MSI notebook order thread: post your orders here

Thank you for your kind words...you make me grin. It was totally fun working with you @syscrusher

 

The build for this laptop confuses me

 

exactly, I prefer stability over higher RAM speeds. Especially when 2 of the RAM slots are under the keyboard requiring a motherboard pull to replace them. I have no time to test and try, I just want something that works

 

@syscrusher

Remember, if you ever want to do DPI Scaling on your screen, rather than using the messed up Windows 10 scaling, use this tool to have it do the Windows 7/8 DPI scaling which is better as it applies to ALL apps not only some apps like the Windows 10 DPI scaling does:

Before you run it though, ensure that you set your Windows 10 DPI scaling back to default 100% then do your DPI scaling from within that app otherwise the Windows 10 DPI Scaling will conflict with the size of the scaling performed from within that app:

• Windows 10 DPI Fix

LOL, quote from Major Geek's Download site:

@Papusan @bloodhawk @TBoneSan @Mr. Fox @Prema @Johnksss@iBUYPOWER @Porter @Donald@HIDevolution @win32asmguy

 

Using that helps a ton. I use it and it fixes the blurry text nonsense.

Why the numb-nuts at Micro$loth have never fixed this crap, along with everything else they seem to be too happy to have screwed up for us, is a mystery that nobody can solve. I think the answer is simple: They don't give a rat's ass about their customers or their product.

 

what surprises me is, Windows 7 Scaling was ok, not perfect but ok, with the recent trend being 4K screens and all, I thought this should bring Windows 10's scaling to the next level, yet, they chose an inferior model to do scaling per app rather than a global scaling so some apps respond well and others ignore it, heck, even Computer Management or Services.msc ignore the scaling and are all blurred our as you can see from the example in the DPI Fix link I posted above
Luckily, the fix is easy, but Windows 10 is not usable without 3rd party tools that's for sure. do a clean insall within 5 mins then spend an hour to fix the OS and remove all spyware, install a start menu + aero glass + fix DPI scaling

 

Ah, thanks for the reminder. I will have to experiment with that method versus the Windows 10 method. The one thing I gained from my 11 days of temporary Razer Blade Pro ownership was that I tested almost 100% of my apps in Windows 10 on a 4K screen.

I have an advantage here, because so much of my work is command line, Microsoft Office 365 (which AFAICT works fine in Win10 scaled mode), and my 3D tools. 3D tools almost by definition do most of their computations in floating point world space, and only the UI layer in screen space, so as a rule they tend to be fairly DPI-neutral. Also, in the 3D modeling world, the quest has always been to get the maximum screen res, and that was true even on the mainframe CAD systems I used in the 1980s. So the people who make CAD software are accustomed to their users running it on high-DPI screens. When the 8K desktop monitors start being widely available, CAD workstations will start using them. Although on a laptop, even I (the king of 4K advocacy!) must concede 8K is well beyond overkill.

What I might do, once I get the machine, is try out your recommendation in a Windows virtual machine running full screen. I have one of those for my Elder Scrolls modding environment (have to, since my current machine is Mac). With a VM, I can do a "snapshot" of the VM state before I make a change, and revert with absolute certainty if I don't like it.

I'm cautious here even though the DPI Scaling tool itself would be an easy remove -- just don't run it after rebooting! -- but one of my legacy tools has a habit of being unbelievably stupid about remembering bogus window positions, sometimes even thinking its position is way outside the visible screen. Mess with the DPI settings, and you can end up with this tool starting up with invisible main window -- and the fix is a bunch of tedious Registry edits. Ugh!

In Linux, configs are in text files that are easy to snapshot and restore. Windows has that whole Registry thing going on. I understand why Microsoft wanted to discourage users from tinkering with settings, but that strategy also disempowers users from fixing problems easily or from backing up affected portions of their config before a change.

Linux: Your gun, your bullet, your foot, your choice.
Windows: Your gun, our bullet, your foot, no choice.
Mac: Our gun, our bullet, your foot, our choice.

 

oh you don't HAVE to do DPI scaling otherwise it would defeat the purpose of you going 4K, you want the max real estate you said and you are fine with the small text. The reason I mentioned this for the time when you do want to do DPI scaling, you know there's a better tool.

also, to uninstall the tool, simply revert it back to default DPI Windows 10 Settings from within the app then reboot, then look for its entry in the startup items and delete it using Autoruns (right click on Autoruns64.exe as admin)

 

Anti-Malware question for you folks who are more Windows experts than I am:

What, if anything, do you run as anti-malware tools on Windows?

I have some tightly-restricted Windows virtual machines, never used for email or web surfing, where I just use Microsoft's built-in Windows Defender. If I get infected on one of these, I have VMware snapshots and can simply revert the disk image.

