A Thread For Clevo/Sager Notebook Recall News and Questions.

hi
Can anyone post the link to bios upgrade for Clevo m765s?
I can´t get access to the ftp-server.

 

I don't think you can just "remove ports". I think it's hard wired to each port in the motherboard.

 

Intel's partners can resume shipping Sandy Bridge laptops... if they agree to a workaround -- Engadget
Hmm, a bit late. I was hoping they would have done this when they issued the recall. When I asked Malibal the day this happened if I could get my laptop since I only have a single SSD and an optical drive and will never be adding more storage they said no, but now with this information I'm curious. I don't see it as a defective chip. I see it as a working chip with features turned off that was never even going to use.

 

First, read post #148 of this thread.

Second, the NP8170 ODD and eSATA external port use 2 of the 4 flawed SATA 3.0gps addresses from the Cougar Point I/O support chip. The two HDD bays use the remaining 2 SATA 6.0gps addresses and are unaffected. There is no prudent workaround for this except to replace the current motherboard with a corrected one.

Even if there were some other workaround like programming a bios update to alter the I/O addresses, it would likely take a longer time to design and implement than simply waiting for the corrected Intel manufactured chipsets to be distributed, but at that point you would not have the full product specifications designed for the unit or price. That's like the proverbial "opening a can of worms" type of potential issue that would last the entire life of the machine.

No one should ever convince themselves that because they don't use a particular technology like an eSATA port or an available 2nd HDD today, they definitely won't use it one or two years down the road. You can't possibly know what your technology patterns or needs will be in the future, so it's best not to think it's okay to limit yourself in the long-term for the sake of the short-term. Succumbing to the whim of instant gratification is the quickest onramp to the highway of regret.

 

Fixed Intel chip to start shipping mid-Feb!

CNET News link

Some further comments on this by paladin44: NBR Link

 

Liked that line!!

 

Ah missed that. Might as well just wait until March then. It doesn't sound like they want to go through the hassle anyway.

I can guarantee you that I won't use eSata ever. I'll use USB 3.0 to an external hard drive before installing another HD. You're really overthinking this. It's like saying a laptop that doesn't have bluetooth or blu-ray is short-sighted. They're just not necessary.

 

It doesn't matter. You can't ship a product with a known defect whether a user uses it or not. It's called liability. In the case of products that can only physically utilize two ports, putting both on ports 0 & 1 is ok. You can never physically attach anything to ports 2-5 then.

 

Like Mr. Stratton said, this is the exact ETA we've always had. We're still looking at mid-March for the notebooks to resume shipping.

 

Somewhat conflicting statements there, which could confuse some people.

Regardless, a defective (or flawed) product CAN indeed be sold (and shipped) so long as the defect (or flaw) is disclosed to the buyer of said product, and the buyer is okay with that. Intel is doing this very thing with their 1st round of chipsets.

 

Well, what I was saying is that they can't ship a significantly flawed product if the machine uses that feature in any way shape or form, not even if they disclose it. If it can't be utilized by the machine as built (i.e. only uses ports 0&1) it doesn't matter if ports 2-5 work at all.

I mean a new car dealer can't say they'll sell you a car as brand new if one of the engine's cylinders doesn't fire, even if they do disclose it. They have to sell it as damaged goods, usually at significantly reduced pricing.

 

Disclosing the faults is defining the goods as damaged. If the buyer is still willing to pay the original price, let them.

 

omg, here we go again with the disclosure thing. This is just going to go round in circles. I didn't even bother replying in the other thread anymore.

 

When it comes to "ethical" and "legal" in terms of sales of goods... well, remember that for a long time, Microsoft had more lawyers than programmers. Nature of the game is to CYA. If you don't, something will rise up out of the past and bite you there.

You can think of computer dealers as truly altruistic, and wanting to give the customer the best possible goods and services because they care, or you can think of them as businesses in the modern litigious society where people sue fast food stores for selling them coffee that burned their lap when they spilled it. Either way, any business that doesn't pay attention to liabilities is soon an ex-business.

 

On the plus side, it looks like Intel has begun shipping out new chipsets today + an updated bios revision as well.

Intel dates Cougar Point B3 shipments | thinq_

This probably isn't the best source, but I found it on Reddit this morning. Hopefully I can still expect my order by mid-late March!

