BGA Venting Thread ;)

Yeah, I used to dream of that back in 2009.... Unfortunately a modular laptop design would only appeal to enthusiasts, just like project Ara failed despite being a great consumer focused concept.

 

True. My thought was the core unit would appeal to anyone, and then enthusiasts could add parts on their own if they wanted. Like start with a chromebook that has a nice screen, and then have a frame/base that you could put the bigger components/modules into. But getting a wider audience interested in the core unit would be the problem.

 

I tend to agree with you. A modular notebook design that gives the end user (enthusiast or otherwise) free reign to add or remove whatever they wish, whenever they wish, should be appreciated by anyone of ordinary intelligence. Having an expensive product (over $500) where nothing but RAM sticks and storage can be swapped out can only be viewed as a product targeted for the lowest common denominators among those shopping for a notebook.

 

Though knowing makers, just like any other industry, they'd upcharge for the modularity, leaving BGA the more attractive option for the masses, and driving the price up for us.

 

At this point, with all this talk of eCPU/GPU, we may as well use a simple notebook, BGA, with a couple of 10GBASE-T NICs. Offload the workload onto the servers than can handle it. 20 Gbps is plenty of bandwidth: it can handle uncompressed 100 FPS 4K video, with still some overhead left over for audio.

If one is rendering or transcoding or even gaming while unplugged, say in the bus, then he's seriously touched in the head.

 

That's likely coming. There's already hardware that tries to do things like that.

 

why not a PGA laptop like the X220/X230?

 

PGA or not is up to Intel (and now AMD as well) to decide. As @Stooj and I have been saying for the longest time, restricting notebooks to BGA is regrettable, yes, but the solution is not to turn to LGA, which is a desktop part. Screaming bloody murder about it here isn't exactly going to help, either, since this is an echo chamber. As I've said forever, the CPU makers aren't going to care about a tiny forum where something like a couple thousand people visit.

 

Oh'well.

 

It is. I can bet you anything that 90% of the replies in this thread were made either by the OP, yourself, Mr Fox, Mobius, and a handful of the other prominent NBR people, as well as the vendor representatives.

 

See, and that's the thing. You can think that and say it all you want to and it's not ever going to make it true or accurate, and it won't establish either of you as an authority on the subject. It's your personal opinion, and their is nothing wrong with having one. It doesn't make it gospel.

People that just shrug and go with the flow are a major reason they are getting away with it. Encouraging people to be quiet and stop screaming about it is not the right approach. There should be more screaming and more BGA hate, and we should encourage more of it at every opportunity everywhere we go. I share my BGA hate in every forum I visit. That's how you change things, one mind at a time.

Turning to desktop LGA absolutely IS THE SOLUTION if you don't want castrated feces for a notebook. Using BGA mounted CPUs and GPUs in expensive high-end notebooks is a loser's approach and a cop-out, and half-assed to put it as nicely as I can. Did it ever occur to you that we actually want desktop parts in our beast notebooks? I would not want to ever go back to using mobile CPUs in notebooks even if Intel went back to sockets. I want the more power-hungry robust desktop processors and loathe the fact that the selection is so small. Not saying we have to the be same. There was nothing stopping people from choosing the chintzy BGA options before that basically became the only option available.

Expecting us to accept BGA trash is unrealistic and it ain't gonna happen in my lifetime. And, while I am still kicking I intend to give them nothing but hell about their lameness. Get used to the echo chamber. It's not going away.

Perhaps part of the problem is some people think of themselves as being the anointed authority on a given matter. Keep saying it. We don't care if you think the CPU makers are going to care or not. One thing is for certain... if you say nothing and keep buying their garbage they won't care. At least some of us are doing our best to make them care, and don't have a problem resorting to mutiny if that's what it takes. From a tiny spark comes an inferno. You get to choose, bro. You can be part of the problem or part of the solution. Enjoy the Kool-Aid if you choose to be part of the problem. It's also your choice if you don't like the echo chamber to leave it. You're not obligated to be here if you don't like it. You're welcome to stay as well. Your choice., but it's going to get more shrill and belligerent, not less.

You can say small voices don't matter all you want to. That's what the losing side of the presidential election thought a few months ago. Turns out they were wrong. Smart people will only put up with stupid for so long. We are appealing to the smart people to be smart and stop doing their best impression of stupid. (Edit: that's not a political statement. It's an example. Despise not small beginnings.) My effort is focused on motivating lazy people to act on what they already know is right rather than attempting to cure mental illness or casting pearls before swine.

 

Create the inferno, then, instead of putting your spark in a concrete, air-tight room. Make a post on /r/pcmasterrace, cross-post it to /r/gaming, /r/pcgaming, /r/Intel, /r/AMD and /r/nVidia. Get hundreds of thousands of upvotes, equally as many comments. Create dips in those companies' stocks. Make sure news sites link to your posts. Make it known. Don't just say, but do. This is what @Stooj and I have been saying forever, and you just turn it back to us, saying that we're 'drinking the Kool-Aid' (what the heck is Kool-Aid, anyway? Sounds terrible). I'm trying to be reasonable, and you're being idealistic to the point of fanaticism.

