Name & Shame vs Peer Moderation

As some of you are starting to be aware - the Name & Shame threads are really starting to be destructive. Not just to the businesses they "name" but to the forum itself. Far from being useful, they create near hysteria in the forums, cause conflict between vendors and customers, and conflict between users and users.

My own participation in these threads is usually to exert something known as peer moderation. Example: Guy initiates thread Friday night at 11:00 pm screaming about how his new laptop that he just unboxed has some perceived flaw or issue -- that he's emailed his vendor (or not) and it's been 3 hours and he's heard nothing.... I usually reply with "hey buddy -- it's Friday at 11:00pm - contact your vendor on Monday and try to resolve your issue through their resolution process". This is a polite way of saying STFU and don't come here screaming about the sky is falling when you have yet to even give any reasonable attempt to resolve your issue through the proper channels (the important word is reasonable).

The problem with peer moderation is that unless there is a strong consensus amongst the forum participants where the message is reinforced - ie -- Dude - take your complaint through proper channels before starting a thread making a complaint --- these threads take on a life of their own and reputations are unfairly maligned AND WE ALL LOSE.

So how about we develop some general guidelines in this thread that we can all point to to to reinforce the rules we want on the forum. Then when a thread like this is initiated we all point to the rules thread (and a moderator can lock or delete the thread before it gets any life). We use the power of peer-ship to reinforce the behaviors we want on the forum.

The key to making this style of moderation work is that we all act consistently and don't add fuel to the threads that should be ignored beyond the "contact your vendor and go through their resolution process" answer.

Just some thoughts.

 

Well explained and thought out thoughts. I would agree, and I surely do, but such things are going to happen no matter what. It's the moderators job to hold the realm clean (in this case, the Sager forum). Resellers are being flooded into oblivion once a mistake is made and it's hard not to feel passionate towards both sides.

I would suggest giving the moderation power to 2 or 3 people that are insanely active here and have been here since anno 2010 or even before. No name dropping, everyone knows them.

But back on topic, where is the limit between a rage thread with good manners and insanely good points, that actually makes sense and a rage thread with something regarding a rather slow UPS transport.

 

There are already 2 moderators here that do a great job, the problem is that people have to articulate there thoughts and sometimes research the problem at hand or look at it in a more calmly manner.

But nevertheless we definitely needed a thread stating this.

 

They are, never questioned nor did I doubt they work. But they cannot be awake 24/7.

On the other hand this is a matter of us normal members making it worse than it is by commenting and spreading/bumping the news. You can never tell who is wrong and right in these kind of situations... when should one post then?

 

Personally I think the best thing that can happen to these threads is for absolutely NO ONE to reply to them. Manufacturer/Reseller at fault (or not) included.

No good ever comes of these types of threads. Its full of misinformation and someone who even though they have a decent reason to be mad - more then likely are not thinking clearly and/or taking the correct actions to get their issue resolved. Until they get an absolute answer or some type of resolution to their problem, the threads should just be deleted. If they are expressing a concern that they think they were treated wrongly by xyz reseller and the way their issue was handled - then I would say they have the right to air their concern. I would venture to guess these threads would be very few and far between because most of these resellers will do everything in their power to make sure the customer is happy. If the customer isn't happy, its more then likely because of unreasonable expectations.

 

I actually disagree for 1 reason - perception.
Most of the reviews on these resellers are good...but are those the only reviews allowed? Is positive feedback the only type of feedback allowed on NBR? I understand if someone is just flaming away because they're angry - I can agree with you in stating maybe some moderation is needed but when you have a legitimate complaint and/or review I think it is perfectly acceptable to post it. There are two sides to every coin and people (myself included) use these forums as a type of seller/reseller feedback, product review, etc. If it tarnishes a company so be it - they need to step it up in whatever they dropped the ball with, period.

 

Reviewing a company is a good thing whether it is positive or negative.

Some of the more recent hate threads vs a certain reseller have been more flaming than review. One guy didn't even submit a thread to the reseller ffs... I think that another guy hadn't emailed his reseller in over a month then said "I want my moneiz back NAO" (maybe same guy, I can't remember). I understand that if something bad happens then you want to talk about it and share it but try to solve your issues in private before jumping into public.