I also have a physical tower system for gaming. Since that does more in the Internet (though still not email or casual surfing, just gaming-focused things and an occasional YouTube video), I bought a copy of Norton 360 for the machine.

My Norton license allows me to install on more than one personal machine (it's "up to 3" or "up to 5", iirc, and at the moment I'm only using 1), so if I want to put it on my new Windows laptop, I can do so at no additional cost.

Norton seems to protect well, but it loves intrusive popups, even when I have put it in "silent" mode. Sometimes Norton falsely thinks the system is "idle" even when it's under heavy load due to a long-running batch program, and Norton decides that is the perfect time to start an automated disk scan.

So I have Microsoft Windows Defender, but I'm not sure if that's comprehensive enough to be safe, and I have Norton 360, which is cloying nannyware.

I'm not a Windows guru, so I'm curious what other people use and like. When I get my new system, I'm going to have to make a decision about whether I want anything beyond Microsoft Windows Defender. Recommendations, anyone?

 

I do actually scale somewhat, usually about 125% or 150%. I am fine with small text, but not microscopic.

I think you've convinced me to give this tool a try when I get my machine; it sounds pretty non-intrusive. Maybe it will eliminate the need for special compatibility settings on those two legacy programs that misbehave so badly.

 

I suggest you switch to ESET NOD32 Antivirus

In my experience testing all AVs, it is the only AV with 0 false positives, very low system impact, has a great HTTP scanner to block bad connections / malicious downloads and doesn't mess up one's OS

It also has the best PUP blocker that blocks PUP installations from many freeware

See how low its performance impact is (the lower, the better): http://chart.av-comparatives.org/chart1.php?chart=chart4&year=2016&month=10&sort=1

you can install the demo to try it, it is a 30 day demo with 0 nags to buy a license until you want to

 

Thanks for the rec. Interesting that Symantec/Norton isn't even on the list. Does ESET NOD32 AV disable Microsoft's AV as part of its installation?

 

1) Symantec refuses to be part of AV-Comparatives test for some reason which are one of the most trusted tests online and not inflated / paid for like AV-Test, AV-Test's results are surprising to me like they say TrendMicro is light but AV-Comparatives shows that TrendMicro is one of the heaviest. From my experiences, AV-Comparatives is right. I don't know what Symantec is trying to hide but I don't like it that they don't participate in the AV-Comparative tests

2) I have a license for Norton Security collecting dust because:

a) I don't like an AV which shows me features to other stuff that I didn't buy like the online storage backup, if I went for the basic version, that's because it's all I need and I don't need to see buttons not pertaining to my license only to be linked to their site to upgrade if I click on any of those buttons
b) it has a built in maintenance cleanup/defrag tool! I don't want your bloat! leave me alone!
c) It keeps nagging me to install the Chrome toolbar or FF toolbar randomly even I selected don't show again
d) Its identity Safe is a piece of garbage, doesn't properly fill my logins on sites that I've saved before like LastPass does

NOD32 has 0 toolbars, 0 bloatware, 0 nags, 0 anything, it sits there and silently protects you. you don't even need the Internet Security Suite because NOD32 has an HTTP scanner, any bad connection will be blocked and you will be notified about it, let's say a malicious download, it won't even start protecting you from any harm

Also, with NOD32, unlike all other AVs where you either have to login to an online portal and de-register your PC if you wanted to format and reinstall the license, or like Kaspersky which blacklists your license completely after 3 re-installations, NOD32 is flexible, you can install it as many times as you wish on the same PC or as per the license count allows. They have a smart way of checking license abuse by checking the IP from where the updates are being made so you never have to worry

they also have the best support forums amongst any AV which recently have had a forum upgrade to a very not user friendly design where it's hard to see topics or track your own. See: ESET Forum

I don't know if NOD32 auto disables Windows Defender or not as that's the first thing I disable the moment I install Windows.

Disable Windows Defender:

Unless you really want to use a useless anti-virus that is almost as good as nothing (see: AV-TEST ), has annoying definition updates that are delivered through Windows Updates rather than automatically through the app itself like it should, then here is how to disable it.

Firstly, please note that we need to disable its 3 components one by one exiting the settings after each setting change and going back. If you disable all the 3 settings together, Windows may freeze forcing you to do a forced restart or Windows Defender will simply ignore the fact that you just disable it and re-enable itself automatically.

