Why does sager use the slower gtx 1070 max Q in the p950ER

The problem is not only with Max-Q, ODMs are selling the regular models also under the same scheme:

Mobile 1080 is 150W-200W
Mobile 1070 is 90W-125W
Mobile 1060 is 78-88W

Max-Q 1080 is 90-110W
Max-Q 1070 is 80-90W
Max-Q 1060 is 60-70W

e.g. a full 1080 in an Alienware is only 150W, while the same card is 200W in an MSI.

When NVIDA was planning their Max-Q branding Clevo wanted to push the other way and requested permission to start an OC branding, which NVIDIA denied!
Even though their PA7 model uses a 125W 1070, they are not allowed to advertise it as anything but a 1070. Now when you purchase an MXM-b format 1070, which doesn't carry a Max-Q branding it is only 90W.

What a mess NVIDIA allowed to happen...

 

OMFG so someone with 1080N might get a 150w or a 200w TDP depending on his luck ?
Typical Nvidia, they would use the 200w benchmarks while bragging about the portability of the 150w version.....

So Clevo wanted to Oc the max-Q ...
And when denied opted to downclock it(using the 80w version) ? wtf Clevo ?





If we assume the 115w card is 100%
90W 1070MQ 96%~94%
80w 1070MQ 91%~87%

Why didn't sager use the 90w if they were so concerned about performance


This an average of the graphics score of firestrike when the card is overclocked(normal overclocking).

You can see that the sager P95XER on average performs as the worst 1070MQ out there.maybe it's because of retailers using a gimped vbios or the 150w PSU or thermal throttling. I can't get my head around why It's below the GS65

Worth noting that clevo also has the highest variation in scores


Note 1: the 80w max q can pull up to 90w
The 90w max q can pull up to 100w

Note 2: I didn't include the PA70ES because there were alot of results that were obviously made with modded TDP(20~21k)

Note 3:Sample size:96(16 for every laptop. Got them from 3dmark website + personal reviews from NBR and reddit)

Note 4: didn't include the GT62 or the helios 500 on purpose since I don't consider them mainstream laptops. There avrages are in the 18.5~19K area

Note 5: tried to make this as accurate as I can. But I don't guarantee it's 100% accurate

 

No Clevo wanted to market their higher TDP models e.g. as 1070 OC to set them apart from the default 1070.
The PA7 results are not modded, they use the 125W variant right from factory.

 

Does the 125w 1070 constantly reach 21k 3d mark FS graphics score without raising TDP to 200W ?

I doubt it

 

They are overclocked but not power modded.

This is the real-life power draw of a stock Clevo 125W 1070 as found in the PA7 models:



An unmodded default 115W 1070 tops out at about 20k, a modded one between 22-23k (FS GPU-score):

https://www.3dmark.com/fs/14556678

 

I'll add the PA70ES to the chart soon. But the top scorer for the PA70 with the i7 8750H scored only 18600 graphics.


Peaks are Different than average. Which is 17850 for the 150w 1070 in the GE63VR raider and 17200 in the gm501, and that's OC'ed(hint: thermal throttling)

Average is way more important than NBR heavily modded peaks. Since the majority of people want plug-UV the cpu- and play


Btw: can the 1070MQ be modded to reach 17k-18k ?

 

We have yet to see what a modded P9 or PA7 is capable of, but you will need a larger PSU, that's for sure.
Everything up to this point is still stock...

 

Can the 1070MQ be "modded" to 18k too(assume the thermal headroom exists) ?

 

Sure, assuming BIOS/EC & vBIOS limits are lifted and the stock Power Supply Unit is replaced with one of sufficient capacity.
But, it won't be silent no more, that's for sure...

 

Who did so many people manage to do it with the 1070 but no one did it with 1070MQ ?

And Btw : should P650HS scores between 20.5k and 19.5k be labelled OC or modded ?

 

Overclocker usually prefer the Clevo LGA models...

P6 can do that OC on the right stock firmware...unless the BIOS/EC are also modded, just raising the TDP would result in increased CPU throttle and lower overall performance.

 

Updated chart

Is there any guide on how to "un-max Q" the 1070MQ ?
Its already loud at 54db anyway, we might as well get good performance from it.

 

Clevo 125W 19.5K results aren't modded and a 150W stock MSI 1070? Where did that come from? That's either a Mod or a misunderstanding.

