Clevo Overclocker's Lounge

Additional information regarding the recent CCleaner APT security incident
https://blog.avast.com/additional-information-regarding-the-recent-ccleaner-apt-security-incident

"New analysis from the Avast Threat Labs

We would like to update our customers and the general public on the latest findings regarding the investigation of the recent CCleaner security incident. As published in our previous blog posts (here and here), analysis of the CnC server showed that the incident was in fact an Advanced Persistent Threat (APT) attack, targeting specific high-tech and telecommunications companies. That is, despite the fact that CCleaner is a consumer product, the purpose of the attack was not to attack consumers and their data; instead, the CCleaner customers were used to gain access to corporate networks of select large enterprises.

Today, we are going to disclose new facts about the incident that we received since the last public update."

 

It's good they are being open about it but it should never have happened regardless.

 

Today I hit 5ghz mark, I was only playing around due to the fact I am trying to keep the temps as low as I can. But I was rather happy none the less. I didn't run it for long but my max temp hit 86 at load. What is the highest clock you guys have reached and around what temp and volts were you hitting?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

I'm sure some clueless fool says that about every security hole found and abused by unscrupulous people.

"It should have never happened."

While it's true, it's not a helpful comment. It doesn't show any compassion for the people taken advantage of, nor does it affix the blame where it should be, on the criminal's and their actions, not the victim's.

It's called victim blaming, or shaming, depending on the crime.

Such a useless and baseless comment doesn't help anyone, but I guess it makes you feel important. Like you can dis someone you don't know for something you know nothing about, and think you can get away with it.

You are as bad as the hackers, taking advantage of the defenseless making them a victim all over again.

Shame on you.

 

oops!

 

We aren't talking about the same things. We are talking about similar things, logically - in the most simplistic terms.

It's easy to try to map what you know on top of situations you don't know, but usually that results in misconceptions and fallacies of conclusion, and foolish results.

My point is unless you are privy to the actual exploits found to have been used, and know for a fact that the exploits could have been prevented or defended against - known issues - or if the exploits were completely unknown without any established defense, you can't comment definitively on a given situation.

Condemning a company full of hard working people, with families and responsibilities for which they depend on the success of their work in their company, for something you know nothing about, is just as much a violation against those people as the hackers committed - taking away the companies credibility and stealing their good will.

The criminals are the ones that are to blame for the damages done.

As with physical defenses there are ways through them, it's the scale of defense that limits the access through them. If a criminal gains enough force or advantage through those defenses, there isn't anything that is going to stop them.

That's why society has so much invested in remediation, for physical offenses and starting to have for cyber offenses.

We need to be supportive of those that are compromised, to watch them get back in a situation where they can be productive and delivering product to us, rather than attempt to ruin them with criticisms.

 

Yes, I realized shortly after posting (but not quickly enough to delete it before it was read by others), that I had confused the 2 things ... I had Equifax on the brain, and just went there (it's late here, and there was some beer involved). In general, I agree that we shouldn't talk about things we know nothing about ... but, if we did that, there'd be very little conversation in this world ... which would probably be a good thing, but ever so boring.

 

Hey, it's cool, we all have opinions on things, and through sharing those opinions we are really trying to learn more, so I don't condemn anyone for "going there", as it provides a discussion point to illuminate.

There are certainly situations where a hacker will stumble across a simple newbie "mistake", probably thinking "boy are they asking for it", like leaving default passwords on an internet accessible server, application, database, network device, etc.

But only a criminal, or self-styled hacker, would try those "doors" to see if they are open.

In the physical world, most people will walk right by an open door of a car, or house and the only thought they have is "hey, maybe I should close the door for them, in case a criminal strolls by and see's a situation that they can take advantage of...", and in the physical world everyone can see that open door.

The difference in the cyber world is, it's pretty unusual to "see" those open doors without doing something actively to find them.

Again, the criminal's actions are to blame for the incursion. They are the ones that took the active steps to gain access. They only have to find 1 or two "mistakes", while the defenders need to cover thousands of known potential holes, on thousands of servers, in perhaps hundreds of locations.

And, then there are the completely unknown or as yet unthought of holes where hackers that don't publish their work have the advantage.

That's why so many people, government agencies, and companies were angry with the NSA / CIA / etc for holding on to exploits for which there is no awareness or defense.

 

Never actually tried going above 5GHz on this end actually. I'm sure I could, I just am not enough of an OCer to push it. Rather it be nice, stable and cool for 24/7 operation.

 

I agree, I'm not either but I wanted to play around and see, I didn't push it above 5GHz nor would I want to either. I'm actually going to do the opposite and probably down clock it a bit due to it just being a gaming machine, I'll be in Afghanistan for the next year and no game really needs anything that high right now anyways.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

Be prepared for new screw up from Futuremark... 3DMark Time Spy Extreme to be released. Next on the list will be Windoze 10 Fall Creators Update who will screw up 3DMark Suite further Nice times coming.

 

Wow, need some more track to take that runaway train down?

They are a firm that is involved in cleaning and security, am I supposed to feel sorry for Equifax too who leaked 140 million people's accounts data too?

