What do you guys think of the Z11 redesign?

It's still not getting through to some, is it. It's not how the bottom looks as such. It's that they actually styled it in the case of the Dell, as well as moved the stickers out of sight - i.e. attention to detail in design.

In product design, attention to details is pretty much everything for a successful product. Which is why Apple - despite their distinctly mediocre engineering capability in comparison to Sony or HP in comparable product niches, with Dell fast catching up - remains the most lauded make out there. It's not about how things look as such. It's about the attention to detail in design.

The Z's top is a competent, but rather lacklustre effort in design. But as soon as you move out of the areas that you may not look at or interact with every day, any pretence at attention to details completely falls apart.

Do I have to keep on highlighting design?

 

This may come as a shock to you, but I DO understand you. I simply disagree. For me - the only person I'm competent to speak for - caring about what the bottom of a laptop looks like or how it is designed aesthetically is just like criticizing a car because of the design of it's undercarriage. As long as the car does what I need it to do - without defect - that's all I care about. For a laptop, I care about how the parts I see and touch when I'm using it are designed and whether they function without defect (just like the car); the rest is just superfluous and superficial to me.

Maybe that makes me different from you - and many others on this forum - but I'm cool with that.

I'm not saying that you or anyone should be more like me and less like yourselves - not at all. However, you did ask me what my opinion was, and I have given it. Don't you think it a bit odd to ask for someone's opinion and then proceed to question their perceptive abilities ("It's still not getting through to some") and/or argue with them after they give you the opinion that you yourself requested?

 

I guess you can't have it all. Attention to details is Apple thing, cutting edge technology is Sony thing. Of course it would be great to have both, but it's better to have choice then Sony doing same thing as Apple or Apple doing same thing as Sony.

 

Even when they're essentially standing still? It's great having the do-it-all machine that pushed weight envelopes but that's what Sony's been doing pretty much all along. Lackofcheese makes a good point that others are catching up in terms of being able to push engineering envelopes - all at prices which is starting to make Sony look like a slightly bad joke: e.g. The later examples of last year's Timeline vs TT.

Design *is* a differentiator they have got to grasp. The TT didn't offer a sufficiently superior design experience to the equivalent Timeline, while the Acers didn't lag far behind in terms of actual performance - and for hundreds less. With the Z, a plate of aluminium really shouldn't be fooling anyone.

@lackofcheese, I shouldn't say "visual design" as design is essentially the device as a whole - function, form and feel. Note I'm still highlighting it for the benefit of others.

 

This sort of reminds me of a thread at an audiophile forum I check out. Someone there asked whether a certain pair of headphones were balanced. One replied that he thought they were mostly balanced - bass was good, midrange not so good, and highs were acceptable.

This was the wrong answer. When the original poster meant "balanced", he was asking about a specific technical aspect of the headphone - not about whether the sound from the headphone seemed "well balanced" tonally. The replier was right in his interpretation of the question, but ultimately did not answer the actual question.

I think the same thing could be said here. Vogelbung is asking about a specific characteristic of the laptop - its design, and whether its design language was consistently followed through on the laptop. Not whether you think it looks pleasing to your eyes or not.

You are right - no one can argue against your opinion. But they can argue on whether you are actually answering the original question. I think that's what Vogelbung is doing.

-Peter

 

interesting how some laud Apple's design.

I for one never take a second look at apple's products, be it their mba, desktops, iphones, itouch, or ipads.

 

You may not like the way they look. I'm not entirely enamoured of the fem-friendly look either. What it comes down to though once again is attention to detail in design.

 

Functionally, the Z is without peer until the Acer TimelineX is out, though, and when you say design as a whole, different people might have different weightings on different areas of design.

 

I think what I'm 'worried' about - as I've been a VAIO bloke since the line was released globally in about '97 - is that it is the same old thing, and it's actually getting worse because everyone else is moving ahead.

Back in '97, if you told me that I would be buying a Dell purely for its design, I'd have laughed. It may have taken ten years and the resurgence of Apple to get them to take notice, but they've started to rise to the challenge. But I don't see any change in the way the VAIO division is operating in relation to the rest of the industry, especially in terms of their approach to design - definitely in terms of the application of it to their ultraportable flagship.

