BGA Venting Thread ;)

When they say The onboard components also minimize power consumption... It just means that they use low TDP processors aka BGA Crap which has 45W TDP as standard. So nothing new
And gaming on the go just means gaming on battery. Aka you get a great experience, LOL

 

This is counter intuitive. I would think the ILM would take up more space (that little spring hinge thing makes it look that way).

You sure there's a lot of free space? My laptops mobo looks pretty jammed (I have a pic a few pages back).

This is very deceptive on the vendors side. Yeah, it takes less power because Intel throttles down the version of the CPU that you get when you choose BGA. Not because BGA somehow magically uses less power. This made me cackle uncontrollably.

EDIT: I should add that lower power consumption means you can use a lighter heatsink. So maybe that's where they save on overall weight. "Winning...."

 

It's great that you have awakened and can see this BGA madness prevail. More individuals should do the same... Simply wake up and see BGA with other eyes With my eyes

 

Yes, I think based on this discussion I do have a personal objection to BGA systems beyond a certain price point. But I also have tight requirements when it comes to mobility. When buying a laptop, the only options that meet this requirement may be BGA systems. The key for me then is understanding and accepting the tradeoffs (compromises) and deciding how much to spend based on them.

I went through that with my current (BGA) laptop and I accept the outcome. Frankly I could have done a lot worse. Clevo definitely brings something to the table even for the BGA options. At the time (Oct 3) I couldn't find a system that was better.

 

That's normal, usually after they place the motherboard components they make the PCB as small as possible. It doesn't matter what laptop mobo you will look at, most will look crammed.

http://www.cpu-world.com/Sockets/L_Socket_G1-CPU.jpg
http://www.e-weekly.co.uk/download/RnD/DRIVERS/CLEVO/P1x0SM/P150ESM.pdf

As you can see here, it does take a bit more space, but it's not that much. That space depends a lot on the model. If you have a smaller laptop like below 14 inch, yes, that space will matter and using BGA will make sense, on 15 and 17 laptop there is usually a lot of space inside the laptop itself. I mean, Clevo managed to place a desktop socket on a 15 inch laptop, and a desktop socket takes up more space than a laptop socket. I don't have the time to measure it now, but I reckon the socket takes no more than 1 extra sq cm. Depends on the socket as well I suppose.

EDIT: Actually, by looking at the Clevo's book I realised the mounting mechanism takes more space than the socket. So even if say, the above Mobo had a BGA , you won't be able to save much area because of the mounting mechanism and its back-plate reinforcement. Maybe that explains some of the throttling ? Maybe in order to save space they changed the mounting mechanism and it doesn't keep the CPU so firmly attached to the mobo ?
For Clevo it looks the same:
http://downloads.zoostorm.com/drivers/laptop/P651SX/P651SE_Manual/P65XSE_ESM.pdf
Also it does show how much extra space is left around the CPU which potentially could accommodate a socket.

 

Does Clevo currently have a socketed 15" laptop? MSI does but it is about 0.5" thicker than my P650RS-G (which is a bummer, but maybe I could have made it work).

EDIT: I see the P750DM2-G. @Mr. Fox how does this compare to the Tornado 5? Also how are these two laptops when it comes to running on battery? Can they do MSHYBRID or is that a BGA thing?

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P750DM2 is pure dGPU and has about 150 Minutes on Battery with its 1070...

 

I genuinely like tinkering with my machines.

Last 3 laptops I have owned were the m4600, m6600, and the y510p.

I use the m4600 for most everything now, I took the quad core out of the m6600 and put the dual core from the m4600 and sold off the m6600. Then I took the Quadro 1000m out of it and replaced it with an m5100. Now I can play Overwatch with my fiance when she wants at about 60-70FPS @ Low. Theres not a chance in hell I could do that with the Quadro 1000m (540m).

The y510p on the other hand only has socketed CPU, and are becoming irrelevant because the 755m SLI isnt able to power games like it did in 2013-2014. If the eGPU adapter for the ultrabay didnt exist then it would become less and less useful to me even though the i7 4700mq is still a capable CPU. The y510p taught me the BGA lesson.

I would much prefer just changing hardware, than changing my laptop altogether.

 

Is it possible to make a socketed system with both discrete and integrated GPU?

