BGA Venting Thread ;)

I always lol when I see dreamers selling them second hand with dated 7xxM's for $2k.

 

Wow... How are those thermals? A 1080 in a tiny box seems so wrong... or do they just throttle it down so it doesn't generate heat (or run games)? Yikes... how long is the warranty for?

EDIT: I may have a higher tolerance for BGA then some folks here - but I see why this would make @Papusan puke

 

They just gimped the TDP and clocks. Easy fix.

 

Wow, talk about buyer beware... the Razors sure are nice eye candy ... =(

EDIT: Yes, I saw your comments in the owners lounge. Looks like performance is underwhelming...

EDIT: ...and price is overwhelming. That's getting into P870DM3 with dual 1080 territory...

 

Even the new Dell Precisions look underwhelming to me personally.

Im not sure why the emphasis is on getting thinner and thinner instead of packing more in the package. Probably want people to get the docks for them I would guess...

 

The one piece of good news is that my new Latitude works with my 5 or so year old Latitude dock.

I agree with you guys though. I would,not pay big bucks for a current gen Dell bus laptop.

The good news is you can definitely get them cheap as @Papusan pointed out.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

@FredSRichardson @bloodhawk why would someone pay thousands of dollars for this

Razer Blade's cooling system, btw. Also get a load of that soldered RAM!

It's like their "engineers" said one day, "let's make a direct contact heatpipe cooler" without looking at how any other manufacturer did it. Also that cost saving measure of only using 3 screws for the perfect heatpipe to die contact. I bet Dell took notes from them for their Alienware 15 r3.

 

Dont worry you can always upgrade the CPU, oh wait...

Well then you can always upgrade the RAM to alleviate CPU bottleneck in high load sce- oh wait...

Well then maybe the GP- nvm.

Then you get posts like this, I was confirming the SSD before clowning on it. I hate to hate where its not deserved.

http://imgur.com/kaQYvk3

How being able to upgrade the SSD in 2016-2017 is a selling point ill never know.

 

I think I saw you guys discussing those triangular heat sinks on one of the De- Alienware threads, something about the core temps being non-uniform due to poor heat sink contact.

Wow, surface mount RAM, CPU, GPU ... it's a cell phone! Well, I guess the SSD isn't surface mount - they have to save some new surprise for the 2017 version =P

 

Beats me. But I was actually surprised how ignorant and miss informed people are .
Slap in a gimped 1080 and a mediocre processor add a small 230w brick. And people are happy. Did I mention for $4000?

 

Woops, I think I was getting you and @EmberV confused - yes I was impressed by your patient advise on the RBP 2017 thread =)

I can see two types of people buying $4K laptops: enthusiasts who know what a $4K laptop should be and non-enthusiasts who are willing to pay $4K for what a laptop might be. Even for that second group, I think a small amount of research is going to turn them away from this one...

 

Eww those old looking copper pipes

 

I think it's clear that BGA here is a hot-bed political issue. How far to the left you are depends on how much you are willing to spend on a BGA system. The far left being $0 and the far right being >$3500 (i.e. the new RBP...).

As in politics, those with a higher level of education tend to move towards the left =)

I certainly started center right before joining this forum and I've shifted further left since starting this thread. But I am still a moderate. After all I did just buy a Clevo BGA system and I'm actually pretty happy with that decision.
EDIT: I will say I'm not certain that I would buy a gaming BGA laptop next time around.

For those who identify with the far left, how do you feel about Clevo selling BGA systems? Is this a good way for them to subsidize the other things they do well (i.e. develop enthusiast grade socketed hardware)? Or are you worried this is a slippery slope and it might impact their socketed offerings?

 

Personally I'm fine with BGA under the $2k mark. But the ridiculous pricing on some.of the new ones is just retarted atm.

 

I hold a similar view.

Like when the P650RG(?) was 1100 on mythologics site for a short while, I think it was a 4720hq / 980m system which is the same price I paid for my y510p 755m SLI laptop probably a year before it. Thats something I can appreciate.

Please correct if mistaken

 

@Papusan @Phoenix @TBoneSan @Kent T @Mr. Fox @Blacky

I really wanted to hear how you feel about Clevo making BGA laptops.