Technical proficiency in terms of materials selection, manufacture process and engineering ability is something that now pretty much all Asian companies have access to, practically to Sony levels. Give it a few years, they will be at Sony levels. Where will Sony be then?

 

I think one of Sony's "trademarks" is in proprietary systems. Usually, this was done to lock a customer into their brand (memory sticks, UMDs, blu-ray). With the new Z, though, the proprietary SSDs are being used to maintain a competitive technical edge as well (very high speeds, relatively low cost, minimal space taken). I'm curious how much Sony invested in the engineering design of the new Z? I'm thinking it was quite a bit. Will other companies be as willing?

I agree that this isn't going to work long-term - I don't think it's feasible to rely on proprietary engineering solutions to maintain an edge. But, at least with the new Z, Sony (imho) has done it.

-Peter

 

The Vaio chief is also in charge of mobility. It's still my belief that the Z is the guinea pig for future mobile devices that will use the same small-form SSDs. Just like Apple, by closing the innards of the iPad (and the apps) to external fiddling, Sony can ignore cries for standardization ("When your device breaks, buy a new one! More $$ for me! ").

 

Last Z was very open...

- You could replace HDDs with SSDs easily
- You could swap the CPU for more powerful one

But the new Z is much more custom - CPU is soldered on the motherboard, so we can forget about user CPU upgrade. SSD is a custom-job, too...

The only user-upgradeable thing is memory. Or HDD if you choose the non-DVD model.

On the other hand... I think that the replaceable CPU on the old Z (and SZ) was an anomaly - Z is full-blown "ultra-portable" notebook, and these are known not to have PGA-socket CPUs anyway. This is more or less a norm for the entire industry when it comes to ultra-portable computers.

SSD is a different story - but I have to agree with Sony, cramming 4 standard 1.8" SSDs would consume much more space. Space that would probably be impossible to allocate if the feature set was to stay the same.

 

I'm actually not sure what your complaint is about the underside of the Z. What could they have done better?

 

A case of "if you have to ask..."

 

So your complaint is purely subjective, then?

If not, surely you are able to articulate your rationale to another person?

 

Nearly worked for Apple! Now they just simulate it with software. ;-)

The Japanese are not ones to put design over function. Look at Toyota (and I'm NOT talking about the recent issues). Just look at the overall designs - bland, common, functional. But certainly not cutting edge, artistic or pretty.

Sony's laptops tend to be the same. Amazing pieces of engineering, but you'll always know which side is up.

 

Well, not really, X505's top and bottom are the same... Scroll the flash to the back view and you will see.

http://www.vaio.sony.co.jp/Products/PCG-X505/feat4.html

 

It's not Sony as such I think. They can do amazing functional designs when they want to.

(I've also handily arrowed for Miyabi's benefit what real 'carbon fiber' from Sony looks like)

 

Since you are unwilling to elaborate further, I guess I shall.

I have some ideas about why you may think the bottom of the Z is badly designed. First, you may be distracted by the stickers. So lets take those out to get a better idea.



If you still don't think this is any good, perhaps you dislike the tapered edges and two-tone color scheme, and prefer the minimalism of the one-tone boxy design of the MacBooks and the Dell Precision. What you may not be aware of is that those aspects of the appearance of the underside is actually part of the design concept of the Vaio Z. The concept is called "double plate" and you can find out more about it in this video: http://www.sony-asia.com/article/387081/productcategory/it-pc-series-z

The underside is tapered and offset from the edges on purpose to accentuate the bottom plate that's formed by the palmrest. This gives the machine the appearance of being composed of two plates on top of each other when viewed from the side, and also gives the illusion of extreme thinness by allowing the bottom part to fade away. The two-tone color scheme of the underside is also a result of this concept, the plate and the cylinder uses a lighter color to stand out from the darker color of the rest of the bottom area. So in a sense, the appearance of the machine when viewed from the bottom is partly sacrificed to achieve a desired effect when viewed from the sides. But it would be irrational to argue that this sacrifice doesn't make sense. So instead of going for the same boxy minimalism as the MacBook and Precision, the Z's designers went in a different direction. You may prefer the boxy look but that's a personal preference and doesn't mean that the Z is any less well-designed, and certainly doesn't mean that the engineers took over with the design of the bottom part and the designers took their hands off.