My P650RS-G gets under 240 hrs so it's not a huge difference, but I think that's from iGPU.

For folks who need both mobility and 6 to 8 hrs on battery, the BGA Ultrabook is the logical solution. And those play Candy Crush just fine =P

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This is a great example of the BGA tradeoff. I always thought "future proof" was kind of a myth we tell ourselves to justify spending a bit more, but I've lived in the BGA/surface-mount laptop world for quite a while. That world will always have it's place (when thin, light and unplugged are requirements).

In the desktop gaming replacement world things are different. For a certain price the system should be socketed. For me right now I think that price is over $2500. I say that because my dream machine P750DM2-G from HID would probably be around $2700 (similar price for a Tornado 5). Mind you that's the premium version with delided unlocked 6700K and CLLU which is nice to have covered under warranty A more adept person could bring the price down by quite a bit.

The P650RS-G I bought from HID is a little under $2400. I would say that that few extra hundred dollars for the P750DM2-G could yield up to 3 years longevity relative to the P650RS-G through component upgrades. In terms of size and weight, they are actually pretty close (the P750DM2-G is about 0.4" thicker and 0.3" wider weighs a little over 1.5 lbs more). Oh wow... you can also replace the battery pretty easily with the P750DM2-G.

But even with all that, I have to say I'm pretty happy with my decision. Or maybe that's just what I have to keep telling myself (hey I was pretty happy with my $1400 3+ year old BGA Ultrabook - but the wife wanted it and well I decided to upgrade =D).

@Donald@HIDevolution - that P750DM2-G is a sweet machine! Maybe next time... =)

 

"That world will always have it's place (when thin, light and unplugged are requirements)" Yeah I know, but in that world, you should max pay $200-500 Usd if you go for BGA. Why pay more? I will call it wasted money if you buy JOKEBOOK's for more than this amount of money But that's me. And several should follow my advice. Maybe we have seen a change to the better!! No ODM/OEM's wants to lose money. Vote with your wallet

 

The <$500 laptop market is pretty limited. Tablets and smartphones mostly.

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Google and you will find a lot for under $500
See the example. "DELL" $259.00
+ FREE shipping https://www.walmart.com/ip/Dell-Bla...500GB-Hard-Drive-and-Windows-10-Home/49835462 WHY pay more for BGA?


Or Lenovo - If you want a bigger 17.3" Laptop $360.99 http://www.bestbuy.com/site/lenovo-...00gb-hard-drive-black/5450868.p?skuId=5450868

 

Yeah, you can get laptops for 300-400 USD. I bought some for my company, not the best, but they do their job.

 

Let the greed bleed. Vote with your wallet and there will be changes!!

 

I won't say your wrong. But I think you're a little optimistic. Mobile users like me won't be happy with the failure rate of those laptops. But if you don't travel you might get 1 to 2 years out of them. Mobile users have to spend more for durability and small form factor. I think it's fair to call this another niche.

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A known brand as "DELL" 15 inch laptop for $ 259.00 is just to use up and throw in the trashcan. But you actually have warranty on the laptop SSD containing your data can be easily transferred to a new and <perhaps> new, better BGA machine for the same price or even cheaper when you go over to a new one later down the road. Why pay lots of money for the same BGA tech when you can get away with $ 259.00 or less? An easy choice, if you ask me Same time save up money for something decent. If this is what you really want.

Edit. See also reply from brother @Ashtrix http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/wireless-card-overheating.797246/page-6#post-10402729

 

Yeah but the real problem is having the laptop fail while you are on the road. Durability has a price tag and some of us will pay it. Durability with sockets would be great and I think thats an option.

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All laptops can fail. You have no guarantee for this. Why should a cheaper laptop fail? Same BGA tech as in more costly models.
It will be damn expensive if you could not afford extended warranty on an already pricey JokeBook. Some spend all the money on the laptop, but forget or can not afford extended warranty. Then they really screwed by BGA. If you buy cheap... No problem. Buy new. Not a big lose.

 

Oh, well, you are very focused on BGA vs non-BGA. I have to travel with two laptops so one has to be thin a durable. The solid aluminum Spectre 13t-3000 (BGA) served me very well for this. A cheap Dell would have not been a fun experience. And, well, how much experience have you had with Dell support? I think if I went the Dell route I would not trust anything but their business class laptops with NBD support. There consumer line (and support) is pretty bad.

