*** MSI 16L13 (Eurocom Tornado F5)/EVOC 16L-G-1080 15.6" Owner's Lounge ***

Can you post here when those drivers have been updated? Not all of us here make a habit of checking you website for them.

 

@Eurocom Support
I sent you a PM to explain the problem. I hope it makes sense.

 

I sent a PM to @Eurocom Support over this CPU power limit EC issue, because MSI has to address this. 91W unavoidable TDP is not acceptable. Their system to throttle the CPU based on AC power limit model SKU's from video card detection from their BGA line is the entire reason this BS is happening, as Mr Fox said. The Clevo systems don't use this type of absurd cancer. Just basic cancer power throttling that can be completely removed. The MSI 16L1 is unable to exceed 91W TDP on the CPU because their "EC system detection" for system power throttling (which throttles the CPU when maximum AC power has been exceeded--> 230W for GTX 1070, 330W for GTX 1080) does not seem to have or recognize the 7700K system profile. The Bios sets the ID to the EC (GTX 1070=230W= "32", GTX 1080=330W="33") on the base units with base Bios (the system Bios seems to make the ID set to a certain value, by interacting with the EC), but the EC does not seem to "recognize" the ID so it forces a TDP cap and ignores all Bios settings for power limit overrides.

This issue was apparently not even tested or found by anyone before this, because very few people would push more than 91W TDP on a 7700K. Such an issue would have been easily found on a 45W CPU however. So basically, the Bios supports the CPU but the *EC* doesn't!


Let's get back on topic about the TM1 after that huge cancer EC thread crap, lol

 

If you are speaking of the underside of the CPU heat sink, I applied electrical tape so no liquid metal could get on the aluminum.

You and I can only describe the symptoms and demonstrate the effect, which have been apparent since the day I received the Tornado F5. Wasn't a big deal at first. I figured it was a status quo example of the incompetence we see from every notebook manufacturer and it would get fixed by firmware mods, but the overclock limitations have survived around 100 firmware and EC mods by Svet and @Prema, so the cause has not been identified. Svet had no idea what to do and said MSI would have to correct it. @Prema has burned thousands of calories on trying to fix it and there is no throttle code left in the firmware. For lack of a better explanation, I think it is an intentionally engineered power handling limitation by MSI that cannot be fixed unless they fix it, and it may require hardware revision. If they don't fix it and leave it like this, 8700K will be even worse. I have given up on the idea of it getting fixed and have resigned myself to the fact that it's only fully functional to 4.7-4.8GHz depending on the workload demand. Obviously, this will be far and away more than enough for playing games and doing work. But, not enough for serious overclocked benching to gain rank on leaderboards.

 

yes, I know this, Mr fox.
The engineered power limiting is EXACTLY that "AC power ID thing". it's the exact same thing.
It's that crappy "Power ID" based on installed video card thing. The Bios itself sets the data and sends it to the EC.
If the EC recognizes it and accepts the profile, great. If it doesn't, it hard caps the CPU via "PECI" power limits. I read some old posts by Unclewebb and Dufus. The Bios has no access to PECI power limits.

Except the 16L1 seems to be "missing" data about the system profile that the BGA systems have.
Therefore the PECI power limits override the Bios power limits forcing 91W at all times.

@Mr. Fox Aaronne found a workaround for you.
It's only good for a few watts however. Maybe 10%.

Use negative IMON OFFSET (negative) of 25000 and enable Imon scaling support.
this will reduce the CPU's reported TDP.

I'm going to send an email to Eurocom to see if they can fix MSI's crappy system.

Proof Negative Imon offset is working:

 

this setting has no effect, the important thing to trick EC (thanks again man for all time did you spent on it with me) is the imon offset

 

I wonder what the "imon scaling support" does?
someone said it has something to do with Intel XTU and RAM timings or BCLK? (some old post I found saying they were unable to change something in XTU without this option being enabled).

Seems the VR settings are what you need, then.

@aaronne please email [email protected] about this PECI power limit issue of 91W
@Mr. Fox even though you have the Evoc version, you do the same thing. With some luck they can remove a bit more of these limits for you. Hopefully there is some good news coming from this.

