ViDock 4G for Light Peak (Z21) - POSSIBLE.

Go here https://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=89321949134&topic=17792#topic_top read and answer, they've already made the open letter.

I repeat, that's only one face of the PBC and as you can see, the cable with rx/tx and also power supply output for laptop is on the hidden side. So I continue to think that there's another TB controller on the hidden side or a small one on thi side. If it's an Eagle Ridge developement would be similar to TB. I wonder if it's like those used for Thunderbolt or if they're different (since we talki about optical fiber)

 

1) Graphics Card Power: ( 75 W | 225 W = 2 pcs 6 pin | 375 W = 2 pcs of 8 pin )
225w

2) What Notebook do you own:
well currently i'm own sony Z11 Carbon Premium Limited edtion, also Clevo D900F, MacbookPro 17" 2011 and incoming sony Z21

3) Purpose: ( Gaming | Photo/Video/Artwork | Office | Scientific )
Wow Factor : )


4) Modular I/O is useful ( Yes | No )
yes

5) Do you want to buy the ViDock PCB only or finished product ( Parts | Product )
doesn't matter as long as the price is not crazy for finished product.

btw i have 1 extra condition ViDock please develop it to be power notebook screen not external so i can take ViDock with me while i'm travelling

 

^ already posted on FB.

 

thanks brother

 

eagle ridge is one of the 2 thunderbolt controllers.

I thought that I emphasized that you cant see the controller and there are areas that you cant see.

 

That's your optical to copper adapter right there. Now the question is, does it have x4 2.0 pci-e or TB signals on the end of it. FInding if you are running muxless or mux HD6650M will provide clues. If it's muxed then start looking for a TB controller in there somewhere. If it's muxless, then they aren't transmitting DP/LVDS signals so are probably doing straight pci-e. If it's straight pci-e then could just work out the lane + signalling pinouts and wire it straight to bplus' PE4H which already has a x4 lane setup, giving a x4 1.0 (no 2.0 working solution as yet) Sony Z2 eGPU solution in weeks not months.

 

Sorry, didn't see it. My fault

Since the technology is maybe this one http://download.intel.com/pressroom...itePaper.pdf?iid=pr_smrelease_vPro_materials2, we would have a 25 Gb/s (12.5*2 channels) But I'm not sure that there's a TB controller at this point.

By the way how would it be possible to reach 4X 2.0 which requires 16 Gb/s X 2 direction when here we would have 12.5 Gb/s * 2 directions?

 

http://download.intel.com/pressroom...itePaper.pdf?iid=pr_smrelease_vPro_materials2 tells us

Sony's implementation has 2 fibres, each capable of 50Gbps. Maybe one is Displayport (10.2Gbps) and the other is x4 2.0 pci-e (20GT/s both directions = 40GT/s)?

 

^ My mistake. But why putting 2 cable when 1 was more then enough? And there's no display port in PMD...

By the way, you said that if the setup it's muxless, it means that there's no LP controller.. why? And why yes for muxed setup?

PS. thank for all you're teachin me

 

Right: source Intel's Photonics whitepaper

The likely the reason for two fibres would be to eliminate the need to mux the LCD traffic and the pci-e traffic - can just run them over two fibres instead. You can see that TB controller does that muxing and so is the problem in getting a timely solution due to Intel + Co giving no info about that TB controller to the public - no one knows what the pinouts for it are AND if whether or not it can accept straight pci-e such that a TB controller will be required on the eGPU board to do pci-e to TB conversion. More headaches if Intel aren't giving those chips to anyone other than Apple partners.

The other reason for two fibres is that 40GT/s is the bandwidth required for x4 2.0 bidirectional. That's not far from the 50Gbps max on a fibre. 10.2Gbps is required for DP.

So I'd guestimate that the Sony LP setup is

- x4 2.0 (40GT/s) pci-e traffic down one fibre
- DP (10.2GBps) to drive the internal LCD down the other fibre

Based on above theories: recipe to create a Sony Z2 LP eGPU solution

If the first is true, then it's simpler to create a Sony LP DIY eGPU than it is to make a TB one. It would go something like this:

(1) replicate the Sony LP cable identifying the pci-e and DP output copper pins. Can it be bought as a spare part from Intel or Sony for not much $$?