If the above aren't the issues you've identified, then perhaps it's the extra screws and vents that the bottom of the Z has compared to the Precision you showed. But if this is what you are talking about, then you are talking about form over function taken to extremes...

 

Whatever Sony marketing has on their site to promote the design aspects of the notebook, it doesn't change the fact that it still looks a mess.

And let's *not* take the stickers out of the picture. As it's actually how you receive it. Dell thought through the issue of stickers when re-thinking design of their notebook: The resulting cleaner aspect is part of the design of the M6500.

I wonder when I'll start not needing to highlight design.

 

It doesn't "look like a mess" as you say because they didn't pay any attention to the design of that part. It looks that way because they had other design goals in mind and sacrificed the appearance of the bottom to some extent to achieve those design goals. Why are you ignoring this fact?

 

I'm a proud owner of the original Z. I would love to upgrade to the new Z except:

peel-off docking connector (Seriously Sony? Seriously?)
Plastic palmrest (come-on, that's why I love my original Z!)
Audio ports on the front (I am obsessed with my headphones. I use my Z on my laps a lot, having the audio jack on the front will just destroy my headphone wires.)

I am in no way discredit the new Z, in fact, it seems to be a little wonder machine, I do love the new reinforced chassis, in which the original Z is a little weak at.

@ Vogelbung, which headphone is that in the picture? Looks wicked! Hope it sounds as well as it looks.
Judging from the removable cable, it must be one of the studio monitors?

@ Chirality, take a look at the underside of the original Z when you have time, will ya?

 

I like to think of myself as having appreciation for design, for the aesthetics. I really enjoy products that serve form as well as they serve function and have paid more for what strikes me as good design.

But we're talking about the bottom of the laptop here!! If the best thing about the laptop's design is the bottom, the designer's priorities are screwed up. This is the surface that not visible for 98% of the product's lifespan!!

I think you may have a point worth making, but you've got to get a better example of good/bad design than the least important aspect of a laptop.

 

Meh, I peeled off the yellow "this laptop could be uncomfortable on your lap" warning sticker, but have so far left the rest. I do think the white CTO sticker should have been reverse printed, and am not sure why the manufacture date is printed twice (although I guess one is for the base kit in Japan, and the second for the CTO assembly).

But ignoring the stickers... I like the FUNCTIONALITY of the way the bottom is designed. For example, I can get a secure and comfortable grip with the laptop vertically in one hand by holding the battery bulge around the spine (on my previous SZ I would generally do this by gripping the front edge of the laptop, but that squishes the weakest part of the screen). Also, due to the way the battery hinges in I don't have to worry about the force applied causing the battery to disconnect and fall out.

Also with the way the front lip is designed, I can very easily pick the laptop up with 3 fingers from an awkward angle when it's sitting on a table. This is no easy task on the SZ - there's a lip at the front, but you can't get enough of your fingers under and I often get a couple false starts where you grip the laptop, try to lift, it slips and drops down.

Also with the plastic palmrest, I'm liking it a lot more than the aluminum palmrest on my SZ. The aluminum tends to transfer hard drive vibration directly into my wrists (admittedly not a potential problem with the Z, but there could be fan/ODD vibration). The front left corner on the SZ's plamrest also gets quite warm due to transfer of heat from the hard drive. And the whole thing starts to feel kind of damp/clammy once you've been using it for a couple of hours. So far the plastic on the Z has remained perfectly cool and comfortable.

 

Unless you are a member of Z's design team, you don't know for a fact what actually transpired behind closed door. Vogelbung certainly never said it's one way or the other, nor has he denied the possibility that it's an engineering desicision. What he says is that the end result does not look like a lot of effort was putting into it, compared to the old VAIO.