Hopefully they learn from their mistakes and tighten their security. This is their job, their responsibility, not some innocent person walking down the street.

And yes I hope the hackers get sent to jail too.

 

Yeah I'm kinda lost if he was talking about you or that company lol. I don't see how your comment is victim blaming or anything like that.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

The first part of the response was about @Meaker@Sager 's casual condemnation of a company because he thinks "it should never have happened regardless."

He has no clue as to if that is true or not, no facts to back it up, and give the companies involved unwarranted culpability in a crime they were a victim to, and not the perpetrator.

The rest was trying to help illuminate the issue and why it's not fair to condemn a whole company of hard working people for the mistake(s) of one or a few.

It also should go without saying that this is an epidemic problem, unknown hacks leaving us all wide open to abuses by criminals.

It doesn't take much to kill the confidence in a company by casual thoughtless remarks, especially by someone that is supposed to know better, and is in a position of "authority" about other unrelated subjects that might give unwarranted weight to those thoughtless condemnations.

@Meaker@Sager - how many security incursions such as happened with ccleaner are you professionally involved in root cause analysis and remediation? From your comments it sounds like you have absolutely zero experience.

 

Back on the topic of overclocking, here's are some new notebook #1 benchmark scores for 3DMark 11 and Sky Diver...

https://www.3dmark.com/3dm11/12408391


https://www.3dmark.com/sd/4833570


And, just for giggles...


@Prema magic FTW...

 

Yeah, that should be really interesting. They should focus on fixing the buggy pile of dung they already have before they entertain the idea of adding a new feature to 3DMark.

 

Sounds like what I have to say to just about every AAA game dev team...

 

Yup, we're living in some troubled times. Incompetence and lackluster performance are status quo. We should expect nothing less than excellence, but it is rare to see examples of anything other than incompetence. Making mistakes is part of being human. Ignoring them rather than fixing them, or pretending they do not exist, is a hallmark trait of losers.

 

Looks like I can't stay away from Clevo....

 

I don't think any of us are here because we particularly "like" Clevo, but rather there's kind of only one option.

Now if they'd get their cooling and stock sBIOSes in order...

And their software.

And their cooling.

And their website.

And their cooling.

And their cooling.

And their cooling.

And their choice in screens.

And their cooling.

 

Did I mention they need to get their cooling in order?

 

Why do you think it will instantly be a screw up?

 

I missed having a big beast to OC. l was always interested in getting the P870DM3 again after I heard the KM wasn't as good and when a golden opportunity came around, I pounced on it. Winter is coming (not a reference to Game of Thrones) and I don't see Clevo releasing a refresh anytime soon. Now this one has Prema's magic already but nothing like what you guys may or may not have. I am still going to push it as far as I can. With my X299, X399 DT's and the DTR's, I am preparing for a lovely OC'ed winter.

 

Without Prema there aren't any enthusiast notebooks tbh

Sent from my OnePlus 1 using a coconut

 

Awesome! Congrats, bro.

Amen to that! Without @Prema there is absolutely no laptop available anywhere now that is worth a damn. Doesn't matter what the specs are, everything with stock firmware is a sucky, throttling, crippled, worthless pile of crap. And, the scumbags that build them are doing things to make his job of fixing their broken trash harder and harder every year.

 

AW has the only working BIOS on the market for stock I think. But it's still not near a Prema modded system, still locked down, and still iffy with each update. Plus spending so much on a soldered notebook is not in my taste.

But if things keep up, they're going to be the best choice in functionality terms if a Prema modded unit is unavailable

Sent from my OnePlus 1 using a coconut

 

I seldom say never, but on this I will. I will never buy another Alienware product. Period. They intentionally cripple everything they make, including their desktops. Superior build quality will never be enough to make their stuff not be rubbish. Poop will always be poop regardless of what shade of brown it is and Alienware will never again be viewed as an acceptable option to me, even as a last resort. They ceased to exist to me in 2012. There is no room left for stupid in my life, LOL.

 

I mean, I didn't say no... but look at stock machines all over.

Alienware is the only one that overclocks, doesn't overheat, has worldwide warranty by default, and also doesn't look like it's from a steampunk future year.

Not that I'm saying YOU should buy one. But I *AM* saying that this is what it's come to, if Prema mods don't exist.

MSI throttles and sucks from the battery. Svet or Prema is necessary, and prema only does ONE BIOS for ONE model and it's not even an officially supported model. HP, Acer, Lenovo, Razer, etc can be ignored. ASUS has just about one performing model, the G701VI, and it's ASUS-lockdown for it too. The only thing really going for it is the 220W default GPU TDP (which I seriously wish Clevo had). And let's not get into Clevo's stock firmware.

If you don't have Prema mod, the best thing function-wise is AW, and that just scares me.

 

Well, it should scare you. I am glad that it does. It would scare anyone that has any sense about them. Most of what you said is why I am relatively certain that I am officially done with notebooks in the future. And, I totally agree with you with respect to Clevo being a good option only because of Brother @Prema. Without him Clevo is an undesirable good-for-nothing brand with nice specs packaged with buggered up firmware. Because of him they are the only good option, but only one model they offer is acceptable. Stop and think about that. It's beyond pathetic.