 

For the clevo there are 21k results. The average come as 19.7k. But if that's stock OC than I'll update it

What's the TDP at 19.5k ? 125w ?

I was told by an msi fan that all msi laptops with 1070 come with a 150w TDP

 

I think using 19.5k for Clevo 125W would be fair without getting into the modded area.

There is an MSI MXM which has a very good hardware, but it still shipped with regular lower TDP firmware, I think they like to call it 150W because that's what most Mod user settled on when using it as base.

Fun fact, very early 1070 alpha versions where indeed tested on 150W but they never made it to MP.

 

So stock the MSI GE63 VR is 115w correct ?

 

@Prema
Update 3

Can you please tell me how to un-max Q a card ?

 

You probably meant to tag @Prema . Perma probably dont know how

 

So I am just trying to clarify for myself, do Clevo resellers (XMG, Xoticpc, HID, Gentech, etc) have different TDPs for their 1070maxq for the P950/955er? Is this something the can change?

Thanks.

 

A stock 80W 1070MQ has a power limit target of 80w and a limit of 90w.

Some resellers lowered the limit to 80w. Most resellers are using a 150w PSU to force the card to run at lower clocks.



There are currently 3 patterns that are flotting around

1 920mhz clocks with 1100mhz maximum(cough eurocom Q6). Here you're properly looking at 10% slower than a stock 1060

2 1200mhz clocks never crossing ~1250mhz. 5% faster than a gtx 1060

3 stock 1070MQ 80W performance :1316mhz avreage with maximum of 1544mhz. 18% faster than a gtx 1060. Expect loudness of 54db if you get it.

To put in perspective, the 90W 1070MQ is 1544mhz average stock with a maximum of 1721mhz. 27% faster than a gtx 1060

Roll the dice and hope that RNG is on your side. Or buy a laptop from a company that has some standards for drivers

THE EXACT SAME ****ING LAPTOP(P950)FROM TWO DIFFERENT RESELLERS:

Good reseller

Bad reseller


@Danishblunt

You see that abomination in the second result ? 61db speakers ? with max fans at 55db, yeah you're totally not going to feel that at all

 

Sorry what does RNG mean?

 

Random number generator.

What I meant by that is that it's like lottery. You'll get on of the 3 patterns for GPU performance. You might get a good speaker or a mediocre one or a **** one . All of that depends on the resellers who isn't going to update his drivers for your preference(they lower GPU performance to lower fan noise). The smart thing would be expecting the worst or paying for the top ones(HIDevoultion). But once you get into the 2k doller range-good drivers or not- this laptop isn't worth it as you have the vastly superior aero 15x.

I can only say that according to the people here, if you get it from gentechpc you'll get it with pattern 3 for the GPU. But I can't guarantee the speakers.

 

Clevo set the TDP at 80W for every chassis. The chassis comes from Clevo with a 150W PSU, that's why most resellers ship to their customers with 150W as it's the default option.

I'm familiar with the Q6 figures from nbc review as I commented on them previously. Could you direct me to 2/ and 3/ with those clock speeds and fan noise levels under the same test conditions and software? Would be really helpful to see the direct results.

 

Yes I know that. Put keep in mind that a stock 1070mq 80w can pull 90w in power. Put in the Q6 it maxes out at 80w(AKA GUTTING)

150w isn't sufficent if you want the card at max power. Why would razer make a slim 230W power adapter if they could have made a much slimmer 150w one ? Because 150w isn't sufficent(most likely) . Still waiting on your results here

Pattern 2 :

https://m.pclab.pl/art74974-2

"is the latest energy-saving version of the mobile system, which TDP is limited to 80-90 W, depending on the manufacturer of the laptop.The GPU has not been truncated in any way, so we still have 2048 CUDA units at our disposal, but their timing has been significantly slowed down. The base clock frequency is 1101 MHz, and in turbo mode the graphics core can accelerate to 1266 MHz. In The Witcher 3, the actual clock speed oscillated around 1200 MHz. The limitation was the power consumption limit, which is rigidly set to 80 W."

They couldn't get the card to run above 1240mhz no matter what



Jarrod's tech about his metabox P950HR

Pattern 3



https://m.imgur.com/a/FoJB3fY

Pattern 2 and 1 are causing the P95XER to perform like the worst 1070MQ on average.

I don't keep tabs on fan noise since I don't care about that(KSA here with 60db+ AC). Put I assumed higher clocks = higher fan noise. Might be wrong though.

