Make the 7970M Enduro Public! Get backing of prominent Blogger

Rage Fury Maxx man. Those were the good ol' days.

 

Were you not around, just a year ago, when Nvidia's early Optimus implementation was regarded as a similar nightmare? Or when the 8000M failure rate was a legit scandal that led to lawsuits? 2012's Optimus 2.0 is indeed (and thankfully) working as intended, but let's not lose sight of who we're discussing here. Nvidia is far from being the people's champion. The company has been closer to the Darth Vader of the mobile sector.

This is literally the first time the ridiculous price of their flagship GPU is even close to justifiable. And let's be real, it's very much more a case of "dumb luck" than "you get what you pay for", right? Nvidia priced the 680M expecting the 7970M and Enduro to function properly.

 

Unfortunately for some resellers like xotic I am outside my 30 day return policy and can't downgrade or upgrade my laptop anymore. That's what I get for waiting for AMD and Sager to make a new driver and get it resolved. I bought this, along with having two friends buy p170ems with me both with the amd 7970m. We all have the issue, we are all outside our 30 day warranty. Now I look like a complete crap to my friends cause I had them buy from xotic and suggested the amd 7970m.

Personally I just wish that the problem would be resolved and keep this card as it was what I wanted and purchased.

 

You still can make a complaint / call to xoticpc and explain your problem and ask what options they have. If they offer nothing then that would be an appropriate time to contact the BBB. Basically when a product simply fails to work as intended which this does IMO, then most companies must rectify the issue, IE take returns past the return time, or offer a reasonable replacement path. To me reasonable moves on the PC makers side would be to do something like offer you a upgrade to the 680M for the difference in price, you pay shipping to them they pay shipping back, or offer you to down grade to the 660M for free, perhaps in this case they pay shipping both ways.

To me I would say AMD will probably fix the problem, but then I think about it and I realize this problem has basically been in their cards since the last series and AFAIK its still a problem so I really dont think AMD is willing to fix it or can. Now they are spending their time and money trying to cover it up. The other thing is if I were any of the sager / clevo makers I would have a warning on any AMD card purchases, but I dont see that.

 

SUCCESS!!!

One of the most respected AMD supporter for that last 2 decades has taken notice and will read over our threads and see if he can do something about it. The creator of AMD Catalyst has mentioned him by name many times and responds to him on twitter personally and he has hosted AMD Profile when they were first announced. Caveman-Jim, just awesome. Very happy. We gotta keep getting this out in the open, force AMD to do something.

 

Good work. How did you get in-touch with him?

I keep on day-dreaming that very very soon, when we least expect it, AMD releases updated drivers, fixes Enduro (even if it's a shoddy fix) and we go back to laughing at the poor souls who got an Nvidia for double the price and a ~5% performance difference across the board.

 

Great news! I really hope that he gives some feedback :S I´m losing faith in my 7970M very fast and already scheduled a visit to my store next week to "beg" for the 680M...

Keep us posted,
Best Regards to all

 

Yeah, but Nvidia didn't hide from the issue, which is what i said... when they have a problem they actually face it and work on it. Nvidia has a much better track record with mobile cards than AMD, and as people have said time and again, all you have to do is a simple Google search to see which has the better reputation for support and customer relations.

 

Good to hear that, finally something positive out of all this.

 

We all know that really, I don't think anybody believes AMD is better at supporting their cards.

 

They offered me to buy the 680M at an additional 100 dollars on top of the 250 difference plus I have to pay shipping both ways. At that point it's very frustrating and too costly considering I waited because of reports that it would be fixed quickly and updated monthly with new drivers (which isn't happening). I should have just returned it immediately and went elsewhere. Last time I ever do business with Xotic.

 

I am sorry this is bit of a harsh statement. We went to bat with Sager for YOU to try and help out and you want fault us? You have a 2 month old system and we fought with Sager hard to allow a upgrade of your card and this is what we get in return? It is unfortunate with the driver issue and we are pushing Sager to push AMD on a resolution.

 

Need a bit of help. It seems some at Rage3D believe I'm trolling AMD just for the sake of trolling and actually calling me a jerk for looking for a solution. Would be nice if I could get some support from you all on NBR to demonstrate that I am not alone looking for a solution....