Case in point, X505 has the same bottom as the top. Nobody will think that's a simple coincidence or purely an engineering decision. It looks like something designed by a visual designer and is speced (and runs) like an engineering marvel. I don't think anyone will have the same feeling when they look at the new Z's bottom when it is placed beside an X505 -- again, I'm not (nor is Vogelbung) saying that there is a viable design solution for Z to achieve the engineering function while preserving the visual design, but when you look at X505 it should really make you wonder if the Z's bottom truly is the best and the only way to meet the engineering requirement.

Frankly, Vogelbung is not the only long time Sony VAIO user that has this type of sentiment/rant that I've seen. At the same time, my observation is that more people share along the line of your thoughts, that there is actually no other way to achieve the desired engineering requirement and that this shortcoming is sbjective and is not as important.

At any rate, I have not seen anyone decides to go for a M11x or wait for 3820T because of the design of Z's bottom -- all I have seen are because of GPU, price, and other functional issue like the pitch of the fan -- so it's hard to say it's a bad business decision to focus more on functional excellence. I guess time will tell whether this is really a good strategy for the long run. Panasonic and ThinkPad certainly survived quite well without bothering about the looks.

 

Yeah, I think I am pretty anal about aesthetics but my complaint was about the plastic palmrest and perhaps the battery bulge. Interesting to see there are people who are more picky about design than me! =)

 

Saying it does not look like a lot of effort was putting into it is just as speculative as what I am saying, that there was indeed a lot of effort put into it and this is what they came up with. This is an argument that neither of us can win.

I think Vogelbung is certainly saying that there is a better design solution for the Z's bottom. He is pretty insistent that the bottom is a case of design by engineers while the real designers didn't bother with that part. I'm arguing that the designers actually did put a lot of thought into that area, and what they came up with is a design that creates a side-view effect at the expensive of the bottom-view. Neither of us can say for certain if our version is indeed the story behind the Z's design, and we are both entitled to our opinions. But I would like to put forward the idea that it is not certain that the appearance of the Z's bottom is a result of bad design.

Interesting for you to bring up the X505. The new Z, I think, takes design cues from the X505 in many ways. Not just the obvious cylinder, but also the double plate concept can be seen as something that aims at the slimness of the X505's profile. The Z of course is a much more feature-packed machine, it cannot achieve the X505's slimness in reality, but it tries to do so in appearance. This I think explains at least in part the appearance of the Z's underside. To accentuate the lower-plate and highlight its slimness, the rest of the underside is recessed and tapered. As a result, plastic protrudes from the tapered edge at points in order to support ports, which should not be tapered. The design concept of the double plate, combined with the engineering requirement to not have ports tapered to the same extent as the casing, is mostly responsible for the overall shape of the underside of the Z. Engineering decisions factor into the final product, sure, but so does any piece of industrial design. What matters is that the choices made is driven by a design concept and executed to provides the desired visual effect, rather than given wholly to engineering decisions as Vogelbung seems to suggest. This is my interpretation, of course, but interpretations are not without worth when appraising such works.

 

All of the terminology around the concept of "design" is rather poorly defined, it seems. I guess what Vogelbung has been referring to when he says "design" is, quite specifically, "industrial design", because the former term is far too general.
The distinction, then, would be between "design engineering" and "industrial design" - both are types of design, but the former tends toward applied science, while the latter tends toward applied art; yet there is overlap between the two.

 

Dude, while i don't have issues with the plastic, vents, and stickers. the battery bulge on the bottom is plain ugly. I understand that its probably for heat reasons but normally sony integrates this part better. Really, it looks like they were lazy this time... just slapped it on there similar to the palm rest.. I really hope they release the new version of the t-series soon and they take care more in designing it..

No fair, you have the picture angled in a way so you can't see the battery bulge..

 

I think the battery bulge is actually a pretty cool design, actually. Let us assume, not unreasonably, that there's a need to keep the back of the machine elevated to prevent overheating. Instead of feet, which would look somewhat jarring, the battery bulge achieves this purpose with a much more natural look, that integrates well with the contours of the rest of the machine.

