Defective Nvidia chipsets in your current Vaio?

I am sure that the insurance is only going to cover accidents and/or theft. It is not going to cover hardware failures.

Gary

 

Well in our country..it also coveres that. So hardware failues that happens outside warranty.

It do depends on the insurance package thats for sure

 

Like they keep their support site up to date. people are still waiting for drivers officially from sony to upgrade to SP1. That and drivers for the toshiba Bluetooth stack that wont crash the desktop every 5 seconds.

 

Anyone know the phrase "Absence of Evidence is Evidence of Absence"? So far, only two notebook manufacturers have had issues with the Nvidia 8 series: HP and Dell (or specifically the M1330). Sony has used the 8 series in two generations of the SZ and in all generations of the FZ series - yet there never has been a widespread issue. I'm with Ars Technica that this is most likely an isolated incident to one or two manufacturers, and Q4 reports will prove or disprove it.

 

Although I have no concrete proof/evidence, I'll maybe agree on this comment. Ever wonder why Dells & HPs are cheaper than Sonys.... maybe this is the real reason of "you get what you pay for."

 

You're both forgot the third largest manufacturer, Apple. Their Macbook Pros (8600M GT - both the 15" and 17" models) are failing with similar symptoms as Dell's XPS models. Apple's response has been the same; they've been replacing the logic boards on a case by case basis. If anyone is interested there are a ton of pictures in some of their forums showing the various stages of failure. (distorted graphics, color tint, and finally display failure at boot) Some are on their second and third boards; echoing similar situations in our very own Dell XPS forum.

Last time I checked all three of those manufacturers sold a TON more units than Sony. Apple users pay a premium for their notebooks - did they "get what they paid for"?

How many models did Sony have on the market that uses a G84M or G86M chipset? As far as I'm aware of there's only three series ( SZ, FZ, and AR) (please correct me if there are others) that had models manufactured between late 2006/2007 up to the Santa Rosa refresh at the beginning of this year.

SZ is a little tricky because of the Stamina/Speed switch; it may be a while before we know what's going on with this model. If everyone was always on Speed mode it would be another story - perhaps we'd have some data at this point. That's where I'm hoping the FZ and AR owners can help contribute to our discussion.

To dismiss a disease in an at-risk patient because they don't exhibit symptoms is just asinine; this is a chronic issue- it'll take time to manifest and very much like Nvidia stated it depends on the usage patterns.

 

I dont consider Apple laptops to be as quality as Sony...for apple you actually pay for the apple brand...and their looks.

I have never been impressed with them.

 

I would have to disagree about the apply quality part. I read an article about how a japanese firm disected mac air to see if they could cut costs. they said that apple used to may screws and other components to keep the inner workings in place. where that firm would have just packed that part in by other parts to keep it from moving.

http://gizmodo.com/359776/japanese-engineers-macbook-air-insides-are-full-of-waste

 

Now I could turn that statement around and say that this shows that apple does not design efficiently.
Too many screws means difficulties with repairs.
And another screw means a screwdriver when working which means another potential risk.
What sense is a bridge that has got that many connections and pieces tht it can only carry its own weight, yet the component (with the amount of material) as a whole will not fall apart when bombed?
There is no need to screw everything into place, as long as pieces aren't loose, there is no problem.

 

Well I just got a message from bestbuy. I am suppose to call them about some options that are avail to me. I guess they talked to sony and couldnt get a hold of Nvidia from what the voice mail has to say. We will see....

 

So is the current crop of FZ's safe????

Would you buy one?

FZ290ebb

 

I think that is impossible to tell.
Generally no, however the fact that Sony does not seem affected by any failures is also interesting.

There is no way to tell unless NVidia publishes the exact reasons for the failure.
Not just the general stuff like weak material, heating, cooling etcetera.

I suppose you are reasonably safe if you get one (looking at "no current Sony failures), also if you use it regularly you will be able to get it repaired on warranty.

 

Here is there SEC filing verbatim:

Item 8.01 Other Events.