View attachment 81637

 

As people above have posted there have been numerous issues that have not been fixed for a very long time concerning AMD. Some are even stating they don't believe a driver fix will even fix the situation. The last "beta" drivers given did nothing to help in any way when it came to under utilization.

I will say Justin has done a tremendous amount of work trying to rectify the situation but the options given by Sager just aren't acceptable. They originally say to "wait we are getting drivers fixed". So I wait, which of course causes me to be out of warranty. So now I'm mainly concerned that they will continue to tell us to "wait" and then 10 months down the road when my warranty is completely up I'm just sol. At this point I can only hope for a type of mass recall if they don't work so then it would be necessary for them to exchange it somehow. I've read on these forums alone that a driver update may never completely fix the issue, which if it is the case I was sold something that doesn't work to how it was advertised. Instead of saying I will never buy from Xotic again, I should have stated I will never buy xotic again because of the sub-par options they could achieve from Sager therefor me not buying Sager again. Very frustrated at this point obviously.

 

How about an HTML link?

 

It's in the opening post as well. I've linked all the threads I've created so far looking to see if the AMD community at large have any ideas.

7970M Enduro Issue - Rage3D Discussion Area

 

I simply stated A/W has a hardware solution. I didn't say it fixed it. You state it bypasses it with a hardware solution. So you agree, there is a hardware solution. Take time to read the AMD disclaimer. It puts much responsibility on laptop manufacturers, disowns much responsibility from AMD. And if bypassing the Enduro makes it perform much differently than another manufacturer that doesn't, it opens a defense against claims. I certainly don't think it is working right. But in court things are much different. A great legal firm could certainly use the AMD disclaimer and the fact that A/W has hardware solution to their advantage.

As to your argument that AMD can't argue that they are not at fault because A/W bypasses Enduro, why not? That along with their passing of the buck with their disclaimer completely opens up that defense. People, in the real world of large corporations, there is a reason for all the legal terms you bypass when you just hit the "I agree" button. All of this has been thought out well in advance of the release of the product. Well in advance. Go back and read how protective of AMD the disclaimer is. It allows enough room for interpretation to give AMD a good shot to win in a court of law. They have spent more on lawyers than every poster on this thread has spent on computers, combined. This is not TV. There is a very good reason why Sager talked with NBR and finally decided to pull the other thread. It is not because Sager is wrong, so don't try to put words in my mouth. It is because the disclaimer is ambiguous enough in the wording to NOT be open and shut against AMD. And if it went to court, a company like Sager could go bankrupt before it even made it to court. The cost to fight to prove your right ( or not at fault) can be extremely high.

And lest anyone not be sure, I am not a fanboy of either company, and I do think AMD put out an inferior product. None of that matters in court. Usually it comes down to who can afford the best legal team, who has the best defense... And who protected themselves the best with legal jargon upfront. Don't confuse common sense with legal precedence. They often do not match up.

 

Let's be clear about this. AMD is at fault, it is not a hardware problem from Clevo. Optimus works fine with muxless design. If you google, you can find AMD presentations in which they claim their switchable tech works with muxless and in fact they promote it. They are in favor of it. This is AMD's fault, not OEM.

 

Ya you can write disclaimers to say anything you want, who are we kidding every company carefully writes them to say the same thing, not me not me, hahahaha. But court cases still get pass them.

Anyhow as an average consumer here, most of us cannot do much but you can report to the BBB if you do not feel that a company has sufficiently taken care of you. You can report the seller, sager, clevo, AMD or all of them. The BBB rating is watched by many and can be something you use to negotiate better terms. I am not going to point fingers but we all know alot of companies sort of have multiple tiers of solving customer relation issues and sometimes its the BBB threat that moves you up a level. You gotta look out for yourself and your own interest thats the best you can do for everyone in the end.

 

I feel for you man but I have to agree more with Xotic on this. You knew of the issues but chose to wait it out rather than return and/or re-order in a timely fashion or take the exchange offer from Xotic (yes it was pricy). There has been nothing but pure speculation for months on these forums about a fix, no facts. You should've listened to your gut and gotten rid of the 7970 immediately.

