BGA Venting Thread ;)

You're ignoring the use of ECC DRAM and VRAM which could be very important depending on the workload (and the primary reason to use a E3-M equivalent.
Furthermore you picked the top Xeon model which is always double the price for no reason. The RRP for the E3-1545Mv5 is $679 and it's clock is only 100mhz lower with identical turbo steps.

That pic is actually of an LGA small socket Xeon (ie 1150) and it's Haswell (so EoL). Kaby Lake-DT has just released though which are the LGA 1151 equivalents. They also have a 72/73W TDP which is interesting despite the top model being clocked almost the same as the old 6700K. For reference the Xeon E3-1275v5 is the Skylake version so it's probably a better comparison.

Personally, I wish they stuck one of these in a laptop instead: http://ark.intel.com/products/93365

16 cores, 32 threads, 65W TDP, integrated dual 10gbit, 128GB ECC ram support, 40 PCIE lanes and about 30% faster in multi-thread performance of the 7700K. THAT would be a good portable render rig. Hell, the default config doesn't even have a fan on the CPU (active cooled by case fans).

 

Yeah they do, especially if we talk about 4k gaming.

 

If a person starts to compare a xeon with a i7 and tries to prove that xeon is worse, that's the moment you start ignoring the person completely because he has obviously no idea what he's talking about.

I even made a xeon build that is cheaper than his notebook, yet he complety ignores it because he knows it would destroy his notebook. I think he doesn't want his notebook to be not the best thing in the world.

Also, that xeon is stock passive cooled?

 

Most of them are designed to run in a 1U chassis with air flow handled by 40mm fans. The "active cooled" boards you can get just have the 40mm stuck on the heatsink like this:


Also, it's BGA

 

Oh sweet jesus.

Now thats efficiency. They should start making those in notebooks, I bet people like Georgel would love that thing. I'm seriously impressed by the efficiency of that thing.

 

Yeah, Simply pick your powerful home build computer, cables, keyboard, monitor, speakers, mouse in a small bag and hang it over your arm, jump in the car, bus, train or bicycle for a trip down to your buddy, co-worker or even a quick trip down to your cabin by the sea or up in the mountains. Yeah, great with lots of power on the go... Or you can have both, as some have And who compare homebuild desktops with +140w Xeon-Hedt processors vs. laptop hardware? I understand.

 

There are people out there who value their time and cannot afford to lose a big chunk of performance/time because of a notebook. Also in most workplaces there are monitors, keyboards etc.

This is fairly portable to me.

If your time is valuable enough to complain about the few percentage difference of a 7700K and 7820HK then going for a xeon based desktop is a must have but then again, I'm replying to a guy that has irrational hatred towards BGA chips and owns a notebook with BGA chips and calling it "BGA KILLER" in allcaps.

 

You should actually read my post (the one we're talking about). It's not homebuilt, and it's 65W TDP.

I've used several of these kinds of machines. Usually lower end 8-core or 4-core variants because, funnily enough, the 16-core one is more power than needed

The SuperMicro 16-core chassis even theoretically fits a dual slot GPU:

 

You are honestly giving me evil ideas .

 

Please note that this is the last time no infractions are handed out.
Insulting someone and claiming that wasn't an insult is beyond ridiculous.
I left a post by Mr. Fox with a compilation of "non-insults" for future reference.

This time I had to delete quite a few posts even though I did not really feel like it - unfortunately it's not my job to redact and rewrite those posts, respective authors should do that.

 

Note all the silicon is identical, lower TDPs are typically an indication that under the heaviest loads the chip will slow down as yes 3.8GHz is a lot more efficient per Mhz than 4.2GHz.

 

Oh, priiiice

From this perspective, I get that Clevo still makes best - bang - for - the - buck notebooks regardless whether we're talking about workstations or gaming laptops. Neat

As for the other things... Having to relocate doesn't mean that you can carry anything. P775 is clearly not easy to carry. It is heavy, and its AC adapter is bulky and heavy. But the few of us who really need power on the go, really need something like this.

 

Right, but not the ones that are important... or expensive. It's the most important and expensive chips where it sucks to be shackled by BGA trash welded to the motherboard. BGA has good applications and bad ones. Where it involves the CPU and/or GPU on products that cost more than $300-$500 is where BGA becomes a garbage collector's solution to technology.

 

See, your sockets mean nothing if your latest hardware can't fit the socket. The P750DM was touted as the most upgradeable notebook. When the Pascal MXMs were released, none but the 1060 could fit in that. I assure you that if you want to chase the highest benchmark scores (which is a wasteful, pointless and frankly frustrating exercise), your Z170 chipset and your LGA 1151 socket will become obsolete next year. So much for 'upgradeability'.

