To Mod or Not to Mod

Due to suggestions from forum members I have started this new thread

The posts here can be off-topic and we will see where we go with this

mnem<~~~ Cornfuzzled but not yet muzzled ~~~<<<

 

HI All,
I found this forum when I was searching for a Toughbook after using one at work. I had specific needs involved with using using the machine as a navigation computer in my Jeep. I knew nothing specific about Toughbooks other than it is "tough".

I am not a modder of Toughbooks (other than upgrading my hard drive). That's not why I'm here. I am an information hawk and I have found a lot here. I want to know as much as possible about my computers. I do build my own desktop computers so I'm not totally a dunce with computers. But the things that are being done on this site amazes me.

I had never heard of anyone "hacking" laptops. I thought it was impossible due to space constraints and the special skills needed. Boy, I was wrong. You folks are doing amazing things.

I am skeptical about much of the work being done. For me, the most important factor in owning a Toughbook is reliability. If I'm in the middle of nowhere, I want my navigation system to work-every time-all the time. My life could depend upon it.

From my over 50 years in the electronics industry, I know that working on miniature electronics by folks who are not very specifically skilled is usually harmful to the unit. Reliability suffers. This can be especially true if the working environment is as rough as the trails I usually travel. I'm not willing to subject my Toughbook to this risk. If the machine is being used to do a less critical job, then I guess it's OK. But it's not for me. IOW, my Toughbook is not a hobby. It is a work machine that MUST work. And my CF-29, Windows XP Pro, machine does work-very well. I'm very happy with it. I have no need or desire to mod it.

BTW, I use an externally mounted Garmin, serial interfaced, GPS with an external antenna. From what I have read here, I suspect this scheme performs much better than those built into or hacked into the computer but is not as slick.

Thanks for the knowledge you all have given to me. I hope I can contribute to yours but that will be a challenge.

Sparky

 

Sparky... I'd stack the EM-408 and, either the Sarantel GPS or the Jim Gray active patch antenna, against a Garmin USB antenna any day... But of course... Only if I install it. You are right, if there is a way to do it wrong... Chances are that someone will do it that way. (Not everyone... but some one)

My GPS Toughbooks units are in use by many first responders, fire, police, emergency management, solo sailers, soldiers... You name it. I have seen some VERY poor work on Toughbooks where people have tried gluing broken parts, stripped screws, mis-matched parts, etc... It just shows me the level of their inattention to detail. When I see stripped screws... I already know what I will find.

 

I disagree, The modified cf-29 with em408 or holux gps module couple with geohelix antena can perform much better than the external usb or serial type gps. And may I know where did you get that information, from hear say! people disagree on mod. coz they did not know how to do it properly. I can even compare the cf-29 with mod. em408 with sarantel antena to cf-30 on which the modded cf-29 can acquired more satellite in a second than the cf-30.

I have one customer from USA who has a contract business in surveying and keep odering my setup but unfortunately I have supplied only two unit as he need a cf-29 with 1.6Ghz. He just recently sent an e-mail to me that he need three more with the same setup. He is fully amazed the performance of my gps setup on the unit. He don't want to use the external gps as it is another thing to carry extra periphiral when not on the vehicle. He also mentioned that it required that all cover must be fully close when in use coz of dust debris, and sometime rains on the field and how can you use your toughbook if the usb cover is open on that situation. Anyway, Its still up to the end user.


ohlip

 

HI,
I don't mean to accuse any one specific person concerning workmanship and/or GPS performance. I consider myself a very experienced workman. I also have a practical bent. Besides my long career in the aerospace and defense industries as a design engineer (and a NASA Certified solderer), I have also run a high end hi fi repair shop for 13 years. I am qualified to be skeptical because of some of the work I have seen done by "modders". I know I am not personally skilled enough (but I am better than most) to do the work that some attempt on their Toughbooks. I have read things on this forum that scares the hell out of me. Makes me shake my head. I really think it is irresponsible to encourage the average person to attempt to work on a laptop. It's almost a guarantee that they will screw it up. People really do need to recognize their limitations.

As far as GPS performance is concerned, I think that any first responder is crazy to buy a used Toughbook that has been modified by persons unknown. After all, lives are at stake. The consequence of failure is very high. I recognize that some, but very few, aftermarket modifiers can do both the technical work AND have the necessary physical and practical skills to produce a product that is trust worthy. Again, I'm not aiming these comments at any specific person. So, if you take these comments personally, it is your choice.

You make claims about GPS performance. My response is: "Prove It". Words are cheap. I can claim good performance of my system because of use. It can be proven because the products are well respected and are available to any one who wants to confirm it for themselves. Yours? Who knows? If you want to make me a believer, devise a series of tests that anyone can perform to confirm your claims. This would be the responsible thing to do. Until then, I will consider your words to be old fashoned snake oil.

My information comes from the this forum. I followed the GPS mod threads until I got bored. It seems that many folks had severe problems. I did not read anything that gave me a warm cozy feeling that would lead me away from the path I have chosen. It also seemed that most folks were simply trying to save money. There certainly is a place for that but in critical applications, it is a fool's game.

Cosmic Law Number One: You get what you pay for. Period!
Remember, my Toughbook is not a hobby machine.

Sparky

 

Sparky

One reason why the modifications were done is that the standard performance from the built-in gps units in the cf-28 and cf-29 series was horrible

If I go back and read posts over the last two or three years here I find that the modifications have evolved into a high performing reliable and good looking package

Although I do not have a garmin external gps at hand to compare ,I have used them in the past (GPS-18 serial)and found them to have good performance
I have a cf-29 with the active Sarantel geohelix antenna and and EM408 SirfStar III chipset and a cf-30 with the standard Panasonic optioned gps
I find that they all work great
The Sarantel antenna will normally see more satellites, usualy 25% more ,but I don’t find any issues with the latest Panasonic gps units

You are right it is also about costs
Not everyone here can justify a new cf-30 with built-in gps
And not everyone can afford a modified laptop from Rick or Teo
But the free sharing of information by them has allowed forum readers to do their own mods


Alex

 

Yes... I agree that a point has been made that there have been no "published results" using reliable and verifiable data as to stock GPS, USB GPS and some of our modified GPS setups. This will change here shortly I am sure.