(2) route the pci-e pins to 4 mini HDMI cables. Then use those 4 mini HDMI cables to attach to a x4 capable DIY eGPU PE4H

(3) route the DP pins to mini DP connector from which cable could attach it to a eGPU's DP port. Then the eGPU can be used to drive the internal LCD.

How to find the pci-e/DP pinout of the Sony LP cable?

Sony aren't likely going to tell you so either need to probe them with some PCI-E analyzer, knowing what pins have what output OR get someone to hack their PMD, pull off the HD6650M chip with a BGA IR desolder and do DMM continuity tests back to the LP copper pins, matching them up against AMD's pinout for the HD6650M (if can get it?).

How could a Sony LP DIY eGPU be made?

If you knew the pci-e pinouts then it would be possible to take a current x4 capable PE4H, 4 mini HDMI cables that attach to it, strip the mHDMI cable ends and solder them onto those pins and you'd have a test Sony LP eGPU.

No Intel TB controller to get in the way of a timely solution.

 

^ thank you very much. Well, I'll update you when somebody will do muxed/muxless test and run GPU-Z to see how it's set (probably 4X 2.0 which is in line with performance calculation I made before)
( the worst part is ti obtain transmitter/receiver die)

PS. the problem, will be as always the cable.

 

This seems to be moving right along. I will have to start putting the money together for my Z2 so I'll have it so I can start experimenting with the DIY eGPU. Everything looks really good. I will be putting a GTX 590 in my Z2 eGPU enclosure. I don't have a lot of technical hardware knowledge, but I am sure I can help this effort in some way by buying and testing stuff.

 

^ thanks CC!! I've already asked in owner thread, we'll see if somebody will do something or we'll wait for you (since it seems that nobody with PMD is willing to try)

By the way, remember that in the next days there will be out some USB 3.0 -> PCI-E adapter with a maximum of 5 Gb/s. At the moment you're ViDock works as a 1X 1.0 which means 4 Gb/s

So in any case you'd obtain something equal.

 

Ok, so is there a reason why someone wouldn't want a 375W 2 x 8pin connection? I mean, are they not backwards compatible with lower power-consuming 6pin cards?

 

If they're 6+2 yes, if they're 8 pins it may be not.

 

I still find hard to believe that sony's implementation of lightpeak is going to have that kind of bandwidth, its only possible if they have dedicated the entire pcie to the pmd, and according to what I see from performance of the 6650m its more likely something around what apple users would get, which is still higher than what current egpu users have via express card

 

^ take a look at the other thread. Still, PCI-E is completely FREE. No dGpu to be used and other stuffs go to NorthBridge. So, they probably set PCI-E bus @ default, so 16X or at least @ 4X since it's a setting far below that Silicon Photnics Link technology can sustain.

 

The Z I want must be purchased from conics and it comes to $4,500! So give me a couple weeks to work it out.

 

^ O_O .... that's really high!

What would you put in there to get such a price? 512 GB 1080p i7 camera wifi3+3?

 

^Probably everything.

 

^ it's probably gold plated!

 

northbridge is integrated to the cpu, its the southbridge that deals with the pcie.

We must also remember that white paper was describing the tech, when intel demoed the thing it was using a 10gpbs bidirectional channel

here is a good article about it from anandtech

AnandTech - Intel Light Peak - Lighting up 10 Gbps links in 2011
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The questionnaire in the first page, if you crystal1988 would be so kind to post on the facebook page I would be indebted to you

1) Graphics Card Power: ( 75 W | 225 W = 2 pcs 6 pin | 375 W = 2 pcs of 8 pin )
375w
2) What Notebook do you own:
mbp 13
3) Purpose: ( Gaming | Photo/Video/Artwork | Office | Scientific )
all the above
4) Modular I/O is useful ( Yes | No )
Yes
5) Do you want to buy the ViDock PCB only or finished product ( Parts | Product )
parts and product, whichever comes better or cheaper

