*Official* nVidia GTX 10xx Series notebook discussion thread

'BGA filth is disposable'... I've had four BGA (BGA GPU, but rPGA CPU) laptops, and every one of them have lasted at least three years. It's all in how well one takes care of his/her things... not the intrinsic 'disposability' of an item.

As @Galm17 has said rightly, I see so much hate for BGA systems (not unwarranted, of course) but it seems everyone here who's bought a high-performance system is fighting a losing battle here. For better or for worse, the P6 series of Clevo turns out to be its most popular (at least, when I asked the reseller in my country). Why? The DTRs are just bloody expensive. Few people, if at all, buy them when they might as well buy a top-end desktop.

Everyone would rather pay $1500 or so less than a P750DM, and simply make the notebook in question last as long as possible, by accepting lower settings as time goes by. When I first got my notebook, I could almost max out every game I played. Now, Witcher 3 and RotTR have to be run at 768p for a decent 45+ FPS. Today's top-end hardware will possibly be relevant even three-quarters of a decade from now. I've seen plenty of people with 8800 GTXs, who just upgraded their desktops.

Maybe we should found a new notebook company and make our own notebooks:

 

This is the official notebook discussion thread. Everyone should be allowed to give their honest opinion about their preferred tech. Why should anything be censored, when the posts only describes hardware?

 

Why does Kool Aid drinkers link to Barnes and Noble?

Not being open to change is literally never a positive. Ever. You can't truly understand an argument unless you are willing to acknowledge both sides as having valid points. Blindly ignoring it is foolish.

I don't understand how you can be so self-centered. The vast majority of people only need the amount of power present in an ultrabook. They are thin, portable, and convenient. People like these things. Most would be appalled if all laptops switched to MXM and unsoldered components. Everything would be big, unwieldy, and heavy.

You missed my U.S. citizen thing completely it seems. What I was implying is that the U.S. was founded around compromise, not that no other country should matter unless they agree with you.

I never said anything about censorship, I was saying he should try and speak like an adult to get people to take him seriously. His current posts were tiring users.

 

If he was serious he would be out there getting his word out on some news sites or something I dunno what, but not on some back alley website saying rhetoric to an established user base who have already heard the message many of times now.

 

Unless we could change whole motherboard on laptops, whole socketed vs BGA argument is pretty much meaningless.

 

It must be possible to have an opposite opinion on preferred tech than what others like / want in a technology forum.

 

People, let's be fair with everyone:




You can keep BGA and drink your vitriol while thinking that you've done something while they profit over you and you lose the power to do anything.

Or you can wake up and realise the state we're in and that we need to start a movement and be a part of the resisting force.

Either way, BGA has it's usage, no one is against that, but dudes! 4K$ laptops need LGA. Period. If you buy an 1000$ Laptop you surely would want LGA, but could live either way.

A P775 6700k + 1080 costs ~2200EUR, Not 4000. Not even 3000.

 

That's the point: You can change the motherboard on Clevos and a few other LGAs, but you need to change the whole motherboard + GPU + CPU for any component with BGA..

 

I disagree. Change is only good when it is positive. I have listened to and understand the arguments in favor of BGA. I reject what I do not agree with. I disagree with the lack of options. It is a convenient and abused cliche to say people that resist change are the problem, and that only occurs when the change is viewed as a positive by its proponents.

I will never want a BGA turdbook. I use derogatory adjectives because of the lack of options. That's what this is all about. The lack of options is partially, potentially in large part, driven by consumer ignorance. Look no further than the massive Predator 21X. A machine I would like, had it not been castrated. This is unacceptable. It was completely RUINED by BGA. And, it's not cheap. It's a super-expensive overpriced castrated turdbook that looks fantastic on the outside. Tell me how that is a good thing?

Those that want to have thin and light BGA notebooks have plenty of options. They are happy with compromise, so God bless them. I am happy they are happy. Please don't expect me to be happy when I don't want that. Turn the tables for a minute. Put yourself in the place of a thin and light fanboy, which should be easy since it appears that is where you fit. What if there were no options except big and heavy machines with sockets and slots? Would you be a happy camper? I don't think so. See my point?