My own notebook has an rPGA socket, with a 4710MQ CPU. I can't upgrade it to the latest and greatest, so why the heck do I need to waste space on a socket? The W230SS motherboard is only slightly cheaper than the P640RE motherboard. One has a PGA CPU, the other has a BGA one. Price goes out of the window.

 

GPU is apparently cheap and not important. Even the MXM ones or the desktop ones, are all BGA on a PCB.

And now we're talking. You're exacly right. It's not the BGA chip that's bad, it's the implementation that is poor on some systems.

Well it isnt as upgradable as a PC that's for sure, but imagine you're a user that has limited money and wants a new notebook. He would then buy an i5 barebones with a weak graphicscard and would be happy to upgrade it over time. I think for that alone having a socketed CPU and MXM GPU is nice to have.

But once we talk i7 CPU u're right. You can play any game on ultra settings 1080p on a notebook with an i7 sandy bridge and have same or roughly the same performance as a 7700K CPU based Clevo given that you have atleast 8GB RAM and same GPU.

 

There's a point where having to replace a board for a CPU / GPU problem or vice versa becomes an issue. Whether that point is at the $300-$500 range or not isn't really clear but your point stands. Performance aside, repairing BGA models is problematic in many cases and should not be considered ideal. In many cases the lack of options practically makes the unit disposable and at higher prices that gets a little silly.

 

Well yeah, when it comes to repairing I guess it is easier to replace the MXM card instead of having to solder a new GPU chip on the board. CPU's are actually really stable and hard to kill these days tho so I don't really know if a BGA vs Socketed CPU in terms of repair really is that much of an issue.

 

Regarding "upgradeability" I hope you understand this is exactly the same for desktops.
Btw I wonder what pc users (who prefer desktops) have said, if all they could get, was desktop MB with welded on BGA chips. Aka same core i7 BGA chips as notebooks. And of course same for graphics. I expect this thread would be peanuts against what would come in desktop forums.

 

As the vid hmscott linked and I commented on mentioned, it's a poor investment to buy a BGA resoldering rig, and most places 1)won't do it, 2)won't be able to get BGA chips and 3)won't get good ones when they do. It almost forces repairs to be done by the manufacturer directly where your in-house IT or local mom and pop repair shop can handle LGA, and makes the entire matter expensive, inconvenient and wasteful.

 

I do not recall that this was ever a point of relevance in the hatred of BGA garbage. I don't understand the point in mentioning this since it is not a talking point. You cannot install a 5960X in a Z170 desktop motherboard either. So, what does that rationale have to do with the cost of tea in China?

BGA turdbook fanboys always harp on the upgrade thing and totally ignore the point that BGA haters make about repairability and option to swap a crappy sample for one that is binned better. I guess that helps them feel better about choosing an overpriced disposable piece of junk instead of something of better quality. The OEMs and ODMs love those customers because they get to sell them more of the same garbage more often. Sometimes CPU upgrades are possible, and when they are that is icing on the cake. But, that is not the primary basis for BGA hate. If a person made a decision to save a few bucks by going with a cheaper CPU (say a low end i3 or i5) rather than ordering the highest i7 CPU available for that socket and chipset on day one, then upgrades are always possible when the CPU is in a socket.

Yes, this is one of the most compelling reasons to avoid BGA trashbooks. If the craptop is only $300 to $500 it is not a huge loss and you can afford to toss it into a dumpster when it dies. That is about the same price as a replacement motherboard for a machine with socketed CPU and MXM, so there is not much difference in the loss from a customer's perspective. When we venture into the vicinity of the $2000 and up price range, BGA purchases reflect poor judgment on the part of the buyer. It is also poor judgment to accept such an option on the basis of principle. Stupidity begats more stupidity and the ODMs and OEMs will continue producing disposable trashbooks because not enough people know enough to vote "no" with their wallets.

 

Except for the very logical and clean explanations for why we buy what we buy, I found this much simpler explanation which will satisfy everyone

Now everybody can make peace and be friends

All that matters in the end is that we're all happy!

 

Heck, you can just clean the MXM card's contacts; some GPU issues are caused by the lack of good contact with the mobo.

For BGA GPUs, you can solve this only with a BGA reballing facility, and even then, the success rate is much lower than a MXM card having similar issue and cause.

Take it from someone who has had experience working with both types of laptops

 

Bad example...

Those are 2 different scenarios that are mutually exclusive. An MXM GPU can have BGA related substrate issues which can require reballing (because they are in fact BGA) but an integrated GPU (ie integrated with the motherboard) cannot have MXM contact issues.