1) Click on the start menu button then click on SETTINGS

2) Click on the Update & Security button

3) Click on Windows Defender from the left pane

4) Disable the components one by one, starting from the bottom (3rd option):



5) Now exit the Update and Security Window and re-enter again then repeat the same steps to disable the 2nd component:



6) Now exit the Update and Security Window and re-enter again then repeat the same steps to disable the 3rd component, after this step, you will notice the Windows Defender app turns the PC Status to RED = ie. Not Protected :





After you do that, do this (you cannot do Step 1-3 though if you have Windows 10 home or single Language as it doesn't have the Group Policy Editor):

1) Press WIN KEY + R to launch the Run Dialogue Box then type gpedit.msc
2) Navigate to Computer Configuration > Administrative Templates > Windows Components > Windows Defender > then double click on Turn off Windows Defender and enable that rule then press Apply then OK to exit
3) Reboot your system
4) Download Autoruns
5) Extract it to a folder
6) Right click on Autoruns64.exe then launch it as Administrator
7) in the filter on the top left, type defender, then disable these three entries by unchecking them (should you need to enable Windows Defender in the future, you need to reselect them and reboot before trying to re-enable Windows Defender)



If you happen to see other Windows Defender entries as shown in the screenshot below, uncheck everything related to Windows Defender that includes EPP which is the right click menu shell extension and scheduled tasks:

 

Virus scanners just increase your risk footprint as some of them are riddled with holes and have deep low level access. When's the last time your virus scanner caught something outside of blocking a URL when browsing?

Sent from a 128th Legion Stormtrooper 6P

 

Interesting. I wonder how that works for multiple systems behind a NAT firewall. In the case of my VMs, some of them are bridged to the physical NIC, while others are NAT within the hypervisor, and then everything is NAT at my physical firewalls (two of them, in series). So some hosts on my network actually traverse three NATs. (I'm waiting for IPv6 to make all of this NAT go away!) They must also use something like the MAC address on the NIC, which can also get interesting in VMs because the MAC is virtual and programmable.

Very useful info; thanks!

It's interesting that AV-TEST gives ESET Smart Security (admittedly, not the same as NOD32) poor marks for performance.

I agree with you about the bloatware comments on Norton, btw. I want it to just STFU and do what I paid for, not annoy me to tell me "there's nothing wrong with your PC right now". Actionable popups only, please!

 

Well, there was that time last year when Norton 360 claimed that a new piece of software I installed was malware. This was very interesting because (1) it was open source and I had examined the code myself, and (2) I happened to know the author personally. So, ummm, no, that's NOT malware. Stop deleting it! At least ASK ME what I want to do!

I hate nannyware.

 

please post this question on the ESET Forum as I am not the best person to respond about this and I will not pretend to know it all

 

Or I could just download the trial and find out for myself.

 

"Be brave....be like t3|-| $y$cru$|-|3R"

1337 for life! w00t w00t

 

I use nothing. Going on several years now, other than a few random tests of security software for a temporary period of time whenever provided to me for testing, (usually gifts from our wonderful Brother @Phoenix,) I don't use anything. I only visit a few web domains most of the time and never frequent the type notorious for hijacking. I know there is some risk, but prudence in internet habits is more important, and I have had very few issues to put up with running naked. I know some folks will want to argue about it, but my personal opinion is that most of the security hype exists as a money-generating machine similar to big pharma in the world of health care scams. Anything that impedes cash flow is going to be anathema and they need us all to clamor and be hyped about security concerns so the dollars can keep pouring in. I also do not allow Micro$lop any liberties to "update" my OSes. They are blocked on multiple fronts and only I get to decide if something gets updated. And, 99% of the time my answer is "no" to Micro$loth updates.

 

The ram slot under the motherboard is not accessible, great design choice from MSi.

 

If you want fast response to new threats Kaspersky is probably the best bet.

 

I know right, even if was under the keyboard but easily removable keyboard like the Clevo I wouldn't mind, but with this design, having to remove the motherboard for a simple RAM upgrade, makes me wary of testing my luck with any other RAM.

I was not liking the start of things when they tried the 2666 MHz and it didn't boot at first, I was watching on Skype. I don't have time to deal with this nonesense so I just went with the stock RAM

And as hmscott said, why not just put 2 RAM slot in the easily accessible panel at the bottom and then try diff. RAM myself? well I can't because I want 64Gb so they have to be installed from the get go

 

ok HIDevolution is creating a teardown video for us as we speak since they are about to install the RAM in the scary part of the laptop

 

Well maybe the single piece keyboard from MSi is what makes the typing experience great?

I think that the clevo's removable keyboard has too much tolerance in build quality and therefore bounces up and down when you type on it. Not really sure but that's one of my theories.

One day I'll try out the P870x's keyboard, hopefully soon.

 

That was a suggestion for you to be able to easily test a variety of new high speed memory - as that seemed to be of interest to you - and then once you found the right SODIMM's to use in all 4 slots, take it to MSI local service and have them pull it apart and put in the long term solution - faster RAM.

I would confirm with HID that the motherboard supports running only from those 2 easy access slots - it may require populating the under the keyboard slots first.

Or, just go with 4x 16GB 2400mhz stock ram from the start

 

Ohhh that makes sense

when that day comes, you will remember me, just try typing 2 sentences quickly and count how many mistakes you make.