Alienware being the least of all evils and the Bastard King among all of the BGA turdbooks only validates how truly hopeless and grim the situation has become. It is absolutely unacceptable. It doesn't make them "good" to be the least horrible option. That being said, I haven't seen an Alienware yet that outperforms a P870 with Clevo's stock cancerware. And, Alienware notebooks do overheat... real bad, unless the end user takes matters into their own hands. That's on par with status quo for the industry. The only redeeming aspect is that their thermal issues can be fixed with effort and expense, but they ship messed up and broken. Sounds an awful lot like a Clevo to me.

Alienware brass have no problem purging themselves and saying stupid things like it's normal and fine to run 100°C and they expect idiots to believe them. Anyone that thinks they "need" a gaming turdbook badly enough to settle for such lame options needs to re-evaluate the situation, figure out their priorities and decide if they are willing to drink the Kool-Aid and take the "mark of the beast" filth just so they can have something portable to play games on. To me that is just a retarded option that isn't acceptable.

I do not believe anyone actually "needs" a gaming notebook badly enough to settle for this feces. I am not able to comprehend the concept of "wanting" one bad enough to settle for such rubbish. These are my opinions. Not everyone agrees with them, but I respect their right to think whatever they wish and throw another log on the fire. The gates to turdbook hell are wide enough to accommodate all comers. Sadly, they are part of the problem and the reason the rest of us have absolutely nothing to look forward to in the land of notebooks. The whole situation really blows.

 

I have, @iunlock goes through tons of them for repaste jobs and he always checks them out of the box. At least on the CPU side of things, he has said 4.6GHz no-throttle out the box without approaching 100c is fairly common with the recent Kaby lake models, if I remember correctly. If I remember incorrectly, he can correct me right here. On the other hand Clevo firmware kills turbo on both 6700K/7700K models when the GPU is stressed and it goes further when you try overclocking, from what I remember? Except for that initial "bugged" BIOS/EC revision near launch. If the AW can OC further than a stock, nobody-knows-what-they're-buying-hot-off-the-press-from-Sager/AVADirect/OriginPC/Scan UK/XMG/etc unit does (on the CPU side, anyway, considering single GPU) then the GPU change is mostly negligible with the 180W GPU limit firmware. This is just my understanding of it. Of course once you go into SLI territory, any SLI notebook will trounce a single GPU notebook in benchmarking, so I'm having to run an apples-to-apples here (plus most users will not buy SLI, and we do recommend this over the P775DM3 for single GPU). Ask @Scerate about all the problems he had getting his unit to stop throttling the CPU randomly too, I believe he had issues.

As for the heat, well I just posted about it above. Though yes, they DO need quite a bit of work on them, I'm not disputing that. It doesn't require a warranty-voiding delid, though unlike a stock clevo unit does.

Please, I've seen them say 110c is fine before it's considered "overheating". I know some folks who needs a powerful notebook for work purposes (streamers are one group, for when they travel to conventions or even just different locations for certain purposes, though they're a small number). I always change my judgements with how companies change. Right this minute, if you buy a random Sager LGA single-GPU model off Amazon or a random AW Kaby Lake unit (specifically Kaby Lake) off amazon, the latter is likely to perform better.

I'm not praising AW for this, but rather just using it to paint the picture of how bad Clevo is without Prema mods.

 

I have no beef with you bro, and you're generally spot on in your thought processes. I almost always agree with you, including right now. And, I know you are not praising them. The situation is really horrible any direction you look and I will most likely end up joining the ranks of the worst notebook hating trolls at places like Overclock.net because of how lousy the situation is becoming. I am not going to give Alienware or any other turdbook peddler credit for anything... ever. They do not deserve any credit for anything except taking a lead role in ruining things. As the (former) industry leader in high performance notebooks they had an obligation to do the right thing and they blew it royally. They deserve more vitriol than any of their competitors because they are sell-out losers. They have strayed so far from the right path that even their desktops are worthless crippled filth overflowing with proprietary garbage and emasculated features in a fancy wrapper.

Having @Prema to fix our Clevo problems is a huge blessing. Because he does, and only because he does, they are the best. The point is that I am never going to accept the lesser and welcome others to join me in standing against this filth. I do not have a business need for portable gaming, so there is no reason to entertain the ideal of stooping to that level. Those that do have a legit business need will just have to settle for whatever. Some are not sharp enough to know any different anyhow. It's just really sad how many people that do not have a real need are willing to settle. As I have said many times before, we will all have what the lowest common denominators are willing to tolerate. If Prema ever retires, I think Clevo will end up going out of business if they don't get their act together and figure out how to not ruin their stuff with cancerware. Real performance notebook enthusiasts are not going to put up with that crap.

Otherwise, I don't care what manner of horribleness happens to the turdbooks because it is not going to affect me. There will be no accommodation for compromises or concessions. I will not stoop to that level and I'm not going to own one unless the cost is under $500 and used in a scenario that does not require anything more than average consumer performance... for stuff like running Micro$lop Office, email and web browsing.

