*** MSI 16L13 (Eurocom Tornado F5)/EVOC 16L-G-1080 15.6" Owner's Lounge ***

Hey Robbo, thanks for the great feedback. I'm putting together a thorough review of the performance/temperature during actual 4K gaming, since we already have tons of standard benchmark results shared by Mr. Fox and many others. So far, I've tested over 12+ different major titles and have a pretty good handle on how this laptop performs during 4K gaming, and absolutely loving the performance overall. However, the GPU temperature is most definitely the biggest concern and I must admit it worries me to see the GPU temp hovering between 91~94C almost constantly during certain games. Having said that, the high GPU temperature does not seem to be causing any issues/instability that I can observe.

In my humble opinion, this is the world's first laptop that can play games in 4K at solid framerate while being small/light enough to practically travel/fly with. The visuals at 4K is absolutely gorgeous compared to 1080p in gaming or movies, and I think Windows 10 most definitely improved on the scaling since Windows 7/8. I understand all this performance must come at a cost but I am genuinely worried how long the GTX 1080 can survive while operating around 90+C for prolonged amount of time. I plan on re-pasting accordingly once the Bitspower IHS arrives next week to further improve on the CPU temp, but I'm not sure if re-pasting will help much with GPU temp, as I trust HIDevolution's technicians work more than mine. Bottom cover mod will be done the moment Donald announces it for sale but I'm almost tempted to just do it on wife's F5 to test it.

Does anyone know any potential issues of prolonged 90C+ temp on GPU such as 1080? As I mentioned earlier, everything seems stable and performs as intended during those GPU temp, but it would be comforting to know how long we can expect it to last.

 

I would start with the @Mr. Fox bottom mod and CoolerMaster U3 to see how it go.

 

Hey Papusan, while I fully intend to set up my own modded U3 for home use, I'd really like to see if GPU temp can be improved without any external assistance. I'd like to travel as light as possible and just carry one of these for the prop.

 

Or just use a few "free " bottle tops or coolfeet. Does exactly the same thing

 

There's no doubt it's a great laptop, but I can see you want to improve GPU temperatures if you can - and so would I if I had yours. You ask about prolonged usage of the GPU at 90+ degC and whether that will cause any harm to the GPU. It's a good question that is difficult to answer, but for sure NVidia put the thermal cap of these GPUs at 92 (or is it 93 degC), and therefore they obviously don't think it's good to run it any hotter than that - so it seems you're right at the limit of what NVidia deem to be acceptable. I wouldn't want to be right on the thermal throttling limit with either my CPU or GPU, for a start you'll get a higher boost clock if you can keep it cooler - how many years the GPU can survive at 90+ degC I don't know, but I'm sure it will live longer if it was just in the 70's or 80's. If you can do a half decent job of the bottom case mod on your wife's laptop & she doesn't mind if you "make it ugly" then you don't have a lot to lose by getting the tools out & giving it a go!

 

Put it the other way. Here home we have 5 years free warranty on everything(money back or new similar machine). I would expect the (re-sellers) and Nvidia would be scared if the graphics can't stand 5 years

 

That sounds great, but could you elaborate on 'we' part? Are you referring to NVIDIA?

 

Yes, I think NVidia would base their temperature throttling points against reducing warranty claims. Whenever I've bought laptops they've come with one year warranty as standard with purchasable warranties up to three years. Perhaps we could expect a GPU operating at thermal throttling point to last at least one year, perhaps 3 yrs. If we were certain that a GPU operating at thermal throttling point could last 5 yrs like you're intimating with regards to the 5 yr free warranty that is often offered where you live (Finland/Norway??), then we wouldn't need to worry about GPU temperatures because in 5 yrs the GPU is obsolete anyway. To be honest, I'd be surprised if a GPU would have a good chance of lasting 5 yrs if it's constantly bumping up against the thermal limits.

 

Nvidia have to pay the re-sellers loss. The re-seller can't loose money on every single machine sold if the graphics can't stand-hold the Norwegian 5 years free warranty. Some will loose Remember also a lot other countrys have the similar warranty as we have here. Some 2 and some 3 year free warranty.

Some have to take the loss bruh!! Not the customers!! Same for TV and all types electronic++++ In short everything.

