S-XPS 1645 AC Power Throttle Issue Investigation

They will destroy them (Dell) reputation. The buyers will never forget it...

 

Well, Dell Technical support has offered to replace my 1645 with 1647 including the exact same configuration. I had a i7-720, 4GB RAM, Blu-ray burner combo, Hi-def audio, etc.. Any comments on them offereing a replacement to my heating problem? I was going to do it then restore my system using Acronis. I'll be darned if I'm reloading all my software after 2 months of use. I was told I would have the new system in under 4 weeks (yea right) with fully paid exchange packaging. And for my troubles...NOTHING..... Please let me know your thoughts before I commit.

 

This is a bit off-topic, but I ordered two Dells recently. Received the Studio 15 for my son, still waiting for my SXPS 16.

Anyway, I read in here somewhere about modding the ATI drivers to get them current. I did it on my son's machine and the 3DMark06 score went up by over 20% over the stock video driver that came with the system. Damn, I plan to do the same thing to my SXPS if and when Dell ever deigns to send it to me!

JimmyB

 

Did they offer an explanation? I mean what would be the difference between the 1647 and the 1645? IF the config is the same I would go for the newer system.

 

you in US? or Canada ?

 

The results are in...

Test 1: Running FurMark, Prime95, and IntelBurnTest with ThrottleStop disabled on a 150w AC adapter for 10 minutes on "High Performance" with brightness set to max:


Test 1: Running FurMark, Prime95, and IntelBurnTest with ThrottleStop enabled on a 150w AC adapter for 10 minutes on "High Performance" with brightness set to max:


Test 2: Running Prime95 and IntelBurnTest with ThrottleStop enabled on a 150w AC adapter for 10 minutes on "High Performance" with brightness set to max:


Having FurMark running almost instantly changes the multiplier to 7. I did do a quick 5 minute test with all three (FurMark, Prime95, and IntelBurnTest) running with the multiplier checked though (on "High Performance" with brightness set to max)..


After these tests, the 150w adapter was quite warm, but definitely not at the same level of uncomfortably hot that the 90w was at.

 

I realize my question regarding the 1647 vs 1645 may be a little off topic. Sorry for that, but this thread started out talking about the 1645 thermal problems, which is what my 1645 suffers from. I just wanted to offer you Dell's response to my inquiry. I'm in the US by the way. I will probably swap them and then post the differences I find. I'm guessing bigger power supply and the motherboard to support it. For those of you testing...does anyone have a 1647? Thanks again

 

"The system has not been qualified for a 130Watt adapter,"

They're not supposed to. You can order one from the website if you really want to. I only say that as a matter of fact, and will not comment further on this particular matter.

 

I wonder if you could ask the engineering team a question for us. Ask them what the process was that they went through to measure the power requirements for this laptop and decide on what adapter it needs. I only ask this because it doesn't take much to see that 90 watts is nowhere even close to enough power to let this machine reach it's full capabilities. I mean, if we can figure it out, then what's wrong with the engineers? I mean they are supposed to have degrees in this and know this stuff better than we do...

 

Hi, I really appreciate that you took the time to do all of these tests. Do these results show that the fix is effective in solving the problem?

Thank you!

 

Chris,
I doubt Bill will comment on it, but as a engineer in a field that deals with consumer electronics, there is alot of time that goes into a product qualification. In my industry there are set tests that have to be run, and to do so you have to pick what you think will be the final product design. These validations can take months to complete, as they are often durability runs that look for effects on the system. These tests also have to have enough samples for statistical relavence. Failures can send you back to start the test all over, with the suitable fix, and usually other tests will need to be rerun on related tests. Sometimes of these fixes involve a software/firmware change, as that limits the effect on hardware and the tests that would need to be done. This all costs time and money.

Given the technology cycle in the computer industry, Dell's engineers have a lot to do and very little time to redo work. I imagine they skipped some steps based on past practices and limited risks (this is my guess, I don't have insider info). It cost them this time. My guess Dell intentionally throttle to 90W, betting it would not be noticeable to the end user, thereby insuring that 90W supply was sufficient for there system. Unfortunately, they didn't catch it in their tests, or did not look at the test results close enough to see the problem. I think they likely have a good idea of the problem, the next issue is how to fix it in the most cost effective way for dell, yet still satisfies their customer. (at the end of the day, they do need to make money to pay for future and current development)

Hopefully whatever solution they come up will be good enough that people don't return laptops on them. I'm still waiting to see if mine goes back, I know if it's not addressed it will be, and I will not be returning as a customer (this is my second Dell PC with systematic issues, but last time they resolved it satisfactorily after waiting for a fix).