 

Time Spy Extreme: How Does Hardware Stand Up To The New 4K DX12 Tests?

I'm sure people in Nvidia HQ enjoy the graphics scores (Can we expect that new drivers will perform better in 3DM Suite benchmarks?)

*We will also be looking at early performance on today’s drivers.*


"While we would have liked to deliver more results with even more CPU cores, these are the most we have on hand at the time. Interesting to see say the least. The liquid cooled variant of the Radeon RX Vega 64 sure put out a bit more impressive numbers than anticipated. It’ll be interesting to see if any *new drivers* come along before the public release that may change the balance now. We hope to bring more coverage and a full lineup of results from the RX 460 to the GTX 1080ti when the public release hits on October 11."

Everything got worse after Futuremark pushed out 3DMARK v2.1.2852 (July 15th, 2016) with the new major update Time Spy. See Gradual Degradation of 3DMark Fire Strike Produces Unreliable Result. Also a few 3DM Suite versions were withdrawn from the download page the same day as they were released. This without being pointed out in the version history time stamp.

Spoiler: Futuremark 3DMark+Time Spy Version History

v2.3.3732 (June 14th, 2017)
This is a minor update. Benchmark scores are not affected.

Fixed

• Various minor bug fixes to improve compatibility and stability.
• Fixed an issue with the shader cache that could, in rare cases, cause a crash.

v2.3.3693 (April 12th, 2017)
This update fixes an issue that affected the scores in the API Overhead feature test with DirectX 11 in the earlier 3DMark versions. In some cases, the issue led to more constant buffers to be updated than the actual geometries drawn, causing some systems to get lower scores in the DirectX 11 test.

The scores from the API Overhead feature test with DirectX 11 from 3DMark v2.3.3693 are not comparable with scores from the same test in the earlier 3DMark versions. The benchmark scores for the API Overhead feature test with Vulkan and DirectX 12 are not affected.

This update also fixes the Time Spy workload looping in Custom runs.

v2.3.3682 (April 6th, 2017)

• Fixed an issue that could cause the API Overhead feature test to fail at the end of the DirectX 12 test on some systems.

v2.3.3663 (March 23rd, 2017)
This is a major update that adds Vulkan support to the API Overhead feature test. Benchmark scores are unaffected with the exception of API Overhead feature test, which now produces scores for Vulkan instead of Mantle.

New

• Added Vulkan support to the API Overhead feature test. Use the API Overhead feature test to compare Vulkan, DirectX 12, and DirectX 11 API performance on your PC. The Vulkan test requires compatible video drivers with Vulkan support. Check with your GPU vendor for Vulkan driver support if your hardware is unable to run the test. Note that the Vulkan test replaces the Mantle test found in previous versions of 3DMark.

Improved

• SystemInfo scan time greatly improved on X99 systems.

Fixed

• Fixed an issue that could cause the API Overhead feature test to fail to show a score at the end of an otherwise normal run on some systems.
• Fixed Time Spy test to properly recover from a corrupted shader cache - if runtime compiled shaders are found to be corrupted, they are deleted and recompiled. Uninstallation also now completely removes the shader cache folder.
• Fixed a scaling issue that could cause parts of the UI to end up outside the display area on 1080p monitors with 150% DPI scaling. UI will now scale appropriately even on high DPI scaling settings.

v2.2.3509 (December 15th, 2016)
This update fixes a GUI issue that resulted in marginally lower than expected scores when starting a test from the Benchmark Details screen in 3DMark versions 2.1.2852 and later. Benchmark runs started from the Home screen or the Command Line were not affected. It is normal for 3DMark scores to vary by up to 3% between runs since there are factors in a modern, multitasking operating system that cannot be completely controlled. With this update, overall scores are expected to increase by up to 0.3%. Scores from the Physics and CPU parts of benchmark tests may improve by up to 2.5%. Scores from this version of 3DMark are consistent with results from previous versions that did not have the GUI issue. Compatibility

• Added a two-minute timeout to the SystemInfo scan to prevent it from stalling for long periods on some specific systems.

v2.2.3491 (December 12th, 2016)
This is a minor update. Benchmark scores are not affected. Fixed

• Fixed an issue with the output resolution setting on the Options screen.

v2.2.3488 (December 9th, 2016)
This is a minor update. Benchmark scores are not affected. Fixed

• Fixed a SystemInfo timing issue that most commonly affected systems with the X99 chipset. 3DMark now waits for the SystemInfo scan to finish before starting the test.
• Fixed a rare issue that could cause the UI to open on an empty white window.

v2.1.2973 (August 22nd, 2016)
This is a minor update to fix problems reported by some users. Benchmark scores are not affected with one exception - see the section about Fire Strike Custom runs below for details. Improved

• SystemInfo module updated to 4.48 for improved compatibility with the latest hardware.
• The video RAM check that warns if your system may not be able to run a test now accepts extra main RAM beyond the minimum requirement as VRAM for integrated graphics.
• We've added a DETAILS button to the panel for the Recommended test on the Benchmarks screen to make it easier to find more information and the settings for the test. This is also where you find the option to enable or disable the demo for each test.

