BGA Venting Thread ;)

If the system is configured with two 1080s, can you effectively turn one off and use one brick? I guess this is moot ... honestly for travel I guess two bricks or a big brick is is not a deal braker.

Any chance that this thing.would fit under the seat of an airplane, or is it overhead only? I'm warming to this idea given the advantages of these bigger systems.

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Disable Sli and use one brick for traveling

 

So I have to confess that I am enjoying my P650RS-G more and more as I continue to use it.

Is that wrong? Maybe some BGA systems are worthy of considerstion?


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NO!!

Edit: I do not tell you what you shall buy... I tell you what you SHOULD buy.

 

When they work, they work. When they don't work... I hope you're still under warranty.

 

Correct, it can be run off one, but you have to remember to disable SLI. Just realize you could damage an adapter, or possibly even the notebook if you tried to draw too much power than was available. You have to be careful and be sure of what you are doing.

I don't see why it wouldn't fit under the seat. I've carried tons of laptops in backpacks on planes. It's never the laptop size that is an issue, its all thre junk in my backpack. I have taken a bunch of the accessories out and packed them with my clothes so the backpack was thinner.

 

I have actually did up a spreadsheet comparing some of the socketed and BGA laptops, which shows me some interesting results.

I can't upload here as an image for some reason; it won't show up here at all

 

You have to use an external image hosting site, like imagur. You can google it and find a ton of them out there, there are even some that do not require an account, but i think your image will not be saved for as long.

 

The way you ask that question is as though BGA is something immorally wrong (hint: it isn't). BGA is perfectly fine for systems that are targeted at people who have a smaller budget, or want a lighter machine that's equally powerful but not necessarily as heavy as the desktop replacements. If you enjoy your purchase, that's a good thing, because you know you've got your money's worth.

As for your second question: there are plenty of BGA systems worthy of consideration, such as your own.

 

Thanks! I tried to use the media functions here, they don't seem to work...

Let me see if my Google Drive works

 

until we all realize they are trying to change the standard, by charging same amount or more, for less. soon that "less" standard will be the norm and people will always think their purchase is worth their money and always be happy.

i get what your coming from, sometimes we enthusiast ask for too much however BGA isnt something we can accept. companies will strip those away slowly and shall never return it to us.

 

Ok, I will just put up a link to the image of the spreadsheet here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5qLr_HzygesRnpNR2Y1RlpRcEE

tl;dr of it is that choosing between BGA and socketed is not as easy as what you think.

Going for socketed means having to pay an additional 1000 SGD, needing to handle another 10mm in thickness and 0.8kg in weight, and losing about 2 hours of battery life.

But you get an additional USB port, Thunderbolt 3 capability, 1 line in port (and therefore being able to have external 7.1 sound instead of 5.1 sound), and of course, all those performance and maintenance benefits of socketed hardware.

These comments are made based on comparing laptops of the same size. But if you are ok with either size, things are much more interesting.

For instance, comparing a 17 inch BGA and 15 inch socketed, you are still getting the same benefits but having to pay only an additional 400 SGD, handling another 9mm in thickness and 0.2kg in weight, and losing about 2 hours of battery life.

Seems to me that socketed 15 inch has the best portability and performance balance. Just too bad about the battery life though.

 

Equally powerful? Maybe the graphics. What with the rest of the hardware... The processing powa? More like this http://hwbot.org/hardware/processor/core_i7_6700hq/ or this? http://hwbot.org/hardware/processor/core_i7_6820hk/ I don't think so

 

You are right on the lower battery life, and larger size and weight, but the most expensive laptops are BGA, not the socketed ones.

Razer blade pro with 1080 is a lot more than a socketed single 1080 system that smokes it performance wise
MSI GT83VR is a lot more...
Predator 21" is a awful lot more

 

Fair enough, I was comparing among only Clevo laptops as I find Clevo has the best price-performance ratio; if you compare Clevo's BGA to those BGA laptops you mentioned, you realise that their specs are almost the same, but Clevo is way cheaper

 

i find that battery life is a questionable thing, tbh people that knows how to configure/tweak system can simply adjust it, boot window with just 1 core and tune it with throttlestop to just 1.5ghz for example and we'll have a much longer battery life, heck even boot with iGP.

also given 6700k runs at 4.2ghz and HQ/HK BGA CPU runs at a lower frequnecy, figures.

 

I actually tried this yesterday with not so good results. With throttlestop keeping my max freq way down, (tried from 160mhz to about 1ghz), no internal screen, and just surfing I was still using about 45-100 watts. Which I think would translate to around 1-2 hrs of battery time. I realize this wasn't super accurate, but I expected it to use like 10-20watts with such low settings and no screen, and basically just idling.

I just realized that measurement was at the wall, so my adapters would likely using up some of that juice, so maybe I was at 20-30, which would mean more like 3-4 hrs. I bet those adapters aren't very efficient at the low end of the power scale.