For now, I will give them a fair chance to fix it, and show me that it's worth coming back again. I may be a little too sympathetic, since I know what it's like to be on the other end of issues like these. They may take a little more time than I want, but I think they will get to the right decision in the end.

(Bill B@dell, you can still comment, or nod your head yes or no)

 

Yes, with the more powerful adapter and the throttle overrides it's running at 100%. And this is pretty much worse case, playing a game is unlikely to stress the system so much as running these test programs. The other issue is someone mentioned that the GPU started throttling as the system heated up, is that going to cause problems for us? Should run GPU-Z to get the GPU clock measurement during the Furmark+primes test. I don't think we can override the GPU clock speed throttling, at least not as easily as the CPU (which is publically documented).

 

Throttling also occurs on 1747. Posting from iPhone so will be short.

Furmark + prime causes a multiplier of 9.

Kill a watt shows 90w

using only prime CPU runs normally. Uses 80-90w

tested on ac only not on battery

no clock modulation apparent though I'm not sure the version of real temp is the one that has that feature included. Note to unlclewebb. Need to make it more obvious if modulation isn't applied else I can't assume I'm using the latest software

 

I'm replying to my own thread. I found the difference in part. This is Dell's solution to power problems. By offering me a lower resolution screen...??
HD+ Widescreen 15.6 inch WLED LCD (1600x900) W/2.0 MP, XPS 1647
Specifications - Monitor

My original setup is 15.6 inch Wide Screen 16:9 1080p Full HD WLED LCD, W/2.0 MP, XPS 1645This is full 1920 x 1080.

Would the 1647 have a lower power draw and thus less heat from the supply?

 

Yeah I was looking at a 1747 thread, apparently they have CPUs blowing up though, so we're pretty lucky over here.

 

Dell wanted to capture my laptop back during my transaction over the 130watt power supply. I told them to build their own system because they all would exhibit the problem. I said unless they were going to be sending me a check for several hundred dollars, or my new laptop had the same specs but blu-ray and SSD then they wern't going to get any cooperation from me on that.

I asked them why I should have to go through ANY hassel to help them with their research when all these systems have the issue, and he basicly said "I'll send you the power adapter" after that.

 

Hey Unclewebb, I had an idea that I figured would be worth posting here to see if others felt the same way:

ThrottleStop PREMIUM (ooooh, ahhh). It would surely take some additional work on you're part, but I would absolutly pay $30-50 for a version of throttlestop that would:
1) Stop my throttle issues
2) Monitor my temperatures
3) Have an option to activate and deactivate various profiles based on launching a certain game, or changing to different power profiles.
4) Have some sort of log or chart indicating the ups and downs of our multiplier, modulations, and various things that impact our performance.

Payday was today, Expect a christmas present from me soon when I get off work (and explain to my wife why I'm sending "some guy" money over paypal lol)

 

jakertberry: Nice testing. One user asked if ThrottleStop works and your test does a great job to illustrate that yes it does work and more importantly, just how severe this throttling can reduce performance. Admittedly, your test is a worst case scenario but Clock Modulation and multiplier throttling can bring one of these powerful laptops to its knees. I think quite a few of the previous generation Core 2 laptops had similar issues besides the Latitude E6x00 family.

Your first screen shot has RealTemp showing a Clock Modulation reading of 25%. This isn't an exact number, it's more like an approximation by Intel. Depending on the default multiplier, the actual amount of performance will vary slightly from this theoretical number. Combine that with a multiplier that has been throttled down to the minimum 7 instead of 12 and you end up with a performance laptop that is performing at (7/12) X (1/4) = 14.6% which is equivalent to an effective speed of 233 MHz. WOW, I used to have a Pentium II that was rated at that speed but at least I could overclock it significantly and it wouldn't throttle like a son of a b!tch.

I had a good look at the fine print on the Dell website but nowhere does it mention that your new super computer might end up performing like a retro computer if you work it hard.

NoFightNoWin: Let's see now, Dell lets your computer run at 14.6% of its potential and with the help of ThrottleStop you get to use 100% of its potential, 100% of the time. That represents a 585% improvement in performance. No wonder the feedback about this tool has been so positive.

Zlog: If Dell continues to sit on their hands and pretend they don't understand what's going on, then I intend to continue development of ThrottleStop based on user requests. Any donations big or small will help keep my motivated. Easily selectable user profiles is on the things to do list.