 

Temperatures of prolonged 90C+ will lead to early hardware failure. Consumer grade PC hardware is not designed for excessive (24 hours, 7 days, 365), prolonged use at high temps of 85+. You only have to read the limited warranties from these companies to see that. I am so crazy about temps that while at home, gaming on this laptop, I remove the bottom cover (until I can get an extra bottom cover) to ensure I never go over 80C.

The blame is MSI at this point with their weak fans but the modded bottom cover will help a lot.

 

Mistaken post! Delete if you like!

 

In electrical engineering terms (see disclaimer below!), Icc on a chip data sheet is measured power supply current to the package "I" is the electrical symbol for current, because "C" was already taken for capacitance; "cc" stands for "collector", and it's doubled to distinguish the "collector", or positive, input to the chip package versus the collector of a single transistor on the chip. The whole "collector" notion is actually a holdover from the days of TTL (transistor-transistor logic) in which chips used bipolar junction transistors (BJTs). Most chips today use CMOS (complementary metal oxide semiconductor) field effect transistors (FETs), which have "source" and "drain" rather than "emitter" and "collector" as BJTs did. You'll sometimes see Vdd and Vss for drain and source voltages to CMOS chips.

Disclaimer: All that being said, I really think the "Icc" notation in the XTU software is intended to mean something other than amperes, because pushing several hundred amps into a microchip would probably result in a smoking lump of ash. They were probably referring to the positive power input pin, and not specifically to the unit of measurement involved. For all we know, the number may be some arbitrary derived value that doesn't translate directly to volts or amps. It's probably best to regard most of the numbers in XTU, other than those representing frequency, as simply being operating parameters you can set and/or limit.

 

if your gonna mod the chassis, add some heatpipes and another radiator and area for qa third fan, thats what it needs.

 

what are these ?

 

well anything ampheres in there is miliamps obviously but XTU is **** and like extremely confusing at best when your new to it.

 

A colleague ran thousands of GPUs 24/7 so has excellent reliability data on modern GPUs.

Ignoring GPUs with poor engineering & GPUs with defects at t=0:

- high temperatures & time were the clear drivers of failure

- low-end consumer GPUs were not less reliable than other GPUs (despite warranties and marketing specs)

- conclusions are only indicative for consumer use (he used high-end power regulation, had climate regulated labs, ran the cards hard 24/7, etc.)

Regardless, you just can't get around the physics that increasing heat decreases the life of electrical components in a exponential way.

His advice for consumer computing was to try to keep temps (well) below 80*c.

 

You're Welcome

 

That's interesting, well that goes along with the often quoted idea that it's best to keep your CPU & GPU's below 80 degC! Is there any chance you could get hold of the raw or graphed/tabulated data on his findings - it would be really quite fascinating to see? (What is the context & background of this information?)

 

The 80*c and below is simply his personal recommendation for personal computers based on typical exponential heat-time diagrams for electronics components we can find online. He said the implications of heat for personal computer users were "obvious" regardless of what Intel or Apple or Dell marketing says. His massive GPU database stats are in line with those typical diagrams.

Unfortunately, he wouldn't even show me summary stats or recommend graphics cards (nda and you can imagine a bunch of other reasons). He noted forums did a good job identifying garbage components but might take several months.

Interesting to note that the conversation started when I was asking about the high temps & lousy cooling of my macbook pro and what the 100*c rating on my Intel CPU really meant.

 

The good news (for hardware makers) is the vast majority of consumers do not utilize the full potential of their machines. They are not likely to have hardware failure due to sustained high temps with typical computing use.

The bad news is a good portion do not care for basic maintenance (i.e. cleaning fans, reapplying TIM and etc) and that is where I believe most of the consumer hardware failures stem from.

In my early computing years, I worked for a great friend of mine who owned a pawn shop. I was tasked with cleaning and setting up the computers for resale. I was dumbfounded about the amount of dust, hair and debris that came out of these computers and how simple cleaning made the temps drop 15 to 20C.

I too would love to see the reliability data and how it compares to real world, noncontrolled scenarios.

 

Good point. I suppose many consumers don't really have to worry about heat driving component failure. But performance oriented users do have the minefield of throttling schemes to deal with.

As you note good basic setup and maintenance can prove lots of benefits at low cost.