However... This forum has made quite a name for itself BECAUSE we have modified our Toughbooks. If this were just another forum with "driver drivel" discussions only, then where would we be? I certainly wouldn't be here and I doubt 95% of anyone else would. That's all they had 3 years ago! Nobody wants to stick around to tell people how to install a driver.

Sparky... I am still a little astonished that you would be so against the modification of Toughbooks. The original modding of these Toughbooks was not done because of cost savings... It was so we could actually get a usable, reliable signal! My first CF-28 had no wifi and the stock GPS would get three satellites (and ONLY three satellites) if (and only if) I went out and stood in the middle of my street and stayed there for 5-10 minutes! This would obviously not work. It was a terrible system. The EM-408 was chosen after many discussions as was the Sarantel antenna. There was talk of possible trying a different GPS engine at one point but the thought was, "Why mess with a good thing?" I am not aware of anyone that had "Severe problems" unless you are referring to the trial and error of finding the correct pinouts. Since that time... The only problems that I have ever had, relating to GPS systems, were with Panasonic's stock GPS system!

The GPS in the stock CF-29 was much better than the CF-28... By leaps and bounds. But I still wouldn't trust my life to it solely. The CF-30 has the same GPS engine but a much better antenna.

As far as buying a used Toughbook and trusting modifications done to it... That is now my sole livelihood and I take it VERY seriously. So do others here. (But admittedly not all. Some are the "tinkering crowd" and play when they have time and/or money.) One of the companies that I buy my GPS parts from recommended me to a city in New York that was having issues with the reliability of the stock GPS in their NEW CF-29s. Their first responders are directed to "the scene" via software installed on their CF-29 Toughbooks with a stock GPS setup. Seems they can't get a signal while their fire engines and ambulances are still pulled back into their buildings. They wanted to invest in a type of GPS repeater system. It was going to cost them HUGE money to do this. One of the guys told them to call me and discuss options. They sent me one of the CF-29s for me to install GPS into. While it wouldn't get a signal in some of their larger steel buildings... It did in most. The other surprise to them was that my system pulled in more satellites much more quickly and held those satellites reliably once they were acquired. Since then I have customized another two and two more are on the way. When they have all 5 back in house they are to do live testing over several weeks. I have asked to be able to drive up and participate. I know that lives depend on this design, the components and of course, the quality of my installation. I do not take this lightly and it is always on my mind during the installation. After testing, if all goes well... and I think it will, they have 35 more units for me to customize. I never know who may be the end user of my Toughbooks that I sell on ebay. It may be a farmer, rancher, sailer, soldier, yachtsman, adventurer, etc. So I build everyone like MY life would depend on it. I realize that not all modders do this and I have seen, as I said in my last post, some VERY poor examples of "Hacking" a laptop. Perhaps I chose that word unwisely as it tends in itself to describe shoddy work. I modify laptops... Hacking is a term I use to describe finding out how to so something different with what you have on hand. Or how to find another purpose for something... Or unlocking a hidden use, etc.

It seems as if you want to paint everyone here with a broad brush of being crazy to modify a Toughbook. This is, after all, what has made this forum so popular! Far from encouraging "the average person" to modify their laptops... I discourage it! I have for quite a while. Unless you feel you have the necessary skills! It is easy to turn a Toughbook into a 10 pound brick if you do not have the skills. The Toughbooks are very forgiving of the occasional mistep... But stupidity will destroy them. (As it can anything else.) We have all types here though... People who are extremely talented and knowledgeable and love to tinker and modify down to those who try and fail.... And everything in between. I think that is what makes this forum so fun. If I had a dime for all the times "Thank You" has been typed in the forum because someone shared something or helped a person out... I'd be rich!

I am just surprised a former NASA engineer of all people would be against modding something like a Toughbook. I thought you guys were known for the modifications you fabricated? But I guess mods aren't for everyone. I also know there is a huge following that just reads based on interest with no intent of actually doing anything. Sort of like when I read about technical issues in other fields just so I can be familiar with them, not because I want to replicate them myself. I'm just glad we have the members we have and the following that we have. I think it is great!

Sorry for my longwindedness...

In closing I'll thank Andrew for his kind words and for providing us this forum to kick around ideas.

 

Sparky-

I too have had similar experiences with "Novice Technician aftereffects"; in fact, the reason I got involved here is BECAUSE I don't trust ANYONE ELSE to do the job right until I've had a chance to work with them & I can see their handiwork. There are few people in the world I would trust to work on my equipment and most of them are on this board. I have over 20 years experience in the Electronics Repair industry and hold an AAS in Electronics Tech & Engineering; in fact, you may find you've been guided into some airport somewhere running on equipment I helped design & manufacture.

That said:

Notebook computers have long ago shifted from the "boogeyman technology" they once were; as the market has driven prices down, they have in general become much more serviceable. In fact, nowadays the drive is more and more towards component level repairs on these machines; things have changed a lot since the time of the $2200 ENTRY-LEVEL laptop. I can no longer easily justify a $400 MB swap on a machine when the EU can replace it and get a better machine for $600.

I have no concerns whatever with sharing my knowledge here; it is a benefit to all in the long run. We take more than reasonable care, but this forum IS devoted to technician-level technical discussion. If a viewer tries to do a repair they aren't up to even after being warned of the possibility they might let the magic smoke out of their machine, THEY are ultimately responsible.