 

I disagree. For AMD, publicity and reputation is everything for them. If news gets out that AMD can't even provide working GPU for product that customers have paid upwards of $600, this is just more fuel for the Nvidia vs AMD war. Nvidia fanboys will be all over this. I'm hoping for this, I'm hoping this will spread like wildfire and really get AMD working fast and respond to try and nip it in the butt before it gets out of hand for them. That's what I'm trying to do. I know I am, I'm sure we are all tired of 3+ months of waiting for AMD to acknowledge this issue and provide some support. I've NEVER had an issue I had with an AMD GPU resolved, with my G73JH and now with Clevo. I'm not going to spend the next 3 years with a borked GPU again. I suffered through that with the Asus HD5870M, not again. We paid too much for this.

This is the rare times, I'm hoping the Nvidia vs AMD raging in the gaming community will work in our favor. Fact: Mobile PC sales destroy desktop sales, and the bread and butter for Nvidia, Intel and AMD is now mobile solutions. AMD is already behind, lagging behind Intel with their integrated HD4000 since Intel Ivey Bridge destroy whatever AMD has to offer for mobile gamers and behind Nvidia due to Nvidia's reputation, and working Optimus.

For AMD's sake, I hope they listen. If not, I'll do my best to warn future potential customers of my experience, of our experience and to think really hard before buying an mobile AMD GPU.

 

I get that comprehension is not a strong point of some. I get it. I also realize not everyone understands how the legal system works. In fact, let's just take a vote on which company is wrong, and they can reimburse every person that got screwed by AMD. (cue sarcasm card).

Short story, I agree AMD put out an inferior product. In fact the very product Hula touted for several months as working for him. None of that matters legally when you take the time to read the disclaimers. Doesn't mean AMD is right. Doesn't even mean they would win. But it does mean when their legal team talked to Sagers legal team, there was enough of a threat that after talking to NBR, both sides felt the threat was real.

Don't ever confuse one side being wrong with they will lose. That is not how it works. Keep fighting, figure out what to do. But don't confuse " them being at fault" with they will lose. They have a lot of cash to put into making sure they win.

 

I'm not looking for a legal action though. I don't think that's what Alienware, HP, Dell, Clevo and possibly MSI owners are looking for. I don't see a demand for a class action suit, our desire is so much more simple. We just want AMD to publicly admit there is a problem and to publicly say what they are going to do about it, and provide a working solution FAST, SOON, NOW! Not later, not another month, not another 3 months, NOW, this solution should have been available 3 months ago.

 

I agree, the solution should have been in place long ago. My fear for everyone that has the card is they, AMD, feel so confident in their position, they are not going to have a solution. If, as stated earlier, the solution is a hardware one, they do not want to pay. If it were a software one i would think they could have come up with one. I think with the thread deletions, they feel they are holding the strong hand, and are simply refusing to acknowledge there is an issue. And then they release a new card in the future. Profit!

 

Look, they are out to make money. Just like any company. Some companies have integrity, some do not. Right now, from the outside, it looks just like the lenders, get it while you can, and do not worry about the guy/gal working their butt off to buy your product, just get the cash. It is not right. But it could be real. Again, I don't want to see the consumer pay for this. I don't want to see the builder or reseller pay for this. But I fear the manufacturer ( AMD) will NOT have to pay for this. And that is not right to me. But sometimes that is how it works. It still is not right.

 

I'm with Hula here, and my comprehension skills are usually described as apt

Even if I concede that legal action on part of X party against AMD would never stick (A big IF) that doesn't mean that we won't try to punish AMD -fairly- by spreading the word and turning this from a small forum annoyance to a massive scandal that will affect their sales. The alternative is to sit down and shut up and listen to some forum goer categorizing people's comprehension skills online. I'll pass.

 

totally agree with you. We can only wait some more time, say a few weeks, and then decide.

 

This was the same stance that Nvidia took with the 8600-8800m line of cards, it ended up being disastrous for them as they lost class action lawsuits in several countries. The days where companies can "win" against the public is over, even if AMD does come out on top in the court room I can guarantee their sales will not.