When it comes to failures or repairs of notebook GPUs you have 4 realistic scenarios (depending on in warranty or out of warranty):

1. BGA laptop will need the entire motherboard replaced. Under warranty it'll go back to the ODM and costs nothing.
2. BGA out of warranty will have to go back to the ODM and probably cost a LOT of money unless you're in a country with good consumer protection laws. E.g. in Australia you must have a mandatory 1 year warranty on all products. Furthermore with something like a laptop you may still be entitled to a repair beyond that 1-year period (assuming you haven't opted for a longer warranty)
3. MXM laptop only needs the MXM replaced. If it's IN warranty, it'll probably get shipped back to the ODM anyway, MXM gets replaced and it costs nothing.
4. MXM out of warranty can either be replaced DiY, 3rd party or ODM. Either way will require sourcing an MXM module which is quite expensive.

Unlike desktop hardware, the ODMs are in control of building the MXM modules (which is also why they now vary wildly from the standard). Until that problem can be solved, which I HIGHLY suspect will never happen, then it's really not all that useful to actually be able to replace MXM modules.

A quick check on ebay lists a 980M kit at $700 USD or a 970M at $600 USD! Plus you have to make sure you get a compatible one (ie G-Sync or not). I went with Maxwell since they're the generation that will have lost warranty support by now and so this probably applies most to them.

The market is just not setup for it and the nature of laptops being small doesn't favour modular design.

In my opinion, the BEST possible outcome at this point is to MAKE the standard. I've harped on about it many times, but get some good engineers, get some backers and start a bloody Kickstarter already. There's almost 100 freakin pages of back and forth about "BGA vs LGA" and not a bloody thing about actually DOING anything about it.

Design a system that is modular by nature, use an open EFI BIOS/bootloader so the USERS control stuff like overclocking and also allows you to retroactively work around MXM support. Using something like Coreboot will also get a LOT of attention from open computing and security groups. Particularly security has been brought into sharp focus recently due to numerous NSA/CIA leaks regarding privacy etc.

 

This is the point!

Well, let me say the following:

I could do that right now, but the market is not strong enough. Outsourcing everything and actually making the thing is nowhere near as hard as selling this type of machine.

Imagine that the first pieces cannot be cheaper than 10.000$ per piece due to the technical impairments imposed by a fresh product. Assuming this price for a high end model.

This means that it is possible, even with a conceptually indestructible design, but it will cost buyers a ton. The main advantage of the actual Clevos is that they're not that expensive for what they are.

 

It would indeed be potentially costly.

As you say Clevos are relatively cheap for what they are and that's the compromise. But you don't get to take the compromise and complain about the compromise at the same time.

Besides, it wouldn't be the first time an existing ODM has used Kickstarter to launch a niche product and secure funding. GPD have recently done this twice with the already released WIN and the upcoming 7" GPD Pocket PCs. The GPD Pocket IndieGoGo is at 2.5 MILLION USD in funding which is absolutely incredible and equates to almost 6300 units which are effectively "pre-sold".

As far as marketability...I'm not sure. You would have to maximise audience hence my suggestion of coreboot or similar open bootloader which would catch a lot of the security crowd. No doubt it'd be a very niche product but I reckon you could probably sell 1000 units if done properly. You could probably offload a fair bit of cost by selling them as barebones (ie no cpu/ram/drives). I'd even strongly consider the possibility of building a regular PCIE GPU in there some how.

 

Well... To include PCIE GPUs, the thickness would go a bit crazy and there's still the problem of airflow.

 

I've always wanted a laptop with PCIE so we could rid ourselves of being so dependant on the goodwill of OEMs making upgrading available.

 

do you know this?

 

There was the MSI GS30 Shadow. @Meaker@Sager used to have one, and I am not sure if anyone has tested it with the GTX 1080 Ti yet, but if it worked I wouldn't be surprised if it performed better than any of the laptops with the GTX 1080. It's too bad MSI never took that concept, and built something like the 16L13 (with Z170 / 7700K) but with the MXM dock. Something like that would be a pretty awesome setup, and probably be a great portable machine to use as a laptop as well.

 

That would be great if they could keep the price down. I would expect something like that to cost more than a more powerful desktop + a cheaper 15" laptop, making it less practical.

 

Exactly. Next will be welded on ram, wifi and finally storage aka you can opt for ready-made 256-512-1024 or even welded on 2048GB ssd's. Hope you selected the biggest welded on hardware package!! You are really screwed if you haven't the money there and then(when you pay) And I really hope @Phoenix can choose welded on Intel wifi for the brand he like. Or he must opt for another Taptop brand. Aka MSI with the "Steelseries" keyboard come with only KILLER welded on and he is screwed

 

Yeah that did peak my interest. It's a shame they never refined it. The way it docked on that box was so impracticable. It made the keyboard unusable and I think it still needed an external monitor. At that point, there was little point having it.

