2560X1600 output on the Z: possible?

Title says it all.

I'm planning to buy the Sony Z and I would like to know if anyone has successfully tested either the VGA or the HDMi output of the Z with such a resolution.

I'm planning on pairing it with a HP LP3065 30" monitor which unfortunately doesn't have any type of internal scaler, so if the laptop doesn't output the native resolution, it won't work at all.

The Nvidia website isn't really clear about whether or not the 9300M GS can handle such a resolution, although theoretically it should. But of course i'd rather be sure before i buy.

So, anyone has any info on that?

thanks

 

HDMI would be your only possibility since VGA maximum output is 1920 by or 1080

 

I highly doubt that the Z has a dual-link bandwidth. Pretty much every laptop on the market has single-link HDMI/DVI with a maximum output of WUXGA.

 

Looks like you're right, i researched it and if the Z's HDMI output is 1.3 then it should be ok.

But if someone has tested it i'd love to know.

 

Quote from http://www.nvidia.com/object/geforce_9300m_gs.html

It has full HDMI 1.3 support which means it supports 2560x1600p60 (max 30-bit/px) (source Wikipedia).

It even should support Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master audio if it truly supports FULL HDMI 1.3 spec

 

Does not mean that at all.

Just because a source device supports HDMI 1.3 does not mean it supports all output resolutions. The PS3 supports HDMI 1.3 as well but the highest resolution is 1080P.

 

FYI I'm using my Z @ 1920 X 1200 connected through an hdmi to dvi converter! which was not possibly through any hdmi output i tried before: desktop or laptop, the best i could get was 1920 X1080 !!

 

Please read my post before spitting words out.

I'm clearly pointing out (so is the quote from Nvidias' page) that it has FULL HDMI 1.3 support. Full means it has all the features HDMI 1.3 spec offers including optional features like TrueHD and DTS-HD. Otherwise it wouldn't be FULL support now would it?

 

You still don't get it.

Even FULL SUPPORT does not mean supporting every possible output resolution. There are many HDMI 1.3 blu-ray players but none support higher than 1080P.

What part of that do you not understand?

 

OMG! There is nothing to get. If it says FULL support then it doesn't mean it only supports 5 features out of 8. FULL means 8 out of 8. How can I make this any clearer... (even my 8 year old son understands it)

If You are referring that Nvidia is just writing crap on its site then YES You cannot think that it supports all features that are in specs. Don't say that I don't get it - say it out loud NVIDIA LIES TO YOU. Be more comprehensible.

 

One last time...FULL SUPPORT DOESN'T MEAN IT SUPPORTS EVERY RESOLUTION.

All laptops have full VGA support. Do all of them support all possible resolutions such as 1920x1200?

No..........

If you think that is "lying" in product specifications, you have a lot to learn.

I've already told you, there are already blu-ray players (including PS3) that support HDMI 1.3. But not a single one supports resolution greater than 1080P.

Full HDMI 1.3 support means they support all these features:

sRGB
YCbCr
8 channel LPCM/192 kHz/24-bit audio capability
Blu-ray Disc video and audio at full resolution[F]
Consumer Electronic Control (CEC)[G]
DVD-Audio support
Super Audio CD (DSD) support[H]
Deep Color
xvYCC
Auto lip-sync
Dolby TrueHD bitstream capable
DTS-HD Master Audio bitstream capable
Updated list of CEC commands

However, the resolutions in this table:

Maximum resolution over single link at 24-bit/px 1920×1200p60 2560×1600p75
Maximum resolution over single link at 30-bit/px[C] N/A 2560×1600p60
Maximum resolution over single link at 36-bit/px[D] N/A 1920x1200p75
Maximum resolution over single link at 48-bit/px[E] N/A 1920×1200p60

ARE THE MAXIMUM RESOLUTIONS FOR THE HDMI 1.3 SPECS, NOT FOR ALL DEVICES THAT SUPPORT HDMI 1.3.

IN OTHER WORDS, THOSE ARE HDMI 1.3'S LIMITS.

UNDERSTAND?

 

If PS3 doesn't support higher resolutions than 1920x1080 then it is NOT in complience with FULL HDMI 1.3 specification.

You can say that PS3 supports all REQUIRED features for 1.3 but not ALL (or in the other words REQUIRED+OPTIONAL) of them meaning it doesn't have FULL support for it.

 

Wow, wow guys cool it please...

I just started this thread for a very simple reason, to find out if the Z could connect to a 30" monitor.