@XMG
I truely hope clevo gives us an upgraded P650, The P950 truely sucks

 

I wonder if this is with Max Q fan mode on? I was under the impression it lets the PC warm up more to be quieter with this mode; more temperature lower perf?

I've actually got the Metabox P950HR and with fan on automatic in game it fluctuates between 1220 and 1530, but it spends more time at 1530 than at 1220, occasionally sits somewhere in between the two. Likewise with a +170mhz overclock it sits at around 1700mhz for a while then wanders down and up as load changes. It has got a 180W PSU (as opposed to 150w), fan is fan on Automatic, High temps here are during gaming and hit a high of about 63 degrees, on Furmark it's run on the lower side of boost even from the start which is interesting, ( almost like nVidia drivers know what it is) but doesn't get above 73 deg on Auto... No issues here, wonder if it's the other brandings or if that Metabox above is genuinely a dudd.. I can't OC mine past 170 so it's not like it's above average silicone running cooler or something. Happy to post GPU z loads of games provided i have it if that helps at all.

EDIT: So i've been watching my Mhz and it's been in 1696 mhz for 5 minutes with 1 or 2 drops, then b possibly corresponding with me pausing the game, then back up for another 5-8 mins solid , etc for about 45 mins... temp hasn't gone above 63dC.

 

1 can you give me a picture of GPU Z for 1070MQ

2 can you run Firestrike witha 170mhz OC on core another one on memory ?

 

Yup, I was just pointing out that every P95*ER that leaves the Clevo factory is 80W - to defend Eurocom a little (and unless they want to comment otherwise) they have the exact same version and settings to everyone else.

Upgraded P650 - well a few months ago I confirmed that it was EOL in current form but to watch this space. MAX-Q chassis isn't going to be a long term replacement for previous non-MAX-Q chassis ;-)

 

I still remember the MAX Q thread in which you guys prompted this MQ stuff as an "option". Then you cancelled the vastly supiriuor P650 to make sure it doesn't cannibalize P950 sales, your "alternative" is a 17 inch laptop ........

All we need is :
0.9'~0.8'
2.3KG~2.4KG
gtx 1070 laptop with MUX switch
a large battery(instead of the outdated 2.5' slot)
15.6' 1080P 144hz thin bezel screen
RGB per key
two M.2 Slots
No more LTE gimmicks
1800$ for 512GB SSD version

With clevo it's either too thin(p950) or too thick(p650)

 

There is the 17.3 inch which is still very portable.

 

You've quoted me but I don't understand what your point is. Who do you refer to when you say 'you' and 'your? Can't be me, I/we didn't cancel the P650......

 

By you guys I meant the resellers. XoticPc,XMG, obsidian,sager. The majority of you were defending Max-Q as an option and that normal model will still be available.

And I AM CERTAIN that you guys have a say in clevo desicion. You're Clevo's middlemen, and the lack of a 15.6' 1070 non Max-Q option seems deliberate. So at the very least you're OK with the desicion.

By saying your I am talking about the resellers as a whole since I don't know anything about how individual resellers stand on the P950 apart from obsidian hating it.

 

A 17 inch is by it's nature Not portable. Its portable for a 17 incher I know but it's still 3KG.

Why is it so hard to release a 15 inch version of it ? Don't want it to render the P950 worthless ?

 

Ok, let's clear this up ;-)

- yes of course we have a say in Clevo's decisions (as a group of resellers/SIs). But you can't then say that at the very least we are "OK" with the decision, that's not logical. Clevo make the decision on many things which some resellers may or may not agree with. Like anything, sometimes the majority agrees and other times the majority disagrees. I can say for one that we (the company I represent) does not agree with the decision and I have said this on nbr before. It was me who confirmed that the chassis wouldn't be refreshed with Intel 8th Gen - as a perfect example, we still have stock and are selling the 7th Gen Intel version XMG P507. We still have stock because we saw this comming and made sure that we had as much as we could get before the production run stopped.

- if you can find where I have ever defended MAX-Q as an option please let me know. We discussed all this on May 18th, you seem to think that I am defending MAX-Q when clearly I am explaining the process from chip to ODM to reseller. I have never defended the 80W version in these chassis, I have only ever said that this is within the Nvidia thermal envelope - that's a fact which I am explaining. You're completely free to not like that fact, but just because I'm talking about it and explaining it, it doesn't equate to me defending it.