You will very often see me playing the voice of reason on this forum; I'll see someone asking how to fix something or other on their Toughbook yet the questions they are asking show that they MIGHT just know which end of the soldering iron to hold; in those cases I will tell them bluntly that I don't believe they are ready to perform such repairs and should seek out a skilled technician.

As an ex-Firefighter/First Responder, I will tell you that your concerns over equipment failure are also slightly exaggerated; we always have backups and procedures to get us by in the event something breaks... because no matter how careful you are, sooner or later it WILL BREAK - and of course, at the worst possible time. My small town in NY is well into its 2nd century of firefighting; I can guarantee you there is NO SINGLE PIECE OF EQUIPMENT on our trucks we can't do without.

Now of course I'm not suggesting that you should take your Toughbook with 10 years worth of irreplaceable work to the TV Repair shop recommended by your corner crack addict; but if your livelihood revolves around a single laptop and you DON'T have backups and a spare machine... that is YOUR carelessness.

EDIT:ACCCK! It's ANDREW!!! Run!!! *LOL* But seriously - Thanks for everything!

mnem
I have enough trouble keeping my own world together; don't expect me to protect you from your own stupidity as well.

 

mnem.....I've guessed that Sparky read somewhere here that a fish cutter(filleter) cutting fish all day long on the fish plant modded a toughbook. Lol.. and he can't beleive it.




ohlip

 

Hi
To olip:
No, I did not read that. I'm going on information and observations gained from 45 years in the electronics industry. Based on your casual response to my very reasonable skepticism, I would never buy a modded Toughbook from you. You are right. I don't believe it. And I should not; not without proof.

To Toughbook:
I don't see a broad brush being used here. I acknowleged that there MAY be some skilled modders out there. I just don't know who they are. People can talk a good game but the results may not be so good. Without seeing their work, trying the computers, and having long term experience with them I can't buy in. Faith has very little to do with the technical world. Results count. Documented, repeatable, performance using tests that can be duplicated is also very high on my list. This is nothing more than the scientific method - also very high on my list. I really don't see its application being used here. Worries me to the point where I must bring up these difficult issues.

I need to clear up a misunderstanding. Just because I am a NASA Certified solderer does not imply that I worked for NASA. I have not. I have worked for various technical contractors to NASA. Many companies send personnel to NASA and pay for training. This is my case. Currently, I work at a National Laboratory where we send our techs to NASA for solder training. It's the best in the world. Their standards are those that I hold you to. They are the standards that Panasonic holds to. This type of workmanship is what makes a great product.

Sparky

 

Sparky,

Whether YOU believe what I or anyone else says is of no matter to me. I have absolutely nothing to prove to you. My work and reputation stand on its own. If you don't want to buy a Toughbook from me, believe me... I won't lose any sleep over it. I have people waiting to get them. Forum members here like to modify their Toughbooks. If you do not want to modify YOUR Toughbook because you feel you do not have the skills to do it properly... That is YOUR choice. But I think that to come onto a forum that is known for its modifications, information and general help to the Toughbook community and to tell people that they shouldn't modify their Toughbooks or you doubt the claims of its members makes me wonder if you have come to the correct forum. Obviously the mods we have pioneered work when installed properly and, in most cases, work better than what Panasonic came out with. WE (IE. All who have made the proper modifications) know this and have discussed it at great length. Perhaps this discussion came after a point you became "bored" reading the various threads and posts. It would seem to me that if people were not obtaining superior results... The talk of installation of custom GPS and other modifications would have died out long ago. At the very least... You would see people who actually performed the modifications come back to report that they do not work. I do not recall anyone ever doing that. As it stands now... The only person saying that our modifications either don't work or do not work as claimed is someone who has never even performed the modification!

My apologies to all who read this thread as Tomcat started out with a great post to pat us all on the back for jobs well done. I wouldn't have imagined that it would devolve into a discussion about whether our ideas and modifications would work well enough to even attempt! Alas.... Perhaps we should limit our discussions to installing drivers and (dare I say... gulp...) painting our Toughbooks. This seems the safe thing to do.....

NOT!

I was thinking last night as I was waiting for FIVE MINUTES and TWENTY SEVEN SECONDS for a totally bone stock CF-29 Toughbook with OEM GPS to get a first fix that perhaps a comparison between OEM GPS in the CF-29 to different custom applications might be useful for others. (Sorry for that run-on sentence) I would think that Tomcat, Ohlip, Onirakkiss or myself should start a thread on that discussion and set ground rules for obtaining data. The last thing I would want is someone getting bad karma after reading this thread...

 

Hi Toughbook,
Actually, I think you are over reacting to my comments. As I stated early in this thread, I admire the mod efforts. Please don't ignore this. My point is that such modifications must be done with skill, care and craftsmanship. I believe these qualities have been underdiscussed. I believe they deserve a whole thread on the subject. To be sure, the most skilled modders may do great work. But, In general, most people don't.

As far as me modding my CF-29, it's not going to happen. I'm happy. Does this mean I am dismissed from this forum? I hope not.

Obviously, you are choosing to take my comments personally. You know they were not intended that way. I so stated this several times.

Sparky

 

My point was... With a thread of this topic.... Why would you even bring the matter up in the first place. Your comments are geared more to the actual GPS thread... Not this one. I feel you drew this thread off topic with your original post.

I don't take it personally as in you are challenging MY work personally. You have no idea who I am, what I do, what my capabilities are or the quality of my product. I do however take it personally that you warn people away from doing modifications that are unproven in YOUR eyes. Indeed, they have been proven! Many times over in fact. I prove it every time I modify something that has been discussed here at great length. Have I proven it to you personally? NO. Do I care to? NO... A major point to this whole forum is to experiment with modifying Toughbooks. Several of us have found out that these modifications work much better than stock equipment.