 

Happy Valentine's Day from Intel. That's good though, maybe all you Sager waiters will get yours shipped within a few weeks!

 

What I remember reading was that Clevo was going to test engineering samples before new production-ready chipsets were actually shipped from Intel. Does this mean that the testing of engineering samples is over and that the motherboards are ready to be replaced upon receipt from Intel?

This article seems to be clear that these new motherboards are for production and not testing, or maybe I'm reading into it...?

 

I don't think you're reading into it. Intel ES pre-production chips are typically only loaned to OEM's or ODM's for testing, etc., and remain Intel's property. This article definitely indicates that the shipments beginning on the 14th are production models and have a paralleled BIOS to go with them. If they are production models then they are definitely not ES chips.

Of course this article gives no specific clues as to whether rig builders still have their own testing to do or if ES chips were sent out last week under a confidentiality order and the builders had the last week to test them. I've stated all along my belief that due to the Cougar Point flaw being so minor, ES testing would be minimal upon resumed production, but again we will only know for sure in the next week or two as Clevo and others forward their expected shipping dates to Sager and the like.

 

While I definitely hope this is true, I agree that the article/site is a little questionable - there isn't even a source for it. Don't think I will hold my breath until there is official word either from Intel or Clevo/Sager.

Thanks for posting it though!


Edit: Then again, I believe that someone had posted this or something similar ( Fixed Intel chip to ship in mid-February | Nanotech - The Circuits Blog - CNET News) a couple days ago. The Feb 14 date does coincide with the mid-Feb timeframe I guess, but others had mentioned that this was the expected timeline all along.


Edit 2: Thanks to StZu, there is now official word

 

Great news!

 

Yes it's great to hear of progress on the Intel situation however the latest we have up to now is...

"The current schedule is that starting in the middle of Feb 2011, Intel will start supplying qualification samples of the new revision of Intel 6 series chipset to Clevo. Clevo RD and QC will make it their first priority to test and qualify this new chip revision and prepare for mass production.

Currently the mass production version of the revised 6 series is scheduled to begin delivery from Intel to Clevo in limited quantities at the end of Feb 2011. We estimate that we will resume limited quantity shipment of Sager models NP8130, NP8150, and NP8170 in the middle of March 2011 and limited quantity of NP5160, NP5170 models at the end of March to the beginning of April 2011. Stabilization of shipment for all models should occur by the end of April 2011."

 

So this is just "on-time" basically.

 

That is Correct!

 

I'm not sure how this could be considered on time, but rather 2 weeks early as this doesn't sound like the "qualification samples" that Clevo was talking about, but rather the production version.

Maybe Clevo routinely expects to receive things 2 weeks late from Intel.

Not trying to poke straws, but 2 weeks is a lot of time for a $2.5k-3k investment with no tangible returns as of yet. I think it is definitely worth nuking out the time line particulars.

 

Make it "...sound like..." what ever you like, but it is not the final production chipsets that are beginning to ship next week.

The time line for Sager/Clevo product has not changed from what Sager originally announced, which has been repeated here by those who know several times.

 

Well I'm hoping that the announcement from Clevo is superseded by the news that is being reported from Intel and that a new time line is released.

 

Engadget is nice because its so popular, but it has its times where they straight up me off with their obvious bias. I don't frequent Tom's as much as I should, but Anandtech is very knowledgeable, and reputable, in my opinion.

With that said, these sites know what Intel releases, but they don't know what Sager/Clevo will do and how long it will take them to do it. These time frames have been the same since this fiasco started because it's better to be safe than sorry.

Clevo/Sager could say that they are going to resume shipments late feb., with normalcy returning by mid-march, but if they said that and failed to meet the deadline it would be much worse than saying march-april.

All this speculation is like wondering what would sandy bridge be like back in November. Fun for discussion, but without statements from the company sort of pointless.

ps: Totally agree with the "$2.5k-3k investment with no tangible returns" part. The only reason I ordered was to "get in line" and have it in my hands by next week, so I, like many, am very angry. Hell, I even paid cash to get my order through sooner.

 

Those 'who know' only respectively 'know' what they're told and nothing more. Sager gets no info directly from Intel, only Clevo. Based on the actual facts as presented and officially announced by Intel, regardless of whether 'one' cares when this issue is finally resolved, they had ES or QS ready for testing more than ten days ago. Period! Intel has spent the last two weeks mass producing the defect-free chipsets - NOT simply producing ES or QS. Intel also stated they were beginning their revised production runs the very same day they announced the Cougar Point flaw. That, too, is a fact. Further, as the defect was so relatively minimal, there was and is little testing required at any point of manufacturing or supply-line to validate the minor alterations as implemented in production.