 

What makes you think you're getting durability with a BGA system. I would argue they are far more damage prone when the case flexes and cracks traces.

 

I don't buy trash!!
Only Dellienware. But for $ 259.00, you should not be worried. You can even buy 2 pieces and even have money left with a limit of $ 518 (Of course damn, $18 usd more than what I thought was enough.) Still a way cheaper than all the costly JOKEBOOK's

 

It's not BGA vs non-BGA that makes a durable system. It's the build quality of the chassis, the lid, hinge, display etc. I personally prefer a solid metal chassis that doesn't flex at all. My current Clevo is fantastic, but many does the lid flex... It does not feel nearly as solid as my old Spectre.

Sockets would make it even better. But a socketed system without a solid chassis is not really solving the particular needs I'm talking about here.

 

That's kind of like buying two cheap used cars. You always have a backup, but it doesn't do you much good when you're 100's of miles away on the side of the road waiting for a tow truck.

I really do believe it's worth paying more for a solid build laptop with sockets.

But mobility and durability are constraints that may need to be met with a system that does not sport sockets. Long battery life is yet another constraint, but for me that one doesn't matter as much and I certainly don't expect it for gaming.

 

If you are unsure about the quality because of the price... Buy one for around $500. Even $600 if you are still not satisfied with the quality. Whatever a smarter choice than to empty your wallet for an expensive BGA machine that has similar tech...!!

Regardles. For $259 usd on cheapest buy http://www.ricksdailytips.com/dell-inspiron-i3552-8040blk-laptop-review/

 

Meh, I cant really sign off on this being that I just took my m4600/y510p/GE40 through Texas, Canada, and now into Korea.

We dropped the backpack carrying all this from the truck totaling about a 5 foot fall about 3 times.Trust me each time it happen my heart sank, as I use my m4600 for my BS degree. The y510p's touch pad is now broken, but my m4600 which is almost double the weight due is completely fine. In fact even the heatsink on the y510p has become a bit disjointed so I cant even game on it since it overheats. I can fix it easily with some time.

Now I could argue that this is what makes non-BGA laptops superior in a durability standpoint but the correlation is incorrect. That type of argument would have to be matched to individual model, not BGA vs non-BGA.

I think non-BGA is longevity with the ability to tinker with your machine to truly make it your own. You dont get as much manipulation in BGA machines (not saying there isnt, by any stretch). Especially in more recent years where you get less space to work with for modifications. Just my personal opinion, Im biased, since I like to open and tinker and see what I can improve on my laptops. Its what made me leave the desktop arena. Everything in desktops is standardized and boring these days, and OEM's arent willing to take any financial risks creating something unique.

tl;dr I like thinking of laptops as an investment, that I can make my own.

 

We are getting way off track here.

I hear and understand your reasons for avoiding BGA hardware and I generally agree them.

But I don't agree that buying cheap BGA hardware is a good idea for people who can't find a socketed system that meets their needs. Looking at the Amazon reviews of Dell Inspiron i3552-8040BLK reveals a nightmare I would not want to (re)live. 33% of the reviews are 1 or 2 stars. The 1 star reviews are horror stories involving poor tech support and nasty hardware flaws.

Like many people on this site, I do quite a lot of research before plonking down a wad of cash on a laptop. Getting good performance in a reliable, robust and small package does not come cheap BGA or non-BGA.

 

@ TheReciever and @Papusan - Yes, I am coming around to believing that given two laptops that meet all the same requirements I would pay a bit more to buy the socketed system. I am even willing to concede that I really should have looked at the P750DM2-G before comitting to the P650RS-G (even though I might have needed a new laptop bag to carry it).

But I also believe that there are reasons to buy BGA systems that do not have horrible build quality. Frankly, the build quality of my Spectre 13t-3000 is a bit higher than my Clevo P650RS-G, but it is much easier to put low power components in a metal clam shell.

 

I'm confused so what are you leaning towards now? Just remember your gaming performance will remain unchanged...

If build quality is a worry the Eurocom Tornado F5 is honestly nicer.