Now... If you want to join us in these modifications and discussions in a positive light... GREAT! If not I would prefer that you not start with the whole "This has not been proven to work" crap... Or the obvious, "Some people here cannot do this type work." In fact our mods HAVE been proven to work... It has just not been proven to YOUR satisfaction... And that is fine with me. The fact that some people here cannot do this type of modification goes without saying. This type of thing is not for everyone. Obviously.

 

So...

Sparky -

Where'd you get your nickname? Were you a radio operator somewhere? Comms officer perhaps? Or did you (like me) have a lifetime habit of the "Tim Taylor Effect" ? *ZZZZZZZZZT*

I will admit... we don't have a lot of the "Scientific Method" here; we do a lot more of the "Empirical Engineering" thing instead. That said, you really shouldn't discount out of hand the number of reports of superior performance seen on this forum; a few you could easily ignore, sure - but part of the "Scientific Method" IS to interview people and collect data - which has been done here in abundance. There is a HUGE pool of information on this forum regarding the various mods discussed and how effective they are; if you did a little data mining, you would find dozens of responses from people who have done the mods and say they work. The scientific method does include anecdotal evidence as valid source material; and the anecdotal evidence here shows that most of the mods not only work, but work better than stock equivalent. That IS valid science. Remember, Edison himself spent most of his time doing "Empirical Engineering"; the trial & error search for "something that works" is at the heart of the scientific process, as is the process of refinement exhibited here in many discussions.

Of COURSE there is great variation in quality of work and attention to detail; that is part of the the human factor. Any individual who reads this forum has the option to be as meticulous or as careless as they see fit in their application of the concepts discussed here; but the concepts are still valid. Also valid is the experience of those here who are very familiar with the product in question, have tried both stock and modified versions, and have reported that those mods are in fact an improvement.

You choose not to mod your hardware; that's fine. But poo-pooing those who do is a bit off-putting, and whether you intended to or not, you kindof have done just that.
Of course, there you have lived up to the nickname... cuz you sure did get the sparks flyin' on this forum.

Anyways -

Welcome to the forum - (In case nobody's said it yet) and don't worry - this will blow over, and I'm sure we can expect good input from someone who is clearly intelligent and knowledgeable in the technical arena. Who knows, maybe you'll discover a better way of doing the stuff we've been doing all along.

mnem
The devil is in the details...

 

Reliability is important to you, and that’s great as the fully rugged Toughbooks seem to last forever
As far as skill and craftsmanship go’s
This forum has members with a variety of skill levels
They are quite proud of modifying their own personal Toughbooks
We do not bash their work, if they foul up and need advice we help them through it

Alex

 

Sparky, since you stated that you have been in the electronics industry for over 45 years, I will assume that you did not start when you were ten and that would also mean that you are a reatively old fart the same as me. Having been a member of this forum for a year or two now, along with one or two other Toughbook forums, I would like to make a couple of points that may or may not have already been stressed. First, to the best of my knowledge, none of the members here are children (at least in the chronological sense...emotionally I have my doubts at times, but that is another discussion). As adults, they have the free will to accept the advice that is given here and act upon it (or not). Now, whether the advice is good or bad is debatable (I think that point has already been discussed/made), but it is still ADVICE. I have never witnessed arm twisting of any type in this forum and those with any sense know that the mods discussed carry risk and the modder assumes ALL that risk. Fortunately, most that read these forums are intelligent enough to know their own capabilities. (Ah yes, Clint Eastwood said it best "Every man has got to know his limitations".) Bottom line, this forum serves a very valuable service to those of us that know just enough to get in deep trouble without the help of others on this forum (many thanks to them...you know who you are!) Second, in addition to the mods (which are really secondary at best in the priorities of this forum) members have the opportunity to have very basic questions answered without the stigma of being a "newbie". The only dumb question is the one unasked, and here we can ask away and get legitimate answers from very knowledgable people (try reading a bit more in depth and you find out for yourself)...for free no less! It also allows members to buy/sell/trade in a market that is specifically designed for them. If even allows those of us trying to help others by providing items for free to those in need. Lastly, Sparky you either need to get out more and unwind...or up the dosage on the meds!

 

Hi! guys, This is my comments with regards to this discussion. Just to clarify for those who did not understand the subject of modding this unit. For better understanding, heh..heh. All of panasonic fully rugged toughbook has a provision on the mbo. for future expansion slot connector like, gps, extra usb, WWAN and etc. Maybe He/or most of the owner are not fully aware of that slot. Mr. Sparky you mentioned that you are using a serial port external Gps, right? Ok! I'm gonna tell you that our gps mod also used an internal serial port allocated on the mbo. but it is inside the unit itself not on the external slot.We followed the shematic and connected the lines to it coresponding terminal. There is nothing wrong with that if it is wrong, you also doing the same thing. We are not changing the original configuration of the unit. We just upgrading the old technology or adding the optional hardware on the slot and we want our unit in just one package. Thats it. If you need an schematic of the CF-29 just ask and we are happy to provide you so that you will fully understand to what we doing here. We are not harming the unit. We are just EXPANDING its capabilities. Do you understand now, Sir! Thank you.

Also we did not encourage all member here to mod there unit if they feel they can't and advice them to do by somebody who is capable. You mentioned that you have 45 years experience on soldering if I am not mistaken, why don't you teach us instead of critiz..ng our effort. Me! I don't beleive it to you either.


P S. I don't care If you beleive it or not and I am not selling my stuff to you in anyway.


ohlip

I love this forum.

 

Bump
Lets keep this going lol

Alex

 

*Bump* back, and a side of slaw...

mnem<~~~ SLIGHTLY OT ~~~<<<

 

Nothing but good things to say from me about this forum!

However, was I wrong to put an Edelbrock 600cfm carb and performer intake on my '65 Mustang? If that was wrong, then what about the headers and nine inch?

Am I breaking laws by trying to make it better (or personalise it)?

 

Rob, Alex, Teo and of course, the unflappable Mnem,

I sent this message to Rick thinking this thread was over, but since Alex decided to start this one anew, I felt it appropriate to post this here. I think it speaks for itself.