This guy has it down: [UPDATE #2] I don't know what's up with Fnatic's shop, I ordered something in September Last year, and haven't heard anything from them. I'm Down ?149.29 and nobody will respond. : starcraft .

 

Reviews, positive or not are a good thing.

Let me take a stab at these quick guidelines prior to posting reviews, that go a little beyond the usual "please respect the forums rules" reminder.

1. Take a breather. Inhale through nose, exhale through mouth. Slowly. Repeat a few times.
   
   Please do this whether you feel like today is Christmas morning with unicorns and bacon or like you're about to explode spewing raw sewage all over the reseller/UPS/USPS/Sager/Clevo's front porch.
   
   You're calmed down now? Good.
   
2. Posting a positive review? Great, make sure to keep the hype down and the facts plentiful. You're done here.
   
3. Posting a negative review? Great too. But, now that you've calmed down (if not, go back to step 1.) let's just make sure we cover the following steps before clicking that send button.
   
4. Is the issue actually with the reseller? Shipping issues once the package has left are probably mostly out of their control.
   
5. Have you tried the normal issue resolution processes? Resellers have lives outside of work and while you might get lucky with a reply in the middle of the night, take that as a bonus, not Standard Operating Procedure.
   Think business hours and workdays. Phone calls or e-mails, with some time for an actual reply. 24 to 48 hours isn't a bad number.
   
6. No replies? A completely unsatisfactory one? Then yeah, a negative review may be warranted. Try to keep it rational, polite and to the point. A frothing mad rant makes me go into tl;dr mode in less time than it takes my screen to refresh.
   
7. The BBB also keeps tabs on the resellers, you could file a complaint there and see how that goes. (If you've reached that point, it's usually safe to say you wouldn't buy there again.)

 

Every forum there is a guy that wants to be the "good guy philosopher" here is DogsoverLava

 

Your comment is not a productive one.

@Darkshado: Those sound like a solid points. I agree.

 

It's disheartening sometimes to know that people actually need those lists though. It seems like common sense.

 

It seems as though people interpret this as "no negative reviews allowed". That couldn't be further from the truth. I just believe from what I've seen, and I've been reading here much longer then posting - that 95% + of the negative stuff would have more then likely been never posted if the person would have calmed down, taken the normal, sane, adult approach of contacting the reseller DIRECTLY in the first place and allowed the a fair amount of time to correct the problem.

Think of how many threads you read about someone steaming and throwing xyz company under the bus only to get to their last post and say oh hey... they took care of my issue I guess they aren't so bad. Sometimes I think these boards are populated by 15 year old little girls that just broke their fancy nails for the first time! I mean this as a light hearted joke, so please dont try to turn the tables with that joke.

 

Exactly.. I often times wonder how much better off the forum would be if everyone had to go through a training course before posting

"Is this post relevant to the topic of the thread?"
"Is a thread with the exact same topic already available?"
"Should this be answered by my reseller?"
And no matter how many "Read before posting" threads get stickied, maybe 1/3 (or less) people ever actually read them..

Concerning the reseller's, everyone is entitled to their opinion. You'd think it would be common sense on what's appropriate to say and when, but it's not for some people. I agree that we may need a bit more moderation or a procedure when it comes to reseller reviews.. Really bad reviews tend to set people off and make them automatically think that company is awful, basing their opinion on the single review. And lets face it, how many times have we seen someone who has gone through the proper proceedures with their problem, and still had a legitimately bad thing to say? I welcome negative reviews probably more than positive ones. But only if the person has tried to get help and they aren't getting it..

 

I believe that considering there is sub-forum called "Reseller Feedback Forum" that as long as someone is not trolling, their feedback should not be closed off whether negative or positive.

That is the point of a reseller feedback forum, is it not?

 

While I generally agree, I guess one of the other aspects of reading/checking reviews is being smart enough to filter out or judge the validity of the cases for yourself. So sure there may be some unjustified complaints, but it usually is quite clear from the thread after others and possibly vendors have replied. You will never be able to force all people to be logical and level headed, but you can control yourself and what you take from them.

It's similar to buyer beware, but in this case it's the person checking reviews that has to beware.

 

Oy.

Have you read ANYTHING we've been talking about or just the first couple sentences?

