*** MSI 16L13 (Eurocom Tornado F5)/EVOC 16L-G-1080 15.6" Owner's Lounge ***

Can you elaborate a bit on your findings ? Genuinely would like to know what you think.

 

@woodzstack

If we're talking about sticks you can buy, the only good laptop sticks are the Kingston 2400MHz (14-14-14-36) and G.Skill 3000MHz (16-18-18-43). Though both are rather bad considering what desktops can get in general.

The 2666MHz and 2800MHz G.Skill & Corsair sticks for laptops are 18-18-18-43, and I consider them worthless. If you can't get the G.Skill to boot at 3000MHz using XMP at all then it sits at 2400MHz 17-17-17-39, which I also consider worthless. Stock 2133MHz 15-15-15-35 would be better than that.

If you're tuning things, then the Kingston 2400MHz is probably your best bet. It can handle 2800MHz with similar timings to its 2400MHz state, and thus it's pretty nice. Getting it to 3000MHz seems to require cl18 which makes it undesirable, but according to @Mr. Fox it's more stable than his G.Skill at the same speed.

If your motherboard does not allow you to adjust RAM timings though... well you're plain screwed. Not only is there terrible RAM for laptops all around, but the motherboards don't seem to have very good IMC.

Honestly? It's the fault of the motherboards as far as I know. Every ASUS Z170-A or X99-A board I've ever told anyone to use has booted with 3200MHz 14-14-14-34 in dual channel and quad channel respectively, without issue. MSI has problems with high speed RAM for X99 and Z170. I don't know about their newest Z170 or their Z270 boards, but I'll assume they haven't bothered. At this point, I find that my recommendations for motherboards is rather narrow as I usually tend to pick good RAM for people. But once a board is good enough, pretty much all of them use the RAM well. To this regard, you could quicker say it's Clevo's and MSI's faults that our RAM has such issues. Especially with Kaby Lake chips in there, which have a stronger basic IMC. The boards and the CPU are both important in this regard. Everyone with a Kaby Lake chip and a good motherboard should handle 3600MHz without fault (at least using the desktop CPUs).

That's what I've found from my research anyway.

 

DDR4 sticks were tested in several types of work with different clock speed. It turned out that the one who gave you most vs stock was 2800MHz. Of course with good timings.

 

Thank you sir !

I agree with the Kingston Hyperx Impact 2400Mhz sticks being decent or viable. Anything else in my own testing has shown to be garbage. People swear by the G.Skill though, so I was also curious about that, but without loading the 3,000Mhz XMP profiles, like you said it's garbage.

In difficult situations like this, with less then perfect IMC's the RAM that does infact work decently well, really shines through and makes you think about all the brands back in the day competing in the desktop markets.

 

That's X99, not Haswell or Z170. X99 is a true enthusiast platform. The lesser chipsets are more like wannabe enthusiast chipsets unless special and deliberate steps are taken to improve upon them by a motherboard manufacturer. By default Intel specs, they're not particularly impressive in a desktop. In a laptop they are impressive, but only because the available alternatives are utter garbage... pure and unadulterated BGA feces, crawling alive with maggots and disease.

That said, these are not too bad. The problem with the Tornado F5 is the stock BIOS is totally worthless and unlocked BIOS doesn't unlock memory voltage. The memory voltage settings are present and accounted for, but they simply don't work. Just as they did not work on the P870DM-G. The DDR4 standard of 1.200V is too low. It needs to be 1.300V and the motherboard only accepts more than 1.200V through XMP. The XMP timings are junk, so manual timings improve performance... but then you're back to 1.200V with no way to increase it. I am almost positive that's why 3200 is not bootable. Even when setting more than 1.200V through XMP, it's questionable if the increased voltage is actually being applied. Just because it shows in the BIOS when XMP is set does not mean it is actually delivering more than 1.200V to the memory slots.

Here is the best I can get from the Tornado F5 and P870DM3 taking them to the ragged edge of memory stability. Latency is still fine and overall not too shabby. Better than 2800 or 2666 or 2400, but not as good as I would like.