 

Every single option except for 512GB and the sheet battery. Oh yea and I didn't upgrade the OS either, since I will just clean install Ultimate on there. I figure if I want the sheet battery I can just buy one later. I had to get RAM and a 256GB SSD because it doesn't really look like there is an upgrade path for those parts. The only thing I don't like is that the WWAN is locked, I can just swap in an unlocked GOBI 3000 or figure out how to unlock it. Things that I think are awesome that you can't get anywhere else are the 3X3 card and the Japanese Keyboard (and I save $70 on the keyboard by getting the Japanese one).

Windows 7 Home Prem 64bit
Gold top, Brown inside
Blu-Ray Multi Drive in the Dock
Core i7-2620M[2.70GHz]
Display
13.1" 1920 x 1080 (Full HD 1080)
Memory (RAM)
8GB DDR3 RAM
SSD RAID (256GB total)
WiFi a/b/g/n MIMO 3x3
LTE / 3G / WWAN (locked, may never unlock)
FingerPrint Reader + TPM Chip
Web Camera
Yes, Internal (HD cam)
Keyboard Japanese with KANA and Back Light

 

Uff.. c'mon, it's only one of my tremendous mistakes XD Sorry.

Yeah, you're right, but it depends also on what Sony USED now. I mean.. in that case Intel probably used slower transmitter die. In one year things can change.
I say that cuz if the actual technology used by Sony is a 2x10 Gb/s speed... so a little more then a 2X 2.0 PCI-E... how is it possible to obtain such performance with PMD? And even being better in 3DMark06 against a 16X 2.0 6630M? Things would be clear at this point if somebody with PMD at least run GPU-Z under load to see PCI-E setting and video card usage of it.


By the way, don't worry. I'll post it immediately!

Here in Italy it costs 300$ less.. maybe in other nations price are more convenient .. if you know somebody who would send it to you..

 

check the other thread, but as I said, the bandwidth on such mid level cards are that important. lets take a look at some examples:

the gtx 460m is a good card, it comes with GDDR5 providing great bandwidth for the computation done with it. It takes a considerable lead over the gt 555m, about 20%, off course its all stock

However you wont expect the same performance of the NVS2000, they use the same chip, however since its coupled with DDR3 ECC buffered it gives the same performance as the gt 555m

Although when you are dealing with the gt 555m there are 4 different versions of it:

the 96 shaders version is the gt 425m/gt 435m/gt 525m/gt 540m/gt 550m and it becomes gt 555m when its coupled with the GDDR5

So higher bandwidth in those type of midrange cards are the limitation.

Now we get to some strange point, when enough is enough?

As you saw the mid range is limited by bandwidth, however higher end models are even more limited by it. Thus sony didnt need to put a high bandwidth cable (at least the theoretical 50gpbs to 100gbps per lane) they only needed (I guess) about x4 to x2

The 6750m in the mbp is only x8 and it performs like any other 6750m

The distribution on the mbp 15/17 is as follow

x4 - thunderbolt
x2 - wifi and bluetooth
x8 - gpu
x2 - free

 

For the amount of overhead that there is with Conics, you may also consider going on vacation in Japan and pick up your CTO over there (probably need it shipped to someone over there so you don't wait forever)... you'll probably end up paying more this way, but if the idea of going to Japan entices you, go for it.

 

take a look on what I wrote on the other thread.. even a 4350 feel the same losses of a HD 4870.

Uhm.. I don't find any other laptop with similar cpu with that video card so it's difficult to say.. anyway, a 8X 2.0 it gives a 5% loss avarage... little number.

 

$1,500 more than the US for the same options except the color and the 3x3 WiFi. To me there is no point in buying the Z2 unless I get the color I want. So... there it is.

You guys really need to understand just how much I don't need this computer. Honestly I would survive with just one huge 17" laptop, but I have four super small and light VAIOs. I just want what I want.

 

hijaaking the HD6650M's pci-e and DP pins in the PMD as a solution

I didn't want to mention this as a solution before, but perhaps someone may appreciate it.