Edit: One of the big problems with the throttling Latitude E6x00 debacle was not just the severe throttling but also the problem that even after the CPU returned to idle, it would still take 10 or 15 minutes for the CPU to return to full power. In your testing, has Dell made any improvements to this part of their algorithm? The moment you stop loading your CPU, Clock Modulation should be turned off immediately and the multiplier should also return to its full value immediately. One second longer than that is already too long. 10 to 15 minutes later is a sign of engineers that got their degree by ordering it out of a comic book.

One last thing, someone with a Kill-a-Watt should do some gaming and adjust the multiplier lower to see what sort of multi would be necessary to keep within the 90 watt power level so users could try using their computer with Clock Modulation disabled without worrying about damaging one of these power adapters.

 

I just took the 6GB and Windows 7 Ultimate and ran, lol!

Fine, there, I said it. They weren't particularly excited about me mentioning the upgrades, but, it's out there. I'll have to change my signature in January when it comes in, anyways. And don't worry, I basically have go through the whole order cycle again to get it.

But, like Zlog said, I'm going through a "hassel" to help them.

But...it will be a beech in the arse (yeah, I know you're imaging that picture now) to load allllll of my data back onto the new one.

~Ibrahim~

P.S. I've found "data" to be a sufficient euphemism for Office 2007, Firefox, and all my games.

 

So just spend 1.5 hours on the phone with a very nice dell representative that actually seemed to be pissed off dell hadn't come up with a solution.

But all he could offer me was 1) keep the system or 2) return the system....
obviously after having waited almost 3 months to receive this one, option 2 wasn't really an option at all.

He seemed to be unaware of unclewebb's program which resolved the issue and didn't even try to bs me on the 130watt adapter damaging the computer but instead tried to tell me that people were experiencing more issues with the 130w adapter than the 90w.....

so I tried to see if they were "capturing" any systems, which he said they were not confused: ) but that I will receive a call back on the 24th about the issue. Conveniently, 2 days after my 21day return window ends....

Will dell ever actually fix this issue? Or do you think they will just continue to bs everyone?

So far the nice approach hasn't worked....do I really need to get mean?

sorry for my rant....I know it is not much of a rant....

 

may i suggest a program such as clonezilla or equivalent. and just clone your haddrive from one to the other. Ive used it many times, and already upgraded mine to a 320gb hd from the 240gb and was flawless. They actually put in a 320gb for my next order i was surprised. Anyways ill be using the same utility to transfer stuff over and be identical. takes about 30min and its like nothing changed

 

windows 7 ultimate isnt that great... unless you speak like 40 different languages fluenly and need FBI type data protection. That space can be saved. but if your going from home premium then you get professionals ability to run XP programs and some other stuff too. 6GB? shoulda went for the 8 or got the 256gb SSD. now thats an upgrade worth getting.

Anyways i was wondering how you dropped the bomb and how to ease the question of... can i have an upgrade because this laptop doesnt work the way you wanted it to work and if u give me something to chew on i will stop bugging u type deal.

 

wow if dell keeps this up they will be the next GM. without the mutimillion dollar bailout.

no one is going to want to drive a expensive truck when a low class minivan could do the exact same stuff.
no one is going to want to buy a expensive laptop when a low class notebook could do the exact same stuff.

 

I'm telling you man, ughhh I'm using Ultimate and they want me to download like 2GB's worth of language packs.....not gonna happen.

I don't think we should all be trying to milk DELL for free stuff lol or "upgrades"..........wait...........wait....nvm I mean this is HIGHLY inconveniencing and these aren't 500$ laptops...ugh...

Dell....I am disappoint

 

Ultimate is good if you need to join a domain at work and also want media center and all that.

 

no.. professional offers domains and media center is included in home premium.

 

Really good comparison table (scroll down for the table):

Windows 7 Editions @ Wikipedia

 

well starter is free... enterprise is not what were are here for and is basically ultumate with multiple registry keys and home basic is not offered by dell. Home premium, professional and ultumate are the only choices for upgrade unless you want to buy a basic seperately after it comes with a premium. so professional has domain management as well as XP mode. ultimate has lots of languages and super security thingy. ultimate isnt really nessisary and professional is for users who want backwards compatibility with older software that will not be updated to suit vista/7. But this is not a tread for windows 7 so lets end it here.

Do you think they will comply when i ask them to fork over a 256GB and 8GB ram? hmm a man can only dream.