While I appreciate everyone's help and insight, can we all chill and get back on the subject please?

I'm sure this question would interest more people than just me...

 

The fact is there are many devices such as blu-ray drives and TVs that claim full HDMI 1.3 compliance but none of which support more than 1080P.

End of story.

So back to the original question, no, the specs absolutely DO NOT mean 2560x1600 is supported.

 

The original question was: Does the Z support a 2560X1600 output?

If anyone has tested it, please answer.

 

Yeah, anyone know? Especially through the dock, which does have a DVI port. The 1600x900 13.1" LCD is my ideal laptop screen, and the 3.4lb weight of the Sony Z with claimed 6 hour battery life is excellent, too. If only it could work with my 30" LCD, it'd be perfect

The new apple macbook/air/pro all support 2560x1600 from their Mini DisplayPort connector, but you need to buy a Mini DisplayPort to Dual-Link DVI Adapter, for $99. This is the first DisplayPort->Dual-link DVI adapter I've seen, but unfortunately it's a different physical connector , so it won't work with any non-apple laptops that have a normal displayport connector. And the apple laptops are [email protected]"=113dpi (Macbook and Macbook Air) or [email protected]"=110dpi (Macbook Pro), much less than the Sony Z [email protected]"=140dpi.

The Thinkpad T400 with discrete graphics supports dual-link DVI but only if you get the Advanced Mini Dock ($175 normally, but $140 through CPP). Highest resolution in the 14.1" model is 1440x900 (120dpi), which is better than 1280x800, but still not nearly as good as the Sony Z.

The Thinkpad X200s has [email protected]" (140dpi), and it's slightly narrower, shallower, lighter, better battery life than the Z, but it doesn't work with the Advanced Mini Dock. There's a "Mobile media base" for $170 which has a DisplayPort on it, but you'd at least also need a DisplayPort->Dual-link DVI converter, if it even works at 2560x1600. And 2 adapters in series to make the laptop work with my LCD is rather Rube Goldbergian.

 

I called Sony tech support, talked to a guy named Charlie who assured me that the Z590 will work with dual-link DVI through the dock. However, the dock is out of stock, and there's only a 30 day return policy, so I'm hesitant to buy the laptop now, having to wait for the dock, and then trying it, and having to return everything a few weeks from now. Or worse, the dock doesn't show up for a month, and then I can't return anything

Anyone try the Z with a 30" monitor yet? Or else, anyone in the Boulder/Denver CO area with a Z laptop and dock, want to try it with my 30" monitor? I can bring the monitor to you to try it out, should only take 5 minutes.

- Miles

 

Any updates on this?

 

Yeah, I am watching this thread like a hawk. I just ordered a Z, but it really would be a big deal if it supports 2560 x 1600.

I have found some things that are helpful, but nothing that is definitive. Specifically, I found some useful information on the support section for notebook computers. It said:

"HDMI supports any television or personal computer video format, including standard, enhanced, or high definition video. Its architecture allows bandwidth of up to 10.2 Gbps (Gigabits per second) which easily handles the 1920x1080p/60Hz resolution and frequency of top devices. HDMI's current specification version - 1.3 - expands video resolution support to 2560x1600p/60Hz.

HDMI also covers the best in next-generation digital audio, being able to support the delivery of high-bitrate and lossless surround sound technologies of Dolby TrueHD®, DTS-HD™ Master Audio, and uncompressed multi-channel LPCM between devices."



But, under the frequently asked question tab of the same page, it also said:

"Does the HDMI port of my VAIO computer system support all available HDMI features?

Although current HDMI-equipped VAIO computer systems have HDMI 1.3 ports, features such as 'Deep Color' and support for Dolby TrueHD® and DTS-HD™ Master Audio bitstreams are not currently implemented."

So, it lists some HDMI 1.3 features are not included, but does not expressly say whether the 2560 x 1600 resolution, which it expressly mentions as a capability of HDMI 1.3, is excluded.

esupport.sony.com/perl/support-info.pl?info_id=22&template_id=1&region_id=1

Also, I found this (which seems to settle an earlier argument in this thread) on HDMI.org:

"Think features rather than HDMI version number.
HDMI is constantly evolving to meet the needs of the marketplace. The standard is constantly adding more and more features that manufacturers can implement if they desire. But HDMI does not require manufacturers to implement everything that HDMI can do. HDMI provides a menu of capabilities and allows the manufacturer to choose which of those features make sense for its product line.