Since I have joined both this and Rob's forums, I have grown to know all of you not only as moderators/subject matter experts, but as personal friends. We have (in most cases) never had the opportunity to meet (yet!), but we still exchange more than just ideas and advice on Toughbooks. In some respects we probably have told people on this forum (or Rob's) more than we have our friends with which we have daily contact. So when individuals (outside the forum or not), start to attack the personal integrity or livelihood of my friends, I cannot sit idly by and not react, and believe me, my reply was very constrained in comparison to what I would have liked to have said. Life is far to short, and much too fragile, to become annoyed with such petty matters. Knowing what I do and what I have learned about them, I would not hesitate to trust my life and livelihood to the gentlemen I have mentioned. Again, thanks for your advice and friendship and I hope we are able to meet someday, preferably at that big get together in Vegas we have all discussed!

 

Hey, how did Rob get his name first in line

If it happens that another thread is started on the get together
If I gets moved by a Mod to general off topic, I will move it back here where it belongs

Alex

 

Alex, you know as a fellow cat lover I will always have a special place in my heart for you! (And yes guys, a purely platonic/heterosexual place!) It was only because I had been corresponding with him on another matter. My gratitude is the same for all!

BTW, I am at work defending our country, what are you doing up at this hour?

 

I am loading software in a cf-29 mk-4
And preparing a cf-30 for an aftermarket gps instalation that Teo is working on for me
I am a nite-owl so I will be up for 2 more hours ,2:30 pacific

Alex

 

Karma16/Sparky

I have not been here long at all. But from what I have read and experienced, you are preaching to the wrong crowd. Time to move on if you don't like and can't handle what we do in this forum...

 

Here is an example of a gps mod that was done by one of our forum members for me
These Toughbooks are my personal units
9 sats showing on the cf-30 on the left using the standard Panasonic gps
11 sats showing on the cf-29 on the right using a sarantel antenna and a 20 Channel EM-408 SiRF III Receiver


Picture 3 was taken a few minutes later and on the right hand side is the cf-30 with standard gps showing 8 sats
On the left hand cf-30 an external Gamin receiver gps 17hvs is hooked up to serial com 1 showing 10 sats

Conclusion

The Modified Toughbook always has more satellites in view and locked that the others
8 sats on average on the stock cf-30, 10 for the Garmin external and 11 for the Modified
Winner Modified with approximately 10% more than the external Garmin and 20% more than the stock cf-30 gps
This difference is not an issue as they all have enough to provide a reliable fix

Signal strength measurements
Watching all three antenna combinations over a period of 5 minutes
The lowest was the stock cf-30 gps on average the strength was showing at 37
Next the modified Toughbook averaged at a signal strength of 39
The best was achieved with the external Garmin having average strength of 44
Winner Garmin with 12% better signal strength than the Modified ,and 16% better than the stock cf-30 gps
Again a non issue as they all had good strong locks on enough satellites to maintain a good fix


I am happy with the reception on both units, I have had no issues with either laptop as I reported on post #6



Alex

 

HI olip and all others that seem to think I am the comming of the Anti-Christ,

Thanks for your explanation. I really did not understand exactly what you all are doing. I also did not understand that you and others were actually selling their modded Toughbooks. I now understand that my comments actually threatened their livelihood. I certainly did not mean to do that. My comments were aimed in much more general directions.

Since my CF-29 is not GPS capable, and not needed, I had no reference point. I originally used my Garmin GPS with a Dell Latitude laptop. I was very happy with the GPS performance but the computer just fell apart from the trail abuse. Thus, I bought a used Toughbook. I did not low ball the purchase. My CF-29 was pristine with all the plug-in accessories including a floppy drive, the CD/DVD burner, a new secondary battery, and a touch screen. This was a good decision. This machine works perfectly for my application. As I said before, you get what you pay for. And I paid.

To be clear, I am a workmanship freak for very good reasons. Experiencing work done by others has driven me to this view. In hi fi, when I had my repair shop, I have seen a lot of horrible work done by folks that should know better. Even in the electronics industry I have seen solder that appeared to be applied by a glue gun. Never let an engineer handle a soldering iron, except me, of course! I have seen stripped threads, stripped screw heads, missing parts, burnt wire, broken connectors. I have seen it all. Scary, for sure. All done by people who had no business attempting the work.

Laptop computers are far more difficult to work on than hi fi equipment. The closest audio equivalent may be portable DAT machines which are daunting to work on. You really have to know what you are doing and I know most people don't. But even the top workers would hesitate with a laptop. Just moving boards, flexing cables, pushing and shoving parts, disconnecting and connecting, all of which are required to work on such a tight package, pose a danger to the product. You know this. You have probably made these same mistakes no matter how skilled you are. I have not even mentioned the specialized soldering skills required by miniature connectors and surface mount IC's. I will not work on surface mount IC's. Experience has taught me that I'm not good enough. Except for people that do it for a living, and are properly trained, no one is good enough.

All of this inspired my comments. I don't know how good you and the others are. You may be great. And, you may not be so good. I have no way to know. As a responsible engineer, forum member, and human being, I felt that someone needed to state the dangers such work entailed.

Someone mentioned that I should teach and not criticize. I won't do that especially over a forum. I will not encourage the inexperienced to do work they are not qualified to do. It's hard enough to teach these specialized skills in person (I have done this). On a forum it is impossible.

Actually, and underline this, I do not view my comments as criticism. I see them as warnings.

I'm very sorry I may have upset some people but it had to be said.