I worked really hard for you guys. Let's hope we get some results.

Until then, experiment with that negative imon offset of -25000.

Here is where I first got the idea of looking into Imon offsets (Since I have no ability or coding knowledge to modify the EC firmware):

http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/tdp-and-power-limiting-haswell.766743/

This seems to work well for TDP and PECI power limits

This completely FAILS for system power draw detection (via power ID), however. For example on Gt73VR, if I use -31999 Imon offset (I can use this, 16L1 can't go much higher than 25200 without it reversing itself), this reduces CPU power draw reporting from 60W to 42W. But if I exceed 230W of total system power, TDP throttling gets turned on anyway gets confused by the 42W, then shows some bizarre lower value (like 37W). Since the problem here is purely PECI (could be Memory mapped I/O--I'm not skilled enough to know for sure), imon offset works here.

Remember--lowest value wins. Bios uses MSR (highest level), then there's MMIO and PECI. PECI is the lowest level. If PECI sets it to 91W with no override, Bios and MSR power limits get ignored and overriden.

 

Already got 'em in my BIOS. They don't fix anything. I've spend hundreds and hundreds of hours playing with settings. The unlocked BIOS has everything we need it to have. The available settings are the same as the P870DM3 BIOS. Changing settings does nothing to change behavior. Not fixable using settings. End of story. I am not going to burn any more calories on this. It's MSI's problem, not mine. I am just one of the victims of their incompetence with respect to gimped power limits. I will not purchase another MSI product (including desktop components) in the future. Sorry, just being honest. I know your intentions are good and I appreciate them. The ship has already sailed. I am using this machine as a gaming and productivity system because that's what it is made for. It's not made for anything extreme in terms of overclocking.

 

Eurocom told me they would provide a test EC for you, after their engineer looks into this. Did you contact them?

 

I have an open line of communication with @Eurocom Support and talk with them all the time. They already contacted me about this earlier this morning. Maybe MSI will step up to the plate and fix their mess. That would be nice.

I want to reiterate that this is an excellent product that exceeds the needs of gamers and power users. It's not an extreme overclocking benching machine. On that basis (because of my personal interest in overclocking beyond the norm and other personal quirks) I am frustrated by its limitations. This will not affect 99% of the people that own it.

 

So why don't they just debug what's going on?
If it's memory mapped I/O, why can't they fix that?
if it's PECI, well...like...disable it? You know what I'm thinking? You know what I'm thinking.

"yes they can do it but then MSI will get angry just like Ngreedia and then heads will roll..."

I mean look. Denovo copy protection was cracked in a day now on multiple games and it was considered to be uncrackable. Starforce was cracked.
if man makes it, man can break it.
I have nothing better to do with my life than complain about cancer firmware and play videogames. I have no more calories to burn--I'm already extremely skinny
@Papusan

 

How is the noize compared to P775DM3-G?

 

In my opinion the machine is very quiet even with max fans. You hear a low-pitched rushing sounds that is very mild with max fans. Nothing anywhere nearly as loud as max fans on P775DM3 or P870DM3.

 

PECI is disabled, along with PTID and ACPI... all my default settings. Behavior is the same disabled as enabled. Changing BIOS settings has no effect on the power limit.

 

That PECI option does not deal with blocking PECI power limits, however, afaik. I have the exact same problem. Exceed 230W-->CPU throttles regardless of PECI on/off unless powerID is changed to 330W. The "Big Brother" EC can do whatever the hell it wants. But we know from dufus' post that only MMIO and PECI power limits can cause this behavior. And I thought Throttlestop can control MMIO? (God tier Bios=MSR, Throttlestop=MMIO, Crap Tier EC=PECI). Lowest level wins.

BTW Mr Fox, what imon offset did you actually use?
The help setting is completely wrong.
It says the maximum setting is 63999, but this is some generic wrong information.
On GT73VR, -31999 is the highest value. -32000 reverts to zero. -63999 is the same as -31999.
On the 16L1, -25384 is the highest value.