 

I'm not saying that you should buy this ↑↑↑ <particular> DELLBOOK. What I will forward to is that you can buy BGA machines for a much lower price than 6-7-8-9 or if you are crazy enough... Machine with similar BGA hardware to over $ 1,000 aka 1K
Dump the machine, then buy new when it fails. You have already saved so much money that you can buy a replacement and even have money left. Save the excess funds for a later purchase. Aka maybe you want save for an machine with socket hardware. Either a laptop with socket hardware or a desktop rig.

You almost say it yourself... Correct info about BGA and its limitations are important!! People need to know - get the correct info BEFORE they actually purchase a machine.

 

I think the p650 series is the closest I would come for a soldered machine but only because the 6820hk was available but even then I would have waited to see how far others were able to overclock and for how many cores plus Temps etc. Plus I thought it had tb3 so even when the gpu wasn't good enough I could always eGPU.

Though for my purposes the reason my the m4600 is the daily driver is because of the ssd / keyboard, well that and its cool to the touch, even at load. 65c on the gpu usually, but it's cold here in Korea so I have the ambient advantage.

 

Hi Galm,

Well, that's what I'm conceding. If the performance is the same a socketed system has advantages in terms of some upgrade paths, part replacement (instead of board replacement) and the option for desktop level hardware.

But I'm also saying that socketed systems may not be an option for all use cases, and cheap BGA systems may not be a viable alternative.

-Fred

 

Well, disregarding build quality, given constraints on size, weight in minimum performance specs you might have a hard time finding a cheap BGA alternative.

Almost? I think I did say it =) And better yet I think we agree. When you buy a monolithic system you have to be ready to accept the consequences. I will certainly try harder next time to get a socketed system, though that may be a while...

 

Wow, you have gotten a lot out of that machine no question! Six years from a laptop is impressive!

Buying laptops is nerve racking at best! I'm happy this site exists and I have to thank folks like @Galm for helping me navigate the difficult landscape.

I would like to credit this discussion and you guys for changing my view point. Prior laptops, cell phones, tablets and my last Ultrabook have lulled me into accepting BGA systems without considering socketed alternatives.

EDIT: wow, sorry for repeating myself so much on this thread. I'm getting old...!

 

Your making me feel bad about the P650 lol. I thought I said from the get go that the P650 is a great option for it's portability. The P750 is definitely superior upgrade wise. It's just huge and heavy.

After upgrading a BGA gpu myself it's also pretty uneconomical. A 980m was like 750 bucks when I did my upgrade...

Imo the best reason is for if parts break. Upgrading a cpu isn't likely to be a big gain if you started with a high end one on any given socket, as those change often enough. The gpu is nicer, but now as we've seen even that isn't a given.

 

You definitely shouldn't feel bad. At the time we were discussing this I was really not ready to consider a socketed system. I was only just getting used the idea of buying a gaming laptop and buying a Sager/Clevo from a small company. That was about as much as I could wrap my brain around!

But I think I am ready to consider the next step - thought it may be some time off.

EDIT: also the 650 was straining my budget. I don't think I would have considered the 750 at the time. This is definitely a learning curve and I'm a little further along it =)

 

For sure buying laptops is a huge endeavor. It's been a long trial and error and finally I have settled on some standard items that I will no longer overlook.

Socketed cpu / gpu / sata / ram
10-key - not crap keyboard
Minimal to no ports on right side of laptop
120hz capability
2-3 heatpipes per heat source. 1 fan per heat source. Rear exhaust.
Physical clicks for the mouse pad
Fan control
Space to play (mods)
Potential for eGPU

It needs to be able to extend its life on its own platform while also satisfying what I would like from its form factor (I/O and keyboard) gpu's always fall into inferiority before cpu's.

Just an unvetted opinion but I think people are compramising their checklist to get something now instead of forcing these companies to change their offerings to suit our needs.

Something like fan control in a 2k+ machine should be a natural option. Why it's not ill never know. These are things we all desired in 2009,here we are almost into 2017 and we still battle these companies and complain across the Internet and be treated as a vocal minority when their products come up short.
My theory is that people conform to what they present instead of the opposite.

I think I'm rambling at this point, forgive me if it's a mess as I've had wayyyyyy too much soju to be critical lol

 

No let's leave BGA off of business class machines. As those buyers need durable, reliable, and easily repaired hardware too. Leave the BGA to Crapple. And the UltraBook buyers who don't know better or can't be bothered to lift another pound and a half. I HATE BGA, and I'm not even a gamer.