Do you think this threatens there commitment to socketed laptop options (i.e. a slippery slope) or is it a relatively benign way to keep up the revenue stream so they can keep making socketed machines?

 

I hope not, because if Clevo stop making laptops with sockets and slots then that will leave people like me with nothing worthy of considering for purchase. If the day comes that BGA is the only option then I will get the cheapest piece of trash available from Dell or Acer and move back to desktops. We are already on the brink of that disaster right now. The only new Clevo I would consider purchasing today I already have. The Clevo P7XX family of notebooks have some engineering defects that I do not want to deal with.

The only other viable laptop (Tornado F5) is not a Clevo. I am not sure about what MSI's commitment is for the long term regarding that model or its equivalent. Hopefully that or a 17-inch variation will evolve and be available for many more generations, but MSI has historically limited their halfhearted contribution to crippled BGA turdbook offerings.

It is really sad that in a sea full of fancy schmancy notebook makes and models only two are actually acceptable options for performance notebook enthusiasts. BGA has been around a long time and I never cared because its existence never impaired my ability to choose from a list of at least a few awesome products that I deem to be acceptable. Unfortunately, that cancer has metastasized and now it is an impairment and an impediment. I have no intention of embracing this change in notebooks. There is no incentive to accept mediocrity as the status quo. I will continue to reject this garbage indefinitely. I consider the offering of it to hard core gamers and enthusiasts to be an assault on our intelligence.

 

I think Clevo has shown that they are going to be around to support the enthusiasts. Speculation, but I think they are happy to cater and make bank to the 5 percenters that the other sellouts have ditched. I'd hope it's clear to Clevo by now that if they were to offer BGA only that they wouldn't see that 5 percent move over to Soldered junk.
My other concern is the price they'll make upgradable components on their new format. If it's too expensive, that could just as easily crush the upgrade culture we're all fighting for.

 

Is this "5 percent(ers)" rhetoric, or extrapolation?

 

I had given up on the idea of high performance gaming laptops for years before revisiting it a few months back. My prior solution was to give up portability but instead buy a monitor stand with arm for couch top computing. This was okay, but every time I had the move the thing it was a pain and getting the monitor in the right position was difficult.

I also went with a giant server size box. A mini-ITX could solve that problem (with desktop gtx1080 and i7-6700k).

But does there exist a way of taking desktop quality keyboards and displays and putting them in your lap? This would at least allow for semi-portable couch-top computing.

I agree that a really high end mobile system (laptop) where the most expensive components are not socketed really doesn't make sense... unless you can get very good 5 year coverage...

 

Aaack... pains me to hear the P750DM2-G is not all it could be =(

I wish the MSI Tornado F5 was available through other resellers (like HID) , but it looks pretty nice.

 

Not only 15R3. The whole AWbook line!! From the wimpy 13 up to the "fat" boy 17R4
And it looks like Razer's engineers have designed the heatsink up side down

 

The actual model is the MSI 16L13. There is an owner's lounge over here (if you have not found it) http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...nado-f5-owners-and-discussions-lounge.797128/

 

Yes! I couldn't find the 16L13 anywhere other than Eurocomm - not even on the MSI website!

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

BGA or not does not matter a lot to me.The MXM boards are so expensive that it isnt really an option for me compared to just buying a new laptop. Batteries only last well about 2 years, so that needs to be replaced, CPU upgrading is not really a thing in my opinion. For example the Kaby lake 7700K is now out in the wild and its just the same 6700K skylake CPU with a new coat on. Yeah you can clock it slightly higher but clock for clock its exactly the same. You cannot use an upcoming cannon lake CPU in the current 1151 sockers anyway. So in the end you only get a very very minor upgrade.

Also the current MXM boards constantly change shape and specifications. If it was just as desktop PC upgrades it would be great. But it isnt. 800+ euro's for a board that in a desktop costs not even 400 euro is a joke.

The AW heatsinks are already rectified and being shipped out as we speak. It sucked but it is fixed. Just like with the P870 and their vapor chamber warped heatsinks.

In the end the current AW line are one of the coolest running Pascal notebooks on the market.

 

You can use an external keyboard, but I don't know of a good way to use a display panel in your lap. I just have a lapdesk and set my U3 cooler and notebooks on top of the cooler on the lap desk and use a hard mousepad and mouse on the arm of my recliner. Works great.