As a result, HDMI strongly recommends that consumers look for products with the features they want, rather than the version number of the HDMI components. Version numbers reflect capabilities, but do not correspond to product features. For example, if you want the new video features called Deep Color, look for Deep Color in the feature set rather than HDMI 1.3, the version of the specification that enabled Deep Color. Why? Because the version of the specification that enables Deep Color (1.3) does not mandate that Deep Color functionality be implemented."

and also:

"Q. What’s new in the HDMI 1.3 Specification?
Higher speed: Although all previous versions of HDMI have had more than enough bandwidth to support all current HDTV formats, including full, uncompressed 1080p signals, HDMI 1.3 increases its single-link bandwidth to 340 MHz (10.2 Gbps) to support the demands of future HD display devices, such as higher resolutions, Deep Color and high frame rates. In addition, built into the HDMI 1.3 specification is the technical foundation that will let future versions of HDMI reach significantly higher speeds."


hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx#112

My own take is that, assuming the port really is 1.3 like the Sony site says, it probably can in theory drive some model of 2560 x 1600 monitor. I feel this way because it seems to me that the 2560 issue, ultimately, would relate to bandwidth capability rather than features, and I do not see bandwidth capability as being a "feature" in the same way that trademarked technology like "Deep Color" or "Dolby TrueHD" would be considered features. The former (bandwidth) seems like a hardware capability, and the latter seem like technologies that implement the hardware capability. In other words, 1.3 seems like a specification rather than a feature, and it would seem to me that, in order to meet the 1.3 specification, the port would have to be capable of the 340 MHz. And if it is capable of the 340 MHz, then, as a hardware matter, it would seem to be capable of pushing a 2560 x 1600 monitor, at least in theory.

Another issue, I don't know if the video card itself can do 2560 x 1600, but if a $1,200 mac can do it, I would like to think that a Z's card can as well?

Of course, all of that is speculation on my part (although hopefully well-reasoned), and my knowledge of technology is moderate to high, but certainly not expert. There has got to be someone who knows for sure because this is driving me nuts.

Please, someone resolve this question for me, because I love screen real estate, thats why I want the Z to begin with, and I would die to have a 30" 2560 x 1600 workspace attached to a 3.5lb mobile computer.

Also, not that it is particularly relevant to this thread, but as a young attorney, I think Sony may have some exposure under a theory of express warranty when it states that all of its current HDMI ports are 1.3, then mentions what 1.3 does, but then tries to claim somewhere else that the computers don't actually do what is claimed for 1.3.

 

It looks like I have found at least one 2560 x 1600 monitor that supports HDMI (presumably 1.3). The Dell 3008WFP. It is overpriced, but hopefully more monitors will soon follow.

accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/Monitors/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&cs=19&sku=223-4890

 

It's not terribly important that a monitor supports HDMI per se (unless you want audio or something)... as you can use a simple adapter to connect to a DVI input.

 

A single DVI will not support 2560 x 1600 resolution, it tops out at 1600 x 1200, at least I believe that to be the case.

A dual DVI, HDMI 1.3 equipped computer, or HDMI 1.3 to dual DVI converter (if such a product exists, that is one of the big questions I think we have) is required to drive a 2560 x 1600 monitor at full resolution, but it seems that most of the available monitors only have a dual DVI as an input option for full resolution.

Therefore, an HDMI to DVI converter would not be very helpful. Moreover, there are plenty of HDMI capable monitors at the 1600x1200 level.

 

mwave.com/mwave/SkuSearch_v2.asp?SCriteria=AA53930
heres a dual dvi to hdmi that i found maybe this might work?

 

sewelldirect.com/HDMI-Male-to-DVI-D-Male-Dual-Link-Cable-6-foot.asp

actually this one should work as it has the right looking pins

 

VAIO Z11XN/B (Central European version without Blu-Ray) support 1920x1200@60Hz via analog VGA output. Sony tech support say, that the dedicated graphics card (nVidia 9300M GS) in this vaio supported resolution of 2560x1600. Try it with some sample models of LCD in shops...

 

I can tell you that the dock has the physical dual-link connector but I don't have a 30", so I can't answer the real question (and I don't really want to buy one until i know for sure )

 

I have a 30" Dell 3007WFP. If you're anywhere near Boulder, CO, we can try it out.

- Miles

 

If you do try it out, please please please report back your results asap. Also, make sure you are using the "high speed" DVI-D dual cables (from what I have read, not all cables are dvi-d dual, and not all cables are high speed second generation )

 

About a 18 hour flight away..