 

Did you notice in that picture the screen would touch the ground if the battery didn't elevate. Maybe I am over thinking it .

 

Funny: reading this I had to check and found out that I NEVER noticed that sticker! Yet, it is there and was probably there on my previous Z as well. I guess too much information becomes distraction (and I hate all those lawsuit-prevention-mandated silly warning labels)

I'm actually liking it more than the one on my previous generation Z for a simple reason: there's no hard angle at the front, which looked cool on the previous Z but ended up leaving a mark on my previous LCD screen This one being both softer (plastic) AND rounded should not create such a problem (or maybe it is wishful thinking but I want to believe it ALSO has function beyond just form )

 

While I find the new Z rather stunning, there are several conspicuous lapses for me:
1) The lid and inside face is sleek and handsome (especially with the black carbon fiber option), but I too think it appears as if there was barely an effort made in designing the entire lower half (sides, bottom and bottom front), with a profile that thickens towards the hinge and ports that are brutishly and unattractively integrated into the chassis; not dissimilar to most any other Windows laptop
2) The wrist rest is, shockingly, plastic. Some have voiced that it's possibly to compensate for heat, but surely there are better alternatives. For such a premium priced product, you now have to worry about future discoloration of the plastic wrist rest from extended use or its being scratched too easily by a watch or even in the simple process of pealing off the many stickers. And it simply doesn't look or feel as good as if it had been of the same material as the rest of the body.
3) The battery bulges out. If it was necessitated by a engineering imperative, it's rounded shape still conflicts with the angular lines of the rest of the notebook.
4) Along with other posters, I agree the bottom looks like a wretched mess. Busy and inelegant, unlike much of the rest of the Z.
5) The headphone port is at the front. So when the AC and speakers are plugged in at your desk, you have wires flying out from 2 sides of the laptop. The MacBooks and HP Envy smartly places all ports on the left and right respectively, where all wires can keep their mess to one side and if an external mouse is used, it won't obstruct desk space, if you're right handed (for the MacBooks).

 

I don't want to spend my time debating about the bottom of a laptop that i'm most likely not going to see. Could it be made out of a different material possibly. If the vents help with the heat then they need to be there.

I do agree though that on the palmrests Sony use too many stickers. Getting them of can be tricky. I've yet to remove some of the marks that the stickers left on my palmrests of my TT.

Also, some of this discussion is subjective but some people argue like their opinion is fact. That is not really conducive to discussion.

I agree as well that the palmrests are not the best design point about this laptop. Looking at them more and more i've got used to it a bit. There may well be a reason why Sony opted for that material.

I also agree about the location of the headphone port, i prefer them on the sides but it is not a killer. It has been like this with some other notebooks that i've owned.

The Z is in a class of its own and if it is not right for you may be look for something else.

On a note about Apple laptops. I like the previous design but i'm not really as keen on the current line up.

 

The one thing I do agree on is it would be nice if the headphone/microphone ports were elsewhere.

But honestly, look at the sides of the laptop and tell me where you would put them. About the only available space is the Kensington lock, and it's right by the vent so it's probably not possible to route a deep connector right there. Would you remove one of the USB ports? I know a lot of people are very happy to see 3 versus 2. Would you nix the ExpressCard slot? That removes many expansion options. Would you cut off the VGA port? It's not really needed since you have HDMI, but this is Sony's premium business laptop and businesses still need VGA for projector use.

By the way, that makes me notice something - what's the tiny hole to the left of the headphone jack?

 

Microphone?

 

Hmm, guess you're right. Had always assumed it would be somewhere up by the camera. Kind of explains why my talking into the camera wasn't helping speech recognition...

 

Hey, here's something else to complain about. What's up with the model numbering monkeys at Sony? So far my Z has the following model numbers:

Lid: VPCZ1
Rear dark label: PCG-31112L
Rear CTO label: VPC-Z1190S
BIOS: VPCZ119GS

Way to be consistant!