BGA rampage slaughtering machine? As @Stooj says, your 750 W notebook is nothing compared to those supercomputers which require entire cities to dim their lights to power these monstrosities. And yet they do real work like pursuing treatments for cancer and predicting the weather with computational fluid dynamics, not chasing benchmark scores.

As for LGA being the solution: it isn't. I'm sorry, but throwing a 100+ W solution into a notebook doesn't make sense. How do you jam a 7700K into a chassis like the P640HK or MSI GS43VR?

 

You don't. Nobody is saying you need to. Here is where you are not connecting the dots, bro. People that want 100W+ CPUs in a notebook are not interested in having that kind of CPU in small portable computing devices like those models you mentions. You already have exactly what you need with BGA in that. What we don't want is those same puny and lame turd chips in large notebooks that are marketed as high performance products. I don't want a 5960X in my Kindle Fire 7 tablet and I don't want a 7700K in my LG smartphone/phablet. But, hell yeah... I DO WANT THOSE in my big monsterbook, and don't want a castrated panty-waist 45W turd-dozer chip in my beast. And, I want others that own what should be equally competent products (MSI Titan, Acer Predator 17 and 21X, etc.) to not have to put up with wimpy soldered CPU trash in their big, expensive and performance-oriented machines. It is sinful that they are doing so, and deplorable that is what they are being offered by the clowns that manufacture them.

Are you offering to set the example for us and help?

You do realize that most of those social media outlets are completely dominated by technically ignorant adults, stupid children and BGA Kool-Aid drinking brand fanboys, right? This is casting pearls before swine. I try to focus my efforts where I think they will have the most impact, and those venues are overrun with retards, most of whom don't even know what BGA is or why it's bad. All that some of the sharper ones are smart enough to know is the piece of junk they bought really sucks and they think that is normal. (Sadly, it is actually becoming normal, LOL.)

I understand you are trying to be realistic, and to that extent I am appreciative. I do the best I can with the time I have, and you will see evidence of my BGA hate in many places. I do have to work for a living and I can only do so much by myself. That's why I appeal to those that know better to join the fight.

Edit: Maybe they do not have Kool-Aid where you are from? Here is what it is: Kool-Aid | Wikipedia

Here is where the expression comes from: "Drinking the Kool-Aid" | Wikipedia

"Drinking the Kool-Aid" is an idiom commonly used in the United States that refers to any person or group who knowingly goes along with a doomed or dangerous idea because of peer pressure. The phrase oftentimes carries a negative connotation when applied to an individual or group. It can also be used ironically or humorously to refer to accepting an idea or changing a preference due to popularity, peer pressure, or persuasion.​

The phrase derives from the November 1978 Jonestown deaths, in which over 900 members of the Peoples Temple, who were followers of Jim Jones, died, many of whom committed suicide by drinking a mixture of a powdered soft drink flavoring agent (Flavor Aid and possibly Kool-Aid) laced with cyanide and prescription drugs Valium, Phenergan, and chloral hydrate, while the rest of the members, including 89 infants and elderly, were killed by forced ingestion of the poison.​

 

Works both ways mate.

Way to miss the point. The POINT, is if it bothers you so much, why not actually come up with a solution and DO something about it. Actually do some WORK and get the ball rolling. Gather some investors/engineers/marketers and establish a startup. Hell, I might even support it and lend whatever expertise I have on the case. If you create a product of value to people, they will use it. It's as simple as that.

There's an old saying: If you want something done, do it yourself.

There it is people.

I'll let others draw their own conclusions, but to me, that reads suspiciously as: "we (the BGA hating crowd) are smart people and therefore the opposite of us (those who are fine with BGA) are either stupid, or acting stupid".

 

There's the T version mate of desktop CPUs. I would go with those: see 7700T: https://ark.intel.com/products/97122/Intel-Core-i7-7700T-Processor-8M-Cache-up-to-3_80-GHz
http://www.cpu-world.com/Compare/517/Intel_Core_i7_i7-7700_vs_Intel_Core_i7_i7-7700T.html

It looks like you lose 20% performance for half the TDP.

 

I was talking about physically fitting the CPU into the notebook. The LGA socket is huge.

At any rate, I've gotten my answer from @Mr. Fox, whose opinion is regrettable. Basically he considers anything with performance below that of a top-end machine as 'turd' (to use the non-offensive term), and doesn't appear to understand the purpose of 'performance brackets'.

I tell you this directly: if you want the top end components in a notebook, be prepared for compromises, shortcuts, and also be prepared to empty your wallet for it, because such a use case is a niche in a niche. Sure, go ahead and complain and rant. But no one really will do anything much about it, because they have your money anyways.

If you want to do something about it—then start a company, or use Kickstarter. Make a technically compelling argument for the return of sockets and modular components. Create research-backed CAD drawings of your notebook mockups, or even redesign MXM from scratch. The key word is the technical rigour. Benchmarks aren't rigorous enough, peer-reviewed research papers are.

As the saying goes:

.

 

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Eurocom-unveils-lightweight-PX7-Pro-SE-Mobile-Server.211668.0.html
Eurocom unveils lightweight PX7 Pro SE Mobile Server
The notebook is designed for heavy server loads and packs an Intel Xeon E3-1505M, up to 64 GB of ECC memory, and up to 16 GB of RAID 0/1/5 storage.

