*Official* nVidia GTX 10xx Series notebook discussion thread

You didn't say if you needed CPU power or GPU power for your work, which is what?

You never said what you are running that needs this power. What are the applications you run long term computational jobs from / on?

My go to answer is to never use a laptop for the kind of work you are hinting at.

It's a waste of a perfectly good laptop, and a wasted opportunity spent applying a laptop as a solution when a server of the same cost would run rings around the laptop.

And that server would be in another room making noise and generating heat that could be dealt with more humanely in it's isolation.

Use the laptop as the front end to the computational work, live in a pleasant quiet work environment instead of crippling your psyche with mind numbing noise. After a while it'll drive you batty

I have been in computer rooms where engineers have placed their laptops for power and cooling, where the noise from their laptops with desktop CPU's doesn't bother people.

Noone wants to live with a noisy computer in their workplace, you might put up with it, but the other 100 people around you will have a vocal uprising requiring moving that computer into a datacenter environment, away from them.

The sheepish looks on the faces of those engineers tells a rich story of futile efforts and embarrassment.

You can get either laptop, pick whichever you think you and your colleagues can live with long term.

 

Heading out now, have fun

 

Yes, certainly. But the same is true of the old 4930MX chips etc, so I see no real difference.

Yes, also true. But this is why I said in a post a couple pages ago that just because something has a soldered CPU, or is a thinner design than the thicker socketed laptops, does not mean cooling should be skimped on. This is ALL the issue of the laptop manufacturers.

My primary objective is making sure information is accurate and consistent. If I find any flaws I'll point them out. I don't care which side of the arguement I appear to end up on when I do it. When people told me that 4xxxHQ and 5xxxHQ chips could hold their power limits or overclocks, I made them actually stress it and proved that those CPUs, Prema's or Svet's or whoever's unlocked BIOS or not, have an intel-set TDP limit that made them impossible to function well in any laptop.

Now, on the 6xxxHQ side, I have to keep correcting that they *CAN* hold their turbos... assuming a proper laptop is found with the proper sBIOS.

My opinion, for all intents and purposes, is that if you're looking for lots of CPU power and a high end machine, or going to spend a certain amount, you should be getting a Clevo * FROM A PREMA PARTNER SHOP* with the desktop CPUs in them. But this does not stop me from making certain what the problems with the existing models are, performance-wise, which is:
- Bad binning.
- Crap OEMs/ODMs cooling.
- Crap OEMs/ODMs sBIOS limits.

Yes, now you are getting it. I never said people should go out and buy them for the top end, nor should people buy them to overclock to the max with. I just like the record being straight.

This leads back, again, into my original posted point a couple pages back, which boils down to " OEMs and ODMs and companies like Intel/nVidia/AMD need to stop screwing laptop owners hard".

You yourself have claimed in the past that without Prema, Clevo would be nothing, correct? Why do we *NEED* Prema to fix everything? We should not. I don't see why because something has a 6820HK in it means it can't get a 100W+ TDP-rated vapor-chamber cooler system with a solid dedicated fan? Why doesn't the P870DM3 have a vapor chamber for its CPU cooling? Same difference.

 

P870DM has no problem cooling 6700K, although the vapor chamber on the CPU would be a nice feature. I had zero thermal issues with the CPU with delid and Liquid Ultra. Ran it 24/7 @ 4.7GHz for my daily driver clock speeds. If you get one with a heat sink that is warped, nothing is going to fix that except for getting the heat sink exchanged for one that is not.

 

for an expensive machine like that, I don't think a warped heatsink is acceptable

currently what's holding me back from buying a clevo is the heatsink issue on the P870DM3 models, one guy needs to use a shim + LM to keep temp on the slave 1080 in check




I would take a BGA machine, given if the price is right and the TDP/performance adjustment is not crippled. But currently that's not the case. BGA laptops are selling on par, or sometimes even more, than a Clevo from Prema partners.