 

Yes, I understand, it's a pity we can't see the data/graphs, etc, as it all puts it beyond refute & is just plain interesting to see too. I'm not surprised by the findings though, it's in line with what a lot of people deem as being acceptable long term temperatures. I've always had the philosophy of: 90's unnacceptable, 80's borderline, 70's ok, 60's excellent, anything lower than that astounding!

 

its almost impossible for me to really keep temps below 90c when doing prolong baking in unity. i have some environments where proc continuously runs @~100% for 20+ hours. also the ambient of 30+c dont help much, but still happy that this is the most stable laptop i have ever own, exactly 2 crashes during this full week and laptop was 24/7 on unity baking. sharing couple of pic what unity's baking can do to this machine lol.

 

Same here; to get any kind of reasonable bake times in a 3D app like Unity, you have to run the CPU pretty hard. Fortunately, my worst bake times on this machine are still under an hour, and the GPU is fast enough I can do almost all my early development work in realtime lighting and only bake when I'm almost done with a project, and am getting ready to build it to run on other targets.

When I was at the Unite tech conference in LA last fall, the Unity engineer from the lighting team who was at their booth told me they are headed toward GPU-driven lightmap bakes in the long term. They wanted to roll out progressive bakes first, which is now in beta, but he said down the road they'd exploit the GPU. Baking is a heavily multithreaded process, so that should make a world of difference.

 

it is really, that will be really awesome, i really hate the current enlighten its extremely time consuming. am really looking forward for progressive baking but its currently very unstable for me to use(works ok for small interiors scene, but big Terrains are no go). it's awesome that you guys can attend such conferences such as UNITE, im already getting excited for gpu light baking would be huge for Unity.

btw that scene i share pic of was 94 jobs on clustering and is still on final gather 3 jobs almost 3 hours later lol, and its a really small dungeon.

 

haha thanks.

 

For anyone looking for this laptop, it's still on sale for a few days left by Eurocom.


3 days left.

 

You guys all use and talk about how good LM and Conductonaut is, and Kyronaut if you don't want conductive pastes, but why has no one (at least that I could find) used or tried Phobya Nanogrease Extreme? Is it because it's not available or something? 16W/mk and no one has used it here?

 

I have now put the finishing touches to the MK1 U3+ mod (Dust covers and black rubber feet). This is the child, pet, Mrs and TV viewing, lounge-friendly edition.

 

LINK please.

I will try it and post results.



ALSO : if anyone wants to combine deals, I can help them make configurations this evening.

 

I just ordered a tube from Newegg a few minutes ago. Amazon says it's "Not available".

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA9F93H45706

 

16W/mk doesn't tell you the whole story. Both Gelid Extreme, Icd and Kryonaut have lower numbers. Eg... Gelid as low as 8.5W/mk
People stick with what they know will give good results. And what's work very good on desktops doesn't mean they work equally good on the worse cooling in laptops.

 

Got some as well.



I will do a full comparison on a delidded 7700K once I get it, and redo it a few times in the comparison to see 100% what the results are and post them here. Give it a few days or a week or so.

 

It looks like you could really benefit from turning off paging (reduce disk IO) and double your RAM from 16GB to 32GB, or more. A little hardware resource tuning like that could really reduce batch job run times

 

um, actually performance is performance Papusan, you hit your head today or have a brain fart or what, lol > Yeah you mean just because it's good in an ideal situation in a desktop doesn't mean it will be good in a less an ideal, true, but the same paste might have the relative same performance in comparison to otherpastes, the exception are those that the thickness itself is compensating for heatsinks that do not make proper contact at all.

It would be the same in any setup, save one where it reacts with the materials (undesirable situation), whichever one allows the better thermals will be consistent, until theres more to this than there is now.

 

Put it the other way. Do not believe in everything written on the syringe / packaging or what yooo see on the web And the results from this paste haven't been on the top from what I have seen. I'll believe it when I see it.

 

Yeah I agree wholeheartedly with that statement, it's like, every week now a new paste comes out 25% higher numbers than the last one. ****, we're half way to where liquid thermal paste was originally. This is why I plan t test it completely. If it is better, then I will sell it as an option for all laptops I configure for my customers, if not well, we have grizzly Kryonout which is actually really good, and I was skeptical at first but it really did provide better results.