Of course, I'm not saying that Clevo won't use the next couple weeks spending time in further verifying the fix for their own purposes or peace of mind, but Intel's shipping announcement IS for production-model chipsets and NOT ES or QS. Even if it impossibly were, Intel would not have approached it in the same manner as they factually have done so. They would have worked with their customers behind the scenes as they always have prior to mass production and final release of their products.

Again, it is very common to promote one schedule publicly, only to have another in-house schedule to actually adhere to. As I have said before, the only way we will finally find out the 'internal' schedule, if ever, is when Clevo notifies their clients of pending shipments publicly. That is ALL up to Clevo and not Intel. All we do know at this point is that Intel IS two weeks ahead of their public schedule. That doesn't mean Clevo will keep pace, as they are their own separate business.

To insinuate that Intel made a public announcement of shipping their new revised chipsets with a new bios as nothing more than simply being ES or QS is a bit naive IMO; however, Clevo may continue adhering to their own schedule regardless of what Intel is doing, and there will be no direct schedule advancement for potential Sager customers until Clevo follows Intel's lead. So, in the end 'paladin44' is dead-on in his official assessment, since Clevo has not changed their public schedule. We can all get excited the day Clevo provides an update, and not a minute earlier, no matter what Intel does.

 

Papa Bear, Mama Bear, and Baby Bear were gathered outside, pacing around their mailbox and peering up the road, looking for the UPS truck.

"They will ship our computer this week," said Papa Bear.
"No, they will ship our computer in three months," said Mama Bear.
"You're both wrong," said Baby Bear. "They will ship our computer mid-March."

Meanwhile, Goldilocks stayed inside, snug by the fire in her comfy Lazy-boy recliner, watching Netflix movies streamed to her Wii. "They will ship my computer when it's ready, and not a moment sooner or later," she sighed contentedly.

 

Very creative and funny. Unfortunately, children stories don't really apply in business.

If I'm late paying a bill, the electric company will turn off my lights. I wish I could tell them that they'll get their payment when it's ready, not a moment sooner or later.

I think I've made my point that I'm disappointed in Intel/Sager/Clevo and I think the only thing that will remedy my disappointment is if Sager/Clevo starts giving specific ship dates to our resellers. I in no way blame the resellers, they are just as helpless as we are by this. However, a vague time line that seems to not jive with well-sourced and credible reporting is starting to irk me.

By all means Sager, please continue accepting pre-orders up the wazoo, you've created enough of an undefined buffer zone to certainly fulfill them by the end of the year and still be "technically" business ethical.

I won't comment on this particular idea again, but I'm sure I'm not alone.

 

I didn't mean to be snide; I guess I see that there is a good chance that Clevo won't issue a hard ship-date because they want to test those engineering samples. After all, the only thing I can think of that would make this whole situation worse is if they rushed to start regular shipments with the "corrected" chipset, only to find another problem down the road a ways.

I bet that within a week or two of the ES chipsets being received by Clevo, they will issue some firmer dates. For now, they are in the completely no-win position of trying to satisfy pre-order consumers while ensuring that they can trust the new batch of chips. Rocks and hard places abound in that situation.

Ultimately, I would rather be fuzzy on when I'm getting my laptop than worry about flaws in the new builds. I admit, I have the luxury of not *needing* my laptop quickly. It's an upgrade for a machine I've used for over 5 years. One month or four, in the end I'd rather be certain of the quality.

 

In all honesty, such seemingly non-committal estimates are really quite commonplace in business. A lot of times, it could even be the best information that a business can provide as well.

Of course, all of us, including the businesses themselves, would love to have hard, predictable timelines that we can rely on. And, if businesses are able to provide customers with those, I am quite sure they very likely would. Unfortunately, that is not always the case since that information is not always available. Add to that variables such as customer priority, and an originally predictable timeline might as well be put to the dumps. And yes, as much as anyone hates to hear it, businesses do prioritize customers, and more important ones who come in with last minute ad hoc demand do receive product that was already allocated to a lower priority customer.