Don't pay DTR money for BGA laptops.

 

I agree. It's not acceptable. Screw-ups are very common though. Has always been that way regardless of price. Back in the day when Alienware made good high end products they had screw-ups frequently as well. If you get a warped one, the company you bought it from needs to fix it. Not all of them are warped, messed up or assembled in a haphazard manner. Sad to say it, but sloppy crap is common among all brands in the 21st Century.

 

BGA might make sense if extremely thin and light machine in the end goal. There's nothing wrong with having that on offer and I see the aesthetic appeal. There's not a problem with catering to this market, but buyer's have the right to know of what the compromise is and how that might affect them. I'm still waiting to see some of the savings BGA was meant to bring get passed on to consumers though...

Putting a BGA chip in a enthusiast machine is simply bad idea. It's not bashing to say its a abhorrent idea. It is what it is.
Not being able to service the machine is a glowing example of a design flaw and a foolish choice by engineers. It makes no sense in a larger machine to have to send back a MB with the GPU and CPU attached just to replace 1 random part. It doesn't serve the end user in any way what-so-ever. Let alone the complications of sourcing a part like this outside of warranty.

It has no place in an enthusiast machine and can't in good conscience be spun otherwise.

 

And since every single reseller has a different return policy, you can get the short stick even though heatsink is warped.

Of course, they would probably budge if we complain on NBR, but still...

 

Any OEM or reseller that refuses to replace defective parts under warranty in a new machine needs to be bashed at NBR and other places. They do not deserve to stay in business if they refuse to take care of their customers, and potential customers deserve to be alerted to their shoddy service so they can choose another vendor when they are ready to spend money.

 

Again though, the fact that you required a delid and liquid ultra. Now, I understand that the cooling was not inherently "bad", however if the Grid heatsink was getting it, why not upgrade the relatively-smaller heatsink (compared to the P7xxDMx) to using a vapor chamber too? Etc. I believe Prema voiced that he would have liked if they did that too.

Besides, if they DID do that... well. Delidding + CLU at contact point would be even MORE effective now, and current P870DM owners would be able to get even better cooling if they bought a heatsink.

 

I'm wondering if @Larry@LPC-Digital can confirm the situation with this.

They're currently the most price competitive prema-partner Clevo shop, but the heatsink issue still prevents me from buying.

 

I think you may be thinking of HIDevolution. I ordered from lpc and didn't see anything about the prema bios.

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Just deciding between the 1060 and 1070 models myself.

I can't help but think that the 1060 is more than enough for the 60hz panel. 1070 seems like overkill, doesn't it?

 

Lpc will provide prema bios when it is available for pascal clevo.


You need to call them to schedule a remote flash. I talked to larry (owner) and he directly confirmed this.

 

Wow! That's a nice surprise! I had no idea. Whenever people talk about prema, they mention hid as the place you have to go.

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If I was you I would go check some benchmarks of the desktop versions in various games you play or may pickup in the future. The laptop versions should be within 10% according to Nvidia. In my case I went with the 1070 because I wanted something that would definitely be future proof for about 2-3 years without having to lower settings too much.

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W0t? This is so terribly misinformed... Two things:

You claim that 'BGA laptops' are selling more than 'Clevos from Prema partners'. Firstly, Clevo itself makes laptops with BGA CPUs and GPUs. Secondly, compare HIDEvolution prices of the 15.6" P650RP6 and the P750DM with no configuration options selected. The base model of the latter costs $330 more than the former.

Unless you're talking about the ultra-thin options like the trash that Razer makes, BGA laptops are typically cheaper than their socketed brethren by a few hundred dollars or so, like in the case above.

 

They said that they give Sager the guidelines to follow, however they don't touch the laptops, unless you specifically request it to them to check it and pay them extra to ship to them (and it'd add about a week or two on the order too).