 

Maybe there should just be a consensus to not post in those threads. If we could get this stickied, people might read it first before trolling the resellers. And of course, we could report them if they keep getting bumped. Perhaps our mods could put a warning in their sigs saying not to flame resellers without good reason?

I think I know who you're talking about

If the company was always responsible for thing like slow shipping, that could make sense, but flaming them when they did nothing wrong is not okay.

It wasn't even grammatically correct. Of course, a thread like this is bound to attract trolls...

 

Wow I totally disagree with the sentiment expressed, that complaints don't belong here and that people should "STFU" (the original poster actually said this) and ONLY deal directly with their vendor.

There have been many legitimate complaints with unusual purchase results, it's not fair nor true to say they're almost all bunk.
When they are, it usually doesn't take long to figure out. It's useful for people to have an outlet to find out how to handle problems when the normal process is broken. Several problems have been resolved here that wouldn't have been otherwise.

As a percent of purchases problems are usually small, but there have been patterns of bad results with a particular vendor that was revealed in past. The information shared here saved bunches of people from getting ripped I'm sure.

I'm actually continually amazed at how low the complaint rate is for sager/clevo resellers compared to more famous brand sellers.

No need for gestapo censorship, we can sort out ourselves what to think.

If Malibal wants to be pouty and take their ball home that's their right but no need to change the forum for them.
Let the user community speak freely, both the complainers and the people ridiculing them.

 

I disagree to an extent.

I think that people should go to their resellers BEFORE coming to us and giving the resellers a chance to do something. We don't want people to post their issues and say the reseller is bad without giving them a chance to rectify their mistake.

If after that contact nothing happens or if the email is ignored (think 3 business days), then by all means post.

I'm not advocating burying the issue either. If you didn't get something that you should've gotten then feel free to mention it in a review, but also say whether the mistake was fixed promptly or not etc... Don't "do it live".

 

Wasn't disagreeing with it

 

Whatever the good intentions of this thread, you aren't going to stop people flaming or raising issues without contacting resellers first, or teach basic human interaction for that matter.
Any forum is regulated by it's members with their responses, and decent mods. I really can't see what else can be done.

 

We have moderators. If they feel a thread is inappropriate they will do something about it. That's why they are moderators, not you, not me, not anyone on NBR. There is no need for a moderation union

 

True. The mods on this forum are pretty good as far as I can see.

 

Forums like this are a great way to spread information and companies who participate in them can get their name out there and build up loyalty and regard at the same time.

However, there is a certain nature about open forums that make them dangerous for companies. People are very susceptible to "temporary passions" that can become very contagious. Some people demand unreasonable things or tell skewed versions of stories that are going to damage the reputation of companies. Regardless of how good your damage control is, that is going to hurt and it can sometimes spiral out of control.

Any sort of organization needs to take precautions against fleeting and temporary passions. In government, it's actually one of the biggest arguments against full democracies - people can get pretty crazy. No need to make the forum like a police state, but I think forum members should be educated on how to post criticisms and how to react to others' criticisms. It should be a basic life skill, honestly, but here we are.

 

Dude - that's totally NOT the sentiment expressed here at all, nor is it contextually related to what I said.

 

They do both contain STFU though
Same thing right?

 

This is perfect IMO. Negative reviews should be as well thought-out as positive reviews. A couple of sales reps were cold/uninterested with me when I was researching my options. I'm definitely NOT mentioning who they are in any review, potentially taking business away from them. Just because I don't feel comfortable giving them my money (since this is my choice), it doesn't mean I should influence other people to do so as well

 

Is it just me or why didnt anyone ask something. Go through all the negative reviews and actually count how many of those posters did not actually contact their reseller, now go and count how many negative reviews in total. Do the math and ask yourself, are you, the OP, being biased?

I have not gone through every single thread, do not have the time, but in the recent few weeks since I been trying to purchase a laptop, I have been going through most of the reviews. Out of the reviews I have been looking through, it actually seems like most are legit and they actually did contact the reseller. I think there was only one which did not contact the reseller, because the reseller came here to post saying so, but all the others were actually reviews concerning correspondence with the resellers and about bad treatment or bad customer service.