Maybe the fastest way of doing a x4 eGPU for Sony Z2 owners would be to get a schematic of the HD6630M chip used by searching for "Whistler-LP" on other notebook schematics then

- identify the the 4 lanes (4 TX/RX lines per lane) + pci-e signalling

- identify the displayport lines

- remove the HD6650M and replace it with a BGA chip with wiring that simple reroutes those lines to 4 external mini HDMI connectors and one external mini DP connector.

Then attach a bplus PE4H by:

- connecting the 4 mini HDMI output via a mini HDMI cable to the PE4H

- route the desktop video card's DP connector the PMD DP connector

An enterprising Sony owner may want to offer a service of taking your PMD and adding x4 and DP external output ports to it instead. It would have a bpulus PE4H (DIY eGPU) piggybacked off to provide video function. When not connected to the PE4H it would provide all non video related functionality as before like USB 3.0/NIC/ODD.

 

Holy crap! would that work?
I know a solder jedi who could do that... but I don't quite understand it.
I'll sacrifice my PMD for that mission when I get it. I don't care about the PMD, I hate ATI crap.

 

Yes it would work if done to EM spec. It's fine work so needs special gear to remove the HD6650M and route the pci-e and DP tracks to external connectors for mating to a PE4H.

You'd need the HD6650M schematic (find it) to identify the pci-e and DP pins and the PE4H schematic (available here) so could match the lines. The PE4H gets it's own 3.3/5V/12V from external ATX PSU. Once it's all wired you'd get x4 1.0 out of it (10GT/s). bplus is now doing tests to provide pci-e 2.0 compliant cabling and once available would make the solution x4 2.0 (20GT/s) capable.

This would probably be the quickest way of getting a desktop eGPU working on a Sony Z2. It would also send a loud and clear message to Sony of what sort of PMD Z2 owners really want.

a global solution?

Once the inventory of parts was finalised and the steps involve to install them sorted for such a solution then they could be sent worldwide with owner's contracting the BGA removal/mounting to their local tech specialists. The owner could do the dremelling/jigsawing to to mount the external ports panel (4 mini HDMI and one mini DP) themselves. It's a doable project.

 

As Nando4 said in the eGPU experiences thread, you should avoid twin-gpu cards like a HD6990/GTX590 since they require 2x256MB PCIe space windows which might be difficult to accomodate.

And the best single GPU card is currently this one

 

I kind of assumed that the Dual GPU card would be OK when we did this with the Z2.

 

*** WE HAVE SCHEMATICS FOR A WHISTLER-PRO LAPTOP ***

MEGAUPLOAD - WhistlerPro Laptop Schematics

We're waiting to find in some way, schematics of Z21 to solve all problems (apart copying the cable XD)

 

WHISTLER-PRO=HD6650M. This schematic shows it's pinouts.

pg 22 of that schematic shows the HD6650M's pci-e pins for lanes 1-4 and pg 23 shows it's DP pins. The idea would be to match them to a PE4H. So would need (1) a BGA chip that would replace the HD6650M and provide leads that run to 4x mini HDMI connectors + 1 mini DP connector on a panel. The panel would be mounted on the side of the PMD. Then connect 4x mini HDMI cables b/w the panel to the PE4H and 1x mDP to DP cable that runs to the video card's DP port. The DP pins would require someone to do continuity testing to confirm which set are the ones used in the Z2.

Crystal1988 highlighted that such hacks to the PMD would not be desirable by all. In which case would need to get the PMD's LP cable from somewhere (another PMD) and identify the copper pins on it that could run the same lines out from.

 

I don't care if it is desirable or not, if it works... I know a guy with an infrared solder station who also knows how to use it. He did my Core2Duo in my UX

 

^ it's not desirable cuz a normal powerful DIY costs around 350€ ... but for those who DON'T have PMD (European, who already spend a lot more then other nation with PMD) would have to pay at least 700€ to get everything.