I'm already contemplating contacting the BBB, I'd rather not bother LPC-Digital about the problem as it was never theirs to begin with. Sager and AMD are at falt here and should both be treated as such. Just because Sager gives a singled half-assed attempt at fixing the solution doesn't mean that they are in the free and clear.

 

It's good to get the word out. Thanks to those who are posting about their AMD issues.

 

Here is the article from Hard|OCP I think forced AMD's GOS issue into the open. This blog was then linked in Guru3D, AnandTech etc, AMD could not ignore it any longer. That's what I want to happen as well.
HARDOCP - Dongle and GSOD Issues - AMD ATI Radeon Dongle and GSOD Issues Addressed

 

How do we go about getting this into the open with them? Send them an email?

 

When did Nvidia ever publicly address and own up to the two issues I mentioned?

 

Where does AMD list the "Open Issues" and "Not AMD issues" and "Known Product limitations"? Sort of like nVidia does in their driver release notes. Is there an online version of driver release notes with such details?

 

I'm just typing out loud here, but this is taken from AMD's website:

AMD Enduro technology requires either an AMD “A” series or “E” series APU or an Intel processor, plus an AMD Radeon™ HD 7000M series discrete graphics configuration and is available on Windows® 7 Professional, Windows® 7 Ultimate, Windows® 7 Home Premium, and/or Windows® 7 Home Basic OS. Linux OS supports manual switching which requires restart of X-Server to switch between graphics solutions. Not all AMD Radeon™ HD 7000M series GPU features and capabilities may be supported on all AMD Enduro technology-enabled components or systems – always check with your component or system manufacturer for specific mode capabilities and supported technologies.

(emphasis mine)

Anybody out there with a dual-boot Clevo EM-series machine and a 7970M that can run some benchies or try this out? Or has this been done in a thread somewhere already? Even so, at the very least that seems to indicate to me that the OS can work around Enduro if given a chance, thus it can possibly be programmed into a new patch/updated driver, etc. Heck, maybe it would be something Microsoft would have to do for Windows, who knows, but hopefully it is not an insurmountable hardware issue like some are saying.

Also, I noticed there is nothing on Wikipedia yet about Enduro (at least, not this flavor). I'm also interested in seeing what hulawafu77's blogger contact has to say about this issue. Should make for some good reading!

 

If you're interested, then post on the threads. Tell a bit of your story and your frustrations. More people post, the more convincing it will be. Those who don't have GCN mobile chips may be skeptical. It only takes 5 minutes, but the result could be what we have been looking for.

This won't work unless people make some noise, it's that simple. Complaining on NBR won't do anything. AMD just doesn't care until it becomes a thorn in their butt. If you've taken the time to vent your frustration on NBR and want this fixed, then I don't see making a few posts on forums/blogs/tech review sites that AMD has relations with is unreasonable or difficult.

 

Ok. An AMD representative finally gave us a some kind of response: "I have monitored this thread since it began. I appreciate the efforts of those that have contributed, and those that have posted in this forum in search of additional help or information. While I do not have any solutions to offer at this point in time, I do know that AMD is aware of this issue and is investigating root causes and potential solutions.

;Marc (a forum moderator)
-------------------------
AMD Customer Care"

Taken from AMD forums. It's not much, but its a start.

 

that's a start

 

CatalystCreator says they are investigating the issue. Nothing, more, I have no idea what that means. Caveman-jim says he has forwarded the information posted to AMD and they will have an answer for him tomorrow.

Hooray! Finally some headway.

Twitter / CatalystCreator: For those with 7970M - Enduro ...

 

Thanks for bringing this issue to Rage3D. If I can help, I will certainly try.

Hit me up on twitter (@cavemanjim) or at Rage3D.com forums if you want to discuss something.


I spoke with AMD today, passing on some details from the posts in the thread on Rage3D. The good news is this has got their attention, the bad news is there's not an immediate response other than this:

I hope to hear back from AMD tomorrow, with more to come in future.

I know how frustrating it is spend your hard earned cash on something only for it to not work how it's supposed to - a misbehaving Rage 128 is the reason I joined Rage3D all those years ago - so I'm hoping to get you guys some help and resolution.

