BGA Venting Thread ;)

Fair enough. I guess this is like the old apple vs android debate no one is going to win it but everyone has their opinion. End of the day I am happy with what I have as in my opinion it is better than what I had

Socket for me here is important as I can now ponder buying 7700k and deliding + LM myself in the future. Something I have never done and if I fcuk it up I still have the current 6700k so I can play and play

But hey yes its an overkill for browsing and few games here and there. Not so much time nowadays to play haha

 

Why did I use the word 'manipulate'? Let me define 'manipulate':

1. control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly or unscrupulously.

2. alter or present (data) so as to mislead.

I say this directly: you have done both. You have outright mentioned that BGA is 'crap', 'turd', 'filth' (all from your profile picture, to the caption underneath it, to your signature) which automatically makes people associate BGA with low-quality products. As has been said earlier, BGA doesn't necessarily mean low quality or low performance. If you had presented your arguments in an objective way. By objective, I mean compare everything, lay out all the caveats of both BGA and LGA and ask others to choose, like what @iunlock has done very succintly, here and here, with accurate, complete data presented and not nit-picked to show one is better than the other. Then I would not call you 'manipulative'. But willingly or not, you have influenced someone's purchase decision, and like it or not, that is manipulative.

If you have taken personal offence at my comments, then I truly apologise. But I try to stay true to the facts and not demean products and their users for the sake of doing so.

 

The reality is, not so long ago there was a huge gap when it came to mobile CPU's and GPU's.

With the introduction of Pascal and Kaby Lake (well we can say that Skylake helped start the spark), that gap has narrowed by a lot and very fast. (Over night fast.)

So now all the ammo in the arsenal used to glorify the 6700K and GTX 980 at the time, has all of a sudden diminished with what the new Pascal and 7820HK brought to the table. (well okay again, 6820HK did start the spark )

With there being no more desktop gpu's vs mobile gpu's physically, now it all came down to the crippling of the TDP that was in the hands of the ODM's to determine at their mercy.

Recently, we've been seeing the likes of Asus and AW being able to push past 200W on the GTX 1080. On the Asus I think I've hit a max of around 230W if I remember correctly, and on the current AW I'm easily pushing past 200W on the GPU.

Before, this was not possible and by nature it gave the DTR's a huge advantage, at the time.

Well now, there is no more of that huge advantage and the reality check of this fact is what really gets to some people, because it is not like how it was before....

It is logical to look at things in a ratio perspective. (Ex. Like with cars...power to weight ratio means something and that same concept needs to be taken into consideration here as well....)

With both units already being in different weight classes, of course the underdog is the bga here, however, when things are looked at practically in ratio, the numbers, percentages and results speak for themselves.

That huge gap is gone...it's a new era...

So the reason why a lot of people are ticked, is because while the ones that do not hold a personal grudge on bga have options in the market to choose from, even a DTR, all the while the ones that do hold a grudge for whatever reason (to each his own and I am not judging here) do not have options, and will have to scrap portal laptops all together and move strictly to a desktop.

Often times the wall of hatred is built so high and so thick that it can limit the doors for practicality, but again to each his own and I am not judging.

To prove this, I will even admit that I have a grudge against the direction that Smartphone ODM's and Android is going with locking down their phones so I refuse to use any phone that is not rootable or bootloader locked. But hey, that is a choice that I am making, but the fortunate thing here is that there is a lot more wiggle room of hope than compared to the laptop world...

Anyway, when it comes to DTR's, those who are not open to anything else are limited with that segment, which is holding on by a thin string.

I wouldn't want to end up holding onto an aged machine where I would be in a position to have to upgrade, just as I would with any other bga laptop.

"Everyone stand in line please...yup, everyone."

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HWInfo readings don't give a full picture of what's going on with frequency changes hundreds of times a second, or how single threads jump around the cores with the Intel shared L3 cache setup since Nehalem. At idle, most of the time things are speed stepping down to 800mhz (or whatever), but for the 1 or 2% of the time the cores are indeed turboing up to max.

If a CPU is not maintaining it's multicore turbo speed it's either hitting short or long term turbo power limits or thermal throttling (which are easy to find out)... or preplanned throttling measures such as cTDP down. Or what my EM Clevos do on battery, which is lock themselves in permanent power saving 1.2ghz CPU/300mhz GPU, which is annoying for the approximately never I ever used either on battery.

I see this issue coming back to the whole old school of buying your hardware with interchangeable parts and a right to self repair vs the modern crapple way of buying a right to use your provided package under the artificially restrictive terms of the manufacturer and company dictated repairs which basically means it's a throwaway as soon as one thing breaks (what does a GX800 motherboard cost again?)