Now THAT'S interesting, though. Remote flash huh... is this for Prema sBIOS and vBIOS? Or just vBIOS? Their options are less than partners like HID (especially in storage & RAM configurations, delidding CPUs under warranty with CLU, etc) but aside from that they are cheapest by a couple hundred $$; which has always been the case. Sager is always the cheapest around a month after launches.

We're considering say, the MSI GT72, GT73, GT80, ASUS G752, etc. They are in essence more expensive. I went on ASUS' website and checked their top end model with a 1070 and it cost $3000 as a pre-built config. I then went on HID, and managed to get a P775DM2 for about $100 less, with otherwise the same configuration.

The more midranged models though, certainly. I agree with you.

 

To be fair - Asus and MSI have the 'brand tax' attached to them, similar to Apple notebooks, though not to such a large extent as the latter.

It also explains why Clevo notebooks are still significantly cheaper than the competition - no advertising, no marketing, just plain manufacturing costs of labour and parts. My point was that plenty of people here make the assumption that Clevo = socketed, when, as I have already mentioned, they also make BGA laptops. In fact, their best-selling models (from my country's reseller, at least - it ought to be fairly accurate to extrapolate this to other countries as well) are all from the P650 series - which happens to be BGA.

 

Both sBIOS and vBIOS.

 

I'm with the same dilema.
On one hand, I would prefer the P775 with its LGA CPU, but the GT73 has a lot going for it, specially the 120hz screen, which seems the best 1080p panel avaiable on a gaming laptop, and it has a really impressive cooling system. Don't really know what to choose from. I don't really need a 4.7ghz CPU 24/7, just need adequate power for gaming...

Just look at the difference in cooling:

GT73VR


P775:

 

Ah, fair enough.

The 120Hz screen on the MSI was revealed to be 25ms response time, and thus trash. The AUO 120Hz on the P870DM2/3 is the best 1080p panel so far. It's going to come to the P775DM3 as an official config, though.

As for the cooling, the MSI does indeed seem to have it beefier. The only model beyond that would be a P870DM2 with a single 1080, which you could use with a single 330W brick (though it's not uhh... "officially" supported) as I had suggested to Georgel earlier.

But yes, it looks like MSI brought it with the cooling this time. Too bad Clevo does its "barely redesigned new model" all the time; the P775DM3 might've indeed benefitted from a cooling redesign. It should still be sufficient, but I guess if nobody gets a decently cooled model I could be wrong about it.

Really, I don't know why MSI doesn't just shove a socketed desktop chip in there. They do it on some of their whitebooks; Eurocom's Tornado F5 is a MSI model. Why don't the mainstream ones get it. It would instantly make them near top of the pick without reservations for people wanting superb power.

 

Maybe having longer pipes won't actually be as good since they keep heat within and there's the problem of that the cooper is not there to ensure heat travel, but heat dissipation. A small cooper pipe, but close to the cooler itself could bring better cooling. (All theoretically speaking)

 

Is there any test of the AUO 120hz anywhere? Is the response time better? The MSI 120hz is 7ms on WtB and 25ms GtG. Not perfect, but better then most.

I do agree, the GT73VR with an LGA CPU would be a top choice for most. I don't know why they don't choose that route. I don't belive the costs are that different.

 

The results for the gt73vr (with the 1070) are really good, so I guess that is not an issue, the cooling is really good for a single GPU. I guess they use the same cooling for single as they use for the SLI, that is why is so good.

 

The BGA CPUs are more expensive tray-price than the LGA chips. I have zero idea why they didn't if they know they could.

Unfortunately I'm waiting for a good test. I've been told 5ms and from people who have it I hear it's amazing, but then again I always have to take screen things with a grain of salt.

 

A standard X99 build. Nothing insane. Some parts are back-ordered. Don't want to go off-topic here.

 

Asus G752 (GTX 1070) Review - The Best Gaming Laptop with G-Sync?

 

"wasn't thermally stable, but is somewhat okay since it's fast enough"


no, that's not okay...