Thank God for Clevo and their willingness to go against the flow. If they ever stop, I will still not accept the change and embrace turdbooks because I have no use for them. The lack of acceptable options will signal a time for exodus, not surrender or treaty.

 

And remember the silicon lottery. If you have a very good silicon... Either cpu/ gpu or if you are very lucky.. both!! You never know what you get on Ebay or similar places if you need new hardware aka new motherboard.

 

This is what your not understanding. I'm not against your argument. I have in my sig a GT60 that I upgraded the gpu on. I love LGA. Lack of options is the enemy. We are on the same side of this argument. I'm saying the way your going about it is not helping! Post all you want on this thread, no one will care! The way to keep LGA is to get the machines to sell! Recommend them to users considering between some AW BGA thing vs a Clevo. I do this all the time. That's what makes an impact. When the P870DM3 outsells the Acer or GT80, that'll help LGA. Options though does include bga. You never sound like you even want it to exist. I'm glad it exists because it gives us slimmer form factors. What I don't want is for only it to exist.

Please try and understand that I'm not against you, I'm trying to tell you that you can go about this in a more effective way. No laptop company is going to look at your posts and think, "You know what, your right!" Sales figures determines what is released.

And yeah, thank goodness for Clevo (and @Prema).

 

I am talking about CPUs only, and upgradeability in general. Intel changes sockets every couple of years. Socketed CPUs won't give much benefits unless you bench and you would need to get a new system anyways for meaningful upgrade.

 

CPUs are mostly stagnating anyway. A 6700k isn't a mind blowing improvement over most desktop i7s. A 2600k is still a solid cpu if properly OCed. GPU MXM modules are much more important, losing them would be far worse. I'd rather we get soldered desktop cpus instead of socketed mobile ones.

 

People looking for ways to spend money are here. The media outlets are run my shills that only publish what they think is popular, and most of them are totally ignorant consumers when it comes to high performance computers. I suspect the owners of Notebook Review would not appreciate being called a back alley web site.

That's a very narrow view that reflects a lack of understanding. What you are saying is false if you have a broader view and a clear understanding of the de-evolution of notebooks. Unfortunately, we live in a Facebook society dominated by Walmart shoppers... and, the rain falls on the just and the unjust.

It has been a common practice of many notebook enthusiasts to buy the lowest cost CPU and replace it with a mobile Extreme CPU, obtained through an aftermarket venue, for as much as $1,000 less than buying it new as part of the original package. Part of the problem I and others like me are dealing with is people that seriously lack knowledge and experience having thought processes that are flawed or based on misinformation. Using an aftermarket Extreme CPU upgrade, it is easy to outperform new systems for as many as three generations of Intel CPU releases. This applies to desktop processors to some extent as well. You get what you pay for, and getting something that lasts and fully unlocked, that can be overclocked and tuned, is more affordable in the long run rather than changing computers like socks and underwear.

It would be idiotic to have to buy a new motherboard for every upgrade on a desktop PC. I am flabbergasted that people think making notebooks exactly that way is OK, but it's not OK for desktops. I fail to see any logic in that. BGA is a disposable design that ends up costing more in the long run, not less. On top of all that, the components are weaker on day one. So, you never truly realize the best performance available, even momentarily, because everything is gimped from the factory.

Now you're talking in a way that makes sense. But, I say that you should not accept either one. The more people that refuse to accept either one, the better. OEMs will not build garbage if enough people flat-out refuse to give them any money for it.

 

What's the difference between a socket [email protected]/4.8 GHz vs [email protected] GHz? So there isn't any difference in real workflow?

 

Yeah, pretty much. Ability to change GPUs are far more important. Even if you get socketed skylake platform, only upgrade path would be 7700k and that wouldn't give much benefits other than slightly better scores on benches. Then Cannonlake comes and you still gotta get new system lol.