If you want say the focus on BGA alone is largely mistargeted, I won't disagree, but I would say it's a big symptom that's part of this wider cancer. Nvidia's cockblock attempt was another. More from Intel: locking CPUs in every way, and ordering board makers to patch microcode exploits that allow unintended overclocking to preserve their product pricing stack, locking out Xeons from consumer chipsets etc.

Corporation vs consumer. How does BGA benefit the consumer?

 

Throttle Stop is also great to monitor those changes of the multipliers as you can even adjust them to a finer degree to see a more accurate read out.

I agree with the whole corporate mumbo jumpo that goes on...sucks I know...

As for the bga stuff, one of the major influencing factors for why I even consider one is also the warranty.

At any given time with the several years (which I didn't pay a dime for) of warranty that I have on any of my AW's/Dell's, I can make a call on Monday and have a part dispatched to me within days or less and with it being over-nighted at zero cost to me. This can't be said for Asus, HP, MSI, Acer or even Clevo.

Even when I went the depot route of sending off a machine to them (test run), I called Friday, got a pre paid Next Day Air box mailed to me via FedEx by Monday, they received it Tuesday, and I had the laptop back on Friday of that same week.

I don't know of any other company that can match this, with the exception of Apple.

This is why I don't worry about anything breaking. If it does, oh well...it's covered.

Also, I don't keep my laptops for more than a year, so that's another big influence and luxury in my eyes of not having to be so stern in making a prominent decision when buying a laptop.

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Damn straight! Proud of you for doing so. Manipulation is one of the value-added services we are pleased to provide. Tough job, but someone has to do it, since OEMs manipulate them through carefully crafted lies and deception, with a budget and staff allocated for manipulation. We use truth and let discernment sort the data. Some will choose wisely and some will not.

Keep up the good work. Every soul is worth saving. Friends don't let friends buy BGA jokebooks. We are the Jedi. They are the Republic. Use the force, Luke.

 

I'm still glad that this thread has saved me from going with a BGA laptop

Correction, I meant these forums! I have been around for a long time now, but NBR is what saved me from getting a BGA

Before reading @Mr. Fox and @Papusan ' s comments and rants, I had no idea what the differences are between BGA and LGA CPUs. To be fair, most consumers imagine that a 7700HQ is EQUAL to 7700K or 7700 at least. I am all for increasing awareness that they are not. Everyone should buy whatever they like, but having all facts on the table is the key to making the right purchase.

Also,

The moment when Intel decides to change 1151 standard, every enthusiast goes:

 

That looks so incredibly uncomfortable!

 

Thanks.
I'm 110% honest when I helping people to take the correct and the only viable choices!!! I don't like, that people get screwed by ODM/OEM's. No worries... I will go on helping people as best I can!!

 

I like the fact that despite attempting to be reasonable, @Stooj, @iunlock and my own posts and their content were conveniently ignored in the face of the past four or five replies, which can be summed up as 'circle-jerking'.

'Oh, well done! You have successfully kept up the elite circle of rich people who can afford $3000 MXM and LGA notebooks! Screw everyone who can't, they're all using inexpensive pieces of garbage anyway!'

You sound like the fanboys who want to hold up the FPGA of G-Sync, and FreeSync is too 'cheap' to be good, instead of coming up with a universal solution for all, which is what we here are looking for.

At this rate NBR shouldn't be NBR, it should be DTRR.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

There are a few places that can do replacements, the issue is actually getting the chips since they are not in the normal channels.

 

Clevo uses an LGA cpu in a 2,5kg laptop like w650kk1. It has a soldered gtx1050ti and it is only 1100 euros

 

I am aware of the W650KK1. But I'll bet that someone here will find something to put down in it, like the GPU, or the thermal dissipation system for the CPU, or the fact that unlocked-performance CPUs aren't offered.

 

You're far too angry

Let's put things this way: How much do you want to invest?

If it is around 500$, you have Acer and Asus for gaming and Dell for office.

Around 1000$, Asus and Acer and there are a few models from MSI

Over 1000$, you're already spending quite a lot and it might be good to go with Clevo and something socketed.

Nobody said that having a cheaper laptop is bad, but having an expensive BGA one that will eventually fail is at least counter productive.

My brother uses a 400$ laptop to play competitive Dota2 and wins a ton of matches. He is happy. Not everyone needs power.

I edit photos that are over 10K pixels sometimes, work in large things that process slowly so I need that processing power. Just buy something that suits your needs and be happy.

 

Interesting isn't it?

Why hasn't anyone responded? Lol... Can't handle...

It looks like some people are cherry picking and ignoring the questions that is hard for them to answer...

Influencing a few among thousands is nothing to be proud of. That is not a victory, rather a lot of wasted energy = not efficient.

