OS has no say in managing your CPU power settings) combined with C-states that are managed by the CPU itself. I'll see if I can find the post where I detailed my testing & I'll link it here. EDIT: Haha, it was in a thread that no-one responded to - boo! Here it is: http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...eatures-vs-performance-responsiveness.803030/

EDIT: as a caveat to what I have said here about C-states & performance: my settings on my desktop result in the lowest Package C-state being C3(even though I've chosen C6 in the BIOS as lowest state ), while individual cores are allowed to enter C7.

 

It came with the IC Diamond from HID and I got the delidded processor from them as well. I am going to apply some Grizzly to it this afternoon and will check the pads, good advice. Laptop itself is elevated on a cooling pad but I was reading putting some furniture pads in between the laptop bottom and the notebook cooler can improve temps as well so the air has room to travel some, will also give that a shot.

 

Thanks for the info! Does enable C state in Bios same as toggle C1E in Throttle Stop? Also whats the different numbers mean after C? like C1 C2 C6?

EDIT: Just googled and learnt about C state, Cool stuff!

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Alrighty everyone! Got my own little monster ordered!! Beyond excited to get it, and now starts the checking the order status every 5 minutes! Haha

Just waiting for 120hz panels to arrive later this week and the build is on!!

Thanks @Donald@HIDevolution for all the input and help getting this thing going!


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I'm wondering if anybody knows the answer for this question? I assume a program like f.lux will still work, but is there a way to dim the screen with software that does not distort the colors the way f.lux does?

Edit: It appears something like this could be used to simulate lowering screen brightness? http://www.nelsonpires.com/software/dimmer/

 

Donald is good people, but all the guys @ HID genually care about their customers. I've ordered from all the major resellers and HID has had excellent support so far.

 

Yea it was an awesome experience. I have talked to several people and they are all helpful!


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You may as well brag a little and put your build specs in your signature!

 

@D2 Ultima Performed a repaste tonight with Grizzly Kryonaut and Witcher 3 on max details (hair works on) stays at 86C. Mass Effect hovers between 86-87 now and the Overwatch title screen with unlocked frames is rock solid on 85C. Was your laptop GPU overclocked when you posted the overwatch screen shot? I noticed your clock speeds are almost 100mhz higher than mine on the title screen. With an overclock I can match what you have with same temps. Also, was your fan on max speed?

I'd say the repaste definitely helped, I will do some more testing and see how it looks once the thermal paste has a little more time to settle in. The paste job that came with the unit was pretty bad IMO and pretty much over everything (way too much).

 

I was not OC'd and my temps were climbing, I just took a pic around 3 minutes. I had to use SLI because it would not have gotten hot enough in single GPU. Those are actually low speeda for me due to heat.

In your case though, you may be power limited from your GPU being 150W. My cards were not maxed out but were pulling a clean ~150W each there, so a fully stressed card will likely need more. I will check and reply how single GPU unlocked fps draws in about half hour

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Have you found the Creators Update improved 4k scaling? Is it all "fixed" or are there still "gotcha's"?

 

So 4k scaling worked fine for you before the Creators Update? You are on Windows 10, right?

 

nope, doesn' fix crap. still blurry here and there

 

FIXED Or IMPROVED? Put what fits

 

Here, I said I would check with single GPU unlocked FPS (game maxed except local fog).


Despite the fact that it's night (and thus a lot cooler) you can not only see a large variance in temperatures (why it's boosting much higher) but also that the card is holding essentially over 180W of power drawn. Your 150W 1080N is incapable of this, so you get much lower clockspeeds overall, as far as I can tell.

I actually wish that my card had a higher TDP allowance; somewhere around 210W or so at a minimum. I am sure if I endured the complicated process of undervolting the GPU via MSI AB voltage curve adjustment, I could get that thing to stick at 1898MHz (the default max boost) around these temps, but... that's something for another time.

Edit: Note that the game this time was actually open for around 5 minutes as opposed to the three, and that I didn't even touch 60c on either component.

 

Couldn't agree more!

 

hi guys sometimes my 7700k would suddenly drop its core clock from oced 4600 MHz to 798MHz something and never come back unless I reboot. When it happens, the HWinfo64 says:
Core #0 Power Limit Exceeded Yes
Core #1 Power Limit Exceeded Yes
Core #2 Power Limit Exceeded Yes
Core #3 Power Limit Exceeded Yes
IA: Max Turbo Limit no no yes
IA: Turbo Attenuation no no yes

Sometimes things go back to normal after i reboot, but sometimes it happens again. There's no thermal throttling alerts. Does anyone know how i can fix this?

 

Only three of my apps aren't playing nicely with hidpi scaling. One is Origin, that app is a crapshow anyway, always has been. The other two are getting an update soon. It's not like they don't work, they're just blurry. Everything else looks amazing.

 

Do you have Power Limit 1 and 2 set to 160000? If not, do that.

Also, be sure overclocking is enabled and set the Core Max OC Ratio to something higher than the clock speed you are running at Turbo max. If there is any question, just set it to 83. All that number represents is a limit. You multipliers will determine the core ratio.

 

Thanks @Mr. Fox
My turbo ratio limit was set to 80 in ThrottleStop. About the power limit 1 and 2, do i set them in Bios or TS? I see ThrottleStop has TPL settings which i set Package power limit to 160.

 

Make sure they are both enabled and set to 160000 in the BIOS or ThrottleStop might not be able to override the values.

 

That is a huge variance in temp IMO. I played about 2 hours worth of games last night to really test the unit and I was still hitting 89-90C without thermal throttling on mine. I wish more people that had the unit could chime in what their temps are, but I am going to say it is too high regardless. Going to try a copper shim in between the heatsink and gpu and if that doesn't work I will call HID and see what they think.

 

I haven't installed the Creators Update yet.