On July 2, 2008, NVIDIA Corporation stated that it would take a $150 million to $200 million charge against cost of revenue to cover anticipated customer warranty, repair, return, replacement and other consequential costs and expenses arising from a weak die/packaging material set in certain versions of our previous generation MCP and GPU products used in notebook systems. All newly manufactured products and all products currently shipping in volume have a different and more robust material set.

The previous generation MCP and GPU products that are impacted were included in a number of notebook products that were shipped and sold in significant quantities. Certain notebook configurations of these MCP and GPU products are failing in the field at higher than normal rates. While we have not been able to determine a root cause for these failures, testing suggests a weak material set of die/package combination, system thermal management designs, and customer use patterns are contributing factors. We have developed and have made available for download a software driver to cause the system fan to begin operation at the powering up of the system and reduce the thermal stress on these chips. We have also recommended to our customers that they consider changing the thermal management of the MCP and GPU products in their notebook system designs. We intend to fully support our customers in their repair and replacement of these impacted MCP and GPU products that fail.

We have begun discussions with our supply chain regarding reimbursement to us for some or all of the costs we have incurred and may incur in the future relating to the weak material set. We will also seek to access our insurance coverage. We continue to not see any abnormal failure rates in any systems using NVIDIA products other than certain notebook configurations. However, we are continuing to test and otherwise investigate other products. There can be no assurance that we will not discover defects in other MCP or GPU products.

 

Im on the phone right now with customer relations. They said they called sony and talked to them. Sony stated they were not aware of a defect at all. Nvidia couldnt be reached. He did some searching on the internet and found what we found so he said he would get them to replace the video card with a diffrent brand or a better hardware then i originally had. we will see what comes of this....

 

It would be great if Sony could actually offer a solution for all customers, but I suppose when you get you answer, it will be a first step towards finding out what exactly is going on.
(With regard to Sony)

I'll be curious to hear what they tell you.

All the best with you inquiery!

 

We don't know. Both Nvidia and Sony have offered very little information so far. I've been adding links and information to the first post of this thread when something new pops up (if you're just hearing about this now).

The FZ290EBB has a 8400M GT in it; since that's one of the G86M chipsets I'd be hesitant to recommend it right now. There's a ton of information that's being shared by users on both Dell and Apple's forums. It may make sense for you to really research this purchase with other FZ users first. Ask specific questions in the FZ thread, etc..

FYI - there's a direct link to the SEC filing in the first post.

 

well finally off the phone. I started off getting a upgraded video card or an ATI card to getting nothing. how the hell that happened who knows. They stated that an official statement from Nvidia needs to come out before they do anything at all. I guess they want to test it but I dont know what behavior they are looking for at all. Sony like I said told him they were not aware of a defect from nvidia.

 

uh oh. Just when I was enjoying my barely 2 week old FZ348E/B I discovered this forum and then read about this. makes me sad indeed.

compared to the dell d620 i used regularly, it gets hotter but not that much. I never bothered to check the actual GPU temp, I will do that later today.

Now, this things really get me worried. Should I start and think of replacing the vaio with something else (while/if I can)? As I said, I am liking the FZ the more I use it, its quite snappy and effective from what I intend to do with it (graphics, programming, and movies) but if it has a potential of dying on me anytime soon, replacing it would be a sad move.

OT: What other blu ray equipped, dedicated mem grouphics notebook are out there, that is less than a thousand?

 

Now that's uselful... or not at all...
I believe at the beginning of the thread somebody mentioned that NVidia potentially keeps information under lock and key so that they won't be hit by libel action before their lawsuit is over...
So judging on that it may be some time before we hear something...

The fact that Sony has not been informed or had any problems seems very dodgy though...

What is going on?

 

This is the statement that concerns me. This would indicate that the problem is widespread or has the potential to be. I'm am sure that there is no time table for failure, and it is probably more of a question of when not if. Sony was unable to confirm or deny the existance of potentially defective GPU's in the current FZ. So without evidence that it's safe I will probably not take a chance on the FZ.