 

Yes, I know other MSI products have similar issues. Probably even more than we know because most users don't push things like we do. They are more interested in playing games, trolling Facebook and Tweeting than trying to do amazing things with overclocking. Unfortunately, ThrottleStop doesn't provide a benefit for this problem. Behavior is the same with or without it.

 

BTW sorry for spamming, but if you tried negative imon offset, it's important not to go too high. Aaronne tested -25000 to -25384. The cutoff values shown in the help are completely wrong.
GT73 goes up to -31999 then -32000 acts the same as 0.

I already pm'd aaronne to ask how far he was able to go after making this change.

 

Could a moderator please move all of the 16L13/MSI related posts in this Clevo thread (posts by me, @aaronne and @Falkentyne that started yesterday) over to this thread?

*** MSI 16L13 (Eurocom Tornado F5)/EVOC 16L-G-1080 15.6" Owner's Lounge ***

This discussion has nothing to do with the P870TM1. Thanks!

 

I posted this in the P870TM1 thread...

Nope. I have not. I don't have to do that on the Clevos, so there is no reason to have to do it on this one. Remember: it has a hardware limitation. If it doesn't throttle it turns off. As I have reported before and @Prema can confirm. I can max out everything and stop the throttling momentarily and the machine abruptly turns off because it cannot handle the extreme power load. That's probably why MSI makes it throttle.

 

\

time to consider it as an option then!

 

Interesting. So that's the same thing I get when I use loadline (AC/DC) and AVX prime 95 at 4.3 ghz.

It shuts off because of the crappy VRM loadline automatic settings btw.
I can make it do it on mine also:

1140mv (manual vcore override), AC loadline=125, DC loadline=125, system shuts off and reboots after a minute. (4.3 ghz avx prime 95 8 threads, small FFT).

1140mv, AC/DC=0 (automatic settings, default) = system SHUTS OFF INSTANTLY. 0 is not "off"--it's some automatic cancer setting which goes wild and varies; seems to be designed for adaptive vcore. Manual just makes power draw go through the roof (If AVX is disabled, prime will draw 20 more watts with "0" than it with it set to 25.

AC/DC=1 seems to be disabled (high vdoop).

1140mv, AC loadline=25, DC load=25, system draws 98W and doesn't shut off.
1140mv, AC/DC=25, 4.4 ghz=core errors out.

Note: 1140mv, 4.5 ghz, AC/DC loadline=25, system is stable with AVX disabled.

Credit goes to @sirgeorge for finding out about this setting.

 

Yes... MSI might be evil or half-assed, but they clearly are not stupid. They probably gimped on purpose so they did not have to address it with stronger hardware. They should have employed their knowledge from building enthusiast-class desktop mainboards instead of pretending they were building another BGA turdbook. I am sure they never dreamed a few guys with this little beast would be trying to push it past 5.0GHz. Clevo probably didn't think so either, but their hardware can handle it after the firmware defects are corrected.

 

BTW promise me something.
If Eurocomm manages to help you with this, please try AC/DC loadline of "25" to see if that helps with the shutoff issue. I'm 95% sure this is caused by automatic AC/DC loadline calibration. Whatever you do, do not go anywhere near the upper limits, ever.

 

Msi has argued with all of the MSIBOOOK owners regarding power gimping and Hybrid functionality, the last half past ten years. This is done on purpose. They knew some would try max out hardware in their laptops.

 

EXACTLY. They are not going to fix it. They did it on purpose. They don't want us running any higher overclock than what works. Maybe not even as much as we can, but too bad... We can, LOL. Also worth noting that RAM settings are not adjustable with stock BIOS and they made it hard to get to the CMOS battery on purpose. All these things tell me we have taken it much further than they ever intended for us to.

 

Is the 16L1 based on the GT72? I've never seen a stock Bios so horribly gimped before until I saw your video. Can't even change the RAM timings or the VR Current Limit. Seriously?
Can you even change the power limits?