Let me give you an example, the below part is NOT going to be corrected, I'm gonna type normally:

Hi Mr. @Papusan,

Is it true that you live udnder a snow flake and you operate your lqaptops from there? hence why your CPIU temps atre always below 60C no matter what overlcock you do?


The key spacingis very cramped and that's why it's so dificult to type

 

the RAM decision is over bro, they are already installing the 2400MHz 64GB Kit

Anything I change, just delays my order more.

 

Wonderful...

But it'll be a great test of how adaptable my/your fingers are.

 

let's see.

PS: I have small hands/girly fingers

 

Care to share what made you decide to go with this unit. Aren't you one of the people here who hated BGA laptops? Sorry if this question was already asked, too lazy to back read!

 

You are getting an $8000+ laptop, I think it's ok to require it be as you want it, and work stably before they ship it. For any detail, not just memory.

How many times do laptop makers delay people for weeks with no good reason?

You have a great reason, you don't need to be shy, it's your $$$$

 

Hm, I don't have a banana to make a measurement of my finger right now.

 

I don't like BGA, I prefer desktop components off-course, but there isn't a laptop that has desktop class CPU / LGA components that has a good keyboard right now. There is the EVOC 16L-G-1080 but that's 15 inches so it won't do......

I never said I hate BGA, I certainly don't prefer it and have always had LGA based laptops in the past......

Regarding your question: see my reply here: http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/evoc-p870dm3-review-by-phoenix.798685/page-17#post-10440302

 

there's nothing to try, we've tried them all. 3000 MHz / 28000 Mhz RAM shows the right speed in the BIOS but doesn't actually run at that speed in Windows. 2666 MHz RAM offers worse performance than the 2400MHz in AIDA64 Cache and Memory Benchmark (maybe because of higher CAS timings) and also the system refused to boot one time wiht it

The build is almost over now

 

For a 15" machine that's probably the best you can get for now.

A catch is that you need to buy a usb c dongle, but that isn't so expensive even for the good ones.

 

Remember there will come new Bios updates with "maybe" better ram support. Learn to dismantle the machine and don't waste money on fully package *low end ram* now. Read my words... One more time!!

Edit: Have you the bench numbers from the Aida64 ram test?

 

I 2nd that - there will come a time when a good fit for fast memory is found.

BTW @Phoenix when the 2800mhz / 3000mhz showed correctly in BIOS, but hwinfo showed wrong speed, did HID run an AIDA memory test with 2800mhz / 3000mhz installed to see what performance it had, or did they not bother because it showed 2400mhz in hwinfo?

 

I was with them, they did, the performance was lower and the RAS CAS Timing were higher

 

Kaspersky has a built in VPN now which is a re-branded Hotspot Shield. Say no to bloatware

Kaspersky has a 3 times activation limit, so if you format / reinstall more than 3 times, say bye bye to your license or good luck waiting on their support to respond to reset the activation count.

Kaspersky is very light now however and pretty decent as well but isn't better than NOD32 and doesn't have a good PUP scanner

As we were speaking I was actually testing the latest Kaspersky Antivirus 2017 and had multiple disconnections on my vpn.ac because of it

Uninstalled right away!

 

I second this. He need to see all bench numbers. Although the ram has same clock speed they can perform different. And higher rated ram will clock better with a upgraded bios who contain better ram functionality.

 

Cool, well then that's it case closed, for now

 

That does not mean I like the results !! Far from!!

 

I would follow up with XoticPC, and ask what's up with the memory listed as optional for the GT73VR @ 3000mhz, has that actually been verified to work reliably?

If it is working reliably then it's a matter of ordering the right sku and getting it swapped.

 

Yeah. Maybe they have a rep here? Search up.

And what ram could be used in the former Gt72? Search up this as well. Blow up a lot of money on fully package low end ram sticks will nag you in the head all time you have this machine!! You will never be fully happy with this situation.

 

Well the previous generation GT72 was a different motherboard chipset, and the memory controller seems updated or affected in the Kabylake and in other builds it has been *better* at supporting even higher speed memory than the previous Skylake MB's.

I was hopeful it was the same in the new CM238 + Kabylake, better at supporting faster memory.

Maybe it's just that MSI needs to update their BIOS, do some tuning or bug fixing - or update it to match Kabylake memory benefits.

Time will tell

 

@Papusan

I just told HIDevolution to order the 64GB (4x16GB) CORSAIR Vengeance DDR4 3000MHz Dual Channel Memory since that's what Xotic PC offers.

Laptop order delayed for another week until they get the RAM

 

Yeah a better choice for Yooou bro. And they should fix the ram configuration if the faster ram doesn't function in the MSIBOOK... See pict in my post http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...rom-hidevolution.800581/page-29#post-10445548

Edit: Always listening on old Papusan