 

well sony wont admit there is a issue with any of their hardware at this time. I understand that Im sure they are gun shy after that batter issue a while back.

Bestbuy called they stated that they will upgrade my graphics chip to the 8800 nvidia chip. To keep me as a customer. I thought that was very nice.

 

That is nice of them, true.
But what about other Sony customers?

I'll really be interested in how this'll evolve.

 

D620 typically has an integrated GPU so it should be cooler.

I wouldn't worry about your FZ just yet. Even if all 8400M/8600M chips are affected -- like Inquirer reported, but not confirmed by nVidia -- , it would be a mean-shift of the expected life of your video card. What does it mean?

Well, even if there is no defect at all, out of the millions of 8400M/8600M produced by nVidia, the one that you get could be anywhere from a gem that can be tortured 10 years without breaking down to a dud that only lasts 366 days, right after your standard warranty expires.

What you get really depends on the luck of the draw, but most likely you are going to get one that will last you 3-4 years. Why? Because the manufacturer seldoms offer warranty for more than 4 years, meaning their profits is really low if they offer you the 5th year (a lot of repair cost will incur in the 5th year and also you wouldn't by their new laptops if your old one still works great).

If the entire product line is affected, the gem that lasts 10 year would probably lasts only 8 year while the dud that lasts 366 days probably won't survive 2-3 month -- so the chances that you get the gem or the dud are still the same, it's just their life are all shorter and now most likely your video card is probably going to only last 2-3 years instead of 3-4.

So if you think about it, the difference really is just the price of 2-year warranty -- Before, you buy a laptop without paying extended warranty, you have a very good chance that it's going to last 4 years without incidence. Now, you have a very good chance that your video card is going to die within 2-3 years, you buy an extended warranty, and then your video card dies in the 2nd or 3rd year, get a new card that lasts you another 2 years and make up the total of 4 years of usage just as before.

In the end, if you haven't bought the laptop, it is a good idea to steer away the 8400M/8600M line or at least get a good deal that makes up the extra warranty. But if you already have it, all you need to do is extend your warranty at the right time.

 

thanks for the advice Skyshade. The thing is, all of my personal laptops last more that 2 years without any problems or up until the time it will be replaced. And I don't replace my laptops often (I can't afford to) so what I do is I choose 1 that I think will last me 2-3 years. I've had a dells and ibms before, they are tough.

Now, the FZ is my first (personal, I've had one company issued) vaio notebook; I was hoping it will give me 2-3 years of trouble-free service until I read this thread and now it makes me feel uneasy. I could still replace my FZ as it is within the 14 day return period BUT there is NOTHING right now that I see that could replace the FZ in terms of features (that I want; at least 256 MB of dedicated graphics ram, blu ray capabled with hdmi output) at the sub $1000 price range. I guess your advice of buying an extended service is best given my dilemna. However, I still feel uneasy thinking that the GPU on the FZ could die on me anytime soon... I wish sony or Nvdia could give us users better options.

 

Ok here is my question, if they are allowing my video card to be upgraded which one should I get? The 8800 or 9000 series? I am not aware of what teh specs are or what benifits I will see.

 

I think the 9000 series would be a better option, even if they are only a revised 8000 series...

But then, I don't know anything about graphics cards.

 

me either, I did read that they run cooler. Im under the impression that decoding is handles on the gpu and not cpu. I wonder if this would help when I encode a movie?

 

Just noticed on the FW CTO page at Sony Style - ATI video cards.... interesting.

BTW - What's the best way to go to onboard graphics - just disable the NVIDIA device driver?

 

On an FZ series machine? You can't. That model does not offer dual video cards like some of the other lines have.

Gary

 

Most Sony machines don't have video cards, the video is embedded on the motherboard.

Gary

 

Didn't say FZ, I said FW. I thought it was interesting that they had ATI cards instead of nVidia on the FW and then I found this thread.....