No doubt I will not be able to go through the whole history of NBR and find all negative threads to tabulate a percentage, but from my past few weeks I actually feel that most reviews warrant attention. Sometimes people see one bad incident and they start to stereotype. You see one Chinese doing good in mathematics, you do not say he is good in mathematics, you tell yourself that all Chinese are good in mathematics. This happens everywhere and I think this thread is bias in itself when it itself is talking about a "better justice" system, but yet does not have any concrete numbers. From my memory of the recent Malibal negative reviews, maybe 1/4( or maybe 1/5) actually had a poster who did not contact the reseller before posting here. Are you saying that just because of ONE guy we have to change how we plan to post on NBR forums?

The irony.

 

I don't know why people are calling for more moderation or ways in which to limit the opinions expressed by forum members regarding retailers and interactions with them. I'm more than capable of reviewing the data and coming to my own conclusion, and I don't need someone else to do that for me.

A vender's reaction to a negative thread, whether the complaints have merit or not, is just as important as their reaction to a positive thread. After seeing a certain entity's reaction to negative comments, regardless of their validity or where the fault lies, I was able to confirm my own suspicions and come to my own conclusion. Any company will come off as being great when there are no issues associated with the transaction. Seeing how a company reacts to issues, imaginary or not, allows the consumer to get a good understanding of their values and mentality as a company.

I can tell you this, a great way to lose customers is by responding negatively or defensively to the consumer expressing dissatisfaction. If the company is not at fault, we can easily see through the BS, so there's no need to over-react, which is what happened previously.

 

This is a discussion forum and we have to take the good with the bad. Yeah, it's true some users need to take a Valium before they decide to post, but I'd take old fashioned moderation compared to this route.

 

I agree. Mostly.

The internet is the only place where the truth is to be told, even though is some are lies. It's a chance we've got to take, don't forgot all of the good praising we've got around too

 

I have read, and it seems to be that reviews in themselves are bad and that they should be monitored more closely. Which, my point is that the mods have created a forum specifically for reseller feedback, which implies that reviews on this site are encouraged, and that is regardless of how good or bad it is for a reseller.

Is my point coming across or am I not communicating well

 

That's the same in any forum. It's not a group of experts, but anybody who buys these products. The reviews are always going to be variable. It's up to the those reading these reviews to make their own judgements based on what they've seen. There is only so much moderators can do.

 

I think some of you may have misconstrued what I mean by "peer moderation". (or I may have been deficient or lacking in my explanation.)

Peer moderation is basically invisible -- it functions this way: We the users are the peers. As peers we have created a culture here and we have moderators that enforce rules etc and do their official duties ---- but as peers we have the affect of moderating by how we encourage or discourage users to abide by the rules or the culture here just through how we interact with them.

Here's an example: Littering is against the law in my country. We have police that impose fines etc for littering.... but the reality is that resources (police resources) are thin and littering is not something they are actively policing ---- Now peer moderation works this way: I'm in my car -- we are driving down a country road -- one of my buddies in the car rolls down the window and pitches a McDonald's bag out the window. I look at him and say "Dude -- what are you doing?" --- Now at this point I'm one guy of a bunch in the car -- now if every other guys in the car goes - "ya dude - that was idiotic - wft?" then as peers we have "moderated".... it will be very unlikely that this person will roll down the window while we are all in the car again and pitch out trash again ---- BUT -- if 1 or 2 other guys in the car say to me (after making the initial comment) -- "Hey - lighten up -- it's hardly a major crime -- who gives a " -- well then it's pretty much open season on littering isnt it? ---- That's what I'm suggesting as it relates to complaint threads that on their face are clearly without merit --- I'm suggesting that we use our collective influence to give the same message --- This is in effect " Peer Moderation".

And I'm very specifically talking about threads that are started where it is obvious that the poster has yet to follow reasonable protocol with regards to resolving issues or complaints with vendors -- or complaints that are clearly without merit and have inflammatory and/or misinformation in their titles etc... I'm not suggesting that any Moderators get Moderation happy and that Negative posts get censored or discouraged -- I'm suggesting that the community respond with more unity to posts that are clearly without merit and clearly are unfair or untimely in their criticism (ie, being pissed off because their PM or email to a company sent at 8:30 pm on a Friday has yet to have a response by 11:30 pm... you get the picture).