 

I tested [email protected] clock speed with my 6700K downclocked to see what bench score and what power draw could be vs. th fully locked mobile [email protected] BGA trash. It looks like the soldered mobile i7 FILTH are not so energy efficient as some claime And Intel want more $$$ for their mobile i7 filth than i7 LGA.

Wiping out the the 6700BGA bench scores on Hwbot with same clock speed. Wprime 1024M maxed out at 31.1W and max 33C degrees. Best Wprime scores for [email protected] in Hwbot (206,273 sec and 6sec 745ms) was smashed in a jiffy http://hwbot.org/hardware/processor/core_i7_6700hq/ The result can be seen in pict.

So yeah, You can tune down to BGA speed, for saving power and still beat the BGA trash in processing power. This with same clock speed





See also http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...ware-17-r4-15-r3.797378/page-29#post-10429493

 

this is excellent test and is what we need to show it to people for them to really understand. do not simply believe in brand name and model number what intel claims them to be, intel is simply making money off of that thought process and taking advantage of people's good will and unwillingness to research more. ultimately, intel is a company to make money, it does not defy the law of physics given that BGA and LGA CPUs are the same generation and same architecture, power consumption coming off from current/volage regulated from a chip dictates that. @hmscott @mason2smart

@Porter surfing is quite tough unless the content you surf for both cases are very similar, also you'll be amazed just how much power an always active wifi module consumes. there are some would use more power and requires more power from cpu, ram, caching or GPU etc, such as javascript, flash, videos and also browser dependent too. what I do is to have dual boot partition, one partition only boots with 1 core at 1.5ghz or lower and uses only iGP and really only made to watch video when power goes out, in comparison with 4 cores and default window battery profile, it last 2hrs longer, pretty damn good yo

 

See https://ark.intel.com/compare/88195,88967 Intel recommends higher price, for less

 

@Papusan Whoa! This sure changes a bit of my perception... But this works only if your BIOS lets you to underclock your desktop CPU right?

Problem is, not every reseller has Prema's BIOS...

 

We have still @unclewebb and his amazing.... TS In worst case XTU for underclock!!


@darkarn You could clock down for saving powa Cpu package power around +-9.5W in Cinebench R15 and similar task isnt much and can extend the battery time.


And still kill Core i7 6500U http://hwbot.org/benchmark/cinebenc...Id=processor_4455&cores=2#start=0#interval=20 in Cinebench R15. And the price for this ****y https://ark.intel.com/products/88194/Intel-Core-i7-6500U-Processor-4M-Cache-up-to-3_10-GHz Near $400 usd

 

Oh yeah, good ol' ThrottleStop! How could I forget that!

 

Thanks. My point was that I was seeing if I could bring the beast laptop down to a more reasonable power usage like a bga laptop and get 4-6 hrs of usage, but I think it's just too big of a stretch even with highly reduced cpu speeds way below even the worst bga, and internal screen off.

There are more things I could try but I was only interested in quick things that didn't require bios settings or rebooting. Something I could click a button and get double the battery life. It doesn't help that I have multiple SSDs powered up and sli which even at idle uses some power.

 

As long as people continue to open their wallets for garbage, they will continue providing it.

 

I can get four hours of battery life on the Tornado F5. I think it mostly has to do with the fact that I have the 1920x1080 screen, and only a single SATA SSD. I am actually very curious how the P750DM2 would compare with a similar configuration. At my previous job a P750ZM was my work machine, and it did not get very good battery life. At best, it seemed like two hours. I had kind of just figured it was the desktop processor (4790k in that one) or desktop chipset and there was not much I could do.

 

For LGA... you gotta "Walk the Walk"!

Spoiler

 

The problem is that your GPUs, even idle, are eating roughly 15W of power. If your CPU is consuming 20W, that means that your battery life drops from a potential 3.6 hours to 2 hours.

 

Nope... not even one is worthy of consideration. Unless it is available under $500 and that's all you want, or the max you can afford. Bottom line is they are all lame feces. BGA is always garbage, 100% of the time... no exceptions... ever.

 

I have come very close to saying "I wish I bought the MSI 16L13" without quite saying it. Still, I think there is a big difference between buying a Clevo BGA system vs buying a (D)Alienware/HP/Acer/Asus/MSI/... It depends on if you believe in relative morality =P

Tempting me more is the notebookcheck review which is quite good. That on top of HID offering the next version is quite tempting - except that I would have to trade up:

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Eurocom-Tornado-F5-Notebook-Review.189496.0.html

They also report 3.5 hours surfing over wifi which confirms what @win32asmguy was saying. The battery is only slightly bigger than the 60WH battery in my P650RS-G. The flexibility of the system is really impressive, and I guess that has a lot to do with this gen desktop CPU.