If real change is what is desired, then do what I had suggested in the earlier post.

For the record I have recommended a dtr to plenty of people who actually needed it.

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::iunlock::

 

Sounds good. 1337 d0 n07 answer 2 86a 7r45h 10v3r5

 

except if you live in china

can go to a mall with a 6700hq laptop then ask them to solder on 6820hk replacement

 

Anythings possible with some dosh lol...

But results may vary haha...

 

I do feel sorry for those who spend too much on a bga gaming laptop like the RBP lol.

As for a bga eventually breaking, the same can be said for a lga machine.

I also edit, daily and as I've mentioned in my earlier post, the 17R4 at 4.7GHz does a fine job at it, just the same as a dtr would...

At the end of the day it is correct in that making a smart buying decision is important. I'm all for practicality and again, since the introduction of Pascal and Kaby Lake, it is not like what it used to be.

A great example that a lot of people fail to see are:

What is better for a kid going off to college that doesn't game and just need it to write reports? A lga machine? NO. -- See what I mean?

So to say lga or the highway is pretty childish, because it boils down to practicality. If one fails to see that, then the whole debate is a lost cause.

The fortunate thing is that today, we have options that can fit the bill of both worlds. If one wants to game on the same laptop that they write their school work on, then there are plenty of options for that and a dtr is not a smart one for this scenario.

Also, like I've mentioned in my previous post, most people whether they want to admit it or not, can get by just fine on a sub $1000 laptop with a GTX 1050 LOL... It can get ones game fix in all the while being able to accomplish all their normal computing needs.

Heck, I'm not a heavy gamer, but play enough to where having a certain level of hardware matters to me. Granted some games are not super demanding, but still, if I had to choose one laptop out of all the ones that I own, I would opt for the XPS, just because it's compact, practical, great screen (one of the best 4K on the market, although I run it at ~1440p) and can handle the games that I play just fine.

I take it that you're an Adobe user? Out of curiosity, what do you have your CPU overclocked at?

Side Note: Debates can be very healthy so I hope that the discussions can go on here with productive and constructive criticism backed by tangible facts that are, practical.

There is a lot that we can learn from each other. With new times, comes a new era...

No pun intended and people...don't take things too personally. There is no need to get bumbum hurt. We're grown adults here...


.

 

at 4.7 the crooked heatsink on my 7700K won't sustain if the slave GPU kicks in lol

 

That can be fixed by downloading a software called, "Teleporting thermal cooling." It works so well you can even run it without the heat sink even attached as long as it is within 6 feet from the chassis.

 

I feel for you bro

Haha

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

My 6700K runs at 4.0 GHz...

I'm using all of the adobe suite actually. Cannot crank that CPU higher although I wish I could. It is faster than 4710HQ I used to own, and P775 answers well to my needs.

I couldn't get by with 6700HQ and 860m, 1050 ti would probably be still far too low. Even 1080 can be too low for some tasks I need to get done actually, but most of the things I done with them GPUs is games.

There is also madVR which I use for video watching. I love that thing

 

Hey Georgel,

Is 40x the most your 6700K will allow? You should be able to at least go to 45x without any issues... Is it fan noise you're trying to keep at bay?

Yea and those 6700HQ's...ouch.

 

I can boot with 44X or 45 X , but the temps get above 99C even with 41X and it throttles... With 40X, the temps are lower than 80C for most benchmarks, so something happens after 40X... No idea what. The paste job is very good, the cooling is at max and ambient temps are around ~20C. Voltage is -100mV, and I'm having a sweet treat of a bios thanks to @Prema who put in all his efforts.

No idea what is going on...

 

Hmm yea something isn't right then. Are you running Max fans?

Feel free to PM me...I can share with you some info that may help...that way this thread stays on topic.

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Did you take the c-clips off the screws?

Brother @Georgel needs to delid and use liquid metal. Otherwise, his temps will always be out of control and overclocking will be a problem. It's a shame and a crime that nobody builds a notebook with decent thermal management from the factory... BGA or LGA... they all suck at it. You would think the smart OEMs would at least try to make the OOBE decent, but that does not seem to be a priority for any of them. If you want anything done right you have to buy from one of the extremely rare conscientious resellers like Obsidian or HIDevolution, or do it yourself.

 

Hope you're using that with SVP. I can't watch videos without SVP+madVR+shaders (DeNoise + Sharpen Complex 2 from MPC-HC even makes old DVD rips look great)

That seems very wrong. I'd be keeping a very close eye on voltage and package power when swapping from 40x -> 41x as it may reveal the problem.

Or you've just won the wooden spoon in the silicon lottery....

 

Yes, and x-pattern using kryonaut.