 

That is what I thought but bestbuy thinks I should be able to. I am a little more skeptical about the process. I have a vgn-sz650n/c

 

Yup, there is really not that many other choices out there for the price range you are looking at. You will have to search for deals like crazy to get a comparable specs laptop.

If it makes you feel better, I still have an 8-year old Sony Z505 running like a charm (it's a little bit hot now but I haven't cleaned the fan for about 3 years ) and I bought FZ recently only because my GRX550 died after 6 years of usage. Like I said, you really have a fairly good chance to get 2-3 year trouble free usage from your FZ. I think you should enjoy your laptop and, if necessary, extend the warranty as it gets close to its 1-yr birthday.

 

Well, I was using 175.16 drivers from NBF and was running a good 59-60C on average here in my slightly warm Texas home office with an external 19" display on HDMI. Thought I would drop back down to the original drivers that came with the FZ to see if that would help. It did not - same temps.

I have 2 years on service and if it goes, then it goes. I would like for it to run just a little cooler, but I also need the performance. Can't worry too much about it until we hear more about this from a SONY perspective.

I am reloading 175.16.....

 

Knowing that you have an FZ I assumed you were talking about it. Does the FW support the two video options at the same time like some of the other Sony models???

Gary

 

I'm not sure if it's the best decision, but I decided to hang on to the FZ for now. Having the right mix of features, performance and value won over this nvidia chip issue.

If this notebook last 2 years then I'm happy more than that will be a bonus. So, I'm only gabling 1 year really, the 1st year is covered by sony. I might just follow Skyshade's advice on buying the extended warranty. I will be monitoring developments.

 

One trend that I'm seeing with the temperature polls is lower temperature when a form of power management is being used. (be it powermizer, power schemes, etc..)

Under normal conditions I'd say that was a really good thing (as opposed to having the temperature remain constant under a setting like 'max performance', 'always on'). With this issue however it may not be so cut and dry. Take a look at the idle temperatures differences between those using power management software and those that don't. In some cases it's pretty substantial (up to 20° with XP SP3). Imagine how often that temperature fluctuates (in that range) when the software is enabled. That probably can't be good for the materials in the chipset. Of course, high temperatures aren't good either. The real question is: what is the lesser evil.

We need a lot more data from users. Thank you to everyone that has participated so far. Please point out the polls to other users if you have a chance. The more people that participate the better.

 

Dell has done something admirable and hopefully other manufacturers will follow suit. They've listed ten of their models which use the faulty Nvidia chipsets. The models are:

GeForce 8400M GS (Inspiron 1420)
Quadro NVS 135M (Latitude D630)
Quadro NVS 135M (Latitude D630c)
Quadro FX 360M (Precision M2300)
GeForce 8400M GS (Vostro Notebook 1310)
GeForce 8400M GS (Vostro Notebook 1400)
GeForce 8400M GS (Vostro Notebook 1510)
GeForce 8600M GS (Vostro Notebook 1710)
GeForce 8600M GS (XPS M1330)
GeForce 8400M GS / GeForce 8600M GT (XPS M1530)

Of interest is that they also are included the Quadro as well. To the best of my knowledge Sony doesn't use these in their notebooks.

Link for more info:
NVIDIA GPU Update for Dell Laptop Owners (added to first post)

Quote from announcement:

this more or less confirms that the issue can't be fixed with a software update alone:

and how (Dell) is currently dealing with the issue:

Somewhat helpful if you've been following the issue. This will put pressure on other OEMs to do the same and *hopefully* we'll be able to get Sony to make an announcement as well. I think extending the warranties for all models that use the G84M and G86M chipsets would be a good first step.

 

Well, I guess this is good news and bad news. Good news is there is more OEMs coming out, but the bad part is that the problem is more than what nVidia said initially -- like I said before, not really a surprise for me. Free extension of warranty is definitely a good idea for Sony if Sony is affected by the problem as well.

 

HP has followed suit. They list a whopping 24 models in both the Pavilion and Presario lines. They're offering an extended 2 year warranty with free repairs.

Found this quote by Jen-Hsun Huang (president and CEO) on the Nvidia site about the issue:

Updated the links on the first post. No news from Sony. There were three recent threads about SZ's failing to boot or only showing blank screens. I hope it's not related to this issue:

So my SZ740 does not turn on... Power Led goes ON, HD Blinks, CD Blinks

Vaio Salvage : SZ Won't Boot

SZ Screen turns black at random

 

Have to say HP is better than Dell here that they have proactively offered the free 2-year repair. Since it starts from the start of original warranty, this kinds of confirmes my prediction that the mean-shift of design life will shift your GPU expected life down to 2-3 years and if you have a 2-year warranty you should be well covered.

 

Now this is interesting. That link talks about earlier SZs with Nvidia 7400 go....

 

Not related, the poster mentions the screen issue happens in Stamina mode, which uses the Intel GMA 950.

 

Has there been a response yet from Sony? I have a VGN-FZ180E/B which I purchased in February, 2008.

Not sure if I'm affected, but, I do notice that my power brick and that my laptop do get hot.

 

Well, my "Power Brick" gets quite hot too, on an SZ7 though.

Now any laptop under full load gets quite hot too.

If you read through the thread, I think around page three, I asked for a simplyfication and some help for a "non-expert" as I don't know anything about graphiccards.

That part of the thread should tell you whether your affected.
I think you are though...
(Good luck with finding the bit I mentioned)

And the temperature itself is not a result of the problem, the problem is weak material affected by the temperature.

So I think, read the whole thread (I know, this sounds bad) but that's the best way to get an idea.

 

Detlev, reading through.. or glancing through.. I see you have got your sz recently.. and is the same case for me.. My temp is also at around 57/58C but I am sitting in air conditioning.. maybe outside it would be higher.. now how high is high and what is normal?? do you have some numbers from your research??

thanks

 

Well, we have a couple of polls going (listed in my signature). There's not a lot of responses yet though there is some good information there. You'd want to look at the 8400M poll. Cooling Central has some specific numbers as well - make sure you check it out.

My SZ (2008 refresh model) idles around ~68° (speed mode). Although I'm concerned about higher temperatures my focus has been on limiting the temperature fluctuations as much as possible and minimizing the temperature range when I can.

 

xrules,
well sadly, as I mentioned above I don't really know anything about graphic cards, but getting back to you airconditioning.
It will simplify cooling but won't drastically reduce the temperature.
If you look at the polls, my SZ idles at around 62°C (starts off around 58°C) and that was in about 20-22°C room temperature.
So unless you are sitting in a freezer you're not going to see great fluctuations due to room temp. (The fan might run at a higher speed in a warmer room though)
Now I know from a friend of mine that hist desktop NVidia (I think 6000 series) could go up to 127°C, I suppose its less for a laptop, but still should be around 100°C.
So idling at 58°C is no problem.

And the problem is not the temperature but the weak materials which cannot cope with the constant temperature fluctuations.

 

Ambient temperature can make a HUGE difference. It just depends on the differential we are talking about. If you are outdoors on a 94 degree day there is no way that you won't see a marked difference in operating temps of the machine as opposed to being indoors at 78 degrees.

You are correct though that the issue with the chips is the substrate not handling the CYCLES of heating and cooling. And I don't think it is minor fluctuations in temps either. It is in the wider swings like power off off to heavy gaming mode and back to off, that does the REAL damage.

Gary

 

Well, technically, if a material is prone to the thermal stress induced by the cycling, then it doesn't sit well with thermal stress experienced in a constant high temperature condition either. The fact is, your GPU is dying a little every time you use it. Cycling is something that nVidia goofed up and did not account for enough, but it doesn't really kill your GPU faster than sitting it at 100C in idle.

Having said that, there is no indication that this so-called manufacturer defect will cause your chip to operate in a higher idling temperature.