*Official* nVidia GTX 10xx Series notebook discussion thread

65w pull on cpu + asus semen = 98c
72w pull on cpu + liquid metal = 70~72c

 

Is that stock? Is that a CPU load necessary to run games at their fullest?

Or, is that benchmarker laptop abuse mode results?

The laptop wasn't designed to run that much power through it (45w stock), so even though you can see a difference in that abuse scenerio, in initial testing, is that how you would game all the time?

99.999% of the owners of those laptops will never abuse their laptops like that.

Your example is therefore irrelevant.

Also, would you suggest someone that has never re-pasted before open up a complex laptop build like the G752 and use Liquid Metal to repaste?

That's the ridiculousness that your recommendations take on for 99.9999% of the people that hear it.

They should *never* attempt that on their own, and you are doing them a disservice to even suggest that they do. It will have no beneficial effect on their gaming.

 

While I agree with you, just point me to that one laptop that can endure the abuse I must put it through.

But yeah, I doubt that most users will need to abuse their laptops like this. Gaming should be easy for them laptops, but still, I do think they should had done a better job with limiting the throttle.

P670 throttles too from what notebookcheck reviews stated... I can't consider it anymore...

BUT!!! It throttles in absuive scenarios that 99% of users don't put their laptops and especially games won't abuse the CPU that much.

GPU seemed good on P670, so that's something going on for it...

I wonder if repasting it would help with the little throttle problem, compared to their test unit?

 

From what I have read over the years, it's best to re-paste on your own for Clevo builds.

Unless you have a Boutique shop that will test the laptop temps under load before re-pasting - you can suggest what loads to test - then re-test after re-pasting to make sure it was effective and to your expectations - otherwise they can re-paste again until it works for your expectations before shipping.

There have been some sad failed re-paste stories even in those scenarios done in a professional environment, but at least they are caught before shipping due to the load testing done at the builder site.

One NBR member had Liquid Metal repasting done by the builder, and it failed 3x, I kept asking him to suggest shims or change to another paste due to potential heatplate fitting issues, but they finally unboxed a 2nd laptop (it was an MSI) and shipped it without re-pasting - and it load tested fine without repasting before they shipped it.

The extra sad part was that after the first laptop load tested with great temps before re-pasting I strongly suggested he skip re-pasting completely and ask them to ship the laptop as is - it was done with build / configuration other than re-pasting.

He went ahead with the re-pasting, a tragedy that took 3x re-pastings of the 1st laptop, 2 weeks to resolve, and he ended up with a 2nd out of the box (MSI) laptop that load tested as good as the first one out of the box. Re-pasting was a complete waste of time on both laptops.

If you end up getting a Clevo, and are concerned about load temps, ask them to use a reproducible load test using easy to access non-licensed software to run before and after re-pasting, giving you the numbers *before* re-pasting before going ahead with the re-pasting.

You might get lucky and not need to pay for re-pasting, and therefore not be on the yearly / quarterly re-pasting schedule for the life of the laptop

Most people don't realize you need to *keep* repasting with enthusiast paste to keep the temperatures low, as they will rise much higher than stock paste if you don't keep the paste refreshed to a schedule.

A schedule that is variable based on the fitment of the parts, the anti-drying out qualities of the paste, and the quality of the re-pasting job done last.

 

The CPU is set at "extreme" mode on the ROG software and Witcher 3 is running on background. Novigrad is really CPU bound unlike other areas of the game.

Firestrike or TimeSpy didn't produce as high temperature compared to Witcher 3.

OCCT would make the CPU throttle down to 2Ghz or something before repaste.


My suggestion would be not to buy ASUS.

 

I'm sure the re-pasting helped reduce temperatures, it usually does, therefore the motivation to do it.

But, for the 99.9999% of the people using the laptop they will never get a benefit from re-pasting that outweighs the hassle of the 1st and subsequent repastings.

Those that do it on their own risk damaging the laptop eventually through the constant disassembly and reassembly of the laptop and cooling system. It happens to the best of us.

For non-mechanically inclined hapless noobs it's almost a certainty to create a basket case laptop requiring RMA or expensive repairs if the tampering is considered owner induced damage, or worse, be started on the endless cycle of continually re-pasting throughout the life of the laptop.

99.9999% of the people can happily use and game on their new laptop without ever repasting, for years to come.

 

Depends on the paste. Some paste just dries up, loses its thermal conductivity, and heat issues crop up. I've been an advocate of IC Diamond for years now because I've found it to last for years with little degradation of thermal performance.

 

Then that 99% people better not buy ASUS

Lots other laptop out there easier to maintain.

 

For some reason people are put off by the scratching issue.