I have two... not exactly the same brand, but same design and size as this one... https://www.amazon.com/LapGear-Executive-LapDesk-45188-Mahogany/dp/B000U1Y532

CyberPower sells in as one of the Fangbook models, but it is lower spec and 1060 is the best GPU they offer. You're better off with the Tornado F5. @Eurocom Support should be offering it with even better specs than the current model very soon.

 

I was going to ask about MXM. I have a sense that a lot of people are disappointed by the lack of upgrade options between generations. But at least with an MXM GPU you can replace the GPU if there is a failure.

The CPU is a different story. In addition to part replacement, with the socketed version you have a desktop quality component - not a throttled flavor created for BGA.

BTW, is there any difference in performance between the MXM and BGA version of the GTX 10XX GPUs?

 

This is what I used in the past:



("the easychair mount"). That with a keyboard in the lap worked pretty well, but the position was limited (and a pain if you switch chairs...).

It's a cool machine! I think if I was in the market I would wait until HIDevolution carries it.

 

The problem is this latest generation, from what I understand the newer GPU's dont support LVDS and also are of a different form factor from MXM 3.0b which is in large part what is restricting upgrades of late

 

Constantly? So, basically like one time since 2007 or 2008, right? I think we saw the same problem when desktops moved from AGP to PCIe, so it's not really a huge problem unless your timing for buying a new laptop sucked and you bought one right before the change took place. I did and it sucked. I was mad about it, but it was already done. My bad for not being able to see into the future at the time. We're probably past the state of transition now. Otherwise, it's a non-issue at this point. I've moved on and embracing the new size/shape with capacity for more insane performance and more stuff on the PCB than the older/smaller MXM version. I think it's a good thing having the extra potential with the larger PCBs, auxiliary power input, etc. even though it hurts that I cannot really upgrade El Cazador now. But, at least it not soldered garbage... that matters more to me.

 

No.

The heatsink still has the dinky 3rd mounting arm, this arm is considerably weaker on the 17 compared to the 15 which you can bend much higher without the worry of metal fatigue. The lastest 1080 models come with extra thermal paste which they THINK will help the uneven pressure issue.



No, I worked on 2 17R4s and 4 15R3s and I wouldn't even say that they're the best. The MSi machines take the crown in thermal department (as it does not have Clevo's crooked heatsink issue).

I never said that it was the best, what I said was the laptop is very well balanced in all aspects. More like "jack of all trades but master of none."

 

@Mr. Fox - is there any difference in performance (generally) between the MXM versions of the GPUs and the BGA versions? Do you see the same built in throttling issues?

 

No difference really.

Just problem with bga is that it encourages heatsink corner cutting so you don't get as much performance on ambient.


EDIT: Also the tdp is manufacturer adjustable, the MSi and Clevo cards have been confirmed to take 180w, the power limit is identical to the standard GTX1080FE.

 

It will vary by artificial limits imposed by OEMs and how much emphasis they place on QC. One of the most grievous problems with BGA is that it is disposable filth that requires a motherboard replacement if only one component has issues. Another tragic norm is that the BGA CPUs are generally low quality chips that run hotter, take more voltage, and almost all of them have been castrated in terms of TDP. The secondary issues are like what @Mobius 1 mentioned with OEMs cutting corners and being sloppy, and cramming too much junk into an undersized chassis so they have to gimp it to keep it from burning up. If you get a poorly binned CPU or GPU you can't go shopping for a better one and sell your old one to make up the bulk of the cost. If you have a good CPU and/or GPU that runs cooler, with less voltage, and overclocks better than average and the machine gets the motherboard replaced under warranty it may not cost you the soul of your firstborn son, but it's a flip of the coin if the replacement part is going to be good or a piece of crap with a poorly binned CPU and/or GPU.

The list of reasons BGA sucks is much longer than the short list of subjective OEM-centric/anti-customer benefits to using such a grossly inferior implementation of technology that narrow-minded imbeciles and control freaks have forced upon consumers.

 

I need 1.38v to run 4.2GHz on this 6820HK. Generally 1.32+

While the 6700K requires as low as 1.18v lol

 

Yep... 4.6 to 4.7GHz on all cores is generally not an issue with stock voltage with most 6700K. Mine does 4.8GHz with around 1.350V.