Fixed Fire Strike Custom run settings Unfortunately, the previous version of 3DMark used an incorrect setting for Fire Strike Custom runs that resulted in slightly lower than expected scores. Fire Strike Custom run results from 3DMark v2.1.2852 should not be compared with this latest version nor with any other version of 3DMark. The standard Fire Strike benchmark run was not affected, nor were Fire Strike Extreme and Fire Strike Ultra.

• Restored the control for volumetric illumination sample count setting on the Fire Strike Custom run screen, which was missing in the previous version.
• Fixed the default value for volumetric illumination sample count for Fire Strike Custom runs. In 3DMark v2.1.2852, Fire Strike Custom run used an incorrect default setting of 1.5. This has been reverted to 1.0, which is the correct value for the test.

Other fixes

• Fixed an issue that could prevent the in-app update from working properly.
• Fixed an issue that prevented Sky Diver from starting on 32-bit Windows.
• Fixed an issue that caused Time Spy to crash when scaling mode was set to Stretched.
• Fixed an issue that could cause result parsing to fail on complex systems with lots of devices due to the unusually large data set generated by the SystemInfo scan.
• Fixed an issue that caused the installation to fail if the unzipped installer content resided in a path that included a folder name with a space.

Known Issues

• Time Spy fails to run on multi-GPU systems with Windows 10 build 10240, but this is not the fault of the benchmark. You must upgrade Windows 10 to build 10586 ("November Update") or later to enable multi-GPU configurations to work.
• Installing the 3DMark app and the DLC test data to the same folder is not a supported configuration. The latest version will prevent you from installing both to the same folder. If you currently have 3DMark and the DLC test data installed to the same custom folder you will need to uninstall 3DMark then reinstall the latest version using the full installer.

v2.1.2852 (July 15th, 2016)
This major update adds Time Spy, a new DirectX 12 benchmark test. With its pure DirectX 12 engine, which supports new API features like asynchronous compute, explicit linked multi-adapter, and multi-threading, 3DMark Time Spy is the ideal benchmark for testing the DirectX 12 performance of the latest graphics cards.

New Added Time Spy Stress Test - a new dedicated Stress Test for high-performing PCs running on Windows 10. Time Spy Stress Test is not available in 3DMark Basic Edition or 3DMark Time Spy upgrade in Steam. Fixed Fixed an issue that could cause all Stress Test runs to end with 0% score.
Fixed an issue that could prevent self-update from working (standalone version only). If you are running 3DMark 2.0.2724 or 2.0.2809 Advanced Edition, you need to download and install the full 2.1 installer to update.

Fixed? Not in Hell!! Far from it. If one or two persons re-paste, put LM and bend the TRIPOD on 50-100 or 200 AWBooks, this is only a small drop in the ocean vs. how many crippled units there is out there. I have received some PM from doomed Awbooks owners with Tripod mess (some do not even post their massive overheating problems in the forum). It's sad reading. And yeah, the owners of the flawed Aw Dellbooks should be happy that Dell has worldwide warranty by default. But damn you... If you have +3 thumbs or live in India or other similar places with *very known good* Dell tech suppport. You are screwed... Or better say doomed.

 

At the end of the day, relying on one person to make a laptop so great (thank you @Prema) is an all in approach to a gamble that is at a much higher stake than having an open mind to some of the current bga offerings that can hold their own.

I completely understand the mindset of disagreeing with the direction that the industry is going with bga in high performance / true gaming laptops. I do not condone bga in the upper leagues, however, there is a time and a place for portable machines.

The all or nothing mindset in completely giving up laptops is a bit extreme nonetheless. I am not judging anyone's decision in doing so, but the reality is for those that do will either:

a.) be stuck with old tech or

b.) miss out completely on portability due to ones strong belief. That is fine and everyone has the right to decide for themselves.

As I've joked before, good luck with the custom rolling suit case desktop build with chrome wheels and handles. (This is a joke of course and most would admit that the whole thought process of resorting to such extremes of giving up completely on laptops is silly for anyone that needs portable power.)

The fact is, for those that bash bga are taking it to extremes that is not relevant to the facts. At this point it feels like beating a dead horse, but come on people... there is nothing an upper end bga system like AW/MSI/ASUS can't do that that a desktop/dtr can do, except achieving meaningless bench numbers. But even at that, the numbers are not that far apart to even be bragging about it. This isn't the Maxwell era anymore people.

Let's get real here folks. Face it..

The fact is, the bga haters are tickled at the fact of reality. Since Pascal and Skylake/Kaby Lake, the gap is no longer as wide as it once before. This is a hard pill to swallow for all the haters and they know it...

The other reality is, when it comes to gaming and other hard core tasks, there is nothing a desktop/dtr can do that a high end bga system can not. Reality check.

Again, this is a hard pill for people to swallow.

The other other thing that gets me is that most people do not have any flight time with any of the machines they speak of that they are bashing....

This is why I chuckle when I see such false accusations toward a bga machine like AW...it's just childish...

The current 7820HK's and GTX 1080's can hold their own and this without the need of any special custom bios like the Clevo's need to even survive.

As technology advances, the gap will be closed in even more and soon it will be at a point where there will be nothing left to whine about.