See below, but fewer complaints recently. Did ICD change the formula after 2014, or have people just come to expect the abrasive scratching nature of pulverized diamond paste?

If you repaste less often I wouldn't think that would be an issue. Also, don't grind the heatplate / heatsink against the CPU to spread the ICD as ICD is abrasive and you can grind off the print on the high points of the contact.

IC Diamond warning
http://forums.evga.com/IC-Diamond-warning-m695748.aspx

Yeesh IC Diamond 7 is some crazy stuff
https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/yeesh-ic-diamond-7-is-some-crazy-stuff.2073442/

Avoid IC DIAMOND thermal paste!
http://www.overclock.net/t/1411528/avoid-ic-diamond-thermal-paste

 

99.999% of the people I helped on the Asus ROG laptop forums had no problems with CPU / GPU thermals.

What is there to maintain if you don't need to open it up to re-paste? The RAM and storage access is simple and easy to do with 1 screw access, unless you need to swap out the RAM under the keyboard, then that's an adventure

Your extreme (ab)use case aside, there are no problems with Asus thermal cooling.

In fact, Asus cooling it's considered to be the best and quietest cooling implementations for gaming laptops.

Until recently when MSI stepped up their cooling implementations, MSI was considered loud and noisy cooling. It still can be for the smaller form factors, but overall it's much improved.

 

It seems like GenTech has caught on:

 

I mean, that's something that some people might be looking for.

 

Sorry, not tracking what you "mean"

What people, and what are they looking for?

 

I love it that they put the cost/value of Hellman's Mayo between ICD and CLU

 

Wasn't ironic there.

I remember actual gamers praising the new silent laptops. They were totally fine with lower performances for really silent systems.

I happen to work at night a lot, I might have to take care of all the heavy stuff during the day too, especially if the noise would wake up my wife

Before buying a top end laptop, I personally don't even consider noise a problem, but then I remember that I can't get too noisy at night and I tend to work a lot during the night since it's easier to focus.

Still would feel so cool to use headphones and the strongest setup out there. Would have a novelty to it. But for reals, it might hurt me in the long run, especially after the first days of novelty pass and I realize I can't use full power during the night.

Maybe I can use a more silent profile on an P775 though.

At any rate, I still need more power (but also still using an 860m + 4710hq)!

 

If anything you can edit fan curves to operate within higher but tolerable temps when needing that stealth!

Sent from my ZTE A2017U

 

I sincerely think your knowledge of ASUS is a bit outdated. Check this: http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/investigating-6820hk-performance-and-overclock.795152/ hard modding, even an easy one, was needed to get the machine into "acceptable" temps, really. That was on their latest model. I remember that their old top end models had very good out-of-the-box cooling (and only their top end), however that no longer really seems to be the case, as far as I've been seeing in general.

You shouldn't make this statement in a vacuum. I need all the temperature savings possible, due to my environment. If even you put me in a less-humid 80F room, I would likely lose a solid 5-10 degrees on most all of my parts in heavier loads. A default ASUS as I've seen in a place like mine would not work properly. It just will not. A completely repasted and modded-for-air ASUS? That could fly.

People have it? It's the same one that's been shipping with the laptop already. The first batches shipped before they could finalize the Gsync license, but they're all coming gsync'd right now, as far as I know. Clevo no longer has a P870DM2/3 in a non-G format on their website. So it's been seen, just not tested like NBC.

It has the best specs out of the other 120Hz panels I've heard of currently in production. If it turns out to be 25ms like the others tested have done, then that'll suck badly and I probably will care much less about it... though its specs would still be highest (94% NTSC colour in particular).

I've been saying for quite some time that all that needs doing is removing the paste correctly. Aka, soaking it, and/or gently wiping it with something like a soaked Q-tip or something. Alcohol-dipped coffee filters scrubbing it off etc will do the scratching... and nobody listens, so the scratching is almost always user error.

 

Ah, that's clearer now, didn't read anything into what you said before because I didn't have these details.

Yeah, that's how those engineers got slowly suckered into getting those desktop CPU laptops years ago, and then found out there was nowhere to use them at work, or home, because noone was going to put up with the noise.

I have lived with high performance computing for a very long time, before it was called HPC, and noone would consider using a noisy computer in general population.

You always used the front ends in a temperature controlled and noise treated operating room that was adjacent to the real compute hardware which needed forced air and liquid cooling equipment which was very loud - you can feel the rumble of it all through the floor coverings - they touched through the thick walls between the chambers.

That's why I always recommend purpose built hardware, with separation between interface and heavy compute mode equipment.