And finally, as much as you hate to admit it, this discussion has been good for you. You have had the chance to state your views, defend your work, advertise your products, justify this forum, and we got to know each other better. This is good. You are welcome. :wink:

Sparky

 

Sparky -

Anti-Christ? Hardly... Oscar the Grouch more like... :wink:

I think you've underestimated the amount of time spent on this forum warning others about the very concerns you speak of; no, we don't say "Don't try this at home, kids" every other post... because we DO want those who feel comfortable doing it to try it for themselves... YES, they ARE a relative few, but those people ARE the ones we're talking to.:GEEK:

I've been an Engineer, Repair Tech, MOD-ifier and Warranty-Voider since the Carter administration; I'm experienced in all those specialized forms of soldering, and I have the specialized equipment to do it. SMD technology is not that hard once you learn how; like anything, it is a SKILL that one CAN acquire. I would MUCH rather do SMD rework any day than point-to-point.

Don't confuse this forum with all those aimed at the general public; while we do welcome ALL Toughbook enthusiasts, we are mostly aimed at Technician-level discussion, BY technicians, FOR technicians... and beyond the many warnings issued in the FAQs and MUST-READ posts at the top of the forum, we operate as if those we are speaking to understand the tech involved and we make no apologies for that.

mnem<~~~ Charter member of the Crispy Fingers Club ~~~<<<

 

The type of workmanship that Panasonic holds up to allows for the type of modifications that are done in this forum to be done without comprimising the durability and reliability of the machine. As a first responder for over 21 years I think that I am more than qualified to decide what I will or won't trust my life to. Just because a product is no longer subject to a factory warranty makes it no less prone to failure than if it is under warranty.

 

HI,
Nor should you apologize. I wish you guys had a better memory. My very first post in this thread expressed my admiration for the work you are doing. Do I need to repeat it for about the forth time? Why are you ignoring it? I know you are sympathetic to at least some of my comments. If you are as experienced as you claim then you know I am expressing truth. Or have you never worked with the public? I think you have. I think that you all are simply unwilling to face skepticism from one your own. It's a natural reaction and I expected it.

Grouch??? Maybe. But, in truth, probably not. You were just surprised that I decided to interrupt your mutual admiration society with valid and hard questions. I do feel better about the whole process. I now know you all better.

You really do need to quantify the performance of your GPS mods. I don't think it will be easy but it needs to be done. It is the professional thing to do. And you should be curious. I am.

Concerning surface mount, I find my eyes and muscle control are lacking for that type of work due to age. Generally, I am very good with small work but surface mount work is not in my future. It is certainly a fascinating technology.

Sparky

 

Hi,
I think you misunderstand. This thread has nothing to do with warranties. It has not even been mentioned. It has to do with work being done by non-Panasonic workers using technology not blessed by them. What do you think Panasonic's opinion would be? Since you are totally willing to trust their products, are you also equally willing to totally trust their opinion for the work being done here no matter what its quality may be?

My bet is Panasonic would not encourage this work. Before you say it, Panasonic's motives may be suspect. But, how do you know?

Just asking.

Sparky

 

HI Tom,
Good!! We are now getting information we can sink our teeth into. That's pretty impressive performance. However, it may not do me much good because:
1. I already know where I live (most of time!!). Don't need GPS for that, sitting on a desk.
2. Performance in a moving vehicle is the parameter I need to know. For example, will the GPS receiver consistently lock on to the current position without dropping out due to a lot of factors.
3. Since I always use real time vehicle tracking superimposed on a topo map, I need to know how that works. There are many variables that are mostly a function of the GPS receiver and its software interfaced to the mapping software running in the computer.
4. How accurately will the receiver actually pin point the ground positiion? Often, this is very important to a treker, hiker or vehicle explorer.
5. How the GPS perform in a vehicle which imposes all sorts of signal degrading elements into the equation. For example, ignition noise and steel tops and supports. I don't think your test offers enough information to make assumptions about these factors.

In other words, sat lock, while very important, is only part of the story. But, as a preliminary result, it sounds good. Thanks.

Sparky

 

Oh ye of little faith in our forum members... Good for us huh? Well... I guess root canal is good for us to so we know that our nerves still work...

I have known many of the people here for years...I've met a few, spoken on the phone to several and PMed and emailed with a lot. The only person I have gotten to know better here Sparky is you. While everyone is entitled to their views I still find it strange that you feel compelled to "warn people" that our methods are unsound and our members inexperienced. This on a forum whose main attraction are the modifications we have discussed and made public. You definitely picked the wrong thread! (Originally) I guess I may feel different if even occasionally we had someone who posted about trying our mods and they caught their house on fire or blew up their cat (Sorry kitty fans)... But I do not recall this ever happening even once. Sure people sometimes have a hard time diagnosing issues but hey.... That's life. Happens to me too sometimes.

I feel no need to defend my work... As I stated earlier. My views have been stated over a period of years.... And I do not advertise my products on this forum... I never have and I never will. I really don't like for anyone to "advertise" within this forum as I feel that it is here for helping others as well as an exchange of ideas ONLY. (I'm talking commercial advertising.) Many of my customers have joined as members but do not try to solicit business for me. I may discuss a certain customer or system build from time to time but I do not put links to my sales or web pages. I would prefer that others do not either.

We are here to promote ideas... Not to discourage people.

 

I mean no offense to you at all, but since Panasonic is no longer supporting my Toughbooks I don't care what they think and since they are no longer supporting them I doubt seriously if they care what I do with it. Remember innovation does not always have to come from a corporate or government clean room. There is a lot of good information here, use what you are comfortable with and welcome to the forum.

 

Skepticism is one thing... but you are talking in some cases to people who have made a living out of the work discussed here, and have literally hundreds of satisfied customers; yet, even though their livelihoods revolve around that hard-earned knowledge they still choose to share it here, freely and without reserve. :GEEK:

That is more than adequate empirical evidence for most of us mere tinkerers; it's not like we're trying to sell a "do-it-yourself" kit here. We've developed a collection of parts as a recommended list, based on our own experience... we do not make any profit from this discussion (unless someone ASKS us to do some work for them), therefore we never really have felt a need to do any kind of benchmarking. Actually, until YOU raised the point, I don't believe the thought ever crossed our minds.