Spoiler: P870DM3 - 3200

Spoiler: Tornado F5 - 3000

I agree. That's why laptops, even the best of the best, like the Tornado F5 (after unlocking) and P870DM3, are not really built to pull it off at a component or hardware engineering level like desktop enthusiast motherboards are.

I agree the G.SKILL RAM for laptops is not a high quality product. The Kingston is more stable overclocked to 3000. I would be using it now on the Tornado F5, but for the fact that my Kingston Impact RAM sticks are only 4GB each for a total of 16GB, and the slots on the top of the motherboard are too much of a pain in the ass to access. So, two 16GB G.SKILL 3000 modules on the easy side to access are what I am using. I don't want less than 32GB of RAM.

Got it going again. After applying XMP 3200 I could not get the Tornado F5 resuscitated by disconnecting the CMOS battery. Praise the Lord for socketed BIOS chips! Definitely the only way to fly for me now. That would be standard issue on everything if I had my way. Swapped the chip with Prema BIOS for Svet BIOS, got it to POST, then put the Prema chip back in. Not sure what it choked on with the 3200, but whatever it was, it took a bigger hammer to make it puke. I've had to do the same kind of chip swapping with the Svet BIOS as well after soft-bricking it trying to run 3200 on RAM. Tornado F5 simply doesn't like 3200... again, probably because the BIOS refuses to allow more than 1.200V on the memory... that's not enough memory voltage for 3000, much less 3200. And, I already have tried PMIC VDDQ and PMIC VCCIO maxed out and SA cranked up... doesn't do squat for it with only 1.200V being fed to the sticks.

Yeah... G.SKILL... MEH! Corsair... MEH! The only thing even somewhat good about it is that you can get it in XMP-3000 and XMP-3200. (Which, by the way, are 100% identical memory sticks, other than the XMP profile for 3200 that G.SKILL charges extra for. You're basically paying extra for a 3200 profile that isn't even stable, LOL.) If it was actually "good" it would not be necessary to use manual timings to make it stable. But, it's validated for those higher speeds, so that part is good... I guess. Sort of.

 

I miss the good old RAM discussion days.

I think a few of my customers have gotten or had to get the Prema bios, they shared with me that it fixed the 3,000Mhz XMP issues.
I have a copy of the bios waiting for me, haven't put it on my laptop yet, because I sold the CPU, so I haven't seen it yet personally.
I have a previous version though on my laptop, which has all these menu's unlocked, thanks to SVET and a logo of my avatar here on the forums - was able to OC the CPU though on it, very well.

I have a X9E3 coming to me, and I plan to test it with and without these bioses to show what the difference is.
And to compare before and after what happens when we use the various PSU's available.

We should do one with RAM on these systems. Like not just random benches for throughput, but some game benches to see if it affects FPS.
Whats that bench tool that benches applications start and closing times, I think SiSoftSandra has one too in thier suite...That is where I suspect to see the largest offerings on performance gain on RAM timings.

 

Yeah, @Prema put a ton of time and effort to get it where it is now and did and amazing job on the P870DM3 BIOS. But for his tireless efforts and world-class talent it would not be possible.

 

hahah look at those Memory coolers. Good idea. If it works it works.

Thats where you hidden the CMOS battery ?

I'm still waiting on those lil' extension wires..

 

Yes it works See also @Diversion's SSD HEATSPREADER MOD

 

does anyone got more thn 2666mhz on kingston yet on tornado anyway? what i have check so far, it wont boot anything higher thn 2666mhz no matter the timings. 2666mhz wont boot with 2400mhz timings but need 15-17-17( i think that same as the official kinsgton 2666mhz ram).

 

Your better off with the 2400Mhz at 14-14-14...

 

I would love a video from you about doing this, I'm interested but unfortunately reading for me is not as good as seeing things done in a workshop.

 

Oh yeah I saw that, months ago. I can not recommend adding copper tape because it increases capacitance nearby to the electrical devices under the hood, so small static builds up and it will or can short the entire laptop.

this is why they do not built the entire frames out of conductive metals.