Can't we just all get along?

Fact: The haters make up a percentage that is almost non existent, therefore, all the time and energy spent in a lost cause is only taking a toll on the individual....as it makes ZERO impact on the reality and makes ZERO difference on anything due to the way that the message is being portrayed.

If we want a change, we need to construct the delivery differently or all of this just becomes wasted oxygen.

Now let me get back to my bga machine that games perfectly fine, renders/encodes perfectly fine and is built well where I am not embarrassed to to use it on the plane or anywhere that I am publicly.

Game on....

.

 

People relying on @Prema to fix their Clevo firmware problems is not much different than relying on @iunlock to fix their Alienware defects. The main difference is the former requires more knowledge and skill than the latter. But, the number of technically challenged people that are terrified at the thought of removing the bottom cover of their notebook is laughable and sad, so the end result is similar. Nothing diminishes the value that either of you bring, and the talent is priceless; but, the fact that such knowledge and talent is required for someone to experience proper functionality with an expensive new product that is broken out of the box is totally inexcusable.

Accepting this garbage on the basis that resistance is futile makes a person part of the problem rather than part of the solution. Making room for compromise means the enemy wins and we all end up losing. This is a perfect example of why stupidity en masse is lethally dangerous. Alienware should be ashamed of what they sell, and that applies to their compromised desktop trash as well. Their incompetence and treachery is not limited to their turdbooks. Diarrhea is liquid and spoils everything it comes into contact with. They had the position, power and financial strength to steer the industry in the right direction, but these gutless wonders made a conscious decision to be the tail rather than the head. It all boils down to feckless leadership. They do not deserve any support or acknowledgement for being spineless turdbook or emasculated desktop peddlers.

It grieves me greatly to see smart people embrace their sins and dismiss them based on a perception of decline being inevitable. Understanding the opportunity for good men to make a difference in the direction the industry is headed has passed, the only acceptable option left is to abandon so-called high performance notebooks, build desktops and only buy extra cheap turdbooks, and encourage others to do the same. It might be too late to fix stupid, but it's not too late to hurt them financially. Just doing what I can. I hope more will join me so we can wipe them out, or at least cause measurable financial harm to the industry. We need to use our malice constructively, and money is clearly the only thing that matters to Dell. They no longer operate based on guiding principles that include strong core values or integrity. Yeah, I know, those are old school values that are no longer popular.

 

Ditch the desktop: Clevo debuts the world's first gaming notebooks powered by Intel 'Coffee Lake-S' 95W CPUs

Cinebench R15

In Cinebench R15, we see impressive scores over the entire CFL-S lineup. The Cinebench R15 Multi scores sent by Clevo are higher (1396) than the results posted on earlier Videocardz (1230).

 

As good as this sounds. Im not buying another high end Clevo, mainly because of the godawful QC.

 

I want see results first.
Clevo themselves has sent out the bench results and the model tested... Is NDA still in work? If not... Could anyone tell us a little more about the Cpu cooling for Coffee in P870TM1?

 

We are almost the same. I changed one word. Selling broken turdbooks is just as much a sin and a crime as selling broken monsterbooks. Trash is trash no matter what name is plastered on the chassis. One is disposable (BGA) and the other is serviceable (LGA) but nobody deserves to get broken trash for their money. It is time for the nonsense to end once and for all. If high performance notebooks are never going to be built right, it's time for them all to go away forever.

 

Does one really need to buy a whole brand new system for two extra cores? Right now, the 7700K still wins out in gaming (within points of the 8700K) and the only reason to buy the new TM1 is for productivity. I want to see the 8 core CL which we all know will be coming in the second half of 2018.

EDIT: I've been out of HE-DTR's. They don't give me the same rush as an open loop equipped DT does and of course, we just got to 6/8 cores in NB versus the many cores of DT. I am going to have fun with my 870DM3 but it is second to my addiction to DT's.

 

Not if they have as much good sense as money. I agree with you completely... unless you are going to at least double the core/thread count spending money on a hexacore upgrade is kind of a waste. That used to not be the case, back when hexacore and octacore was the most anyone could have. The gap is a whole lot wider now between consumer quad core and HEDT, and the 2 extra cores is not going to be a meaningful enough bump to justify the cost if you already have a 6700K or 7700K. We also have to bear in mind that 7700K is exceptional as far as quad core performance is concerned. It really is about the most wicked consumer-level CPU that has ever been made.

 

To be fair modding a bios and repasting a system are not similar at all. One is very heavy on the extreme end of the software, while repasting is not so heavy on the hardware end.

In comparison, most people can repaste their systems just fine, while only 1-2 people can do bios related mods. Big difference.

The issue with Clevo's poor QC and it being mandatory to have a bios mod to unlock its potential that is relied on ONE person, is far greater than one being able to repaste the system themselves.

If you take the number of people who can mod a bios vs those who can repaste a system, that is when we really start to see the significance on how reliant the Clevo's are vs repasting a system.

Millions of more people can repaste. - Only one person can work the bios magic.

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While your statement in the second paragraph holds true for the majority, it does not hold true for those in the boat of relativity.