Why are you comparing it to 6700Hq? 6820HK would be better comparison. even [email protected]~4.8Ghz, what benefit would it have over 6820hk even at stock other than nicer bench scores. on GPU bound scenarios, it becomes almost irrelevant.

 

There's clearly a difference here. What's the difference between a 4700MQ and HQ when both are properly cooled. What's the difference in workflow? I'd take the MQ if given a choice all day, but MQ vs HQ both have their own compromises. An HQ will fit in a thinner laptop, while the thicker MQ equipped laptops give you increased flexibility and usually more OC freedom.

Your kinda wrong here, I can tell the difference between a 3.3 and 4.5 Ghz quad core in real life. I get what your trying to say though. More like what i said above I think?

 

I would also like to add the resell laptop part market is a luxury that does not exist in some countries. With import taxes on overseas components that god forbid are faulty, and you may not be able to return back.

 

Joking aside...

I do want an LGA for the more power I can get from it, I really need it. Me. The one who pays for it. Just let me voice my preference over what I buy.

Advicing people to buy over 1000$ laptops with BGA is just bad practice if you have good knowledge of what this implies.

Socketed will not solve all problems and mostly comes with problems with it's own, but having the option is much cleaner than being locked with what they force us on us.

Don't forget that it's a capitalist market, they need to go after customers, it's customers fault for being non informed and always buying bad tech for all of this. Let's learn and inform ourselves. Let's stop paying over 1000$ for ULV and i5 limited CPUs, let's stop paying apple for their next device that is worse than it's predecessor, let's stop supporting windows spying on us, let's decide for once that we can live in a better world.

To be on thread and stop being off thread, we cannot expect laptops sporting GTX 1080 to be BGA and to just be okay with it. Because the chip is hot, an MXM module is easier to replace than the entire laptop. Not to mention that most companies don't even sport GTX 1080 anymore.

I'll have everyone know that Romanian market still sells Asus single GTX 980 Liquid thingy for 6250$. And they don't even bother telling people that GTX 1080 exists, since the only Clevo seller is small and very few know what a truly good laptop means.

I know people who paid ~2000 EUR on Mac laptops while a P775 is ~2000 Eur. Let this sink in. They wanted a gaming laptop and went for MACs....

 

"on GPU bound scenarios". I admit I kinda exaggerated when i said 6820hk stock, but at 3.9 ghz and beyond, it would be hard to tell the difference.

 

But... You do have to buy another motherboard every other cpu upgrade on desktop. An intel socket gets ~2 gens then switches...

I was talking about beyond just gaming.

 

Please excuse me for being a bit thick but I am somewhat out of my league in here.

So I bought this a little while ago from the rather nice guy htwingnut that did the review.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...gtx-980m-64gb-ram-review-by-htwingnut.783411/

I have to have a laptop and cant do the desktop thing as I am always traveling. I want to buy either the Oculus or the Hive.

Is the a graphic card coming out I can put straight in this laptop to enable that?

 

It would have been interesting to read various forum threads if desktops had a soldered 6820BGA as best option!! This thread would look like a little boy in comparison.

 

But, you don't need to upgrade if you buy the best CPU. If you go cheap, you're right. Going with top end K and X CPU will outperform consumer junk CPUs for multiple generations. I am using the same rationale you did with the 2600K, and it is valid. An upgrade is only an upgrade when it gives you more performance. Newer is not a good reason to spend money. People that use that excuse for BGA CPUs are ignorant because it is only applicable to mainstream consumer junk CPUs.

 

When we purchase CPU's on laptops, we aim for the best. If you purchase the best desktop CPU available, you won't need to upgrade it for more than 2 generations because it is far more powerful to begin with. The 6950X is a grand example of this. Alienware used to charge $1000 for the 4940MX.* If BGA weren't a thing, there would still be Extreme Edition mobile CPU's.

K-series chips are not meant to last more than 2-3 years. They exist primarily to close the gap for budget gamers and enthusiasts.

*There were upgradeable Extreme Edition CPU's in laptops (e.g. 3940XM).