 

Thank you, sir! And I agree with hula, when I get home I will get on some of these other sites as well.

 

Thank you for your help and feedback! I was feeling kinda lost in this situation.

I hope that the issue is solved asap (and they keep us posted), or if it's not possible to solve at least inform us about that.


Please keep us posted even if it's only to say that you have no news

Thank you again,
Best Regards to all

 

Glad to hear that it's being worked on. I'm still within the 30 day return policy. I did call powernotebook and was offered an option to swap out the video card to a 680M. It's $245 plus shipping, which is going to round up about $300. Now, I have a little dilemma here.
(1) $300 is a lot of money.
(2) I don't feel like being out without a computer for 2-3 weeks.
(3) I just have a gut feeling this is going to get fixed, and I will feel like a total idiot making the swap.
(4) Gaming on BF3 looks smooth (at least to me). I see a lot of tearing when playing indoor maps (particularly the walls, stairs.. etc), and explosions. The extend of the problem is not as bad (or even close) to what most people are having, since my game is still smooth.
(5) I had that horrible dud GeForce 5900GT video card experience and that left a mark. That's why I'm totally paranoid about this issue now.

Decisions decisions decisions................. what to do what to do what to do........

 

I also have the same dilemma... Should we wait or not wait, that is the question.

Let's wait for more feedback tomorrow.

 

No one knows, the only sure bet is to swap the cards out because we know already that nVidias solutions seem to work well with most games etc... If AMD fixes the issue, well then ya you will feel like you wasted money, except no one knows how long they will take, are you willing to wait 2 months? My 7950 on a HTPC has has an outstanding HDMI audio issue and odd switching behavior for screens for 3 months now with no resolution. So you could look at it as $300 to be able to fully use your computer now.
The other scary option is that AMD will essentailly never fix it. According to a friend with an HP and AMDs last gen chips this is exactly what happened to him. Luckily he had a bios update option to just disable enduro but that option does not look like its coming.

 

Guys, don't wait. $300 more is a very generous offer, this is almost like ordering it from the store. Just to help you comprehend how generous this offer is, I've paid 325 Euros(!!!) more to get the 680M from MySN (I HATE the European prices, sheesh..) straight out of the store.

I don't know about you, but since you paid so much for a high-end laptop, why gamble with it? Even if it does get fixed eventually, there's still the aggravation until it does. You didn't pay so much just for wishful thinking and 'having a gut feeling it will get fixed'. And what if it doesn't? Face it, you took the gamble on AMD and they obviously failed you, why not cut your losses now while you still can? So what if you'll lose your laptop for a few weeks, you'll get a superior product and some piece of mind. Just take the offer. You'll be sorry if you didn't.

And no, I have no shares in nVIDIA. I'm not a fan of greedy companies, be it nVIDIA or AMD, as they both equally suck. I am a fan of common sense, though, and I want my fellow gamers to enjoy their purchase and not worry about whether it'll ever work properly or not.

 

That's exactly why I went for the gtx680m. Im based abroad. And did not look forward to shipping my laptop back later. Took the sure bet, and did not regret it.

Its important to note that I did this because we know the 680m works. And I wanted something that worked.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

What is the point of these posts? This is a thread to get backing for a solution to the issue because the vast majority cannot/do not want to spend an extra 300$.

If you switched to 680M then good for you, leave us out of it because we're well aware that the 680M exists and now there seems to be some headway with the issue thanks to the gentleman who brought AMD's attention to the issue.

 

Sorry, don't mean to step on anybody's toes. The point of my post is that Mighty_Benduru and MeNtAl_DaRkNeSs were offered the switch and contemplated on doing it, not to rub it in.

You really don't have to take it out on us...

 

I would like to thank everyone who posted here and in other forums. I would especially like to thank hulawafu77 for all his efforts
I think we got a great success, we did amd officially comment on the issue. We must be vigilant to demand concrete results soon.
I also have learned a great lesson: sometimes we need to show off the NBR to succeed in our goals

Best regards to all

 

i believe amd must address this issue since this will affect every machine now and the future with enduro enable