So, I can see why Intel and Clevo/Sager provided the estimates that they did. I am not saying they or anyone here is right (or wrong) - just sharing what my experiences are. Though I would agree that currently, the best bet for those with preorders is really that they will receive their orders when they are ready, according to what Clevo/Sager have stated so far.

 

But they gave us a timeline +/- a week. Pre-orders will ship as components start trickling in and are assembled middle of March for NP81XX machines, and NP51XX machines end of March, beginning of April. Then they will quickly ramp up parts and ship out on a first ordered basis. I'd imagine they'll be rolling fairly quickly by mid April, and recalled machines will be asked to ship back in May or later.

 

I ordered mine on 1/25, I hope they'll send the order to Phase 2 by mid-March. I don't wanna wait 'til April.

 

Agreed. Not to mention that this "lull", for lack of a better word, will probably allow them to catch up, and hedge, against all the backorders before the SB "fiasco".

 

Lot of arguing over timeline, I see...

Well hi. I just ordered an NP8130 too, but I'm not too concerned over timeline since I have a laptop already. I just hope they take their time and make sure everything is up to snuff rather then just pushing out laptops to meet demands. I want my new pc to be perfect!

 

I can see why someone might say that, but I believe it to be more like a healthy and vigorous discussion.

 

'tis right. This man must be married, if not, ready to be... There's never an argument only a healthy exchange of opinions.

 

Pfft. Euphemisms, smeuphemisms.

 

I don't think they will ship out the order by mid-March...I ordered 8170 on 1/23 and I asked them whether my order would be shipped out by the middle of March or not,they just said they would try their best...what a slim hope...

 

That's actually a pretty standard non-committal reply. It gives them a little leeway, but also allows for the possibility to "exceed expectations" of mid-March shipments.

Like you said, I wouldn't hold my breath though. Always best to be pleasantly surprised, than sorely disappointed.

 

I got that same line. It's kind of annoying since some people paid cash to get in line and the people who paid with CC are staying in line without any real commitment (comparatively). I just wish I would get even a slight time frame, but I guess its better to not give a estimate and miss that date.

 

People who paid CC had to pay their bills already by now or be forced to pay interest...

 

I forget where I saw it but, the CC doesn't get fully charged until it goes into production. Until everything is in check there is a hold or something in place, but no money is exchanged. This is because of the merchant fee that CC companies charge businesses to use their card format. If a CC is charged immediately, that fee is applied and a percentage is taken out for the CC company. If the person decided to cancel the order (say because of a long wait or something) then that fee isn't returned so its a loss to the merchant. This is what I heard, but it could be different for different companies.

Edit: found it

Do you charge for back ordered/pre ordered items/What is a Pre Order?
By default we will not charge for a back ordered item. We will charge once the item is in stock and available. Special requests can be made by emailing [email protected]. A Pre Order is a order for a item that has not been released. A Pre Order is placed to reserve your spot in line once the manufacturer releases these items and starts shipping. This secures your order and ensures you receive one of these highly anticipated items as soon as possible.

 

Yeah, this is correct. Malibal did an authorization on my card for the purchase amount, but it cleared after a few days. I haven't been charged yet, and they said I won't be charged until the order is in production.

 

OK I guess different vendors have different policies. Mythlogic has already charged my card and I'd already paid the bill to Chase.

 

A timeframe has been given. Read #2 and #3 of the OP.

If things are on schedule, Clevo should just now be receiving the qualification samples of the revised chipset, which they will test until the end of February/early March. Things are still on schedule for the first shipments to come in mid-to-late March, unless something goes wrong. If you're one of the first in line from your reseller, it's safe to have hopes of receiving one by early April.

The uncertainty is the reason I've decided to not preorder until solid shipment dates start coming in from vendors.

 

Ya I've seen xoticpc get orders on the jan 17th and ship by jan 29/30. I ordered the 17th with money being received the following Monday the 24th. So hopefully I'm one of the first batch of new shippments that trickle through mid-march

 

I just got a email from Larry at LPC Digital and here it is
"Good News! Yours is scheduled to ship out THIS WEEK!! "
I placed my order for a Sager NP8150 on January 21 2011
Anyone else here any news?

 

Only phase 2 for me. In the next phase it ships. Xotic said "6-12 business days for production" last Thursday, 3/3. I wish I got a definitive ship date, although this leaves less room for disappointment.