 

i have check all the benchmarks any there is quit a good bumb in every becnh tested so far, there is no latency drop either. i have check some reviews and it seems ddr4 real benefits start from 2800mhz. will love to get there even if it means 1-2 fps increase.

 

some times tests work fine, but when you use the machine yourself you feel the half second before things respond... that happens with odd timings.

 

Hear, hear! It is easy to forget that all the same laws of physics used by RF engineers to design antennas and waveguides for microwave communications also apply to almost every electrical conductor in a modern computer. A circuit board trace isn't just a "wire"; it's also an RF transmission line.

 

I have a 8GB Micron (2133 CL15) + 8GB Kingston (2400 CL14) and they run perfectly in tandem at 2400@13-13-13-36
Never got them to work at 2666 ... managed 25** ...but blue screens and errors

The Kingston was a free upgrade from Eurocom (ordered Micron and bought a stick from ebay while waiting for the laptop to arrive).

 

Maybe its coz micron cant go higher but kingston works perfect @2666 with 15-17-17-36.

 

Its extremly stable with 0 bsod except for some low volt on proc. Doesnt hurt to get more if i can, i have remove the cmos so dont have to remove back every wrong attemp.

 

haha so you mean to say double on the using the wifi antenna's as a heatsink ?

 

Are you saying you permanently run the laptop without the cmos battery ?

 

Here are the timings I use for DDR4-3000. Not all memory modules will overclock this high, just like some crappy CPU and GPU samples do not overclock as well as normal samples... YMMV, especially with the 1.200V limitation being a ball and chain.

 

Sounds like a great idea. If I did not have my extension cord, I'd probably be doing the same thing. Where they put it was super retarded. Seems like someone from Alienware went to work at MSI with that dunderheaded move, LOL. Only an ignoramus or a person that wants to intentionally piss their customers off would do such an idiotic thing. There is no legitimate excuse for that level of unintelligence coming from MSI. They should know better.

 

these are settings to run the 3000 MHz at 3000 MHz or what? Are these the same ones you sent me before bro?

 

haha, but then you;d have to set everything manually everytime you boot.

 

Well, the clock would not be a problem as long as you run NTP. Does Windows even know how to spell NTP?

 

Hi Bro. Yes, for running RAM rated for 3000 at 3000. Should be the same as what I shared before, but depending on when that was, tWTR may have changed. The default is zero. I find using 6 or 7 enhances stability and that was a relatively recent discovery.

May also work for RAM not rated for 3000. My Kingston HyperX Impact 2400 CL14 4GB memory modules handle 3000MHz as well as the G.SKILL rated for 3000... actually better (more stable) than G.SKILL.

The settings should not be lost as long as AC power remains connected when it is turned off. I never run my laptops on battery power, so having the AC adapter connected at all times is the only way I use them. If I needed to unplug to move to another room, I could do that while the machine is powered on and not lose anything.

But, yes, as opposed to the alternative of removing the motherboard over and over again to unplug the CMOS battery, that is little more than a minor inconvenience by comparison. A system that can't boot is a lot more problematic than setting the date and time and other BIOS settings every time you disconnect the AC adapter while the machine is turned off.

 

What does this button do?

 

It resets the EC only. Do that with AC power disconnected. Press and hold it like 20 seconds. It does not clear NVRAM, unfortunately. It would be awesome if it did. I think what it may do is reset some BIOS and EC settings as long as they have not been loaded to NVRAM. Once they have been loaded into NVRAM, they are stuck there... good or bad... then you have to take more drastic measures to force the system crap on itself to reset because whatever is stored in NVRAM is going to override BIOS settings until you can get back into the BIOS to change them to something that works correctly.

I have had very limited success with that resetting unbootable memory settings. I think it has worked for that purpose maybe 2 out of 10 times. It's mostly useful after flashing a BIOS update. After flashing, disconnect the AC adapter and hold the EC reset button down for 20 seconds before re-connecting AC power and turning the machine on for the first time after flashing firmware.

 

Thank you...

*Grabs screwdriver and sets about dismantling laptop to clear NVRAM*

 

No problem, bro.