I'd still love to see a good solution on an external GPU too, that doesn't gimp PCIE speeds or get bandwidth starved using the machines internal monitor. Also the internal monitor needs to be 120hz..and LGA.. one can dream.

 

The GS30 was designed to be used with an external keyboard, mouse, and display.

I just got an Akitio Node in the mail yesterday. Its a very solid box. Combined with the Zbook in my sig, you can get very great mobility and battery life, while having great gaming performance at a desk. Yes, it is BGA, but its got much better build quality than most consumer / gaming notebooks.

 

did you test that hp zbook g3+akitio node? fps in gaming sessions? what gpu?

 

It's got Thunderbolt 3 ports which should be all you need to be compatible with an external GPU, the rest should hopefully be software/driver side.

 

i'm asking because there are some oem like acer which don't give new drivers/firmware for tb3 controller

lenovo officially dislikes egpu

 

You can get the latest firmware as needed but it's not being specifically worked on for eGPU nor is anything being done to stop it.

 

What if Mr. Azor had said the same ? That the new AW "Echo" BGA Turd line Was A Huge Failure!!
(Aka apologizing for missteps in its product design).
And immediately started with a re-design and went back to socket hardware. When Apple dare, why not Dellienware? Oh'well, Portable Gaming is probably more importent The main reason for use of the biggest battery in AW's history.

 

Yes, I have it going right now with a GTX 1070 Founder's Edition. I didn't get a GTX 1080 because @bloodhawk mentioned that it was not good price / performance when he tested his P870DM with an eGPU a few months ago.

The performance is about 80% of what the Tornado F5 can do with a built in GTX 1070. The price was pretty close too. $1000 for the Zbook, $300 for the Node, and $400 for the GTX 1070. The Tornado F5 was about $1700 for a similar basic config, but that is only with a 1 year warranty while the HP has a 3 year onsite warranty.

If you want to do BGA, this is a pretty good approach. You trade off some performance for travel weight and better warranty. It also stays quite a bit more comfortable than the Tornado F5 while gaming because the palm rest does not get as hot.

 

Yeh, I'm not entirely sure how to work it, but one thought would be to limit it to standard length cards (ie "reference) and use a water block instead. That reduces thickness of the cards significantly.
A water cooled ITX card can also get pretty small. Zotac's ITX 1080 is jammed on to a surprisingly small PCB.

The GS30 basically disappeared in favour of eGPU via TB3. Problem is TB3 was not all it was cracked up to be (mainly because Intel shot themselves in the foot by keeping DMI at 4x capacity which severely bottlenecks the whole thing). The only mildy successful variant is the Alienware dock because it's a dedicated PCIE interface to 8x of the CPU lanes.

 

That's why I am holding out a bit more for proper TB3 implementation. I think it being on an Alpine Ridge chip instead of being baked directly onto the CPU plays a part in this

 

Hmm fair enough, maybe I wasn't being clear on my comparison. But I do agree that the marketing is botched to say the least, or more cynically, planned to already fail so to force all of us into BGA (which undoubtedly riled quite a few of us)

 

Yes, having a second chip and sharing the bandwidth will be hurting. On CPU die with dedicated bandwidth would help.

 

It does have teething issues. After some experimenting I found out that you don't want to ever plug / unplug a TB3 device while the machine is asleep. However, the same issue occurs with my HP Thunderbolt 3 Dock, so this isn't limited to just the eGPU.

Akitio DID just release a firmware update for the Node last night though, which greatly improved performance in actual games. I think there was a limitation on the host-to-client bandwidth, and a big thread about it over at the eGPUio forums.

I still think that an LGA system with an eGPU would be pretty awesome. You could even have something like a mobile workstation, with an X99 chipset, 140W processor, small 60W max MXM-A for boot / mobile purposes, then dedicate most of the heatsink to keeping the LGA CPU cooled. It could probably fit in the P775DM3 form factor comfortably. It may even be able to run on a 240W power brick further increasing mobility. I am getting ready to start yet another data-processing heavy project at work, and it would be great to have an extra 2,4, or even 6 cores compared to the what is available with the current LGA laptops.

 

Sleep has been broken since 7, so I'm not terribly surprised by that part.

 

do you have a test in cuda-z before/after?

 

maybe eCPU instead of eGPU

 

Yes, it went from ~1100MB/s to 2100MB/s. Benchmarks didn't go up, but the actual performance in games are better. Much closer to how the Tornado F5 feels.

 

At that point it might just be better to go fully modular. Your unit could be a mobo and a screen, and then could mix and match other components as use required.