However, I used to use Tuniq TX-4 and while it's numbers where not as great as some , it provided better temps for me when used the way they suggested using it, that was when I started using all pastes that way and noticed Gelid Extreme and tested that too, about the same in performance too. But Grizzly does perform better than both. Not by 40-50% as the numbers would suggest, but like 1C of a difference minimum.

 

See below from Liquid metal testing. Not a few people will always suggest Grizzly Condictonaut vs. Coollaboratory Liquid metal. Yeah, I know some will get better result with Grizzly. But as well other can get the opposite results. Nothing is printed in stone. Numbers aka W/mk don't tell the whole story.



Edit... The way yooo <should> apply Liquid metal for better temp. Maybe too little?

 

Yes we are listening to all of you and planning to make next generation of Tornado F5 better by improving "everything". We already redesigned bottom case and working on additional changes.

 

could you please tell the community how you will be offering these new and improved bottom panels ?

Will you give current owners a discount or exchange ?

Will it only be included in current models past certain manufacturing date or a new version of the F5, i.e like a commonly speculated variation known as the F7 rumoured to be another variant of the MS16L13 ?

 

I have found that tests like this, when there was a difference in performance in the testing, to literally be nothing more than how fresh the paste was. Leave the cap off a grizzly thermal paste for a few days or hours, then compare it to one that is fresh... same with the Liquid metals.
This is why in the day, they originally used silicon based pastes, because it was like a thick grease that never dried up or expired, what we are using today is not the same, we're using pastes but not greases anymore.

Like say I prefer one brand more than another, and that one is always fresh in my inventory, and I have one i do not prefer, but I keep it around for awhile before using it on occasion, it slowly dries up and maybe when i use it next, it yields less than favorable results, backing up my love for the original one I use everyday.

 

I was tinkering with my clocks a little more this evening and I was able to break 18k in Firestrike. A personal best. My temps were getting higher than I like so I think testing any more limits will have to wait until I've modded the bottom cover. My average temps were still great but a peak up to 85 C on my gpu, and I was happy to stop.

 

Very nice ! You have room to go, if your curious, like your CPU has a 20C headroom for pushing it further as an example.

 

One more day guys to get these for a fabulous price !
I do not think Eurocom will be offering the same discount again soon, although they have offered this laptop a few times for good pricing this year.

I would speculate we will see like the X4E2 next or something like that instead, who knows.

Summer is where they announce all the computer stuff, big stuff anyways, like mid june, so you never know.
But that puts any specials like this a month away !

I have also gotten some word that Eurocom MIGHT be considering Delidding as a service, and special thermal paste options like Grizzly Kryonout as well, in the future.
I have to think that this F5 made them wish they offered those services directly. They maybe were never as concerned with them with previous model lines that were using like haswell- mobile and Ivy bridge and Sandy bridge etc..
Though surprisingly not many people delidded thier CPU's when they were using 4790K's and the like in desktop replacements, if I recall there were a few laptop options out there.

 

Haha, just checking you're joking about too little liquid metal being used on that chip - he put too much on I'm sure, I put a lot less than that on my 6700K during delidding!

 

While awaiting to play with my system I have spent ample time on this forum browsing and reading. I stumbled upon this thread and got hooked pretty early because of the enthusiast level. It was fun and educating to read.

However over the past week I have read through ALL 635 pages. It has left me speechless. I did not really know what BGA/LGA was before. Infact i still believe I do not understand it completely.

A big thank you to all the main contributors of this thread. Tinkering the way you have with your laptops has made me want to do it aswell. Inspiring to say the least.

On a side note. The fact that the fox drilled two holes in his bottom plate over the fans and drastically dropped temps. (5-10degrees right?) Is outrageous.

I always though the manufacturers actually design their air intake/outlets with optimal flow and performance. Huh I just now realized how incredibly duped we are as consumers because most of us (me) do not actually understand what we are buying.

Thank you guys/girls!

 

I joking? Too much? Maybe enough for 3 chips I wonder how much he will use inside and on top of the IHS. And not forget Heatsink

 

Haha, cool, just checking, it was your dry sense of humour!

 

Yeah, I was dumbfounded that manufacturers would not design their bottom covers with optimised airflow in mind - it seems like such an easy win towards increased performance & reliability, not to mention consumer satisfaction!

 

Maybe he figured that if he used enough liquid metal he would not require a heat sink.

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