 

Ditto

 

I generally agree with that. It's counter-intuitive that a business class machine with say a 5 year NBD warranty would not have socketed parts. But then the Latitudes are all starting to look awfully thin. Are only the E65XX series socketed?

I also have to ask - is it possible to create a thin Ultrabook with socketed CPU (and without a dGPU)?

I wonder how BGA is working out for Dell with the NBD 5 year warranties that a lot of corporations get. Have they cheapened the BGA CPUs to the point where a whole board replacement is around the same cost as a socketed CPU replacment used to be?

 

Could not have said it better myself. BGA = Tablet, smart phones and mini laptops aka 14 inches and smaller. + Rep on both

NO!!

For your Q about DELL. Mr. Azor aka @Alienware-Frank is the CEO for DELLIENWARE!! Nothing works properly at Dell. They can even destroying the already low performance from your BGA hardware.
See pict

 

@Papusan - that is unfortunate...

I mentioned before that I have to travel with two laptops. For a gaming laptop, the P750DM2 is perhaps the only socketed option that would work and is only slightly thicker than my P650RS and only about 1.5 lbs heavier. Really not too bad.

(Having said that I also want to say I don't really have buyers regret. I am on the path towards a socketed future =P).

My second laptop has to be a lot thinner (and lighter). Under 1.0". The only real option is a BGA Ultrabook. I have had very good luck with my pror generation Latitudes but they were roughly the size of my current gaming laptop and probably socketed (though that never made a difference to me). This is my first Latitude that is a BGA Ultrabook and I guess we'll see how it works out.

 

If it was simply ignorance and laziness I would agree with you. There are reasons to have a thin and light laptop that have nothing to do with either being lazy or ignorant.

 

Azor is a tool period!

Their notebooks are even more **** then they used to be... Can't imagine how many idiots out there buy their gutter products... Even the upgradeble ones used to break so much.. My Clevo on the other hand has hardly made a fuss and works perfectly!

 

I have to thank this site and @Galm in particular for talking me down from buying a Razor Blade as a mobile gaming laptop.

That's just so you know where I was when I started on this resent journey

Getting a Sager/Clevo was a big first step for me and I guess that introduced me to the world of enthusiast laptops.

So think of my BGA purchase as subsidizing Clevo so they can continue to make those fine socketed machines . My money did not go to the usual suspects.

But yeesh... I guess all the Dell Latitude's really are BGA (I thought maybe they would have one hold out). I'm with @Papusan on this one - when my wife needs a new laptop (which will have to be thin & light) I'll go to the Dell outlet with coupons in hand and get the cheapest Latitude I can. I'll save the money for a 5 year NBD warranty...

And as I said the next time I buy a high performance laptop I'll definitely look at the socketed options.

 

One thing just to keep in mind is that on the high end business laptops the warranties and support are very good. So the difference in a cpu failing on a socket vs soldered machine really isn't noticeable. Either way they'll just send you a new one and quickly. It's more of an issue on consumer machines where warranties are worse, stuff fails more often, and getting the replacement is slower.

I do wonder statistically how likely it is for you to actually take advantage of the cpu being soldered. I would say it's quite low.

 

See Clevo N350DW 5.5lbs, 1.3in thick.

 

Yes! A cheap business class BGA Ultrabook with a long warranty (ideally 5Y NBD) should keep my wife pretty happy when the time comes to get one. Failure rate is probably pretty low because Dell really wants to take your warranty money and never hear from you again. (which may be an argument for cheap business class Ultrabook with no additional warranty...).

In the (hopefully distant) future when I get another high end gaming laptop, I will look closely at the socketed systems as I think there are enough good reasons to get one if I can swing it.

 

Wow, very cool. That's a pretty nice little laptop - and it even has a dock. Very smart. Nice going Clevo! =)

The Shenker version is pretty well reviewed on notebookcheck - you also have a lot of flexibility in which CPU you want (they are all the desktop T versions which makes sense). Yes, pretty cool!

 

Lol you need to look at the people buying the new Razer Blade Pro. They defend that laptop as if it's the highest end notebook out there.