- Obsidian may hate the chassis, maybe that's why they only sell the GTX 1060 version. You may have realised that we also only sell the GTX 1060 version in our XMG range. We sell the 1060 and MAX-Q 1070 versions of the P955 as the SCHENKER 15 - this is in our business sub brand product range and not in our "XMG" gaming sub brand product range - very specifically for the reason that we did not want to market the 1070 MAX-Q in the P95* chassis as a gaming laptop or even more specifically something that would replace the P650. Again - it was a while back but I have explained this in depth in the past.

Thus when you say "your", I am not included and neither is the company I work for - haven't defended it, don't agree with it. What the other companies and forum reps' position is, I can't comment on.

Again, you're asking the wrong person. You're still angry with resellers when your problem, as discussed on 18 May, is with Clevo - not with me or @Meaker .

 

I said I don't know individual reseller positions. Kudos to XMG though.

Yes, your voice with clevo is limit. But, we(the consumers) channel our dissatisfaction to the middleman(resellers) who in turn should channel it to clevo. Your clevo customers, not us. And in turn we're your customers. So you should be speaking with our voice to clevo since clevo couldn't care less about us(after all, we're not there customers).

I only speak for myself. But the dissatisfaction for the lack of a proper 1070 15.6' laptop is loud. The dislike for the P950 is loud as well(see new clevos with Max-Q thread), it just seems we're screaming to a powerless middleman who simply takes what ever clevo throws their way(for the lake of a better phrasing)

Take for example the P950 biggest shortcoming: The bad battery life. I am certain the next generation will come with the same small battery while pointless things like LTE models or the outdated 2.5' slot takes their place.

Just my my two cents.

* I only speak for my self. Other clevo-based laptop customers might disagree.

 

Ok, so really we're on the same page. Seeing as we have similar thoughts, when we channel our own thoughts to the ODM we'e actually also channelling our customers - I don't want to sound big headed, but there is nothing which I have ever read on this forum which we haven't already raised in pre-production reports or discovered in pre-production (i.e. testing samples before they're released on to the market by an ODM). The result of these reports is a separate discussion and not something I really want to get into here, but it's the same with all ODMs, we shouldn't just focus on Clevo being the bad boys here. In some chassis, you've seen a larger battery appear to take the 2.5" HDD space - this wasn't in the original design spec but added in precisely because of customer feedback. Fact is, markets like Russia and China want that 2.5" drive and so do some customers in the rest of the word. The problem is, making the case for 2 different battery options in one chassis - it's more difficult than it sounds. You have design, thermals, recycling, complete secondary product certification for all markets - CE, FCC etc etc.

I would always prefer a larger battery and would quite comfortably do without a 2.5" drive to achieve this

 

A lot of users in the US look for the dual drive options with an SSD and HDD too.

 

They like it because it's there.

Battery life
2.5' slot

Pick one of the two only

See the new RB2018 selling like hotcakes despite having no 2.5' slot and only 1 M2 slot only. People sacrificed their storage options for the superior cooling and battery life.

The GS65 is the P950 biggest competitor and yet I've seen a single complain online about the lack of a 2.5' slot.

 

A lot care more about the bottom line, a 256gb SSD and 1-2tb HDD is a very effective and cost effective solution.

 

It has it's places in bulky laptops not in thin ones.

It might be cost effective, but it's neither space nor weight effective. It's performance bottlenecks modern laptops.

See these laptops

XPS 15
Macbook
Razer blade
MSI GS series
Aero 15

These are the premium laptops leading the market. No one gives a crab about the 2.5' slot. With sata SSD approaching 100$ for 512GB models. HDD are becoming less relevant.

If we put a model for 1529$ with 1 TB HDD + 256 GB SSD and a 55Whr battery against a 1700$ laptop with 512GB SSD and a 94Whr battery that is also 0.25lb lighter(2.5' HDD weight). Do you really think the majority will choose the former ?

@Meaker@Sager

Edit: the GL504 is 1.02' not 0.74'
https://www.ultrabookreview.com/20507-asus-rog-strix-gl504-series/
This site had the wrong deminsion which makes the GL504 not so special after all

 

Plus Asus advertise the bare chassis weight minus things like drives and memory.

But a lot of people do care about storage flexibility, an SSD for the OS and top games and a HDD for the larger games or backup storage. Maybe not in the enthusiast space but for those who could have either a gtx 1050ti and a 500gb SSD or a GTX 1060 and a 256gb SSD + HDD are likely to go for the latter and these models hit a lot of those people.