 

That Xeon E3-1505M doesn't seem much better in performance than a 7700HQ, and well below a 7700K... and way below other desktop CPU's like the 6950K / 6900K / 6850K.

What's the advantage of this CPU over the better performance LGA / BGA CPU's?

 

It supports ECC.

 

That's nice, but ECC doesn't *improve* performance - in fact Xeon CPU's with ECC support are markedly slower than cheaper higher performance CPU's, and I haven't seen situations where ECC made any difference in recent times with todays quality DDR4 memory.

It's debatable, but if your "server" is so critical in catching errors for memory operations, then definitely get ECC memory, but for most situations it's unlikely to make the difference these days.

To ECC or Not To ECC
19 Nov 2015
https://blog.codinghorror.com/to-ecc-or-not-to-ecc/

 

Seriously, what are you not getting? BGA has it's place. Just not in a big high performance DTRs that can afford the space. Machines being sold and marketed as such with BGA for similar prices is absolutely heinous and anti-consumer. That's where a lot of the disdain comes from.
Even if BGA were better performance I still wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole in an expensive high performance DTR. I want to be able to service my own property as I see fit and not be bullied into warrant scams designed for unserviceable items and timed to perfection around planned obsolescence. If you already can't see the writing on the wall look no further than Apple attempting to deconstruct the Right to Repair legislation. Monkey see, monkey do.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/03/industry-and-apple-opposing-right-to-repair-laws/

Your Kickstarter idea is theoretically possible. But not realistic. I'm not going to hire a crew and shoot my own film because I think what's coming out of Hollywood stinks.
As of now no one is forcing me to buy BGA and good socketed solutions will get my money.

 

Pencil-necked over-educated retards require whitepapers. Meanwhile, it is obvious on face value and requires no research for the rest of us. @Ionising_Radiation must have an underlying agenda, isn't paying attention or has a reading comprehension problem. I've already acknowledged there are performance brackets multiple times. The issue is not his performance bracket. The issue is our performance bracket being corrupted by the sub-par BGA garbage and those inferior products being deceptively misrepresented as a high end notebook when they are actually nothing more than just run-of-the-mill low-end consumer trash in a DTR-sized chassis.

But... Yeah, here's an example of compromise in a notebook. LOL.

http://www.3dmark.com/3dm11/12106516

 

So... The final underline of this whole thread is that we don't really want to pay premium for BGA. And I can understand that

I mean,... a CPU costs around 350$. If you pay ~2000$ or more on a laptop, it better be modular

As for laptops under 1000$, I think that under 1000$ region is fine either way. As long as the CPU cooling is implemented well, it shouldn't be a problem. I remember testing a few laptops that are BGA and under 1000$ but that brought in some heat on the CPU, but that's another story for another time

I'm sure there are good ones as well. As for over 2000$ price point... Why not keep it nice and simple and just go on with something that can be repaired if it breaks?
BGA requires whole motherboard - CPU - GPU assembly exchanged for a repair. Can be costly...

 

All excellent points presented accurately.

The article you linked is spot-on... and, the problem is not limited to Apple any more. It's directly related to BGA hate as well.

This is also the driving force behind Micro$haft Windows 10 filth, the Redmond Mafia's push for only UEFI Class 3 and soldered BGA feces in trashbooks. It's all about Nazi control freaks creating self-serving monopolies.

Monkey see, monkey do, indeed. It's time to start killing monkeys. They can't be fixed and they deserve to die.

 

Pretty much. BGA make sense for small, compact machines, like netbooks and ultraportables, beyond that ... it's just manufacturers being greedy.

 

I don't mind people buying BGA, they can do their thing and I can do mine. LGA laptops aren't going to go extinct. They will exist in proportion to demand. But I really hate not being able to repair.

 

This must be an typo!! I fixed it for you. But otherwise fully correct. +rep

 

Then why do I see you, @Papusan and co. ****ting on notebooks like the P640HK for having BGA, or 'tripod' or whatever? In that post, he conveniently left out the fact that with a realistic load like Cinebench R15 only, the CPU fully reaches its specified clock speeds with scores typical of the CPU, roughly 735 to 740.

Furthermore, who even said that four screws were a necessity to ensure optimal heatsink-silicon contact? Has it been scientifically proven (oh, wait, to you, scientists are 'pencil-necked over-educated retards', retards who invented that 'BGA JOKEBOOK KILLING SPREE' that you own)? If more screws = better contact, that implies more vertices = better contact, and we all should use ring-shaped neodymium magnets to secure heatsinks to silicon. Good luck with that.

Sure, ask for upgradeability in notebooks that deserve it. I didn't disagree with the fact that notebooks that clearly can handle the extended thermal output of a full-fledged LGA CPU don't come equipped with them, like the MSI GT83VR or that stupidly huge and frankly ridiculous Acer notebook with a curved display. I think that for the price and size, it was a terrible idea to use soldered CPUs. As or the samller notebooks...The Razer Blade and AW13 are definitely overpriced for what they offer (but then again, small electronics have always been more expensive than larger ones; look at mini-ITX vs ATX).