Probably the main reason that button is there is because the main system battery is under the bottom cover and kind of a pain in the butt to remove for the average user. After firmware flashing all power needs to be removed from the board before turning the machine on again. So, when you press that button with AC power disconnected, it also turns off the main system battery connection at the motherboard. You cannot turn the machine on again using the internal battery after pressing the EC reset switch. You have to connect the AC adapter. So, that saves the hassle of having to take off the bottom cover and physically disconnect the large system battery after a BIOS update.

Newer Clevo laptops have a similar feature, but it is built into the power button instead of a separate button. On a Clevo, when you disconnect the AC adapter after about 15 to 20 seconds the main system battery is automatically disconnected from the motherboard. When you go to power the system on again, you have to either long press the button once or press it normally twice. If you press it normally only once, it reconnects the battery power. You have to do this to enable the USB power sharing as well. You press it a second time to turn the laptop on, of just press once and hold it a little longer than normal.

 

Oh for FN + D on an MSI!

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk

 

I wish that, too. Would be so nice.

 

Yes i do. Since the laptop batery is always connected i dont need cmos to store stuff, and if i have to reset i press the button beneath near sub woofer and it works perfect.

 

Not true, i can completly shutdown and setting sticks. Laptop doesnt dissconnect batery power unless u reset ec with long press power or press the reaet button on nack side. Also i had laptop shutdown for nore thn 3 hours with batery remaining and no AC yet settings sticked.

Finally got 2700mhz, but timing so odd lol atleast now i know i can go abobe 2666mhz, will go for 2800 with one stick now.

Edit: with @Mr. Fox Settings i can get 2800 finally!, thanks alot. 3000mhz wont boot but 2800 still great.

Its almost as easy now for me, just need a pin to press the button and its done.


Edit2: seems like i can go as high as 2800 on 1 stick while other can go not more thn 2666, it boot with 2700 but with both active and not stable .

 

It is fiddly as... something very fiddly, but it is just possible to remove the motherboard without removing the heatsinks. Getting the eDP cable and wifi wires reconnected did push my fat ninja finger skills to the limit though, what a stupid blinkin place to stuff a heatpipe! Ended up resorting to some reverse clamping tweezers and a dentistry tool thingy and lots of cursing.

Job done!

NVRAM cleared

 

Nice!. Did same lol but it was extremly annoying to reconnect without removing heatsink tho

 

Has the g-sync and brightness control been fixed for the 120hz panel with that bios?

 

Not yet, there is no ETA for the fix yet.

 

I came very close to ripping the heatsink off!

 

The GT62VR (chassis that 16L13 is based on) has only two heatpipes on the CPU cooler, so swapping the Wifi card is possible, and motherboard removal can be done much easier, without removing the heatsinks.

 

it wasn't the wifi card which was the real issue, it was the eDP cable. Having to re-attach both is what produced some very colourful language!

 

hahaha I so know what you mean...

 

Oh didn't know that. Yeah I wish they made it easier to swap that M.2 card...

 

had this issue a few times, this is why people send the laptop to me or buy from me, so I can check these things. Though once I happened to overlook testing the webcam and a client got it with that unplugged. man was I embarrassed... well I learnt the hardway and created a list of "to do's" when checking these things.

 

Non-destructive U3+ mod complete. Added a couple of 140mm fans which I am running off a 12v adapter and kept the 3 x 80mm USB powered fans on for a more portable option. Had wondered what to do with the half-full 2TB HDD I used on the P775's, so used one of these and some velcro pads to attach it to the underside of the U3+. The FB4(UK) sits on there quite nicely! And the U3+ sits quite nicely on my laptop tray for sofa use.

 

Greetings, all. I have an XTU "new user" question...

For Turbo Boost Short Power Max, and Turbo Boost Power Max, are these values the total allowed package dissipation (e.g., 65W for a 7700K), or are these the extra power allowed over and above the non-turbo power?

 

lol, looks crazy ! but I bet it works great !

 

Oh those i stick to like 175W or maxed out