 

There's subjective, and there's arguing the wrong thing germane to the thread. The first two pages were largely spent in refutations over the functional merits of the Z, and it's still largely going on - even among people who have now apparently grasped what the thread is about, by posting views which only expose the styled portions of the machine - or press shots. No opinion is fact.

You may say "Well it's not visible in normal use" but the problem is that everything that is to me wrong about the Z from a design point of view comes from the "designers" thinking like that too. It's highly debatable, and probably ultimately false, to say actually designing the entire machine would somehow compromise the function of the machine. As I said, more attention to detail would solve a lot of the design issues even if you stuck to the same construction method, component packaging and materials.

It's in a class of it's own for sure in terms of what it does and how it does it - that is not in dispute, but it doesn't change the fact that it's still something of a mess from a design standpoint.

The bottom is probably the most egregious point, and there's nothing to say that function was the only route to controlling its look in design. Take the Dell Studio 15 for example: A budget notebook, and look how they have at least had a crack at designing the rear to make it as clean looking as possible within the confines of budget / layout. The little things do matter, even if you as a layman don't understand it or notice it consciously.

 

I agree with Vogelbung - from the purely design standpoint, new Z is bit of a mess...

But, on the other hand, I also do appreciate that Sony is different in their priorities from a certain vendor in Cupertino. For example, Sony would certainly not design the thermal management system on the very edge of the specified platform thermal limits, just so it looks "cooler" from the outside.

These purely design-driven decisions are known in history to be responsible for device overheating and premature failures.

 

One issue is that for some is that you may not be able to divorce design from other aspects about the Z.

Anyway, i think the underside looks pretty much average.

Like i said there may or may not be a reason why Sony elected to use those materials (and again also the design placements of vents)for the bottom chassis that some people appear to have issue with. We just don't know for sure.

 

Absolutely agree on the 'taking form over function too far' aspect. But once again, that's not really the full point.

@Jparity: It's a Sony Qualia 010. Probably the worst headphone I've ever owned in terms of 'what could have been vs what was actually delivered' aspect, but still - a work of technological art.

 

Which is funny, considering that there's a correlation between being sinister and choosing a Mac -- IIRC, a left-handed person is more than twice as likely to own a Mac as a right-handed person is.

 

OK. I wasn't directed towards me, but that's a tad rude.

From my perspective, the most glaring design anomaly is the battery bulge. It's almost as if they set out to make the shell as thin as possible and after all that was done, came to the battery and (long pause) said, "Uh...the battery won't fit into the tiny leftover space. Well, I guess we'll just paste it onto this thin frame and it'll have to stick out."

Now, it DOES have function by way of increasing/aiding airflow under the laptop, but appears to be an afterthought.

Of course, I don't really care about it, but in talking about design, that's one thing I noted.

 

Well, another problem is the display - without the battery "bulge", display angle adjustment would be problematic and prone to scratching of the outer surface.

I see no other solution except to make the laptop more thick, which I guess would be a problem for someone else then

 

What you're saying does make sense to me, and even if it wasn't in the mind of the Sony designers, it certainly is de-facto true that the design from the side creates and incredibly thin appearance.

 

I went to look at the new Z for the purpose of buying it. It's an engineering mavel as many have stated but to me it looks like a hodge-podge of pieces rather than one uniform, all parts flowing together beauty. I was struck in particular by how cheap the plastic looked because it was placed, next to, or part of the brushed aluminum. If I was a road warrior I'd have bought it no matter what. It's a great machine. But as a show piece? No ready for prime time imo.

 

Sorry but the words in the sticker are killing me, it's like saying "this car isn't really for driving" They should have called it a notebook...

 

Stickers in general are a problem especially when they come as thick and fast as the Sony's, but still to beat as the ultimate useless disclaimer IMO is the Toshiba M200 tablet - same yellow sticker about not placing next to bare skin, exactly where you'd put your wrist if holding it as a tablet.

 

Easy solution. Take a Hair dryer, blow straight on the sticker but not too close to melt your plamrest. when the plamrest feel Hot, use your finger nails to slowly peel out and continue using ur hairdryer. Done.

I used this method to remove any sticker.