Let me be very clear: what I disagree with, and find ridiculous as hell, is the fact that several users here ( not you, @Mr. Fox) expect smaller machines to perform like the biggest ones, or cherry-pick the worst possible scores and make the machine seem worse than it really is (see above post by Papusan, for example).

Here's my own W230SS with a 4710 MQ running CB R15:



648 is squarely in the median for Core i7-4710MQ benches, by the way. Solid 3.3 GHz on all cores, no thermal throttling.

Compare that with P95 + FurMark, i.e. what has frequently been called an unrealistic, and even unsafe load (I blew a power adaptor trying to run this on my notebook a while ago, see the Clevo Overclocker Lounge):

This was taken after running either for just 20 seconds. My CPU is rPGA. Give it an extreme load, and it, too, starts throttling.

Furthermore, way too many people jump to the wrong conclusions. BGA in itself doesn't mean that CPUs and GPUs suddenly start failing left, right and centre (yes, I know they don't facilitate choosing the best bins, or repairs), but the problem is usually the implementation of BGA, or a mismatch in expectations. If an OEM chooses to use BGA with lousy power delivery and bad heatsinks or whatsoever, that isn't Intel's fault. As for self-repairs or binning... Tell me, who will actually open up their notebook to choose the best bins? That is a frustrating and, at best, tiresome exercise. Finally, $500 is a ridiculously low price point for BGA. As I said above, the P640HK is about $1000. How do you fit LGA in it? Your answer was avoiding your own statement about BGA having to be restricted to the very lowest denominations. What happens to the neither-here-nor-there notebooks like the Clevo P6 series, which have the largest marketshare of the Clevos, by a very big margin?

Finally...

I have an agenda? What, you think Intel pays me to shill for them? I don't even like Intel. As I've been saying forerver... I'm trying to be reasonable here, whereas everyone else resorts to childish bashing of companies (nGreedia? Micro$haft? Seriously?) and the users who buy them, calling them stupid, ignorant, whatnot. Put up a professional, mature, powerful argument.

 

First... SEE PROPER --- INFORMATION REALLY HELPS @Mr. Fox @Phoenix @TBoneSan @Ashtrix @hmscott @Vasudev @ThePerfectStorm @Georgel @Donald@HIDevolution @bloodhawk @Mobius 1 @iunlock @TomJGX @Robbo99999 @LunaP @don_svetlio @Cass-Olé +++ all other I not named here. PROPER... AKA CORECT INFO OUT TO THE PEOPLE IS IMPORTENT!!!

I and many of us like eg my good friend @Mr. Fox try as good we can to SAVE people from jump into all the Trash aka Turds out there. And we will continue to push out more proper INFO in the FUTURE!! And I hope @kamilr will help us saving people from buying Trash as well!!(BTW thanks for the nice words bruh )




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@Ionising_Radiation I expect that modern processors should manage fully turbo boost in loads like Ungine heaven as well as Cinebench and not throttle down clock speed!! Maybe it's ok for you. But Not for me. BTW see info above.


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Edit. Btw. Worlds Biggest BGABOOK - AcerBook 21X is out. Read comments in the read Box

 

Unigine Heaven is a GPU benchmark—it makes heavy use of tessellation, anti-aliasing, volumetric shadow lighting, etc. to stress the GPU. The graphics processor is taxed so much that even at 100% load, the CPU need not work at full speed to run the benchmark. It is hardly taxing on the CPU, which is obviously why the CPU only runs at its base clock speed. You want to turn any GPU benchmark into a CPU bench? Turn all the settings to lowest, and use the smallest resolution possible. The P640HK Heaven benchmark was done using the default presets, which tax the GPU. Did you even look at the thread loads and total CPU load? Let me help you:


Let me be clear: the CPU is not throttling, but it isn't being fully loaded. The GTX 1050 Ti bottlenecks the Core i7-7700HQ in the Unigine Heaven test. Core 0 thread 1 was being loaded to just 56%. We are looking at a bottleneck, not a throttle. Bottlenecks are bound to happen in any system, even your P870DM, where I expect the GTX 1080 bottlenecks the 7700K in GPU-bound scenarios, or inversely, when running thread-heavy applications, the 7700K bottlenecks the GTX 1080 (games such as GTA V).

See what I mean? What you have done is sheer uninformed cherry-picking. Just randomly quoting numbers, saying 'higher is better' or 'lower is better' with no context, no parameters, no sample size is poor statistical analysis. Your arguments may fool someone with lots of money and no real brains, but not me.

As for your longass story about 'helping' someone make the 'right' choice: I'm sorry, but just because a P775DM is heavier and fatter than a P670HS-G does not mean that the 775DM is superior performance-wise. The user in that thread had a one-off issue that might've been solved if he was willing to bring his notebook to one of the more reputable resellers like Xotic, or even within the UK, XMG or MySN. As far as I am concerned, NotebookCheck had no issues with their model of the P670HS-G. Instead you manipulated him into buying another machine that may not necessarily have suited his needs instead of presenting him his options with a fair comparison, and a choice to be made by him, not bashing companies and waving the flags of others. It reeks of the hive mind.