 

well, give some examples what 6700k would have decisive advantage over 6820hk on applications other than gaming and benching.

 

Yep I agree with both of you. I see users who upgrade cpus to always have the best, so that's the mindset I was using. I miss extreme edition mobile cpus, but hopefully full desktop will replace them soon as thermal requirements drop.

 

It would be nice to see an X99 chipset in laptops one day.

 

Hi Arran. I have a similar machine in my signature, a generation older than yours but same product other than CPU and chipset.

A single GTX 980M running stock is not going to handle VR well at all. You will need to buy a notebook with desktop 980 or better to handle that task gracefully. Now, you can overclock/overvolt a single 980M far enough to handle VR well enough, but the heat and stress will not be a good trade-off.

 

Maybe if Clevo decides to make 21" Laptop of their own, it would be possible lol.

 

Compiling programs, 3D rendering, modeling, video encoding, compression, and data mining.

I forget, the layout of the MXM 1070 made this not possible still right? I know the MSI GT62 has an MXM 1070 but the layout isn't compatible correct? MXM being uncompatible between generations is almost as bad as not having it imo, P870 owners got so screwed by that.

 

.shudders. Until Xtreme is same thermals as consumer ugno. If not as is even in chassis like 21 X.... Throttling. Throttling everywhere.

Though unless I dreamt it I swore while rare there are Xeon equipped laptops...ohyes....lenovo is one memorable one

Sent from my ZTE A2017U

 

Oh, I know they have the ability to do so... Whether or not they are willing to invest in it, that's the question.

Perhaps introduce a new variant: P970DM (or something) that is 18.4". The additional space in a large 18.4" laptop would allow them to cool it as well.

 

Well, not exactly decisive is it? I would rather get x99 platform with at least 8 cores if those were my needs.

 

Thanks for the advice. Time for a new laptop then. Anyone want to buy mine?.

 

Can't really do that on a laptop. But yeah its decisive, when I do large compiling there are differences in the minutes between my 3720qm and my friends 4790k for the same task.

 

I don't know why, but part of me still wants to give Alienware another chance. I was far too attached to my M18x R2.

 

You can have a overclocked 8 core on it.

 

Everything.

What do you do with a 6700K or 6820HK to not feel the more power? I mean, light internet browsing? In absolutely everything that one does, one would feel more power. Think about graphic rendering, audio rendering, movie rendering, 3D rendering, 2D rendering, 2D animation, all types of algorithms, game development, gaming, benchmarking.

I can't find a single thing where a 6700K would not have an impact on workflow. I mean... you don't buy those to write words and excels or view mails / social media. You can totally do this on them, but you won't need the power. You want to buy such a computer when you tend to open over 150 tabs in chrome to do data analysis with complex algorithms, there's a ton of things you need a stronger CPU for.

And now that Optimus isn't in the way, the GPU is also able to process all that it can, which I find absolutely lovely!

 

Yes. I had one with 4960X and @Johnksss@iBUYPOWER had one with Xeon E5-1680 v2. The underhanded change in Pascal MXM PCB size effectively destroyed the product viability. It was awesome otherwise.

http://www.3dmark.com/compare/3dm11/11476912/3dm11/11115261#

 

You are comparing Ivy Bridge to Devil's Canyon which is refined Haswell, not exactly fair game there lol.

Yes, that is true. but Performance benefits won't show much other than benches from there. I understand the advantages but it is a tough sell other than extreme enthusiast segment. And that is exactly the problem.

 

It is fair game? The IPC difference is like 5%. Clockspeed is the main difference between all recent i7s. If I upped to to a Haswell mobile the results would close the difference by like a minute for an hour job. The clockspeed is the difference maker. A 20 minute job on a 4.5 Ghz quad core will take around 28 minutes on a 3.3 Ghz quad core. Its literally linear.

 

Unless you're running something that uses AVX2, but that's far and few between.

 

Clockspeed gap on skylake GPUs I described above is not as dramatic as mobile Ivy to Devil's canyon, both on stock and OCed.