I thought the GT73VR stock Bios was trash but at least you can change BASIC RAM timings (not the RAM multiplier unless you unlock), power limits and VR current Limit.
Guess that explains why the 91W power limit is there...MSI intentionally "left it out" of their locked down EC system power detection BS because the stock Bios didn't have it. And programming the EC to accept the power ID's is MOAR CODING WORK. So instead of allowing Bios overrides, they said "91W is more than any user would ever need"..

Remember Bill Gates?

 

At least based on the MSI GT62VR shell. See post #1

 

Yes. And, it's way better than the turdbook version. Still the best 15 inch option on the planet. Shame it has a bad groin wound from it's "loving" creator. Had it not been castrated it would have easily kept up with any single GPU 17-inch Clevo beast in overclocked benching. It's sad inexcusable to have a brick wall thrown up in the middle of the freeway.

With MSI dropping out of the competition as a viable option for an overclocking enthusiast, Clevo is the only option left now. And, that's got its own unique set of unresolved issues that will likely never be addressed. This is why I am sick of notebooks. Too much money to spend on stuff that is broken on purpose. No thanks... no fun any more. Everything is a pain in the ass now.

 

Then leave. I know I'm not the only one here who's sick of your constant whining.

 

LOL... I'm looking to do exactly that. But, get over it. I plan to taunt them forever. I'm not going to pretend engineering incompetence and integrity issues from the notebook OEM/ODM clown posse is OK. People that build stuff that way are losers. Clevo included. Maybe if more people pulled their heads out and started to whine they would get a clue what accountability looks like.

Anyhow, have a nice day. The 'burbs' are nice this time of year.

 

Looking forward to seeing any of your forays into the desktop arenas.

Ha, I don't see it like that, sometimes you gotta fight against the change, nothing wrong with that hey!

 

Thank you. I'll be glad to share.

It's good that some people understand that minimum standards and principles are things worth defending against all odds. Just think how much faster things would get screwed up if none of us did. If there were more of us to punch them in the wallet, we would not have so many issues with crappy notebooks. @Eurocom Support and @Ted@HIDevolution and @Donald@HIDevolution are among the extremely rare examples of technology vendors run by people who are willing to challenge the status quo and push for excellence. That makes them awesome. It makes the rest (all those that do not and just go with the flow) losers.

 

Whoa dude who peed in your cornflakes this morning?
Do you realize the 16L1 has an UNAVOIDABLE 91W TDP power limit?
Because unlike the turdbook versions, MSI did not even include "jokebook" style detection of the CPU via their cancer power limit and hybrid code (via EC register E3). The Bios sets the information to the EC then the EC has to set the power limits. On the jokebook versions, model information is added into the EC via a profile. Then the Bios sets the information based on hardware detection: example (GT73): GTX 1070+6820HK=10, GTX 1080+6820HK=11, GTX 1070+7820HK=90, GTX 1080+7820HK=91

The 1070 versions have a 230W limit, the 1080 has a 330W limit.

Then the EC checks the code in its database. If it matches, it sets the absolute AC power draw limits and allows Bios power limit overrides for that model.

If the AC power draw limit is exceeded, the EC will override the MSR (Bios) power limits and enable TDP cap to limit CPU power draw to 45W to "try" to prevent overloading the PSU (this is BGA code).

A side effect of this system is, 1070 users can modify the register and change it to the 1080 ID. This refreshes multiple EC Registers and changes the max power draw live, to 330W.

If the code is not recognized by the EC as belonging to a preprogrammed model, it will hard cap the CPU TDP to stock TDP at all speeds.

Since 16L1 does not even have power limit overrides in the stock Bios, there isn't even any 7700K model detection in the EC, so it's limited to 91W.
The EC can't cap the videocard.

THAT's the problem.

Now how would you feel if you had a 5 ghz tested unlocked CPU, paid extra for it and your taptop had a 91W limit that even jokebooks can exceed?

If you don't care, maybe it's YOU who should leave.

I just drew 100W before writing this (sustained) on my GT73VR and it didn't even care. I can draw enough power until the VRM's shut off. Yet a DTR with socketed CPU's this functionality was completely omitted!