Sure, you may be able to upgrade the CPU... Oh, wait, Coffee Lake and Cannonlake will not be LGA 1151, because Intel wants all that sweet, sweet moolah from licensing their sockets to motherboard manufacturers, unlike AMD, which is aiming for longevity and a bigger market share, which means components that have to be supported for longer.

I agree that the Acer notebook is a stupid idea. I wouldn't even pay $9000 for a desktop, let alone a notebook with a non-upgradeable part. This is the only part of your post that is fair and makes sense. Make more arguments like this, call out the machines that have genuine flaws in their build, or are just plain stupid from the outset, like the Razer Blade Pro whose GTX 1080 is so power-starved that it's hardly faster than a GTX 1070.

 

Low CPU load means low clocks? Erm no, turbo boost works exactly the opposite. Lower load means lower power consumption and the power (and thermal) headroom means the CPU ramps up turbo to use it up.

Another hallmark of BGA that true enthusiasts despise, the hard limits. Not a characteristic purely of BGA... but like the rest of the elements behind the hatred it is much more prevalent and much worse where there is BGA. I think it's a facile academic argument to separate the examples (or 'implementation' as you called it) from the principle. The flip side is pointing to isolated examples such as the GX800 "look BGA can be just as overclockable as sockets and MXMs".

 

Well said...

Okay time for me to step in...enough is enough lol....This is a bga venting thread after all correct? Okay so for those who think that there is such a wide margin between bga mobile chips and desktop lga chips...let's talk....

I've posted before that there is a very fine line when it comes to this whole lga vs bga argument.

Let me just lay it out straight...

1. For anyone to compare a mobile chip vs a desktop chip is just plain FOOLISH.

2. For anyone who thinks that a mobile chip is equal to a desktop is just plain FOOLISH.

3. For anyone to be comparing a mobile chip to a desktop chip is just IGNORANT and UNREASONABLE.

4. For anyone taking the lowest scores of a given chip (mobile or desktop) and using that to attempt to make a statement is in DENIAL.

5. To be name calling with using silly words as grown adults is just SILLY.

* To be fair, there is a lot that a lot of people do not comprehend of why there is so much heat toward bga's and quite honestly I completely agree with the communistic approach of the industry, but if a change is what the opposition desires....let me break it to ya.... NBR ain't it LOL....You're wasting your time.

I would start a movement with a petition of some kind and be proactive that way, instead of on a forum where you may influence less than the numbers you can count on your fingers. Kabeesh? aka...Are you with me?

Since the introduction of Pascal and Kaby Lake, the playing fields have been leveled greatly. There is no more of this huge gap between mobile and desktop chips like it once was before.

6. For anyone to not factor in the weight classes between mobile and desktop chips and expect them to be the same is FOOLISH.

It is important to look at things in ratio. Otherwise, it'd be like a fool comparing a Ferrari to a Family Sedan.

Ex. Let's take MMA for example. Middleweight 185 lb (83.9 kg) vs Heavyweight 265 lb (120.2 kg)

If one really thinks that to be an even fight, then you are being FOOLISH.

Now to be clear, this is not to say that the mobile chips are that under weight -or- under rated, but you get the point.

Okay so let's look at reality...

We have to also be practical when comparing things or one will look like a complete FOOL due to the nature of what is being compared.

Ex. It's like putting a Tiger and a household cat in a pen. They are both felines yes? But are they the same weight class? This is how obvious it is, yet some people have a hard time comprehending the fact that there are different weight classes. Just unbelievable.

Okay now, let's look at REAL WORLD PRACTICALITY.

Will a portable DTR game any better or bring about a significant gaming experience over the bga machine? - Uhmmm NO.

The truth is, a DTR is for the most part for practical usage, no better than a high end bga machine.

Oh wait...is a MXM or the Mobo of a DTR not bga? LOL...In one form of another it is, less the CPU that is socketed.

What about upgrades? Oh wait...yup everyone stand in line. Who want's to be stuck with an aged machine when it comes to the latest and greatest? Sure you could likely upgrade your CPU to the next gen or two, but what about your GPU? -- Go stand in line...EVERYONE.

IF, anything and everything bga falls in to the same category as being trash, turd book or whatever childish name that it's labeled as then....

The highest recorded Graphics Score on a DTR is 25243 in a 870DM3.

A bga machine turd book managed to get a Graphics Score of 25607 from the GT73VR. Hey it's bga according to some...so bga is bga....



What about the Physics score from a bga turd book? Hmmm...Okay so mobile chip....Kaby Lake 7820HK being able to pull 4.7GHz stable.... and that's a turd book? Pleaaassee...



Again, keep in mind that weight division. If one is smart enough they'd be able to figure out that a 7820HK mobile chip being able to pull these numbers is more impressive than a desktop 7700K pulling 5.0Ghz....it's all in ratio so keep that in mind.

Now let me make something very clear in that....

I am not condoning the whole bga movement in high end gaming laptops, but there is a place for soldered chips to keep the form factor practical for its intended purpose.

When it comes to high end gaming laptops, I am all for socketed boards and that's how it should be.

Once Clevo gets their act together in improving on the build quality (material choice), keyboard and track pad, I along with many will be all over that. No brand loyalty, rather practicality.