 

Agreed 100%. I can't even believe we're having this discussion. Most people should be able to understand when a consumer on here is being unreasonable in their expectations. I've seen it here a few times and every time the other users have chimed in to let them know they've been unreasonable. We're not a bunch of morons.

 

No offense, but it sounds like you're explaining, more or less, what is already the norm here from my observations.

 

'Scuse me, maybe you should read post #12 again, because that's exactly the opposite of what this topic is about. Complaints are fine, complaints can help a company improve, but you're talking like you didn't just see what happened to Malibal. Those weren't complaints, they were trolls jumping to conclusions and making a ridiculous scene. It was costing Malibal business, bro. These things are dangerous.

 

Ah yes, cold, uninterested sales reps might have something to do with the fact that this is a launch month and everyone's really busy. The last thing they need is more orders all at once, so remember that they're human too and need some slack while this backlog gets sorted out Has anyone noticed that all of our NBR resellers have slowed down here a little for the past week or so?

 

I don't know about this. I think Malibal did more damage to themselves by being overly defensive and making personal attacks in multiple diatribes. Their posts had to be edited by moderators. That was infinitely worse than what was said by forum users, IMO. Malibal wasn't an innocent victim

 

And honestly, maybe I missed some threads that got deleted or something, but the ones I saw where certain companies basically flipped out, the consumers had valid points and seemed to be approaching the issue with an open mind, not anger, hoping it was just a single employee. I don't see how it could have been read any other way.

 

+1

Malibal basically dug the hole themselves by getting all personal with the attacks

 

+1 as well. But, I agree with the use of other avenues to deal with issues and used the BBB method.

 

So you don't see that your attitude of judging people who are unhappy to be automatically wrong creates conflict?

How about if I tell you to STFU is that conflict-free? How about if I'm feeling polite while I say it? Cool with everyone now?

Look in the mirror about whether you're the cause of the problem that you're complaining about.

People spend what they feel like is a lot of money for something that is not meeting their expectations. A vendor responded childishly to complaints. That's all that's happened.

 

No, they definitely weren't an innocent victim, but they were still a victim nonetheless. The USPS being slow isn't exactly their fault. By the way, they came back (or at least are thinking about it) in the 7970m topic, but there's a troll trying to get them to leave. Maybe we should see if this peer pressure thing works...

To the guy above me: he's not saying that people who are unhappy are wrong. He's saying that if something doesn't work the way you expect it to, you should at least try and solve it with the reseller (and your expectations need to be reasonable, no crying because they didn't instantly respond to that email you sent at 3am) and be sure that they won't help you without some bad publicity first before blowing your stack here. Also, there are really some legitimately incompetent companies out there, so we're not saying everyone's perfect. This is not necessarily referring to sager resellers, BTW.

 

The USPS one wasn't the only complaint.

 

I know, I'm just using it as an example that both parties were guilty.

 

People that are mad are 100% more likely to find a forum and post their comments than a person who is 100% satisfied. I tend to listen to the positive posts more than I do the negative posts. If a seller has a ton of positives posts it sits very well with me, yes it does. You also have to consider the source of each post and what their problem entails and then what technical background they have vs what is going on in their situation. A large number of users get way in over their heads, then again a large number of buyers also fail to do the proper amount of research before they buy and then they start complaining away. You just have to exercise your own common sense when reading threads and try to be helpful when you can, if you can. Otherwise just stay out of it and let the mods deal with it. Read the forum rules and know when to mod alert for a post. The more you know!

 

So completely misconstruing everything I wrote that it's shocking.

 

Keeping a very close look on this thread..

Interesting ideas but I was a fellow member like everyone before I was offered to become a moderator for the forums..

As a forum member I liked how the forum was like an agora, just like the outside world- a gathering of all sorts of people with different intents and purposes.

I personally don't moderate often but just fix threads that get way out of hand, because I feel that everyone is entitled to their own opinions and methods.

It's just like a microcosm, and I feel that we're all adults capable of thinking about the ramifications of threads we post and comments we write.

All in all, I am really thankful of all you guys as you guys make this forum the wonderful place as it is, and I even as a mod try not to intervene even if the threads are a bit childish or emotional- those people need to learn themselves through experience, not through the big brother type moderation.

Sent from my SHW-M250L using Tapatalk 2

 

We love you too, Ryan, especially after posts like this! I couldn't agree more.