Yeah I'd be mad by that too.

 

I do not know if this is accurate or not, but it certainly sounds like it could be an explanation for it. And, if it is accurate, fixing it might still be close to impossible for anyone except MSI. Seems like MSI burned way too many calories trying to control and manipulate things on all of their notebooks if it is accurate. And then, to add insult to injury, conveniently forgot to set the appropriate control freak algorithms in place for this vastly superior LGA product.

The fact that they would do this on anything they sell tells me they need to seek professional psychiatric assistance for their control freak problems.

 

also @Mr. Fox
Out of curiosity; what sort of overclock max does this limit the 16L13 to?

I have only gotten up to 5.1 GHz stable. But I haven't tried hard to push it.

Also how can the GT73VR pull more with less clock speed; isn't that just poor chip optimization?

@saturnotaku @Mr. Fox
The rhetoric and hyperbole can come off as childish, and while I agree with the sentiments, I don't think it helps the cause. I mean, it is hard to take seriously from an outside perspective.

 

I agree. I should have ignored it or reported the outburst instead of acknowledging it. It wasn't worth acknowledging, so I am partially to blame.

Anything that exceeds stock TDP for a few seconds throttles. Depending on the BIOS settings, that happens with 4.7 to 4.8GHz. As long as you don't exceed 91-95W it does not throttle.

 

The GT73VR doesn't "pull" more. It just doesn't have a TDP cap. It has a power (AC) cap depending on "product type" (based on brand ID and videocard inserted).
If the product type is "not present" (someone has to disassemble and decompile the firmware in Linux to see the code for this. Only a few people on this forum have that ability to do this), the CPU is capped at product TDP. The 16L1 looks like it does not have this ID in the EC for the system (even though "32" is GTX 1070 and 33 is GTX 1080, this is set by the Bios originally).

The GT73VR will act the exact same way if an unrecognized value is programmed into register E3 in RW Everything (EC) except it gets capped to 45W instead of 91W. And it's updated in real time.

I don't know if the 16L1 has ANY ID's programmed, and even if it DID have IDs from the old GT62 or GT72 leftover, even if you set them and they worked (e.g. TDP becomes unlocked), you would then be stuck with the AC power limits of the "original" system (whether the CPU would throttle afterwards is anyone's guess). I don't have a EC RAM dump (in RWeverything) from a GT72 or GT72S or GT62.

@ThatOldGuy the entire reason for this crap happening is this is MSI's system for preventing people from exceeding AC power limits and for setting targets for hybrid battery power draw. This is part of their system for preventing people from blowing up their AC adapters or their taptops.

 

And if your system and/or AC adapter fails because you overloaded it, you better pony up for the necessary repairs out of your own pocket.

 

Why would I overload my PSU? I have a 330W adapter. You DO know that right?
I can't even draw more than 310W to the system if I try.

AND I Have enough money to buy the Clevo TM1 when it first comes out.

 

I hope that turns out really well. Maybe Clevo will have finally figured out that cancer firmware is not appreciated by anyone.

As far as "overloading" your MSI system, even though you can't because of how they gimped it; man, would it have been so much nicer for them to have made it better, with no gimping and the platform robust enough to handle the most one could ever extract from it, and then some extra for good measure? It seems like the way things are done now, they arbitrarily decide what they want the artificially metered level of performance to be and build everything around that. But, they don't advertise the artificial performance limits, and they should be required to disclose it all. Honesty is always the best policy, but that doesn't count where marketing is concerned... anything goes.

 

I can overload it instantly and force it to power off.
Just requires using the "auto" loadline calibration setting (it defaults to this) with a 4.2+ ghz overclock with AVX prime95 (FMA3).
Powers off after 2 minutes at 4.3 ghz, instantly at 4.5 ghz. Not a CPU power draw problem, but an amps problem through the VRM's. Only pulling 91W. Adaptive vcore.

Auto seems to use a random value between off and the equivalent of 150 AC/DC, and the vcore is reported WRONG on adaptive setting (thanks to sirgeorge for testing this).