 

I told myself my next system or build would have a QHD (1440p), G-SYNC certified, 120Hz/144Hz display. That puts me in a very frustrating position.

 

*cough* Razer solders their RAM *cough*

What I meant in the first part is that "wow I have so many things to reply to, where do I start?".

Clevo sales are far larger a fraction than you think. OriginPC, iBuyPower, AVADirect, Falcon Northwest, Digital Storm, M-Tech Laptops, XMG/msySN, Aftershock PC, Venom Computing, Metabox, Mythlogic, Eurocom, Pro-Star computing, Vortex PC, PC Specialist, Scan laptops UK, Avell computing, HIDevolution, some CyberpowerPC (at least in the past; haven't looked hard at them recently), CEG Hardcore Custom (Clevo Extreme Gaming), Dream Machines, Clevo Center, etc. are SOME of the Clevo rebranders; only the ones who I can remember off the top of my head. These are hand-picked worldwide. There are far more people who actually own a Clevo and don't realize they do, and don't know what it is, because it isn't a MSI, isn't an ASUS, isn't an Alienware, and isn't talked about as anything other than its direct brand in most reviews/etc. So someone with an "OriginPC laptop" just knows they have an "OriginPC laptop". My friend in Canada has had a P150HM from iBuyPower for over 4 years and one day when I googled it I told him "hit FN + 1 and tell me if your fans spin up" and he's all "OMG HOW'D YOU DO THAT?"

Next, your statement was that the non-optimus machines (like the P870DM) were an extremely tiny fraction of the market's sales. I said that since Clevo's entire gaming line and their stronger entertainment line laptops either have MUX switches or dGPU-only connections, looking at the indeed tiny fraction of P870DM purchasers is not the way to go about it. Of course, most of the people buying those Clevos probably don't realize they can use the dGPU-only mode even in the gsync-capable models... but that's a different story. They should read the manual (the manual does tell you how to turn it on; not my problem if they're dunce).

...... when you install. ANY operating system. It does not automagically come with drivers. You get a default screen, and no driver tech, and if you launched a game it'd run about as fast as a snail on a salt field. THEN drivers get installed and you get your proper functionality. If you were to go disable your dGPU right now, on your X99 setup, you would still see video, because the card will continue working with basic windows drivers. Otherwise you'd be seeing a black screen from a card ACTUALLY non-working/disabled, which is way too counter-productive (and also what would happen upon installing a new operating system).

Yeah... I won't tell anyone anything if they claim it has flex issues, but under some usage I've given them, I've not noticed anything that actually hinders direct performance. I don't notice any flex while typing, and the screen seems pretty much fine. If you're talking about build quality because it uses plastic and not aluminum or other metal/metal-plastic-hybrid chassis designs, then your statements about build quality are akin to the same people who say Razer Blade laptops have "excellent build quality", and in that case, your opinion is extremely bad. Build quality should concern the layout of the internal parts, the cooling, and whether any hardware defects are present. Making the laptop operate properly without any bad design issues (like the GS43VR running the GPU heatpipes nearly touching the wifi card & its slot, touching its sole HDMI port directly, or running in close proximity to its passively-cooled PCH) is tantamount to build quality... not having it look and feel nice on the outside. And a decent plastic chassis is quite often better than a thin aluminum chassis too. I haven't looked at the other machines he's reviewed, but knowing Dell and Lenovo and their cooling systems etc, I find it somewhat hard to believe that they actually have better overall build quality.

1070s only have 8GB of vRAM.

 

I think only Aorus and Alienware announced 1440p/120hz so far?

 

Yes, and Aorus is far too hot for my liking. So, that leaves me with Alienware, hence the frustration (touched upon in my previous posts).

 

Its a shame intels charging 1k premium for 4/8 xeon mobile...im sure they couldve added 2 more cores

Clevo also has 120hz panels

Sent from my ZTE A2017U

 

Clevo does but they're not G-SYNC certified. They're supposed to be soon, but who knows when that will be.

I'm not going to wait around for much longer.