 

could someone please advise as to which of these adapters is the right one to purchase - It's Dell UK website; i would really appreciate it.
http://accessories.euro.dell.com/sn...k=anav&nf=31399~0~152437&navla=31399~0~152437

Or would this one be better
http://accessories.euro.dell.com/sn...&s=dhs&cs=ukdhs1&sku=450-13434&mfgpid=1931908

Thanks

 

The 210w one won't work with the XPS16 (the bios won't let it charge anything).
As of the 3 others, it's up to you. 130w is enough and slimer than the 150w. The 150w adapter will charge faster and run cooler.

 

thank you very much.

 

Bill, you are still talking in circles. Your sentences are vague on this subject, perhaps intentionally. Are you saying that Dell's position is that the 130w adapter will damage the MB or merely that the 130w adapter is not the one usually used with this system?

 

Yes, that is why I went with Ultimate, i.e., logging into a domain at the office. I know the one right below Ultimate will do that too, but it was only twenty bucks for the upgrade.

 

I think he was clear in his latest posts. He's saying that this system was not specifically approved for use with the 130W adapter. He's not saying it will damage the system, or that it won't damage the system. He's saying that Dell has not approved that combination.

It could be that Dell engineers simply did not anticipate anyone using a 130W adapter with this system, so that combination was not tested. As such, they don't now want to blindly say that people should go ahead and use this combination, without Dell testing to make sure it's okay.

 

Like they tested the 1645 with the 90W?

 

I'm beginning to wonder what the testing process is like...

*plugs in 90W*
*turns on laptop*
IT TURNS ON!!!!!! Lets get these things on the production line boys!

 

If you have so little confidence in Dell, why do you buy their products? This thread could potentially be useful, but filling it with repeated Dell bashing is not useful to anyone.

 

You absolutly don't understand. We were confident, it's why we bought dell. It's a huge deception for everyone who bought this machine and the little hope we still have is waiting for a fix... This tread is extremely useful, and bashing dell will probably make them move theyre *ss to fix it. It's one of the biggest power of the consumer to speak when we are not satisfacted of a product. Why would we say " hum... my computer is twice as slow as it should be, it's ok i'm happy with that"....

 

Its just the way things go, no ones going to be happy with dell til there is an official fix. Even after the fix its not going to be forgotten, but somewhat humorous that a huge corperation like dell let something like this slip. It is a pretty huge mistake, even if there was a hole in the design process or oversight, that someone a long the line or dell engineer should of said hmm this probably isnt right.

It is rather odd that the performance issues where almost instantly noted by people a few days after receiving their laptop. But yet a engineers that supposedly re-designed and tested this thing didnt notice? I mean really the statement it turned on lets ship it, is probably somewhat accurate

 

About the upgrades:

Let's calm down now. I was approached for a capture. Meaning they take my system. But they also have to give me a new system. And, if you look now, you can't even order an XPS 1645 with 4GB of RAM, at least on the H&HO US site. Sure, I could've asked for 8GB, but let's be serious. If I needed 8GB, I would've bought it in the beginning. 6GB is absolutely superfluous for my needs and 8GB is just wasteful. But, hey, it's an upgrade and I'm sure they would've gotten me an identical system if possible. But, they are nice (even if they had to be) and I appreciate that wholly.

@image idea

Yeah, I thought about that. But, technically they'll have to use the laptop when they get it and I didn't know how images affected Windows' keys and what-not, so I thought whatever, I'll just re-do it. And if I did an image, I'd still have 7 Pro. I'm already saving programs to my jump drive for easy transfer when I get the machine.

Still no emails, but it's the weekend, so it's to be expected.

 

This forum is great, and this thread is an example. Dell has marketing and lawyers; at least consumers have each other. I think as long as the "bashing" is related to Dell's glacial reaction to this problem, it seems appropriate.

Just look at any other i7 laptop--most of them are shipping with 120-150w power supplies. How can Dell's hot machine run on so much less?

 

I understand quite well. The valuable posts here, which describe detailed testing and document the problem, will be very helpful to achieving a resolution with Dell. The endless drone of complaints, accusations and bashing are not helpful at all. Worse, because they constitute the majority of posts here, they will dissuade any Dell rep. from reading through this thread simply because there are way too many pages and most posts are not useful at all.

Strategic complaints, with well-reasoned points and suitable testing evidence, are an excellent way to get Dell to respond to this issue. All the other noise is useless and distracts from the valuable info.

 

The squeakiest wheel gets oiled first.

But, yeah, talking with Bill, he tells me that summary posts with relevant information are exactly what he needs.

But how do we do that now? I guess we could just hard-link the most important posts to the first post?

~Ibrahim~

 

Have I missed the post that states/estimates how many consumers are affected by this issue?