 

My thoughts exactly. It's ridiculous.

 

Looks like a case of lower standards.

 

Glad to see the wealth of reviews out there of all the machines. My window shopping has changed based so much on other peoples misfortunes.* Really looking forward to seeing how the new Alienware 15 handles cooling/noise with the 1070 and see if it is as good as they say it should or if it's all just marketing spell casting. Otherwise based on what I've read, the MSI GT62 with the 1070 is now my front runner.

* Apologizes to those who bought and have been disappointed, have RMA'd, or have returned. Your sacrifice is noted.

 

Yup. Everyone expects laptops to suck so if one does, they find it's ok, because #laptop. No, that's not how it flipping works.

Ugh. Disgusting.

 

Talking about thermals, I'm quite happy about the GT72VR cooling capabilities.

 

Why did they even bother to place an 6820HK instead of 6700hq if it throttles with oc?...

I mean.. they could had made it a little thicker and added a beefier cooling on it.

Thin laptop fans will be thrilled though, it doesn't throttle at stock speeds, so it's something.

 

The cooling system on the G752 is more than adequate for a 75w limited CPU (ASUS put a hard limit on the TDP).

The thermal paste is limiting factor.

You ever try to use semen as a thermal paste? That's what ASUS uses for their "Gaming" laptop and all their products.



Problem with the CPU and GPU loaded at the same time, is that the GPU 3D vapor chamber offloads too much heat onto the CPU side. This is why I don't like thermal systems that's connected on the GPU and CPU.
The CPU and GPU on the G752 is tightly connected by a soldered extrusion on the 3D Vapor chamber to the CPU heatsink.

But for something like the MSi GT72, GT62/16L1 (Z170) that has connected heat system. I think that might be fine because the "connection" between the CPU and GPU is not that effective (use thermal pads instead of soldering).

 

LOL.

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Yeah, though the amount of (warranty-voiding) modding required for getting it in a decent state is... no. Not for a $3000+ laptop. You had to do more than just change the paste, correct? And even that was a full teardown to get access too?

Also,

 

That guy did a great review, really fun to watch and very down to earth informative. Dang! I wouldn't pay a dime over $1400 for that. Speakers suck. Fans super loud under load. No OC. 75hz panel (can it OC to 100?), keyboard backlight red, palmrest is ugly to me, very much a blah experience it seems. Asus = compromise, but not on price apparently.

 

Liquid metal on cpu yes

Full teardown needed to access cooling unit

 

Well, I guess it's worth a shot, judging from the performance of mayonnaise!
(taken from the p775 thread)

 

Chocolate is worse than nothing lmao. I'm surprised butter did so well.

 

Surprising that chocolate is a thermal insulator instead of conductor.

Is it normal for temps to go north over time and does a system need repasting, or once a good paste is done, it's good to go for a few years?

 

Yup, not worth it from a base unit.

"Hey, this ASUS has a capable enough cooling system, once you do a full teardown of the unit, repaste it, remove some things blocking access to air for the fans, etc".

 

better repAste every year or so

 

and void warranty probably

there was no warranty sticker though

 

In case this was not mentioned if so iggynore.

Nvidia sees tight graphics card supply; to release GTX 1050 in late September

Monica Chen, Taipei; Joseph Tsai, DIGITIMES [Friday 9 September 2016]

Nvidia's Pascal-based GeForce GTX 1080, 1070 and 1060 graphics cards are seeing strong demand from the market and therefore are currently in tight supply. To further expand into the market, Nvidia is planning to release its mid-range GTX 1050 graphics card at the end of September at the earliest.

Graphics card players including Asustek Computer, Gigabyte Technology, Micro-Star International (MSI) and Colorful have all been aggressively striving for more GPU supply from Nvidia and their profits from the graphics cards and shipments are both expected to reach new highs in the third quarter.

Meanwhile, AMD is defending its market share with existing Polaris-based Radeon RX 480, 470 and 460 graphics cards, but is still seeing fierce competition from Nvidia's products.

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20160909PD209.html

Quotable Quotes:

Dont put the cart in front of the Horse, Horses pull carts, they dont push them.

 

If you were referring to the G752 6820HK OC to 4.0ghz problem he had, it could be he didn't undervolt - as he didn't mention that - or it could be a CPU that falls under the average OC ability - there are some such reported in the various 6820HK threads ( @iunlock ).

His use of words made it unclear how much effort he put in, what he tried, and what did work - did 3.9ghz work? 3.8ghz? He may have done everything correctly, but he didn't explain himself well enough to demonstrate that.

Reviewers aren't always proficient in tuning, as the Clevo reviews often show as well - running hot - not OC'd - etc.

As he did say, "It was fast enough", and gaming performance was "amazing" - so to a "filthy casual" as he called himself, the CPU performance isn't what mattered, it was the GPU performance and the resulting FPS attained in games.

He said he did 3dmark testing, and the GPU/CPU temps were very well cooled, but didn't give the temps or the benchmarking results (is there a written article from him with the details?).

The fan noise was higher than previous 17" laptops, and it would be because Pascal runs hotter. The db readings shown weren't that high. With Maxwell that laptop was quiet, so to him in comparison it's less quiet.

The 75hz G-sync panel is better than many other newly shipping Pascal laptops that are limited to 60hz G-sync (Clevo), and the advertised 120hz G-sync panel is still rare. A 1440p panel would be more appropriate in the new Pascal laptops, but that is only a rumor on the horizon. It's not an Asus specific issue, it's industry wide.

That's the first independent G752 review, let's hope there are more reviews with more in depth tuning details.

 

That's a bunch of BS. I OC'd all my Asus laptops, ran them OC'd for years, and not one needed re-pasting, 7 laptops, no re-pasting.

I recommend not repasting Asus laptops unless you are thermally throttling the CPU, and even then it's not something the average laptop owner should attempt on their own.

I have spent many hundreds of posts on helping people that venture into re-pasting Asus laptops only to get worse or only slightly better results.

And, worse yet the pastes they were using at the time MX-4 AS-5 were drying out and they would come back 2-3 months later complaining that their temperatures were going up again.

There was one person that would come back every 2-3 months looking for new pastes, shims, pads, etc, wasting all their time re-pasting instead of gaming - and I pointed out their original temps while not the best they have had were stable for their first year of use and were still stable - and not thermal throttling - when the 1st repasting was done.

Along with a "clean install" of the OS right out of the box, blowing away your recovery partition, re-pasting perfectly good long lasting past - years on my Asus laptops without ever needing a repaste - is the dumbest thing you can do with a new laptop.

Alienware and Clevo's might need re-pasting out of the box, but the Asus laptops are designed to cool and run for years on their long lasting paste application.

Out of all the people that were panicking about their "temps being too high" - they actually weren't - people would complain about 82c as being too high for CPU temps under gaming load for example - there were only a handful of actual bad paste jobs in all the years I helped people on the ROG board.

Only 2-3 come to mind - and I suggested to RMA them for Asus to fix - after all they paid for the Asus laptop warranty - and the 2 that came back to report said they got their laptops back quickly and the temperature problem was gone.

Re-pasting 99.999% of Asus laptops should be completely unnecessary, and ill-advised for anyone except a tinkerer to do.

You don't need the 3-4c, or even 10c reduction in temp initially gotten from re-pasting, it's not going to make a bit of difference in games, and it will start to rise after a period of time and you will be locked into re-pasting time after time again if you start down that path.

The Asus ROG gaming laptops are well cooled already, you don't need to screw with them at all.

 

Do you mean the AUO 120hz G-sync panel that isn't shipping on the Clevo yet, so it hasn't even been tested or seen?

I guess in the fantasy realm, that panel hasn't been proven to not be fast enough for 120hz refresh, so in essence it is the "best panel so far"