 

i think that OC in a thin laptop is not a good idea
There are few infos and review about this w650kk1. i think that this clevo w650kk1 with a cpu i7-7700 and gtx1050ti is better than clevo n850hk1, asus gl553ve or hp omen 15

there is also w650kj1 with gtx1050 and it is around 1000 euros



may be that a single heat pipe for the gpu is not perfect but temps are not so bad
http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/clevo-w650kk1-cooling-system-reviews.802390/page-2

 

Hey. I presume you tried higher undervolt? Mine can run 4.2 all cores @-150.. also you're doing cache as well right? When you say 99 its cpu only load? I can pass on my ts settings if you wish.

Apologies for off topic..

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

True and if that was the case everywhere it would be much less of an issue.

 

Sure!

I am making some research over this!

The temps don't look so bad in R15 for example, but they're broken in AIDA stress test and in Dota2 (WHYYYYY?)

Also max fans, with ~5 minute before running a test to ensure a stable temperature.

Seems that in AIDA64 stress test FPU stress is increasing the temps the most - I don't exactly understand why...

I really wish Clevo and their partners would had done a better job at temp management!

As for liquid metal, I'm literally scared of using it and for delid... I keep saying I'll do it, but I need some money to ensure that if I break the CPU I'll be able to replace it. This is my work machine as well after all...

I'll be studying what is going on, but I noticed a drastic power increase from 40 to 41. Voltage as well, even though I have -100mV on adaptive.

@Mr. Fox usually recommends 1.2V static, but since this is my work machine, I'm a tiny bit afraid of doing that

Thank you!

I'm running -100mV on core, no undervolt on cache, cache is default, core is 4.0 GHz, ~80 - 85C on CPU.

Happily, GPU load doesn't get past 75C - 80C regardless of CPU load.

I know that @Mr. Fox will always recommend liquid metal and delid but I'm not exactly the smartest when it comes to these things. I'm a bit afraid to do it myself....

 

Oh yes, about SVP

I actually cannot use it for anime, it will create some artifacts that I dislike, although I wanted to try dimitri render but it turned into a green screen with no image regardless of settings made

For movies, SVP is a great experience enhancer!

 

Try matching the cache with cores with regards to multi and undervolt. I bet you will get it under control. Should be able to push 4,2 with this UV and hopefully you will do it without delid.

 

I'm torn between thinking this is a great idea and not trusting a US shopping mall store to touch a CPU.

 

Based on the competency (or lack thereof) for a typical shopping mall employee, that concern is probably justifiable. Replacing a BGA CPU is in a different league than body piercing, costume jewelry, perfume sales, Cinnabon and Orange Julius.

 

Hey, Cinnabon is serious business.

 

That depends on the clock speed and temperature, but static voltage is best. For stock 7700K, 1.200V is way too much for stock. For 7700K I use about 1.150V for 47x4, 1.175V for 48x4, 1.200V for 49x4 and 1.265V for 50x4.

 

A decent place in each state it could be shipped too for a reasonable price would be good enough I think.

 

Indeed. The difficulty is identifying such a place. Before I forced myself into learning some of this soldering stuff and buying the tools I needed to do it, I could never find a place locally. None of the local electronics repair "experts" were willing to do something even as ridiculously simple as swap a BIOS chip on a laptop motherboard. @Johnksss@iBUYPOWER knows of a place in SoCal that can do the extraordinarily delicate soldering, but as a general rule finding the right talent that is able and willing to help is not easy. The only person I know of that can tackle the more advanced stuff is @Khenglish and he is great at it.

 

And at a good price. The relative lack of techs who will assume the risk of component repairs on the board makes the price higher.

 

I HELP ALWAYS AS GOOD I CAN @Mr. Fox

 

I wonder if this is most enthusiasts's reaction every time Intel changes the standard

 

That I do know. It's a computer shop I work for. This guy is pretty damn good when it comes to soldering anything on a motherboard. EC's included. We also have the BGA soldering stations.

Would really only need to know exactly what it is one is trying to accomplish. Then go from there.

 

Most repair techs' reaction too.

 

That is not an enthusiast product, nor is it intended to be, so how it is made does not really matter. There is no point in looking at it or discussing it in a thread like this one. It might even be a case where, because it is already so anemic, a low TDP BGA CPU might make more sense. And, that raises the question of whether or not $1100 is actually a good value or too much money for too little performance. Something you can afford to just toss into a dumpster when it stops working might make more sense.

 

You've neither seen, nor used it in person, so what makes you think that 'it is already so anaemic'?

If you really want to take things out of context, then I say again, that your P870 is peanuts compared to multi-billion-dollar server rooms with thousands of Xeons and Quadros working in tandem. And if people want real performance, that is what they'll use. Your machine is bragging rights, not production-ready.

 

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