 

The idea of piggybacking a pci-e chip, like proposed here for the HD6650M, could also be done to some Thunderbolt product for Apple systems eg: a Thunderbolt raid controller, if the main chip's pci-e pinouts were known. That way could avoid all the licensing and NDA that Intel/Apple have tied up third party vendors with.

So there again the main pci-e chip could be lifted and the pci-e lines routed via 4 mini HDMI cables to a PE4H. In essence, the rest of the Thunderbolt 'product' chosen would simply do Thunderbolt to pci-e conversion for us which is what the 'hard to get doco on' TB controller does.

 

Crystal,

Could you post my inputs to FB - thanks.

1) Graphics Card Power: 225W would work for me.
2) What notebook? Right now struggling with a hoary old Lenovo X300. Looking to move 'uptown' to loaded Z2.
3) Purpose: Photo/Video; Office
4) Modular I/O useful: Yes.
5) ViDock PCB only, or finished product. Prefer finished product.

Thanks again.

 

^ done.

On FB we've just reached 30 people for ViDock LP developement. We need 20 more people.

 

I'm thinking about something to write to Sony, like a disappointment and proposal email. Since we're the biggest Vaio Z community (at least taking into account America, Europe, Oceania, Africa and half of Asia) and maybe the only one real community of Z, I want to expose our problems about the PMD of the new Z:

- a lot of us want a powerful GPU, not that crap of 6630M

- mac users will have in some month external dock for eGpu for sure, it means even gpu carda a LOT FASTER then 6630m, why not for us?

- PMD costs too much for what it gives

- a lot of us hate the fact that there's no Display Port or DVI port to get XQWGA resolution

- a lot of us won't change their own Vaio Z1 for Z2 beacuse they won't be able (at the moment at least) to use their own ViDock station for eGpu.

Now I'll write something in a good form and I'll let you read it. Then we'll decide if it's right to send it or not. ( I did something similar for an adapter from Sonnet Tech for Z2 and even if I sent email to technical support, they sent my email to engineers and they wrote me that they would study that So maybe we can do something..)

 

Does your count include those folks from your list near the top of this thread who are interested in LP but would prefer having weasels rip their flesh to joining FB?

 

Even to a non-techie who doesn't know a solder jedi and doesn't really care about graphics, hacking the PMD (which in the US is non-optional) is just too blipin' cool for words.

 

No... I don't know who are those who haven't posted on FB apart those 3 I posted for.

 

As long as tyou posted for me, you have my appreciation and gratitude. I would like to get an LP ViDock for audio and a nando4-hacked PMD for the graphics.

 

^ you're welcome Louche

As for me, I'd prefer a completely homemade ViDock..but it will be difficult to find the cable or create it (where to find transmitter/receiver dies?)..

 

Re-routing HD6650M x4 pci-e pins to a x4-capable PE4H

I've taken a snippet from the HD6650M and PE4H schematic, and highlighted the pins that would require routing to be able to create a x4 pci-e link between them. In addition the pci-e lane signals must have GND shields around them running to the Shield GND pins on the mini HDMI connector.

NOTE: this doesn't include the Displayport (DP) signals. We are still waiting for some basic tests like disabling the iGPU to see if the HD6650M works after that to confirm if it's muxed or muxless method to drive the internal LCD. If it's muxed then would require someone to do DMM continuity tests with the HD6650M lifted from the PMD to identify which DP set on pins (0-3) Sony are using. Then just need to mate that set to a mini Displayport (mDP) connector. mDP pinout is here. Refer to pg 23 of the HD6650M schematic for the DP signals.

So this idea would require the fabrication of a BGA interposer chip + wiring that is attached in place of the HD6650M and runs wiring to a panel of 4 mini HDMI and 1 mini Displayport connector to be attached on the side of the PMD. If only wanted to run an external LCD or use Optimus to drive the internal LCD then you'd need 35 wires running from the BGA interposer (4x8 + 3) to the panel of connectors. It would be ~47-52 wires if routing the DP signals as well..

 

As for DP, we're not sure, aren't we.. cuz we don't know if the screen goes directly with DP signal when PMD is docked (and to know it.. someone with AIDA 64 must take a look)..