I am not one with the, "my way or the highway mentality." It doesn't need to be like that. Just because I use what I use does not mean that I agree with every aspect of the machine.

Simply put, the moment a system dips below the threshold of being just outright useless, with it not being able provide the functions that I need for my work and gaming, is the moment that system gets delisted from my list.

So far, systems like the AW 17R4 is able to provide all the functions that I need it to do just fine, while having a build quality that trumps anything there is out there on the market, especially Clevo's which are rubbish compared to the build of even most of the bga systems in the under $1000 category. It's just the truth.

Another fact that needs to be considered is that, unlike Clevo, Dell/AW are actually working with the community and taking notes on the things that we are suggesting. This is the side that the general public on the other side of the camp never sees. From the moment that I published the findings of the heat sink issue of the AW's, it took less than 1.5 months before we started to see changes in the use of real thermal paste on the CPU vs the stamp. It was too late in the game to release a whole new HS design, so the next best thing in hopes to address the issue was executed, rather than having the issue abandoned. Nothing is perfect, but the point here is that there was action rather than silence.

- The question is, where is Clevo in any of the changes?

In my opinion, the all or nothing approach is what is dangerous and that can also be viewed by those with a level head as something being an unpractical resistance that makes a person a part of the problem, rather than a part of the solution.

Here's why...

By simply having a few people not buy any laptops is not going to make any changes. That is no different than burying our heads in the sand and hoping for the best.

If we want real change, we need to construct the delivery in a way that will allow the message the be heard. Walking away from a battle is a lost cause and the act of just dropping everything is no different than surrendering to the enemy, which is why they will win every time from the voluntarily actions of the opponent.

We also have to consider the reality and the unfortunate direction of the industry of the way it has been moving toward its form.

Expecting a group of a few (all or nothing camp) to go against the mega army (industry) with the approach of simply walking away, will not have any effect on the direction of the movement itself.

The more practical way is to find a means to communicate with the ones that can actually help initiate a change and to take advantage of that opportunity to help them understand what the community really wants. - This is the opportunity we have with AW/Dell right now, while I don't know of another company out there that even cares to listen to what we have to say.

This doesn't mean that we're going to see a lga machine next year lol, lets be real. However, since we're talking about extremes here, on a percentage scale, what is greater. The all or nothing approach or the opportunity to have a company that is willing to listen and work with the community? Where would the changes come from, if any? Silence or action?

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We are not dismissing the way that the industry is going by simply using a system. The other way to look at it is that we need to be able to drive the car to even find out what is wrong with it in terms of its design and function, as in real tangible issues that actually affect the function.

The bga aspect of a system is a design, but that does not translate to something being wrong with the function. Big difference.

-

To be clear, I find a lot of the decisions made by these companies completely inexcusable and heck I've demonstrated this by calling these issues out.

The truth is, every company has issues, just some greater than the other in areas that really matter in terms of hindering the use of the actual machine both practically and functionally.

When was the last time you've seen a company in the dirty world of business often ran by share holders where, "...they operated based on guiding principles that include strong core values or integrity?"

There are politics in every company and 99.9% of the companies will flow in the direction of where the wind blows the promissory notes. Sad but true.

Even if one resorted to desktops, think of the companies such as NVIDIA etc... that's a whole another issue in itself with dirty politics within...

It is unfortunate that things are what they are in this World and industry, but making the best of what we have to work with, while keeping things within reason is the only sure way of survival.

If people want to jump off the ship on this journey, then that's their decision, but the inconvenience factor in itself is one that most people will not opt for in swimming in the vast ocean yourself, leaving the jumper with even more uncertainties/issues than on the moving vessel they were just on.

In a lot of ways this is a catch 22. It's all about weighing the options and going with what works for you.

All in all, one thing is certain in that there will always be those on both sides of the spectrum and each with their own reasons....

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I was waiting for someone to mention the difference in complexity between a BIOS mod and fixing a thermal management problem. The point is not the complexity. It is the fact that all of the OEMs are selling broken trash. If the BIOS mod is done, flashing that is easier than a repaste. And, yes, while many--anyone of ordinary intelligency and skill--can repaste, far too many are intimidated to the point of being frozen in fear. Not to mention those that are intimidated by the Nazi OEMs that put decals on the outside of the chassis that mislead them into believing that performing normal maintenance will void their warranty. I am talking about an entire generation of dishonest, incompetent technology providers that make no apologies for the the sale of their broken garbage and the uninformed suckers that buy that crap, not complexity of fixing their screw-ups.

I have no incentive to want to work with these clowns. Their operation is a joke. They only listen when it is convenient and fits their business model. Otherwise, you're screwed. Yes, Compal provides them with a sturdy chassis. I have no problem admitting the truth and that much is accurate. I cannot say the same for their choice in the new aesthetics, but that is subjective.

2012: We talked; they listened... then used the information against us. They used the info to castrate the last decent laptops they made that were not turdbooks

2017: Everything they make is trash. Some of it can be fixed, some can't. Even their desktops are a mess. They do not know what they are doing. They are like a monkey trying to molest a football.