 

BUMP. Looking at buying a Z laptop and this is a crucial point. Anyone find anything out?

 

I should be able to find out about this later today. My new 30 inch Apple Cinema display was just delivered by UPS and I will hook it up to my Z21 soon.

As the display has been on a UPS truck for hours and it is about -15 Celsius here in Sweden at the moment I will be waiting for the display to reach a more humane temperature before starting it up.

 

Sofar I have not been able to get the Z to output 2560x1600 to my 30 inch Apple Cinema display.

This is my setup:

- Running Z21 downgraded to XP

- Apple Cinema 30 inch display connected to the Z on the HDMI port via a HDMI male to DVI-D female Dual Link adapter.

The specific adapter I am using is this one ( link to swedish online store ) http://www.kjell.com/?item=98142 .


What happens is that it will not let me output anything higher than 1280x800.

The nvidia driver that came with the XP downgrade download was a bit dated, I noticed that it was built sometime in March 2008.

I went to www.laptopvideo2go.com and was able to install newer drivers from there. I installed both the latest non-certified drivers ( v185.20 from 2008-12-26 ) and the latest certified one ( v180.48 from 2008-11-06 ).

With both these newer drivers, when the Display adapter is removed and then reinserted I now get the option to choose up to 2560x1600 res in the Display properties!

However, when the the settings are applied it will automatically return to the 1280x800 setting, and that will once again be the max res it will let me choose. Until I remove and reinsert the adapter.

I have tried using only the 30 inch display, and both the internal Z display and the 30 inch display simultaneously. The resolution on the external display will be restricted to 1280x800 either way.

I talked to Sony Support and after about 30 mins he told me he was going to escalate this matter to "tech support" and that he would get back to me in about 2 days.

If any of you have any ideas or would like me to try something to get this working let me know.

About the adapter I am using, to me it looks like the correct one, there are only one way to make a dual link DVI adapter right? Since it is a passive adapter with no electronics inside, just the pins on the hdmi side connected to the pins on the DVI-D side. But since Apple's MiniDisplayPort to Dual-Link DVI adapter needs power and has electronics inside I figured perhaps another type of adapter might be needed ( to get Dual Link ), but it doesnt seem like it to me. Any ideas?

 

Out of curiosity is the HDMI on XP clear? I've been having an issue where HDMI looks worse than VGA on my 24" cause it looks slightly unsharp. I sent it to Sony support and they said its XP. They told me the XP downgrade wouldn't let me use HDMI correctly. Could you please confirm?

Thanks!

 

HDMI only has 3 TMDS links in it, one for each of red, green, blue:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Definition_Multimedia_Interface
That's the same number as single link DVI, but dual-link DVI has twice as many (2 each for red, green, blue):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface

Therefore, a passive adapter with no electronics inside cannot convert from HDMI to dual-link DVI, even if the HDMI worked at a resolution beyond what single-link DVI is capable of. Like you say, in theory an adapter with electronics inside may be able to take higher clocked HDMI TMDS links, and split them each in to two separate (lower-clocked) TMDS links, for dual-link DVI. I have not found any adapters to do so, and I do not know if the Apple mini-displayport to dual-link dvi adapter would work (if you first used a passive HDMI->mini-displayport adapter, which also doesn't exist).

However, the dock for the Z does have an actual DVI port on it. I don't have a Z or the dock for it, and have not been able to determine if it's a dual-link DVI port, and if so, if the Z in the dock would work with a dual-link DVI display (like your Apple 30", or my Dell 30").

If you could find out and post your results here, I'd be very grateful!

 

The 1280x800 that I get on the Apple Cinema does not seem unsharp.

 

Thats one of the questions I asked the Sony Support and he said he would forward it to tech support. We'll see if they have an answer for it when they get back to me.

This may very well be what is happening. Do you know that this is the case for sure?

If it is, then what is the purpose for all these HDMI to dual link DVI adapters that exists if they do not actually output dual link DVI (!). Am I missing something here or why do these adapters exist then?

 

Update: Sony Tech support has not called back, it's been a week now.

Does anyone have more knowledge about HDMI to Dual Link DVI adapters? How can they be called dual link dvi if they do not actually convert to dual link DVI? What am I missing here?

Thanks.

 

TechViking - possible for you to borrow a dock? I would bring mine along for you to try, but we're kinda far apart.

 

I am afraid not. I dont know anyone who has a dock and the Sony Center store here does not carry it.