 

,

I still remember them advertising the GL502VS as a revolutionary 0.9'(they used the 1060 version thickness) thin 1070 laptop while the real thing was 1.2'

 

Not everyone shares your opinion. I find 15" laptops too small for my tastes, esp regarding the panel, and my 3KG 1710 quite portable and functional.

In regards to the 2.5" bay, I prefer options. Why not offer a battery that fits the bay with an optional plug for it on the mobo? I'd like to see laptops support 15mm hdds. (A 4GB Firecuda would be nice) Or 2.5" SSDs get more affordable. Some 2TB SSD's have hit the $250 mark.

 

I'm not arguing for 17.3 laptops to seize to exist. I am arguing that a 17 inch laptop doesn't satisfy people like me who are looking for a 15.6' gtx 1070 laptop that is slightly portable.

The 2.5' bay will inevitably die in laptops like optical dvd readers. It's simply speaking : trash. It's slow, takes alot of valuable space and weights alot more than an m2 ssd. 15mm 2.5' drives aren't going to happen.

2.5' bay as a whole is going to die and the M2 slot is going to replace it in laptops

Clevo has neither the will nor the R&D capability to create something like you proposed. They can't create a portable 180w power adapter for crying out loud.

Major 15 inch laptop have already ditched it. XPS, Macbook,Razer all ditched it and are getting excellent battery and lighter bodies.

A top of the line sata m2 SSD(MX500) now costs 110$ for a 512gb model with 5yr warrenty, down from 145$ at the start of the year. By 2019 it will properly be below 100$.

RB ditching the 2.5' slot allowed razer to include an 80Whr battery(instead of 51/55)and a massive vapour champer cooler that is allowing the 1070MQ to overclock to stock 1070 levels with stock thermal paste. So it's damn worth it

 

The VC in the RB15 is on the CPU side, not GPU side. And after disabling BD PROCHOT it still gets throttled by VRMs to 45W.

 

The cooling system is effective though or this wouldn't happen

 

Because the editor supported the existing 1070's (of the time).
Only a small number of 1070 and 1080 cards were supported. (and a few desktop cards as well).
And no one cares about the max Q because the power users (the ones who were buying desktop replacements, e.g. Clevos and MSI's) did NOT buy any with Max Q (none of the DTR's had max Q's in them). Simple logic. Only high end users will want to mod, and they chose 1070's because they were significantly cheaper than 1080 systems, while still offering alot of power (and the MSI 1070 is very underspecc'd--it was originally designed for 150W actually, just like the desktop cards).

The people who bought laptops with max Qs bought them because they either were (ignorant about cancer firmwares and throttling), or just wanted something light and easy to carry around. No one is going to buy a MQ to mod it.

P.S. MSI makes both the MSI and Clevo 1070's.
MSI 1070 can handle 200W; VRM's have been tested (someone found the texas instruments part number). You can actually put 230W through it (provided your EC isn't cancer locked and you upgrade the PSU) but that's on you if the magic smoke comes out.

Yes you can mod any pascal or even Titan V card, if you know enough about debugging and programming, but you have to do it manually, and that's going to be self-taught).
Only two or three users on this forum knows how to TDP mod their own Pascal cards from scratch.

 

What about Vbios flashing. The 1070MQ in razer is performing like a champ while the one in the sager is gimped see

Razer


Sager

 

Look were we become at 2018. A Gtx 1070 at 920mhz with 6Gbps memory(lower than 1060MQ performance)

P955ER (same result from XMG and eurocom)

 

Hey mate, haven't had a chance to run 3dMark yet but pull around 16k with this OC, this is Assassins creed Origins on max settings for about 25 mins with a +144 mhz OC core and +260mhz mem clcok and just the stock curve etc (7700HQ is -120mV if that is useful too)... Also Cooling just on Auto, room temp at about 25ish. specs in sig, only difference is this is a 180W PSU i was supplied not 150W... Not sure if the next gen CPU is causing power supply issues as well? I've noticed if i run Fur mark, i.e. consistent 100% GPU load it'll generally run at about 1100-1250 but i've read that nVidia drivers automatically give less mhz in this situ as it's not realistic?

 

The other p950 are throttling to 700mhz in furmark and 920mhz in witcher 3(the memory is throttling too) something is causing the issue. Just because you don't have the issue doesn't mean the issue doesn't exist. If it's indeed the PSU than screw the cheapskates at clevo.