However, do keep in mind that the majority who talk crap about bga is very ignorant to the fact that the very devices that they use and rely on are all bga LOL. Phones, Tablets, and yes even their MXM graphics card.

Also, to be clear, I am not condoning bga in high end gaming laptops / DTR's. I personally think it is a joke for any company like *cough* Razer to be offering a petty 6700HQ worthless chip in a $4K laptop and calling it powerful and a desktop replacement. That is a complete joke.

This subject is a very fine line...but numbers don't lie and although I am able to show the numbers, I am fully aware that my results don't speak for the masses, but you get the point.

The gap is not as big as you think it is. Hello Pascal. Hello Kaby Lake. That's just reality.

If anyone want's to be heard, by you barking here is barking up the wrong tree. Go start a petition and I'm sure many of us will be more than glad to sign it.

Until then...lets act our age and comprehend reality.

 

Please read your own text BOLDED in RED!! And then compare the results from SAME i7-7700HQ + 1050TI in pict below. OH,well You're welcome bro You as well @iunlock

 

Welcome for what?

You're failure to comprehend that a 7700HQ is not equal to a 7700K?

Come on bro...really...

It's clear that the calibration is lopsided with those thinking that:

It's LGA or nothing at all. That's pretty childish and not practical.

What about your cell phone? tablet?

There is a purpose for different components in their own respected form factor, but when it comes to DTR's or powerful gaming laptops, it is not like it used to be...

And point proven...you bring about the worst case scenario chart to use that for your argument?

Hmm that sure does look different than my 7700HQ in my XPS...



No throttle buddy...



Don't take this personal....we're all adults here. Debates are healthy. Bring on the facts...and lets learn from each other.

..

 

What I wrote in my very simple and precise answers to @Ionising_Radiation's fierce assertion. This was not about you. I did not expect such comment like this. I did not compare 7700K vs. 7700HQ in my analysis But refuting garbage with pure facts!! Or do you mean my analysis abowe was wrong?

 

Then tell me, why does my CPU not run at 3.5 GHz when idle? Based on my understanding, the CPU approaches its highest clock speed as a single core is increasingly loaded. As more cores are equally loaded, their multipliers also increase to a given limit, based on how many cores are at load.

Please don't sprinkle your text with variable font sizes and glaring colours, it makes for very difficult reading. Use bold, underlines and italics; these three are plenty to demonstrate emphasis. Anyway, I know why your image makes the CPU load (which is of the GE72 7RE Apache, by the way): it uses the D3D11 API, while the benchmark of P640HK1 doesn't. Simple as that. Nevertheless, I am amazed at the fact that you managed to discard everything else in that review, and focus on the fact that the CPU and GPU were BGA, just to spite BGA.

Spamming w i l d c o l o u rs doesn't seem to me like 'simple and precise'. Your answers are narrow-minded, cherry-picking and inaccurate, sometimes even misleading.

Finally, stop using the Unigine bench results from NotebookCheck. It is clear that their reviews are wide, but rather shallow, given the fact that they gave no parameters, no settings used and just took one screenshot of the benchmark running in the background and commented on it. I say again, to discard the entire review just to find one lousy performance screenshot, to make implementations of BGA seem worse than they really are, is called nit-picking.

The notebooks we are talking about are all at most, 3 kg. You cannot expect desktop (or even DTR) levels of cooling and performance.

 

Better? I could posted with less number of colors of course. All good. Can edit (Fixed). But the facts are and will be pure facts. Won't edit that.

 

OK perhaps I overlooked something, but I was just shedding some light to the topic with facts, because what I am experiencing with a bga machine is nowhere near a turd book from the results that I'm seeing.

As we know and this is my opinion so that no one gets bumbum hurt, the RBP with a 6700HQ would be considered a turd book. Especially at $4K for >GTX 1060 performance.

I think it should be specified when you talk about bga; exactly what you mean as in the industry move in going that route as a whole. That's just my opinion, because trust me, if any of the bga machines that I own was a turd in respect to what is expected from it, I would be the first to call it out. You know that... No brand loyalty here. I will call it like it is.

This is why as a tech fanatic, I have a diverse collection of cars in the garage so that I can speak from experience and not speculate.

I'm not disagreeing with the throttling that goes on with even the HQ CPU's. Trust me, I know it exists...as I've spent the last few weeks trouble shooting and trying to come up with a solution to keep the 7700HQ from throttling. Check the post if interested. As you'll see it was the not so brilliant design flaw that left the FET's completely bare that caused the throttling. Once those were under control temp wise, there was no more throttling.

Debate is healthy and no hard feelings.

 

Beautifully done, with excellent, clear pictures. Here's once again proof that it's not BGA that gives these performance and throttling issues, but the lousy, shoddy implementation. I wish I could give you +rep, but my account is broken.

 

I agree that mobile BGA and desktop LGA are not equal and should not be compared for the purpose of attempting to show them as equal. For one thing, that is an exercise in futility. The most obvious reason is that BGA trash is unworthy of being compared to it, and BGA has absolutely no place in an expensive, larger "high performance" notebook. It is legitimate to compare them to highlight BGA's inferiority for those thinking about stooping to that level. That is actually an excellent reason to compare them... educating the ignorant.