You have a Z and a dock xand? Would it perhaps be possible for you to walk by a Apple Store and try that with a 30 inch display? Or any other store with 30 inch displays.

 

haha. i might try that some lunchtime...

 

I just ordered a Z590 on January 13. I also own two 30" monitors (the Dell 3007wfp and the Gateway XHD3000). I run both of these at 2560*1600 resolution using my desktop PC. I will test and confirm the question when I receive my Z590 in two weeks. Or if it arrives sooner.

 

Well, I've been waiting ever since the Z series came out for someone to try it with the dock with a 30" monitor, and I got sick of waiting. I already have a Dell 30", and I just ordered a Z590 and dock from Provantage. Both were in stock, and I got 2 day shipping. I'll post as soon as I try it out. Worst case, I'm out $75 in shipping, but at least it'll be resolved.

- Miles

 

MilesInCo, how did it go with the dock? Or was your shipment delayed?

 

It looks like it is not capable. I received my Z590 and tested it with my two monitors.

The Gateway XHD3000 went to a maximum of 1920*1200. The Dell 3007WFP went to a maximum of 1280*800. The reason for the difference is that the Gateway has HDCP while the Dell does not.

Sorry for the bad news.

 

Did you try it with the dock? There's no way it will work without the dock...

I just got tracking info, my z590 and dock aren't due to arrive until Wednesday (1/28).

 

No I haven't tried it with a dock. I don't have one. Let's hope you have better luck.

 

My Z590 and dock arrived, I tried it out, but only got 1280x800. Then I called tech support, and a tech support guy tried all the same settings I did, through some fancy network thing (like VNC or something).

I'm still on the phone with them, but it's not looking good.

 

Do you have HDCP with your monitor? If you don't, that would explain why you're only getting 12800*800. That's the reason why I only got that with my Dell 3007WFP.

I don't want to sound pessimistic, but my guess is the docking station just takes the HDMI output and converts it into DVI. I basically did that when I used the Dell 3007WFP. I used a separate converter to go from the HDMI to DVI. I used the same converter to convert the HDMI output in my PS3 to a monitor that only had DVI input. That monitor also had HDCP and so displayed its maximum resolution which was 1920*1080.

 

I don't know what HDCP is, but my monitor is a Dell 3007WFP-HC. It only has a DVI port, no DisplayPort, HDMI, VGA, S-Video, nothing besides DVI.

The only reason I was hopeful for the dock working is because there are various ThinkPads that have no DVI connector on the laptop, but do have one on the dock, and you can use them (with the dock) with a dual-link DVI monitor. I think the old models T61, T43, when they had discrete graphics, would work that way. AFAIK the current models T400, T500, and W500 with discrete graphics and the "Advanced Mini Dock" will work, too. I'd suggest anyone who plans to buy one to use with a 30" monitor research the *exact* model you're buying before you purchase, though.

- Miles

PS: I tried ohming out between the dock connector and the DVI connector, but I couldn't detect a connection for *any* pins, including the single link DVI pins. So perhaps there's a extra driver/buffer/transceiver between them (for ESD protection?), that makes such a simple test not work. I'm not gonna take the dock or laptop apart to investigage further... I'll wait another day to see if my support request at nVidia goes anywhere, and then I'll return the Z590 and dock, probably get a ThinkPad instead.

 

HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection) is copy protection scheme promoted by the MPAA (Motion Picture Arts Academy). As I understand it, it downsizes the signal from your video card if your monitor does not have HDCP in it. It's used to prevent copying of encrypted movies. So the video card in your laptop or PC may be capable of 2560*1600 resolution but it automatically downsizes it to a lower resolution (1280*800) because the monitor lacks HDCP.

I think it only works with HDMI video outputs because HDMI has a built-in copy protection scheme. I have a PC with DVI outputs (it's a 6600GT Nvidia card) and when I connect it to the Dell 3007WFP, I do get 2560*1600 resolution. I think my Dell is basically the same as yours. It also only has a single DVI input.

AFAIK, I think it's the HDMI interface on the Sony that reduces the resolution to 1920*1200. The video card in the Sony may be capable of 2560*1600 but the HDMI is looking for a HDCP monitor before it allows the higher resolution to pass through. I'm still hoping I'm wrong though.

If the video card in the Sony Z has dual-link (as opposed to dual DVI's) capability, like my 6600GT has, it should be capable of 2560*1600 resolution. It's just that the HDMI is frustating the higher resolution.

You should make sure you don't have this same problem with the ThinkPad before buying it.