 

It's probably obvious that I believe in absolutes... no room for relative morality in life... it unnecessarily complicates things and waters down the truth, LOL.
You have to choose... no middle ground. BGA is the blue pill... it keeps you in a dream world where you can believe whatever you wish. It does not need to be true.

I say choose the red pill (LGA) to stay in wonderland, find the truth, and see how deep the rabbit hole goes. @Prema BIOS + LGA = 2 red pills.

 

I really want Prema BIOS somehow...

 

the best movie ever! Give meh t3h r3d p!11

 

I think you are forgetting form factor. BGA is not garbage 100% of the time. BGA is a godsend for those of us that want/need 13" and under for an actual laptop, not desktop replacement. Just doesn't make sense for LGA to ever be in something smaller than 14".

Portability is important to a large segment of the market. BUT unfortunately they killed the performance market in the never ending quest for thin. Why does a 17" notebook need to be thin???? Doesn't make sense not to have LGA in the DR segment.

 

Yes, I think this is where relative morality counts for something here. Clevo's P650 is not on the same scale as Razer's RBP.

For example, I do not feel that Clevo committed a crime against nature and common human decency while at the same time insulting the intelligence of a common fruit fly by producing the P650.

 

Yees. You can find machines for this price. Why pay more? And Intel recommend ODM/OEMS to take high prices for less ... Aka almost $400 Usd for the low powered i7 U models https://ark.intel.com/m/products/88...-Cache-up-to-3_10-GHz#@product/specifications
You can clearly see people don't know what they buy... They need to be informed BEFORE they buy the trash.

NO!! The only difference between the Jokebook models is the prince and design. The internals is exactly the same... Soldered trash!! Nothing of this is worth using your hard earned money on. I have said this to you all before... You can get a cheaper machine which can serve you well for max 2 - $500 usd. Throw it in the trash can when the soldered filth blow up into flames and buy a new similar machine if you absolutely want jokebooks. Cheaper the lower loss. The moral is... Let the ODM/OEM's blead!!

 

I totally agree with the second paragraph, as one might expect, but I still see no real reason they could not use low TDP LGA in a 13-inch or less notebook. It might add an extra ounce or two, maybe an extra 1/8 inch (not more than 1/4 inch) to the thickness and still give the guys that need small something better. I find it really difficult to understand where such a minuscule change in form factor factor would not be embraced in favor of owning an overall better product. Performance is is definitely important, but so is serviceability. It's really sinful to make everything small disposable. Soldering CPU and GPU to the motherboard is just not an intelligent design IMHO. Soldering them to the motherboard makes as much sense as welding or casting the housings of starters, alternators and AC compressors to the engine block. If you could have a 13-inch machine that, for all intents and purposes, is essentially the same size and weight but made with modular components, wouldn't you prefer to have that?

 

I don't know; I'm mainly taking about portables with a GPU as well. In order for LGA to make sense in a Laptop, you need MXM gpu too. If they could fit a MXM in a 13" notebook; I would be happy as a pig in mud. Wouldn't min it being almost 2" thick either, thickness is not the issue, but work-space and fitting it under my arm along with a notepad.

 

I thought you might feel that way. You're a smart fellow and that is one of the things that makes you awesome. Being old (me too) also helps with the awesome factor because fads and popularity are 100% irrelevant. +5 Rep

 

Yes, I agree with this completely. I would be much happier if my P650 had socketed components. And I agree that they should be able to use socketed components without significantly impacting thickness (or cost for that matter).

As an aside, thickness matters to me. I could just barely get my backpack under the seat in front of me. In the future either awesome compute power will come in small cheap packages or I will stow my awesome laptop overhead.

Hah! Back in the early 80's I had an "Audi Fox Stationwagon" (not the performance car you see today - at all). In order to fix the alignment you had to hammer the chassis - the mechanic working on it was cursing my name and telling me to buy a new car lol!

 

BGA laptops

 

Very nice comparison! I wasn't really aware of the BGA/non-BGA controversy when I bought my laptop. Looking back I think the only LGA laptop I would have considered would be the Tornado F5 which was not yet available. The 15" LGA Clevo is not quite as appealing.

I'm eager to see how the revamped Tornado F5 with the GTX 1080 performs (I think HID will be offering this).

 

INFO, INFO, INFO out to the people. They don't know you can get better than Jokebooks!! INFO!!
Regarding Tornado F5 with the GTX 1080 http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...cussions-lounge.797128/page-221#post-10429465

 

Yes, I have been following the thread. My understanding is that the v2 Tornado F5 is not out yet with the 1080 and newer chipset.

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You just saw the score from 1080 But with the previous chipset. There is not much difference between older Z170 vs. newer Z270 https://ark.intel.com/compare/90591,98089

 

Well, we can speculate there won't be much difference, given other Intel non-upgrades, but a new motherboard chipset is a bit different that a CPU only change.