I guess my point is this:

WHY do we have to quantify the performance of these mods? We're not here to SELL them... this is NOT a commercial website. All we are is a group of above-average tinkerers who have a common interest - Toughbooks.

WE know the tech works, either by experience or derivation from our own experience. I personally have NEVER completed one of the GPS mods that worry you so much; yet from my own experience as an Engineer and the other numerous mods I HAVE done, I have no trouble believing that they perform as described.

The people who make the GPS engines we use and the antennas we use post more than adequate benchmarking reference to convince me; why are you so hard to convince? Do you REALLY believe that the fact of connecting off-the-shelf components to an INTERNAL serial port rather than an EXTERNAL one is going to make any difference in their performance?

If YOU believe that benchmarking is so important, why don't YOU try it? Any one of these mods can be mocked-up and tested from an external port; there is NO NEED to crack a cover on your Toughbook.

BTW - Oscar totally rocks. See my 2nd favorite T-Shirt below... :wink:

mnem
You want pressure? Try sending a boatload of transformers and PCBs back to the manufacturer... while it's still in the middle of the Pacific.

 

Actually we have... We have just never started a formal thread on it. Early on we posted data as to signal strength and number of satellites acquired. I just never really felt the need to "publish comparative data" since everyone else was pretty much obtaining the same results I was. The system is not quite accurate enough to fly a Pretator over in the sand box but with IGuidance and Streets & Trips... It will actually show me on my deck. (The area where my deck is... I haven't published my deck either.)

Sparky does raise a valid point though with reference to the quality of work that various people may perform. Everyone is different and I am sure their installations, to some degree, are as well. Some people really don't care what things look like... As long as it works. Personally... I like to make things appear as stock as possible. I use as many stock parts as possible incorporated into the installation. I have yet to have a dissatisfied customer.

 

We are not “hackers”. We do not take apart and rebuild the laptops altering their original specifications or durability. We simply modify the existing hardware setup to one that suits our needs. No different than you buying a larger hat for your obviously big head. 

As you state later, you do NOT have GPS installed on your laptop, so what navigation system are you referring to? As for the reliability of the laptop itself, take that up with Panasonic. We don’t make them, we make them better.

Yet MANY first responders DO use toughbooks, and DO use AFTERMARKET solutions, just as we do. It is PRECISELY the fact that LIVES ARE at stake that they ensure they have a reliable system. You seem to think again that we are splicing into the guts of these laptops and melding in parts. Not so.

You say you’ve been in the industry 45 years and you want proof from us? Words are cheap my friend. Prove to us that you deserve proof, then we will talk. If you are SO interested in the results, and the risks involved, then do the mod yourself and run your own tests. Where do you come off as being the Judge of what we are doing?

By your own admittance, you don’t even know what it is that is being done. You got sooo bored with the thread that you stopped reading. Yah, really shows how much you care! You couldn’t even finish till the end and have your questions answered could you. And I should respect your opinion why? And you’ve been doing this for 45 YEARS!!! And couldn’t even grasp where the conversation was going. Way to go there chief. You must have been one of the lowest bidders for soldering, huh. Of course it seemed like we were trying to save money. These mods were designed for the highest performance, at the lowest cost. But if you had read the threads, you would have known that.

Real mature response. You expect your 45 YEARS to just WOW us into believing you? I’ve known people doing the same job ALL their life and are pitiful at it, and known people who are naturals. Just what is your point here? You wanted it known that you can slam an individual’s reputation and morale by stating you would “never buy a toughbook” from them? “should not, not without proof”, Man, you are so arrogant and full of yourself in that statement I wouldn’t show you proof even if I could!

Wow, what a back turn from your previous statements; “Never buy a toughbook”; “should not, not without proof”. You have a very deranged way of showing admiration. You are so back-and-forth, I question your mental capacity. “such modifications must be done with skill, blah blah blah”. What you mean to say, is that they should be done by YOU. But you forget; “I had never heard of anyone "hacking" laptops. I thought it was impossible due to space constraints and the special skills needed. Boy, I was wrong.” And, you are wrong again. To have someone claim to be sooo smart, yet be lacking soo much common sense is frightening.

Perhaps the root cause of your ignorance. From your perspective… We do not see it as such. It could also be your ignorance of modifying versus “hacking”. We are modifiers, not hackers.

No you didn’t. You wanted to fluff your own feathers and try to bully your “expertise” into the mix. If you really cared that much, you would have finished reading the threads. You would have asked critical questions. You would have discussed concerns. You did none of this. You attacked.

And you are the savior because….

Again, no it didn’t. You contributed nothing. That’s 20 minutes of my life I will never get back,.

Do you think Nissan cares that I put an aftermarket stereo in my car? Or Gateway cares that I replaced the DVD ROM with a BlueRay? As a matter of fact and point, most “Factory Authorized” repair facilities do NOT employ PANASONIC personnel. What do you say to them? Quit trying to be right, and quit acting like a savior. Your not. Your just not.

 

Easy.... Easy... We are rapidly heading toward thread closure....

 

Originally Posted by mnementh
...therefore we never really have felt a need to do any kind of benchmarking. Actually, until YOU raised the point, I don't believe the thought ever crossed our minds.

Actually, Rick... it was the "Comparative Analysis" part I was talking about. Test results are one thing; as I did with my experiments on the WiFi antenna hack. I did NOT , however, do much real comparative analysis.

That is, after all, what the term means - setting a Benchmark to compare other like things against. We haven't done that, nor did we really feel the need...

And why WOULD we test for results from an improperly assembled mod?

mnem
Comparative Misanthropism...