************************************************************************************************************************

By the way, here is the letter/email I would like to post on FB Sony Page to push them to think about letting other companies creating eGPU boxes or creating one itself:

"Hi,

I'm Claudio Rizzini, waiting for my new Sony Vaio Z21.

I'm speaking in the name of Notebookreview Forum - Sony Vaio Z Community, the biggest community about your Z line.

This message encloses the disappointment from the large part of community, concerning new Power Media Dock, which is not included in Europe for example.

1) first of all you must know that, with previous Z1,a lot of us was (is) used to plug a ViDock from Village Tronic (or an homemade one) via Express Card obtaining an external dock with a desktop GPU, so we get an external GPU. In this way it's possible to obtain a more powerful solution spending less then Power Media Dock. These users don't want to buy new Z since PMD it's powerless and costs too much for what it gives. Even if it's small, it's always an additional piece on the go. Heavy gpu computing is likely to be done in an office/home place where there's no problem of dimension or weight (but the more the power, the better).

2) PMD in Europe is not included and European users are not willing to buy it not only because it's powerless but also because it costs too much for what it gives. In addition, prices between US market and Europe (for example) are too much different. Here an example:
In Italy Vaio Z with i5 2410m / 4 GB ddr / 128 GB ssd 2nd gen / 1600*900 pixels / Backlit keyboard and PMD (which is an optional here) -> 2143€ which is 3040$ with actual change, taking into account that in Italy VAT is included and it's 20%
In US the same product but WITH PMD comes at 1969$ and including VAT italian taxation, it's 2363$ (in US, VAT it's even lower). In Italy is nearly 680$ MORE EXPENSIVE. It doesn't make any sense.

3) We've already worked out that Sony's special connector for PMD it's an hybrid from USB 3.0 (because there are metallic contacts soldered on PCB) / Light Peak technology (which is former technology of Thunderbolt) / Silicon Photonics Link by Intel. We all know that Apple has an exclusive license from Intel for entire 2011 to use that Thunderbolt technology on laptops and we also know that thunderbolt enclosures for desktop gpu or other PCI-E board will come to the market in the next months, making possible for iMac/Macbook Pro/Macbook Air to have something like ViDock (where you can put your own desktop GPU) while Vaio Z21 cannot. In addition, Village Tronic is already developing adaptation of ViDock for Thunderbolt and Sonnet Tech has already announced a Thunderbolt/PCI-E enclosure. We also know that Sony's hybrid port it's likely to be faster then actual Thunderbolt implementation. So why will Apples users have the chance to get an eGPU while we cannot even if could do it with old Z? The main reason for your sells to our community has been the chance to have a powerful CPU in a light 13" laptop premium quality with the chance to connect an external GPU.

4) A lot of us is disappointed since there's no chance to use the laptop and the PMD to drive resolution over 1920x1080 on external monitors, practically we need WQXGA resolution . This would have been possible using Display Port or DVI on PMD, and it would have been not a problem if we would have still the chance to use our own eGPU through the hybrid port.

5) Some users who have already bought new Z (with PMD included as NON-OPTION) are willing to sell their own PMDs since they don't need them or they need something more powerful and such a PMD doesn't match their requirements.

That said, we propose you to let companies like Sonnet Tech or Village Tronic to create their external boxes/enclosures for eGPU compatible with your hybrid port using that Light Peak/Silicon Photonics Link technology or at least to create your own external box, letting us the complete free choice to put into it which desktop gpu we want. Just for information, we talk about very high end desktop GPU which can reach 300W and more, in some cases 3slots video cards.

Thanks for you attention,

Claudio Rizzini and Notebookreview Forum - Sony Vaio Z Community"

 

Crystal,

Could you post my inputs to FB - thanks.

1) Graphics Card Power: 375W.
2) What notebook? On a Z1. Moving towards a Z2 soon.
3) Purpose: Gaming; Photo/Video/Artwork
4) Modular I/O useful: Yes.
5) ViDock PCB only, or finished product: Finished product, preferably.

Thanks.

 

^ Done.