It's supposed to offer additional features for designers to take advantage of, and support Kabylake features in CPU's, so there should be something to it

We won't really know until the Z270 motherboard chipset laptops are out, but we should be able to do comparisons against Z170 / Z270 desktops.

BGA Kabylake CPU laptops are coming out with upgrade motherboard chipsets, the CM238 and HM175.

All the desktop motherboards are coming out with Z270 at Kabylake release, MSI should have done the same with the F5 barebones. It's odd that a new CPU with a new chipset didn't warrant new laptop motherboard to support them.

I hope when the MSI 16L14 or whatever it's called comes out, it's worth the effort to engineer in the new chipset - another M.2 slot or 2 and faster memory support, and Optane.

I assume the new Clevo P870 will have the Z270?

 

They needed probably to push out 7700K before new MB and chipset. And as you said... Not much info yet. But without iGPU, there isn't much difference. The adaptive voltage for avx is supported in mod bios. And you don't get fully performance with 3x NVMe drives in raid. And I don't know how the new chipset and 7700K work out with Win 7. We need more info

 

The fact remains that area, and not just height, matters. The LGA socket is huge, and the accompanying chipset is equally big. They are, first and foremost, desktop parts. I care not that they have been successfully placed in laptops; literally 99.99% of the use case of the LGA socket is in a traditional desktop tower or a workstation. The probability that any OEM/ODM puts both an LGA CPU (which would end up throttling to 40-50 W anyway due to the small machine not being able to dissipate the heat put out by something like a 7700K at full tilt) and an MXM GPU in any machine that has a screen smaller than 15" is very, very low. There wouldn't be any point in an LGA socket when manufacturers can save space and hence costs by using BGA. Next, literally no one would buy a 13" machine just for it to be 2" tall (I certainly wouldn't). It defeats the purpose. It's not worth the R & D costs, as any such machine would be widely derided by popular media which appears to prefer razor-thin machines like the Razer Blade (pun not intended).

This is why despite @Papusan's protests, I would like a return of the rPGA socket.

Notwithstanding the fact that MXM modules are also big, it's quite easy to explain why small machines forever have had, at the very least, soldered GPUs. It is the price we pay: trade 'serviceability', as you call it, for portability.

It isn't a 'minuscule' change, as you put it. Putting in modular components require plenty of space, something which adding a half inch here and there wouldn't suffice for. Look at what happened to the modular phone concept from Google. Good in theory, failed miserably in practice.

Also, the way you say it is as though we want our small notebooks to be 'unserviceable', as you put it. Who does? The fact is that the notebook industry doesn't have standards, and small notebooks have a physical limitation in their volume. One can only stuff so much copper fins in such a small space. The same predicament thing applies to modern smartphones today. One company removes an SD card slot: everyone else follows. Another company gets rid of a perfectly functional audio port (in the name of 'courage') : everyone else follows it. Phones are getting thinner but wider, with hardly any improvement in battery life. Not can their batteries be changed any more.

I don't think you've used small machines much, @Mr. Fox, because you expect the near-impossible (at least for the very near future). Every single modularisation of a component requires space and power, neither of which are in excess in an already space-starved environment like a 13" machine.

I would love to eat my words and see a reasonably-proportioned 13-14" notebook with MXM and rPGA, but I can be certain it won't happen for a fairly long while.

 

I believe they changed the 1080 - it is not socket compatible with the previous MXM board. Higher TDP maybe? More from a15" system? I'm very interested and want more info! 8)

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I really do not like small machines at all. A 15-inch notebook (which I have - see signature) is bordering on unacceptably small. I keep it because I do have uses for it, but it's not all that enjoyable to use because it is so small. So, your assumption is accurate. I have a Lenovo T430 provided by my employer and I truly despise it... an absolutely miserable product to use as a legitimate excuse for a computer because it is way too small and offers anemic performance.

I do understand there are different needs among users, and I am OK with that. The part I am not OK with is the lack of options for those that loathe small and anemic filth, like me. That is becoming a problem and that's why you see all of the display of contempt for BGA filth. Back in the day when there were multiple good options it was not necessary for those of us that hate BGA to care. It was irrelevant because we had a variety of good options. I will always prefer massive DTRs with modular components, overclockable, repairable WMDs for people on the go. Now the industry offers only one 17-inch (P870DM3) and one 15-inch (Tornado F5) laptop that I would ever consider opening my wallet for. That's really sad and it is not a good thing to be put in the position of having only one acceptable option in each of those form factors.

I do have a limited use for "portability" and just posted this in another thread...

I am not being facetious. I actually have a Fire tablet and use it daily. It's a great product for the uses I have for it. I also use my smartphone(s) daily, but I don't expect to do anything serious with the phones or the tablet. They are useful as convenience items.