BGA fails 100% of the time when it is expected to perform like the equivalent desktop LGA CPU. That's one of the reasons it sucks. The other reason is that it is soldered to the mobo, which would make it unacceptable even if someday they manage to offer one that actually performs on par with the LGA equivalent.

Pretty simple, really. People need to know stuff like this before they spend a lot of money on something they might expect to be much better than it is capable of performing. It gives them an opportunity to make their mistakes with both eyes wide open, or avoid making mistakes by avoiding BGA filth in a so-called "high performance" package.

 

Fair. With the exception of the phrase 'BGA trash' (as has been mentioned, your GPU package is BGA; it's just that the entire PCB is a separate module from the motherboard). I would like to clarify, though: it's not BGA CPUs, but notebook CPUs in general cannot be compared to their desktop counterparts (be it BGA or pre-Broadwell rPGA). However, as I've mentioned before: $500 can get you nearly nothing. Such notebooks ought not to exist; there are high-end smartphones that are more expensive.

Your last paragraph really does sum up the key argument here: notebooks like the Razer Blade Pro, that ridiculous Acer and the GT83VR ought not to have had BGA. Simple as that.

There are notebooks (like the N850HK and P640HK) that cost around $1000-$1200 and deliver reasonable performance for price, and LGA certainly cannot be fitted into such notebooks. What then? Intel isn't going back to rPGA, AMD looks like it'll use BGA as well, so what?

 

Desktop GPUs are also BGA if you use that as a distraction to justify BGA and confuse the issue. The modularity (or lack thereof) of the component that will need to one day be replaced for either repair or potentially an upgrade is the issue. The core being soldered to a removable PCB does not leave you with a disposable dead-end piece of junk as it would if the GPU was integrated on the motherboard.

The answer is very easy. If you don't want an expensive soldered piece of garbage then you do not buy one. If a socketed version is not available then you buy an inexpensive soldered piece of garbage for mobility purposes and build a desktop for serious computing. Remember, we are talking about the application of BGA in so-called "high performance" notebooks, not those which are focused on having a small/thin/light form factor with gaming capabilities that are better that Intel IGFX. There is a huge difference. Those are not high performance machines. They are merely ultraportables that are less anemic than the cheaper models that do not have discrete graphics.

 

From the post I commented on #1030 @Ionising_Radiation accuses me straight out, that I manipulate people to buy something else Such is pretty hefty. It is far from the reality. I post always good advice if I can. It holds true for hardware or software!!

 

According to my bench results in comparison the p775 vs p670 it is. Simple cinebench score of 1000 vs 732 not meaning much in the real life but I will take the higher

I have been looking around yes and the only people worthwhile are the ones who go all the way and delid + improve cooling. Sure you can have BGA crap and live with higher temps at lower performance point. Perhaps my experience was needed for me to actually learn a bit more about the whole thing..

I don`t feel that he has. He gave me his opinion which I looked in to with a bit more depth and decided to break the bank to get the current machine. I like the fact that it has socket and it is portable at the same time. And to be clear I don`t need it for what I use. In fact I did not need the p670 either. I just like to buy new things and have the best toys.
And then if my girlfriend decides that she wants to edit photos whilst we are somewhere out then at least she will be able to with ease.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Just the fact that if my cpu dies I will be able to put in another one for couple of hundred pounds. Oh and I can easily do it at home so yeah pretty cool feature.

And to be clear I was not bashing the unit but rather the re-seller if you read my post you would have seen that. They were utter s$%te and for this reason I will be waving the flag of really good re-seller which Obsidian-PC is in my opinion.

 

Indeed. It is true that a lot of the typical gamer boys that goes out to buy the latest "i7 Graphics Card," laptop will end up spending way more than they should. (See below for this i7 gpu joke.)

But given that they go out to buy such a thing without educating themselves, perhaps the ignorance alone should take its course in serving justice for the laziness. Ah then, that would mean that the ODM's would benefit from preying on the ignorant. Catch 22...that's what sucks...

Even if the majority opted for DTR's, most of them wouldn't even know how to drive it. It'd be like putting a drone pilot in the seat of a F-15 and say....fly it. Nope, ain't 'gonna' happen.

The only thing keeping fully bga machines afloat are the unlocked mobile cpu's. If it wasn't' for that, there's a large segment within the current consumer base that would look elsewhere.

However, the sad reality is that for the majority of the consumers, even though everyone wants the latest and greatest, most of those who buy gaming laptops can get by with something much more less than what they are opting for.

Take me for example. I can play Overwatch and get my game fix in on a DTR or AW just the same as I could on my XPS lol.

Therefore, that's another reality that is often over looked in that we often opt for way more car than we actually need.

The way that I see it, there has to be good viable solutions, but with the lack of choices within the DTR segment, the sacrifice that has to be made still outweighs the benefits to a typical consumers real world usage.

Either way you cut it, there is a major lack of quality and flaws on the Clevo's. It's no secret. They really need to get on their game, because when people pay thousands for something, they also expect some kind of quality. The material choice can not be the same as a $100 walmart chrome book, especially when the keyboard and track pad of the said $100 chrome book is better than a $2500+ DTR.