However....
Instead of loadline set to "Auto" (the default), I can set it to 25 AC 25 DC, 1155 mV override. pull 102W at 4.3 ghz and it runs just fine. 102W through a BGA slug :/ temps are sky high though.

 

Have benched with +425W from the wall(single 330w). The Delta psu is strong as Hell. Even the Hybrid Trash Msi Gt83 can pull +411 watt from single 330w (+battery boost).

 

I apologize. The way I said it was not clear and could be interpreted more than one way. What I meant by that comment is that you cannot overload the 330W AC adapter with your current product. I was not speaking about the reality of overloading the motherboard due to the inherent flaws in MSI's notebook design. The " man, would it have been so much nicer" part of the post is what I was referring to with respect to the motherboard and firmware engineering defects. Had it been engineered correctly it would never shut down or throttle under any circumstances other than exceeding the Intel fused thermal threshold on the CPU. Had it been done right, it would have been made exactly that way. The reason it turns off is because the settings are so far out of spec the CPU is going into panic mode to protect itself against catastrophic overload. If that did not happen as fast as it does, I have no doubt you would see the throttling resurface if the firmware cancer and/or hardware capacity limits had time to kick in.

 

Sorry if i asked this before but how does the 120hz display compare to say the display on the msi gt73 or gt75?? Is it a good color accurate display?

 

Mr Fox, one quick question about the Vbios.

Can I get it from somewhere from the Eviction machines? They said the power limit changes from 150W to 200W.

It will be a big boost.

 

Yes, I posted it earlier in this very thread. You can download it from there. I do not remember what page it was on, or the date, but the search feature might help you locate it. Search for me as the author of the post. It is a better optimized stock vBIOS and can be flashed using NVFLASH for Windows (unlike a mod, which is only flashable using a hardware programmer).

Edit: Never mind. Search worked perfect. Found it immediately. It is in this post: http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...6-owners-lounge.797128/page-747#post-10580891

Be sure to read the post by @Prema right after that one. If your GPU is already running hot, it's going to run hotter pulling another 50W or more than what it does with the stock vBIOS.

 

Ok that's great found from you. Thanks a lot.

1) Will the overclocking possibilities will increase as well a lot? Now I get 150mhz core and 350mhz memory.

2) Also i can flash the Clevo Vbios and will give me more overclock room? Which one do you recomend?

I will do the cover mod in the bottom before I flash.

Depends on that I'll flash it. I play in 4k and some games need a good boost.

 

I have a question.

I have temp spikes like most of 7700K stock user.At idle cpu temps 55-60 C ( I did not re-delid yet.)
Then system makes automaticly 10-15% utilization around every 90 seconds. Temp goes through around 75-85 degrees and gets lower again to 55 degree.
In games temps are around 75-85 C also.
Main thing that I'm curious about is when these temp spikes happen fans get automaticly higher rpms which is normal. But when they got 1200-3000rpm speed ,some noise like buzzing coming around CPU fan. I'm not sure if it is coil whine or not because sounds appears only these rpms.At higher rpm I cannot hear because of the loud fan. And at 1200- rpm there is not any sound.
Is that about CPU fan problem in near future or coil whine ?

 

Read what Prema said? You need something special for cooling. The key to overclocking Pascal is keeping them as cold as possible... abnormally cold, in fact. They throttle at normal operating temperature. If you do this you will have improved overclocking results with these vBIOS. Clevo 1080 has auxiliary power input like a desktop GPU. Using that vBIOS will place a lot more stress on the MXM slot.

Sounds like Windows background processes running rather than a 7700K issue. I have three 7700K and I have not noticed this behavior. Maybe run it idle for a while with Task Manager open and see if you can tell if that is the case.

Your in-game temps are fine. I think the sound you are hearing is just fan noise. It is not uncommon to get weird sounds at certain RPMs and some of it can be buffeting of air.

 

Well this will be a nice change to task manage, too bad it will not roll out for 8.1 or 7; but someone will be able to adapt it I think.: