Defective Nvidia chipsets in your current Vaio?

Humidity as well I would expect - particularly for this issue.

15°-20° was a number thrown out in one of the other forums. The problem is you can easily cross that threshold if the GPU is downclocked (via power management software) and you suddenly switch to a GPU heavy application.

We've been focusing on temperature specifically but another concern is the voltage changes that occur when the chipset is managed by software.

It's still too early to tell if using the software actually accelerates the problem.

Edit:

Some of the models in HP's list actually use the earlier GeForce Go 7xxx (Sony's early SZ models used one of those models as well). Although it wasn't based on the G86M chipset it did cause enough problems for HP to settle the class action lawsuit in 2007. Engadget believes the problem may go back even further to the 6xxx models as well. I hope this isn't true.

Figuring out which NVIDIA GPUs are defective -- it's a lot

Updated first post with new information.

 

according to engadget all these mobile vid cards suffer from the problem, and Dell and HP have already started damage control.

What about the Vaio? I know I have the card in my SZ750.

Anyone?

 

I am concerned for my 8400GT in my FZ as the graphics card has already had over heating problems (it has been taken in already once under warranty). Sony is pretty slack when it comes to drivers, so I am not expecting anything any time soon.

 

Well I've got an SZ7 with the same card.. (8400GS), but as its an SZ I'm in a way fine, using the intel chipset most of the time.

You may want to look back a bit further, there was a thread about this already here:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=268277

 

No one has reported a defective nVidia card on a Sony right?

If this is correct it is a strong case for the better heat management of Sony. Especially Dell 1330 has made quite a bad impression in this area on me.

 

Nvidia admits there is a problem, hp and dell are encountering problems...indeed 8400s and 8600s are defective. So sony's heat management is good. BUT as a customer, I feel cheated that sony hasn't responded to this issue the way hp did and dell did. Sure the laptop is good now, and assuming that it last me 2 years, there is still something wrong with it.

We FZ users paid for the same price as the ones with laptops using an ATI chip; and they have peace of mind, we don't! I like my FZ a lot, but I am still worried that it could die on me anytime. So, an extended 2 year warranty by sony (or at least an announcement) would really help.

 

Look jetro you have every right to feel the way you do, but I think you are seeing this the wrong way.

I disagree. They are not defective. Some are more likely to fail under excessive heat. There's a difference. And this difference is important to the discussion.

Do you know what Dell did to respond? they just installed new bios that increases the fan speed. How would you like that? You get a lot more noise and your GPU might still fail.

Dell needs to respond because their heat management is problematic. Sony sees no need to respond. And why should they, show me one person that a broken Nvidia GPU in a Sony caused by this issue.

If you want to do something to prevent this (whether necessary or not) downclock your GPU when you're not needing it and undervolt your CPU to lower your overall temp.

 

Im not hearing issue's in regards with Video in FZ or Sz that has 8400s or 8600s

 

Just remember that most people use their SZ's on the Chipset.
I used my NVidia for maybe 2 weeks (not comnstantly) for games - (World in Conflict, Age of Empires 3, Anno 1701) - now they've become boring and I'm constantly on the chipset.
Some people might have never used the NVidia card except for the odd game, or odd system restore. So the SZs are a dodgy "measurement" with regard to heat management.

 

I am not sure that is correct at all. My understanding is there is a defect on virtually all of them relating to the substrate failing due to heating and cooling CYCLES, not due to high heat. So even if Sony's heat management is better (and I think it is) the issue would still be there, even with Sony laptops.

But having said that there appears to be no anecdotal evidence of the same sort of failure rates reported on HP and Dell machines. It may be that the better heat management on Sony's has DELAYED the problem. But if it is a heat/cool cycle issue, I think it is a matter of time before this occurs for Sony laptops as well.

Gary

 

hmm.. so, is the term "more likely to fail under excessive heat" NOT a defect VS a perfectly healthy ATI GPU, or a perfectly healthy nvdia 9 series that doesn't have that "likelihood of failure"?

I'm keeping close watch of the situation. I am well aware that dell's response is nothing but a bios update and that that doesn't really help, but they at least acknowledge the problem. HP's extended warranty is the better response and I believe sony should follow that line.

Also, from what I know, the problem is not just a tendency to fail under excessive heat but the capability of a material used in the chip to handle heat cycle (hot...cold...hot..cold). I believe no amount of heat management could solve that... although, a better heat management COULD help prolong the life the GPU, it wont make the problem go away.

Just FYI, I'm hanging on to the FZ because I liked it performance. BUT I just hope sony will make an announcement about the issue, going along the line of HP's (extended) warranty announcement would really give FZ (and other VAIO with nvidia 8 series) users some more peace of mind.

Also, I've nothing againts sony in making these statements, I've always been a sony fan from clie's to vaios to wega/bravias etc.. and they almost made me give up nikon/canon with their alpha dslr BUT what I said is what I feel about these issues with the recent vaio that I bought.... thats all.

 

Just wondering.
If I'm not mistaken the temperature rises or falls rather quickly, doesn't it?

If it does, a better heat management would allow for a slower heating up and if its well desingend also a slower cooling down.

I think I saw somewhere that the issue also lies with the expansion of the subastances used. So slower heating and cooling will reduce the difference in expansion, thsu reduce the effect of the weak materials used.

It would be noice to have "all out" information, rather than to speculate and assemble everything bit by bit.
But the moment NVidia goes public the American justice system will bankrupt the company... (Class action...)

 

You may have misread what I said. I did not say it was due to heat. I said the issues are more likely to show up in excessive heat.

 

This is not entirely true. The issue isn't that these cards are overheating (the result of the problem). The real issue is that the materials used in the manufacturing process are physically breaking apart. By any definition that is a manufacturer's defect. Nvidia has stated that the thermal system and/or the how the customer uses their notebook are factors that contribute to failure.

Users should understandably be upset; notebooks are power cycled more often than their desktop counterparts. They do use software to dynamically regulate the GPU's performance (and therefore temperature). Their battery life is reduced when the system fan kicks in earlier and remains on longer.

Moderators & OP:
We already have a thread that discusses this problem in more detail, lists affected chipsets and models, lists articles & sources (chronologically) and includes several email responses from Sony on the matter. I would recommend merging these threads.

Everyone else:
1. Email Sony. 2. Carefully monitor your temperature when under the Nvidia chipset. 3. Please participate in the temperature polls listed in my signature. There are more suggestions in the thread below; I'll leave it up to you to decide whether they're applicable to you.

Defective Nvidia chipsets in your current Vaio?

 

I don't think that it is a case of Sony having better heat management in the SZ. The thing is that there are a lot more Dell XPS M1330 sold than the Sony SZ.

Although, we haven't heard much about SZs having graphics problems, it may still come later on (possibly lots of them at once).

 

I don't know where you get the idea that I'm saying the issue is that these cards are overheating. You may want to read back what I said. I said the issues are more likely to show up in excessive heat.

By the above statement I get the idea that you're not frequenting the Dell forums. While it is true that Dell sells more 1330s than Sony SZs, Sony still sells thousands of SZz. And if people were having defective Nvidia chips, they would be showing up here.

The fact that Dell sells more than Sony is no valid explanation in my opinion. It does not explain the much higher ratio of Dell problems.

I don't believe Sony has installed any firmware or bios to let fans kick in sooner, Dell did though. And yes many Dell owners are upset about this and I think they are right.

And this is where we disagree. If a GPU is fully functioning and may continue to do for xx years I do not call it defective. If you want to do so that is up to you. The truth of the matter is that your Nvidia GPU may go defective. Something completely different then saying your GPU is defective.

What is happening here is that people are misquoting and quoting Engadget and Gizmodo rumors and speculation as if they are credible news sources. A mistake in my opinion.

I am sure many of you will disagree and that's ok, this is just my opinion.

I've merged the threads.

 

But isn't it that any defect caused through error by the manufacturer will be covered under warranty?
Now when these chips ship they are not defective, they work fine, as you said PhilFlow.
However, due to the material used, these chips will fail before their average life span.
Thus they were not able to do what they should.
This means that theoretically theses chips may be labelled defective from the very start, also if they work fine at the start.

 

No no. Not will fail, may fail.

If it was will fail it would be a completely different case.

 

It's not that I don't frequent Dell forums. It is in fact the opposite.

Although I cannot say the same for other SZ users, I personally use my SZ on the Intel chipset 85% of the time. The other 15% of the time I use is when I'm at home & plugged-in to a wall outlet. In this 15% of Nvidia graphics usage, I don't game at all. Just imagine that most of the other SZ users are like me, then it doesn't explain why we haven't seen a flood of problems for the Nvidia 8400 in SZs? :confused2:

 

In my opinion it doesn't, because surely they are some FZ or SZ owners that are hardcore gamers. Some of them might even be living in climates where it is constantly 30 degrees or more which would put extra stress on their chipsets.

And about Dell selling more 1330 than SZ.. I'm not sure about market shares in huge markets like Asia for example. It may be a different story. SZ has been on the market longer too.

 

...."may" go defective VS 'IS' defective. ok ok...i got it. but I am trying to understand, compared to a "perfectly" healthy ATI Radeon or a nvidia 9 series (which I now have doubts) that does not have a likelihood of failure, how is the nvdia 8400M 'NOT' defective.

From a customers perspective here... people with ATI Radeon can have peace of mind that their laptop GPU will be ok as ATI DID NOT announce that the chip has a 'likelihood of failure'. But we FZ users don't have that peace of mind. So, (sony thinks) that is fair?

 

The SZ is little use for gaming.
For about 2 weeks I played games on it (World in Conflict, Age of Empires 3, Anno 1701) now these did run fine, but still its the borderline of what the system can do.
Most people play very CPU/GPU intensive games that need more than the SZ has to offer. Oddly enough Empire Earth 2 didn't run well...
So most SZ users might use the NVidia card only for some fancy animations during a presentation.
Also, when I'm at home I use the Chipset rather than the NVidia card as I son't see a difference, but I will hear and feel one. The NVidia gets hotter that the Intel one and the fann will run a bit louder due to that.
Especially when your laptop will run for hours.

And if I remember correctly somebody else said in this forum also that he (I think it ewas he not she) uses the Chipset also because it keeps the laptop cooler.
Since these 2 weeks of playing games (which I now find boring, and I if I decide to lose at chess, the Intel Chipset is enough for Chessmaster 10th Edition) I have only had the NVidia chipset on when reinstalling the System from the recovery discs.

So a NVidia failure in an SZ is rather unlikely.

 

DetlevCM, I do agree with quite a few of your comments. I only use the Nvidia graphics on my SZ when I'm using my docking station hooked on to my external LCD monitor through DVI.

 

I doubt that Sony sells more SZ in the Asia market than the XPS M1330. One example. I bought my SZ791N when it was released on the first or second day & paid USD$2,499. The most high-end pre-configured model SZ79GN/C (it has only 3GB RAM installed, no WWAN & do not have the "weavy-pattern" LCD top-lid & so is much more equivalent to SZ770N - about USD$2,249.99 at release date) in Asia costs about USD$2,950.

Not only that. If you consider the average wages of people working in Asia, then a lot of them wouldn't even consider the SZ because a lot of them are not able to afford it... Another thing to note is that the SZ is not customizable in many of the Asian countries while with the Dell XPS M1330, you can do so & get a slower CPU to reduce cost...

This is why (in my opinion), I say that the XPS 1330 sold for a lot more units than the SZ do.

 

You may be right I don't know. Either way Dell and Sony have sold thousands of units with Nvidia chips all across the world.

 

I maintain that excessive heat is a result of this issue and not the primary cause.

What is excessive anyway? Does running a game on my Vaio cause excessive heat? If I'm not suppose to play games on my notebook shouldn't there be a disclaimer on the product that states: "This notebook may not be used to play games. If you do so it will void your warranty." What if an application I rely on for work makes specific use of the GPU? Should there also be a disclaimer that says "This notebook may note be used for xxx application. If you do so it will void your warranty." Pure Nonsense.

Excessive heat is the temperature beyond the tolerance of the physical parts in question - but that's not the issue here. It's the return of the parts to a colder state followed again by a stressed state, repeating this cycle. Those users playing a game (long periods at a stressed state) are less likely to be affected by this defect than users that quickly (and regularly) switch between states. (" customer use patterns") At this point the " system thermal management designs" enter the equation. Was the system's cooling solution able to keep the temperature within +/- degrees during the state switching? Failure to keep the temperature within range (at both the low and high ends of the spectrum) creates the ideal conditions for material degradation. Once this process starts it's irreversible; the highest threshold is reached quicker which only accelerates the vicious cycle until catastrophic failure is reached.

Dell, Apple, and HP have higher notebook sales than Sony. The manufacturers may expect a certain % failure rate in their products (for whatever reason). Nvidia has stated that depending on their thermal system and the (types of) use by consumers that rate will increase. Assuming that this wasn't an attempt to shift blame then one of the variable factors towards failure is the consumer. It's reasonable to expect to see more failures when there is a larger pool of users that is using the hardware.

Compounding this is that one of the most popular (Sony) models under suspicion (SZ) is not guaranteed to be running under the graphics chipset in question. It makes no sense to say "Well, 20% of Dell's XPS line has failed due to the 8400M. We should be seeing the same percentage of failures in the SZ." because you can't guarantee that the machine was in Speed mode all the time. It would be better (but by no means more accurate) to look instead at the failure rates in both the FZ and AR series.

No, you're correct. There's nothing in Sony's knowledgebase about this issue. I was referring to the two OEMS that have come forward to acknowledge the problem and publicly list their models. This is a physical hardware defect; it cannot be solved by a driver update. The temporary fix (bios update) was issued solely to reduce the number of replacements (and cost burden) on the OEMs until the user was out of warranty.

Is it reasonable to expect a person to only drive their car between the speeds of 20-40 miles per hour? Would consumers really consider this to be a fully functional car? Cars break down because their physical parts fail - NOT because it was driven too slow or too fast.

If a notebook starts to display graphic artifacts or fails to boot (or any of the other symptoms mentioned related to this issue) outside of the warranty period - what do you expect people to do? Your assuming years. What if the warranty is only 90 days? What if their notebook fails just after the first year? Chalk it up as the lifespan of the product? Buy a new one?

I expect the fan to fail. I expect the drive to fail. These are both affordable and easily replaced. I don't expect the motherboard to fail under it's own accord. Lightning, water, impact yes. Use on my desk, no.

Thanks for merging the threads!

 

I don't know why you keep insisting that I'm saying heat is the cause of this issue. I never said that.

Anyway, let's agree to disagree and call it a night.

 

I agree 100% It seems that people are way more tolerant about electronics and software then they would be for anyother consumer good that was build shotty.

 

Regarding the average wages of people working in Asia...

The wealth distribution of people living in Asia are vastly unbalanced. So that kinda renders the average wage thing useless. Most people would not afford a laptop, let alone the SZ/Z. But if they are rich, they wouldn't care about the price and just get whatever the best stuff there is.

Trush me... I know this...

 

Doesn't that answer why I think that more Dell XPS M1330 units are sold in comparison to the Sony SZ units (in Asia)? :confused2:

 

Not quite.
Jparity is speaking about "poor" and "rich", no middle class.

You, SPEEDwithJJ are assuming that there is a "middle class" for whom the SZ would be too expensive, but the Dell isn't.

I couldn't comment because I don't know the situation there in detail.

 

Yep asia there is really no middle class, if you're poor you can't afford a laptop anyways and if you were rich, it wouldn't matter too much if it was a little more expensive. Not sure which side I am taking though since it's hard to say which are selling better.

 

lol. It's all good.

Although I have to admit that the middle class there is growing.

 

Why do you all think I say "middle-class" when I just use the word "average?" :confused2:

Maybe I need to rephrase my statement. When I mentioned average, I am referring to the general public on the average & not solely on just the middle class.

 

So which country has a vastly balanced wealth distribution?

 

Just to mention a few...China, Vietnam, Thailand, India... Almost all of them except a couple well developed countries like Japan, South Korea, and Philippine.

 

sony products are selling outrageously expensive in Philippines and Thailand, so there aren't so my vaios sold in those countries. Acer is very popular because of lower prices so are some "generic ones". I don't know what's with the distributors of sony (esp. vaio and bravia) are in those countries but prices are selling at most 50% more than the prices here in the US. These are based on personal experience.

But we are going out of topic here guys. The simple fact is, nvdia announced a defective product in the geforce 8 series which the vaios are using (8400m and 8600M). I've been hearing arguments that they are really 'not defective' but rather 'may go defective' but really, i see no difference; according to nvidia, the chip in question has a high failure rate, so something is wrong there. Now, in response to this issue, hp and dell has issued statements to their consumers. I am wondering why sony hasn't come forward to address the issue. Sure my laptop is functioning now, but for how long? Again, 'high failure rate'... its a physical defect... there is uncertainty on how long it's gonna last, that's a problem. And to tell me to underclock the GPU just so the problem might be prevented just doesn't make sense... i bought a dedicated, powerful GPU so I could use it with its full power.

Lucky Hp users, at least they have 2 years of extended warranty... that makes things somewhat fair. I really think sony go along this line..

 

I have to agree with you on this & the worst thing is that graphics cards in latops are generally under-clocked when compared to equilvalent desktop counterparts because of heat issues. So to further under-clocked it.... Makes me wonder why we buy laptops with dedicated graphics cards in the first place... :confused2:

 

lol. You couldn't be more right.

I thought Dell didn't under clock theirs. I think instead they turned up the fan. They sent out a statement saying that you can send in your laptop if any problem occurs.

 

Does it affect the SZ 7? If I remember correctly, the SZ 7 has 8400MS.

 

whoa, thank god i found this thread
So i currently own a FE790, bought on september 2006 with the GeForce 7600.

Two weeks ago, while loading a game my screen just went black.. i couldnt alt+tab.. i couldnt do anything.

so i thought it was an error and restarted my laptop and tried to load the game again.. i found it weird.. so i just tried to restart my laptop but it wouldnt load vista.

After some time, i tried loading again, and vista's loading screen was full of stripes and with some weird pink squares floating around the screen. And if i tried to load with the "previous working configs" it would load vista, but with the same problem, or even worst, cause i couldnt even read the stuff, nor identify and figures.

So i sent the unit to a repair shop and they said they would have to try to resolder the GPU, and that most of the times it works. After a week or so of waiting, they called me and said there is no way they could repair and that my only solution was to replace the mobo.

So this morning i called sony and asked if they were following HP and Dell and providing any care for these issues, and unfortunately, they said they haven't acknowledged it and that if i wanted to repair it, i would have to send it in and pay $700 bucks for the repair.

This is ridiculous, as this is a 2 year old notebook which i am intending on replacing with a Z-series, but still, i payed $2k and i can't just leave it as a doorholder.

I think this is pretty ridiculous, we consumers are paying for a defected product and they don't even acknowledge their mistakes.

 

Just to add, I tried a Sony Centre today.
They don't know anything about the NVidia issue.

(And its not that I was wasting their time, I was the only customer keeping them occupied and I even spent a lot on headphones (44Pounds)...)

So we're basically in a dodgy position.

May I suggest though, that all the SZ users who can, should use their Chipset rather then their NVidia card unless the Chipset is to weak.

And if we're at it, using the Intel Chipset saves the environment too, it saves energy

 

Good suggestion if you you're no longer in warranty or don't wish to use your warranty.

If you're still in warranty and want to make sure your Nvidia is not defective it might be good to use it as much as possible. Play games all day. And turn up the heating a couple of degrees

 

But then if you try to kill it early and it dies just outside the warranty period, I think you'd be more angry than if it died of normal usage a couple of years later. So, a risky strategy, I think!

 

Very true, especially as up to now no Sonys except maybe one or two have failed...

 

yeah but since we have 2 grapics chips if the Nvidia does die atleast you can switch to the on boardchip til a solution presents itself. I doubt this will remain quite forever. some in california is bound to sue over this issue sooner or later. hahaha just a little humor. No offense offered.

 

One of the moderators in the (Sony) UK forums mentioned that a team in Japan is actively looking into it. That was posted mid-July. There have been no replies when asked how (of if) the customers (affected) would be notified. It would go without saying that you'd probably have to have registered your machine in order to be contacted.

From photos I've seen (from Dell & Apple users particularly) the motherboard does sustain some damage from the resulting heat. The nearby components (construction, placement) could make a huge difference in whether the computer can continue to function. It's pretty tight in there already. I'd like to think that the integrated graphics would still work but that's hardly consoling to users who based their purchase primarily because of the dedicated graphics.

 

Well all I can say is that I think Sony did make a move and acknowledged the problem by moving the Sony FW to the ATI graphics instead of the nVidia. ATI's looking strong now even before nVidia has a press conference about this problem.

 

Well, my Vaio is registered and they didn't inform me...

I think we're down to waiting.

And phaaam, a change in product sadly tells us very little.
Its also possible that Sony deemed NVidia to expensive, they couldn't fit it into the motherboard (size) or NVida couldn't supply them fast enough...
There are plenty of other possible reasons for this change.

Again, only Sony can tell why they did as they did.

 

Well Getting my Nvidia card upgraded from bestbuy just went out the window. I got this from gizmodo today:

Inquirer: Pretty Much Every Nvidia GeForce 8800, 9600 and 9800 Graphics Card Is Defective
Last month, the Inquirer made the shocking accusation that every Nvidia graphics card with the G84 and G86 chipsets were bad (every 8-series card up to the 8800 basically). Nvidia said that's crap, but the Inquirer said it was all a big cover up. Now the Inquirer is reporting that "four board partners are seeing G92 and G94 chips going bad in the field at high rates." That would mean all of the GeForce 8800 GT, GTS and GS desktop cards, the mobile 8800s, and most of the 9600 and 9800 series graphics cards are defective.

All summed up, the Inquirer is saying almost the entire run of 8 and 9-series GeForce cards are defective and "going bad in the field at high rates." More than that, they say that Nvidia will continue to cover it up because the cost of admitting the nature of the problem would be devastating, meaning we'll never know for sure. We'll just have to watch for anecdotes to pile up. We're really hoping they're wrong on this one—that's a lot of graphics cards, and if true, it could basically destroy Nvidia. [Inquirer - Thanks Jagslive!]