Every company has their flaws, but lets face it... when paying big money, there is a certain level of expectation of return for a given purchase.

Given that... most would be able to accomplish all their computing tasks and get their game fix in on something like an sub $1000..... $850 Lenovo Legion Y520 with a GTX 1050ti LOL ...

IMO I see Msi as being the closest hope that we have to releasing something to fit the bill in most of the check boxes.

As always...to each his own...

(Ok so that i7 graphics card joke. I go to ship something, the guy sees that it's a laptop and says, "oh I just bought one of those." I said, "Oh nice, which one?" -- Clerk: "Umm...I don't remember I think it is the one with the i7 graphics card." ** FACE PALM.***)

.

 

There are several distinct categories of notebook, and generalising everything that isn't a DTR as 'an inexpensive soldered piece of garbage' is, honestly speaking, being narrow-minded.

We have the lowest performance category, stuff that sells for $100-$500, with the specs locked at a Core i3, maximum, or maybe an Atom, with little RAM, low-res screen, a small capacity SSD or a HDD. The price difference typically comes down to the storage capacity.

The $500 to $800 notebooks have generally a low-end dGPU, like the 920-940MX, Core i5 at best, maybe a larger SSD, slightly more RAM. Good for cheap DotA or LoL.

Then there's the $800 to $1200 notebooks, which, today, give incredible bang for buck. See, for example, the notebook that was cause for much discussion earlier, the Clevo P640HK1, or the Dell Inspiron notebooks which offer Core i7-7700HQ + GTX 1050 Ti. 8300 on Fire Strike 1.1 Graphics and 700+ on CB R15 is nothing to sneeze at. I am frankly surprised, because I was under the impression that the 1050 Ti was a bad deal, but as @iunlock says above... An $850 notebook that can play The Witcher 3 on high settings at 1080p 45-60 FPS... It's a good deal. This time last year, that performance could only be found in the high end.

Now, $1200-$1600 can offer serious improvements in performance. Most performance notebooks in this tier offer GTX 1060 + i7-6700/7700HQ. Solid gaming, and benching, notwithstanding the roughly +-10% difference in performance that can be observed. $1600-$2000 can net a GTX 1070 and an i7, or even the entry-level DTR, the P751DM2-G, or the P65/70HS-G. Anything above $2000 is squarely in DTR territory, and $3000 nets either the highest of the highest-end DTRs, or a MacBook Pro if you have less brains than money. There's a very clear $300-$400 jump every time you want a certain leap in performance.

I have read your post, and from the outset it was clear that it wasn't your notebook that was the problem, but the reseller. But my point was that @Papusan conveniently made use of the fact that you changed over to a LGA machine, to push forward his agenda that LGA > BGA.

 

That is great. What matters is that you're happy with your purchase.

I would like to add though just for clarity that I edit, render and encode videos a lot and all of this I am able to accomplish on a bga AW17R4, just the same as I would on a DTR.

Having a LGA machine does not mean that you are able to do things better or significantly faster. That is not true. I have been encoding video files at 4.7GHz without any hiccups on the mobile 7820HK.

Also, to be fair and to keep things grounded to reality, how often does CPU's really go out on you? I mean really... Does it happen? Of course, but it is nowhere near the top of the list of things that fail on a system, like an every day occurrence.

ie... It is not accurate or practical to use the fear of a CPU going out as an excuse to justify buying a DTR.

Where the DTR shines is in the CPU department where you can OC the CPU til' the cows come home, but then again, we're talking literally a few seconds at best when it comes to real world tasks.

In fact, with the majority of the real world tasks, there are ZERO differences in an users experience to get things done. Now for things like what I do on a daily basis like encoding, rendering etc... we're taking seconds.

Then you have to factor in the real world reality of being able to keep an OC'ed 7700K cool.

Does the heat really justify what the OC is being used for?

My point is, you really have to consider and factor in the reality of things and not let any other variables alter your buying decision.

The 775 is a fantastic machine for what it is, power wise, and if you're able to take advantage of what it can provide, then all power to you.

Enjoy your new machine and crank up that OC! 5.0GHz...go for it.

 

@iunlock, well-said. In fact if I wanted serious improvements in my rendering performance, I would just offload everything to a renderfarm and get everything done in bulk. Nothing beats hundreds and hundreds of GPUs and CPUs stacked together in a freezing-cold, underground room...

 

It's quite powerful accusations from you. Maybe you should Google all my posts. This is simply nasty from you end to end. I expected maybe more humbleness from you, than repeating accusations (or let's say twisting a bit so it sounds better in next reply). You should have seen all the nice feedback I get back in posts and in PM

Spoiler: Read the ****y for Yourself.

 

Thats a nice overclock you have there Can you tell me what are your temps when you do stress gpu and cpu at the same time? What gpu have you got in there??

Agreed on pretty much of everything you say except the 5ghz haha with gtx1080 in tandem I do not think that`s a good idea. I am happy with what I have and like the fact that I can use auto fan and don`t have to go full throttle lol

The reason I went in this direction is so I can keep everything as cool as possible at as high clock as I am comfortable with. Delid and LM helps in achieving that.

edit: again I did not look at the sig.. 1080 it is then.