Darn, the specs on this machine seem perfect for my video editing and game playing uses. (I do a lot of location video for law firms in Florida.) Even if I don't bump the ceiling as others here have, I'd be concerned about the long term effects on the electronics if the power supply doesn't match up.

Thanks for all the info!

 

Except that many companies think that discussion forums like these are filled with nuts and losers who make ridiculous, unfounded assertions. The more people post useless rants in this thread, the more it appears to confirm those impressions, causing companies to ignore such forums.

Precisely my point. The situation will benefit from those good posts, not from the other noise.

I don't know. The problem is that such people don't learn, as they feel that they have a right to be heard and that their every post is valuable. They won't stop posting the noise.

I'm a mod in other forums. It is possible to pin certain posts to the top, but of course now someone would have to go through this huge thread to find those valuable posts.

 

Here toronto, In his own words, all he needs now is volume and "SENTIMENT"
And heres the meaning of that word:
"An attitude, thought, or judgment prompted by feeling"

 

I don't think anyone in this thread hates Dell, so it's why we all bought the 1645's. All I'm saying is this isn't "bob's computers" that we all bought from its a huge corporation. We expect solid products to be coming from them. AND that being said their are still dell Agents who have no idea about this problem. How long is it going to take for the information to percolate through the organization?

So,Don't hate dell. Just Expected a lot more from them.

 

Hi, I've been reading this forum ever since I started playing World of Warcraft on my new notebook and was less than thrilled about the fact that my 2 year old computer was outperforming it by leaps and bounds.

I "was" noticing that even with the battery, performance was less than what I would expect for the specs I have. For instance, I'm getting 30fps on my desktop in the most graphics intensive portions of the game. Even on battery power I was getting about 22fps. I should be ripping a hole in time and space with my specs.

Windows gave my laptop an experience rating of 6.9 (hdd was the one that dragged everything down) compared to my desktop that has 5.3 (cpu and gpu were the lowest here).

My desktop left my notebook in the dust with every game I could compare (I went on a game rampage after seeing my results on WoW).

With the power supply (I was given a 3E 90w as well) the performance was so bad that just about every game I tried to run was a slideshow.

Wait... there's more!

I got into an online chat with dell about the poor performance. I suggested that they at least send me a 130w based on the posts I've been reading.

The immediate suggestion was to have him take over the computer and install new radeon drivers as well as a new bios. Typical robot course of action.

Anyways, I watched, biting my nails as the bios was being flashed. clicked OK when it asked me to allow the service rep to reboot my computer.

Then to my horror, the laptop rebooted and remained with a white screen.

About 4 minutes later, I got a small blue screen that said in all caps something to the effect of POWER_STATE_FAILURE.

They called me when they got not response from my computer. I told them about the error and I was told to go through a couple steps. I had to pull out the battery just to reboot. Then was told to push the power button and then press "D". Nothing happened. just illuminated keys. Then the rep asked me to tell her if there were any blinking LEDs on the keyboard that would indicate an error code. nothing.

She then told me to hook up to an external monitor which I did and then to power up and press "Fn". Still nothing.

So... I'm told a technician will be by on Monday to replace my motherboard and LCD screen.

I asked them why they flashed my computer with a bios that was obviously buggy. I was told that it wasn't related to the bios flash. could have fooled me! despite the slow performance running games the notebook was running "fine" until the bios flash.

Please don't flame me because this question is most likely stupid... Is it possible that the bios they flashed was meant to failtest my hardware?

Anyways. I'm sad. And despite the fact that they will be replacing my mobo and screen I'm worried that I'll be right back where I started. Slow gameplay and an underpowered AC adapter.

Such sorrow...

....
hmm.. my sig didn't show up, which had my specs:
Studio XPS 1645
RGBLED 16"
i7-820QM w/ 8G 1333
Mobility 4670 w/ 1G
500G hdd @ 7.2k

...
another edit:
I should mention that my computer was delivered two days ago.

 

I think I am going to return this laptop. The power issue is so obvious and annoying when playing 3D game. The cpu run significantly slower on power adapter. And it never charge battery when I am playing game. So I basically have to charge the laptop when not playing for a couple hours, then use it on battery for only 1 hour gaming.

Anyone have experience returning this laptop due to power issue? Should I call tech support first or call return department directly?

 

What I did after all of this stuff went down is tell them that if the problem is not resolved next week I want to return the laptop and get my money back.

This whole thing is a shame really. I have an XPS desktop (core 2 duo 6600 / geForce 8800gtx and 8G ram) that has been running solid since day one. This was the basis of my notebook purchase. My notebook should be running circles around my desktop. <cry>