 

Close to 1.4v the chip or mb will try not to self destruct itself, I can run 4.4 all cores with 1.42v but it'll throttle in less than 10secs.

When I get the GT73VR and flash it with SVET's bios this might be a different case. I don't see that many option on the 17/15 pascal AW bioses.

How low can your 6700K go on idle though?

 

I am not sure what your question means. Can you elaborate a bit so I can understand the question? I have mine set to 4.7GHz and use it that way all of the time. As I am surfing the forum now the CPU is 45°C and steady clocks, fans totally silent. I don't know if that answers your question or if you are asking about something else. As is normally the case, idle voltage is always higher than load voltage.

 

If you try to optimize the system for least amount of power used, how low can the power consumption get when idling at desktop?

 

Hmmm. You know, I'm really not sure. I've never had any legitimate reason to care about power conservation. I usually focus on trying to consume and convert as much power to performance as possible. Since it has never been important to me, I have never tried to do that on any of my laptops.

If I simply switch to Windows Power Saver profile my 6700K is using only 0.798V and 3.02W without touching anything else. I suspect if I set the CPU to stock it might go even lower, but don't really see any point in investigating that.

 

@Mobius 1 and @Mr. Fox - This is a very interesting topic and I was wondering this exact question. How would battery life work out for a 6700K system vs the BGA stuff if there were no discrete GPU to worry about?

Can one use tools like throttlestop to reduce power consumption so the 6700K behaves like its BGA counterpart in terms of power consumption (i.e. with voluntary throttling)?

 

I was wondering about overclocking and I wondered what it would take to push my 6820HK. I'll have to see if I can get up to 4.2 (I didn't bother trying over 4.0, but I also didn't change the voltage). Based on the temps I'm seeing, I might have a lot of head room.

 

Throttling is not induced, it's the CPU feature to clock as low as 800mhz when nothing is really being processed at the background.

With 6700K can probably go even lower since it doesn't use IGPU in power saving mode. Granted if the bios has capabiltity to fully disable the iGPU.

I believe the last model of CPU without the iGPU part is the 2550K or 2700K? Intel should release those models again because it would really appeal to the DTR market clevo/msi16l13

 

It has a voltage limit of 1.4 something on my G752VS and 2x17R4+3x15R3

Maybe prema can help if you have the P6xx model clevo

With the OS optimized and cpu undervolted+power saving tweak my 15R3 battery last 7+ hours (30~ bright, 4K)

 

Yes, I understand, I meant that one can lower the clock rate (and temps) in throttlestop to save power. But perhaps lower power mode does a better jobs of this.

Hmm... but if the iGPU is turned off wouldn't you have to use a dGPU? In terms of net power this wouldn't be a gain.

What I'm really getting at is the question of power draw when comparing say a i7-6820HK to the i7-6700K. The claim I've read is that the 6820HK uses much less power. But I'm not sure I believe that. Actually, my idle temp is like 39-42C - pretty close to what @Mr. Fox is reporting for his 6700K. Sure, if you OC both processors you use more power for the 6700K, but as @Mr. Fox pointed out this is scaling linearly with performance (it may not be more watts / mips but it is more mips).

 

Yes, I have the P650RS and looking forward to some @Prema magic! =) Though who knows how much magic this BGA CPU is really capable of (frankly I don't expect a whole lot).

7 hours is impressive. I've seen reports of I think 3.5hrs on the P650RS. Maybe some optimization will lead to more. 4K screen too? I love mine but worried it would draw a bit more power. Hmm... maybe your battery is twice as big? =D

 

The battery on Alienware is 99whr.

Not sure if P6xx have optimus or not. Probably smaller battery too.

 

The P650RS has a 60wh battery. It has MSHYBRID which I believe is similar to Optimus. I think the dGPU may be turned off when running on battery.

 

There's your problem.

 

Oh, right 60% battery ~> 1/2 battery life =)

The AW is actually only about a pound heavier and an inch wider (12 vs 11).

But if I did this all over again I might get the Eurocom F5 / MSI 16L13 if I could make it work (though I don't know much about Eurocom). Next time around I want to get a desktop CPU and hopefully a socketed GPU.