Mess, after mess, after mess. Look no further than here and you'll be busy all week; and, it will make you want to puke: https://community.dell.com/community/alienware/forum

Want a 7700K to replace the 6700K in your Aurora R5 desktop? Solution: Buy a new Alienware. Unlike virtually all of their competitors in desktop land, they don't support upgrades. Just like their laptops. Disposable, gimped, sub-standard, properitary trash vendor.

Does the new Bios for Aurora R5 support Intel I7 7700K? | Alienware Forum

@Cass-Olé can speak to the mess on the desktop side of their sinking zombie empire. He is in the thick of it.

There is no war left to fight. Most of the soldiers have drunk the Kool-Aid and there is nothing left worth salvaging. Time to leave it all behind. Can't fix stupid and at this point I have no more interest in ever seeing it get fixed. It's too late for redemption. It is not surrender. It's being smart enough to know there is nothing left worth fighting for, cutting your losses and getting the heck out of Dodge.

 

https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/intel_core_i7_8700k_processor_review,2.html

You know, by this point I am sure that it is fair to assume that intel CPUs won't work with the chipsets and above.

This means that now you got a Z370, very well, you either use it with 8700K or you don't nobody cares, but Intel doesn't allow upgrades anymore, so it is the end of general upgradability as well as far as I can see.

Z270 cannot use 8700K, Z170 can theoretically use 7700K with some changes, I am already sick of all of this, they do it on purpose and there is no real reason for this. It is a stress and a big cost for an ethusiast to keep getting high end CPUs, and I think that many will speak with their wallets sooner or later.

 

Your choices are pretty simple:

• Join the Church of the Turdbook Gamer Fanboys and live with whatever cards you are dealt
• Buy the only good Clevo model from a @Prema Partner shop, wait for a firmware fix and tune up the cooling
• Get out while you can, buy something extra cheap for basic mobile computing tasks and build a desktop for the good stuff

 

It is like that for desktops as well now!

You need to upgrade the motherboard pretty often nowadays!!

 

At this point, I am too stressed to do anything about it anymore, I just need a very reliable machine. Brother @Prema did amazing efforts to help me, I'm just sad about Intel's decision to keep forcing us to buy more motherboards and chipsets.

 

Motherboard: $250 to $600 (depending on what you want)
Processor: $350 to $2000 (depending on what you want)
New Laptop: $2500 to $5000 (depending on what you want)

To me that choice is pretty easy. And, it is really not as much about upgrades as being able to service what you have and not wasting money on broken garbage.

That is never going to change. It has always been that way, too. You normally do get at least one CPU upgrade out of a chipset, but there are multiple chipsets and price points. You cannot mix and match any of them. Example: Going from 4790K to 4960X? You need a mobo.

It's no different with AMD. Nobody is upgrading from last gen to Ryzen, or Ryzen to TR without a new mobo each step along the way.

 

Where was Dell when first AW Echo models was out early 2015 and the processors run nice 799MHz ? Same as a hell lots of them do today. + burnt DC cables as the standard. Yeah, build quality can be so much.

Strange Dellienware’s most powerful flagships ain’t on the Top 10 Ranking for Gaming Notebooks

Build quality is more than aluminum and *thin* design. Not that I defend NBC. Not at all.

 

This is true. Only the cheapest AW is on the list, which reflects the mindset of most consumers.

As you said, not defending NBC. We cannot defend them because 9 of 10 on their list are total rubbish, LOL.

 

Unfortunately this can be said for other companies as well. The formula of getting people to upgrade is an industry standard, not a Dell exclusive.

You're also in a different position with all of this vs the majority in terms of seeing this stuff unfold first hand back in the early 2000's. It was a transitional period for sure and there were a lot of things going on back then.

The difference now is that time has past for things to mature a bit. Not everything, but it is undeniable that there have been improvements with certain aspects that make AW the leader in the segment for it to be seen as the mainstream brand for gaming laptops.

While you have given up completely, there are still those who will remain standing to watch the show go on. It's not quite yet dooms day for gaming laptops, but I do understand where you're coming from. Quite frankly I don't see that day coming anytime soon, if ever.

These machines today are more than adequate to handle gaming, work and other power intensive tasks.

One thing is for sure, I'd rather have portability than to drag my suit case filled with my desktop parts. Now that's just silly.

It is not too late. Giving up completely is surrendering. That is throwing in the white towel.

What is smart is being able to see beyond the emotions and to be able to work with the best that we've got and the only company offering an ear and taking action right now is AW/Dell. Heck, if more companies come around and opens their door to listen, that would make waves of positive changes.

Also consider this, at the end of the day with those who keep calm and carry on will have a greater chance at making a change, rather than throwing in the towel and to have to face the shame of coming back around, when the very thing that we've desired so much may happen to become a reality one day. - Never say never.

That is a chance that a lot of people are not willing to take. Risk vs Reward. Giving up is the easy way out.

It's about understanding the industry and syncing up the reality vs turning off the power button completely = giving up = surrendering = letting them win by ones voluntary surrender.

Having the mindset of there being nothing left to fight for is surely a way to never get what what one desires, ever. That all or nothing approach, is quite the gamble.

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