 

2)+3) I am happy with my setup in the car with Garmin Mapsource software , but that’s a subjective opinion nothing that I can put down as a stat
It stays on the correct lane and is accurate but the maps for your area it might not be as accurate as for where i am located
4)The SiRF star III chipset is better at holding a signal in low signal areas, like under dense tree cover or where you can’t see a lot of the sky clearly, like when you are traveling in a downtown area where there are a lot of sky scrapers. That’s why we are using them
There is some new modules out that use a different chipset (MTK type) that have on paper even better specs
The price is a little cheaper than the SiRF star III chipset that is commonly used here so I am sure that in time one of the members will buy one and report the results
For the time being the popular SiRF star III chipset is the quality standard that others compare against
5) Good point, that’s for each person to decide on their own situation
No point in benchmarking this as its absolutely non repeatable results from one vehicle to another

Anyway back to my main point
I am happy with the reception on
The external Garmin
The stock cf-30 gps
The modified cf-29



Alex

 

HI Toughbook,
I totally accept your claim that you, or others do not use this forum to advertise your work. That's proven by the fact that I was not aware that your mods are for sale. I definitely think you are taking the high road. I respect that.

In a way it's too bad that you are not are more aggresive with your marketing. I seems that you and the others have a valid and valuable product to offer. But I understand why you don't in order to maintain the integrety of the forum.

I don't in any way apologize for my comments. Many things have come to the surface that have helped me understand your work. Maybe it has helped others as well. And I remain impressed. I know you don't care if I am impressed but I do. I think far too many forums go to great ends to avoid all forms of discontent. Some things just can't be adequately discussed without disturbing some feathers. Is this bad or counterproductive? I don't think so. This forum will continue to be a valuable resource and prosper in spite of (or, maybe, aided by?) this interesting discussion. And that is good.

Sparky

 

Well then, this is certainly an interesting thread! Just back from 6500 miles in the West where my MK4 CF-18 performed flawlessly in its home made dash mount with the old reliable BU-353 plugged into it. The factory installed GPS was tested a few times and found to be slightly better than useless.
Karma, you have mentioned bench mark tests, and I have done a couple.
First, I use a very accurate DGPS in my work which always gives me submeter accuracy. Compared to CF-28 with the now standard "Toughbook Forum Aftermarket GPS", the Toughbook consistently delivered positions within 10-12' of the CSI Vector Pro, many Toughbooks have delivered near submeter accuracy with for me the BU-353. I have tested my CF-30 in the only way I can test a GPS with extreme accuracy, I put it on a USGS benchmark and compared the returned position to the published location of the benchmark. Again near submeter accuracy with the BU-353. I really don't use internal GPS much as it doesn't fit my needs for a lot of reasons I have discussed here before, but certainly not because there is any question in my mind that the fine work published here by Toughbook, Modly, Ohlip, Mnem, Tomcat, and many others is of the highest order or that the actual work is beyond the capabilities of many forum members.
If you want to "benchmark" your own GPS try the following. Download "VisualGPS"-open just the survey window-fire up the GPS-go away for a while.
When you look at the screen a little later there will be a plot of the "drift" in your position as reported by the GPS. This plot is a truly accurate graphic depiction of any variations in the lock your GPS has on position, but it will not tell you how accurate any of the reported positions are in the real world, you need to do the physical benchmark trick for that. Do not form any opinions about accuracy based on locations observed on electronic maps or charts, you have no way of knowing how accurately the vector or raster image is tied in by the manufacturer.
CAP
Oh yeah, I've been to London to visit the Queen.

 

DEWED! SCHWEET! So... are you like "Sir Dogfish" now?



mnem
*Polishes his cutlass just in case...*

 

Sir Dogfish of Canterbury



<Pirates used Cutlasses... You want a RAPIER!>
<<Not just rapier wit either! D)>>

 

Ummm.... you better tell my granddad that... and the US Navy. We had them well into WWII, and we still use them as part of one of the Officers' uniforms...

I really prefer a big ol' Claymore, but they're a bit on the clumsy side in my Saturn. Besides which...

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

mnem
Mooring at PirateBay...

 

I was thinking of d'Artagnan and his buds...

< Athos: To die among friends. Can a man ask more? Can the world offer less? Who wants to live 'til the last bottle is empty? It's all for one, d'Artagnan, and one for all.>

 

Porthos: WOOOOOF!
Wait a minute... wrong Porthos...

It's Porthos the Pirate! AAAAH! *SPLASH*
D'Artagnan: Pirate?
Porthos: I told you I was famous.

mnem
I HATE cannonballs!

 

I just have to add that I find all the modding threads very informative and although I was once a Sony engineer (the less said about that the better), I'm far too lazy to buy a CF-28 or 29 and try out any of the mods even though I really want to. I think I'd rather buy one eventually from one of you guys than have to spend hours sweating like a beast and wondering what I'm going to screw up next.

One thing I noticed among all this "drama" that amused me was that Sparky has worked in electronics for first 50 and then 45 years and also doesn't trust any of the mods because he says, "If I'm in the middle of nowhere, I want my navigation system to work-every time-all the time. My life could depend upon it." and then goes on to say, "I already know where I live (most of time!!). Don't need GPS for that, sitting on a desk."

Can someone please enlighten me into just how life threatening it can be to use a modded Toughbook on your desk? Other than someone picking a Toughbook up and smacking me round the head with it, I feel no immediate threat from the resoldered speaker wires in mine...

 

HI,
Well, the truth is that the length of my career is a little hard to define and I loose track of it too. I started when I was 11 helping at a TV repair shop. But my first real paying electronics job (getting a real pay check and not getting paid money out of the owners pocket) was at 17 wiring vacumn tube chassis. And my design career didn't start until I was 22. So, take your pick.

Sorry for the confusion.

Sparky

 

Dr. Blood... I think Karma goes out into the desert with his 4X4... So he needs GPS for trail use. You certainly don't want to end up driving off a cliff! (Or going down the wrong trail)

You need to know how to get to that next watering hole!