It's fun to have a 700HP car, at first, until you need to start it at night, or early in the morning and idle it up to warm it up - and all the neighbor's lights start coming on after you kick over the motor the first time. You'll hear about it later.

It also gets old needing to hit every gas station on the way and back during long trips.

Same goes for over the top laptops, it's fun, but not a long term fun unless you can isolate yourself from others and the noise for yourself with really good headphones.

Fast internet makes it much easier to use remote access software over VPN between home and work - most businesses have this set up to use datacenter hardware easily from home.

Something to consider.

 

My experience with helping others and watching for issues goes through the G752 and there are no widespread cooling problems, and in fact again they are the quietest and coolest running gaming laptops.

If you are going to put anything in an extreme environment and run it outside normal temperature range, you will need to make special considerations, but that's a rare exception, 99.9999% of people can use the G752 without re-pasting or additional cooling.

The G751 and G750 had their own special disassembly tricks of the trade too, as do most laptops, no matter how "easy" they are to take apart.

When someone is concerned about the ease of disassembly and reassembly of a laptop, I have to wonder what the heck they are doing that needs that kind of constant access, because noone else would put up with that constant upkeep in their laptop.

My laptops have all been dust free inside when I open them up, very little dust inside because I run them in air-conditioned environments most of the time.

And, as added protection at home I use laptop stands with mesh filters cleaning the air forced up into them.

Prevention is a very important aspect of high end electronic care. I open up enough hardware at work, I don't need to add to my work load by doing the same with my hardware at home. Prevention keeps me focused on enjoying using the hardware rather than maintaining it.

Maybe you should invest in a portable air-conditioner / dust filtration system, I have used them in some environments in the past, and been successful at keeping dust and thermal problems at bay when the environment is extreme.

 

For disassembly ease fanatics theres clevo and MSI...if OCD doesn't kick in when your removing those dozen screws. Totally agree also demciflex is pretty much the go to!

Sent from my ZTE A2017U

 

For business, that's a really cool solution! (Pun intended)

But when I need just one machine to fit my every need, what should I look into? I mean, a P775 or P870 as it is now can probably be pretty silent if one doesn't do anything too hard with it, and it can also spin up to enable true power for when it's called for!

 

It's not 99.99999%, though. Everybody in the:
- Lower caribbean
- United Arab Emirates, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, etc
- Places like India
- Australian summers, especially near to the ocean
- Central America
- Northern part of South America (Colombia, Venezuela, Guyana, etc) especially near the ocean
- The Phillipines
- Places around Guinea, like Sierra Leone or Senegal
- etc.

Will have similar troubles like I do. You can look at @Phoenix who has significantly higher temperatures than much of the rest of this forum on his P870DM, and will continue to do so with his P870DM3 whenever he gets it.

People review machines generally in an A/C room, or a cool enough room (25c or less almost all the time) and if things seem fine they say that's ok. But that's not indicative of 99% of the laptops' users. You just don't hear about the other people too much. The US and UK and Netherlands show up on forums the most for tech as far as I've seen; at least English-speaking forums. They'd be the majority sample we get when looking in places like here.

 

Yup, adding those filters to a laptop directly is good too, as it helps no matter where you go. I had a problem with them peeling off in my bag, and fortunately most of the newer laptops have a layer of mesh on the inside over the vents to prevent dust from coming in.

Whenever I hear of Clevo's ease of maintenance it's in the same breath that they say you need to re-paste the laptop, and tweak/tune the heatsink with shims because they are often warped or poorly made, and to me none of those things are things I deem admirable or desirable in a new laptop.

When I get a laptop I benchmark it and burn it in to make sure the parts don't flake out, make sure the temperatures are what I expect, and that the fans aren't too noisy.

Then I start using the laptop for the intended purpose.

I'm not interested in rebuilding the laptop, if it doesn't meet my needs and performance expectations out of the box, I'll get another laptop - the same one if it looks like a manufacturing problem, or the next one on my list if the design isn't up to the task.

The only laptops I have returned for not meeting my design expectations were Acer and HP, all the Asus and MSI laptops were great right out of the box and stayed that way through my use and the next owners use for years.

Clevo is interesting in that 700lb muscle car role, but for an everyday gaming laptop I still prefer MSI and Asus.

That doesn't mean I don't consider and might eventually buy a Clevo SLI laptop, they are still high on the list, but the early production units are showing that Clevo has some more design or manufacturing details to work out before they run cool enough and quiet enough out of the box for me.

When Clevo makes that happen I will be happy to own one

BTW, I should mention that MSI used to be on my don't buy list due to noise, thermal, and design issues, but over the last few years they have really come on strong and I feel comfortable recommending them too.

 

It sounds like the manufacturers aren't paying attention to that fact either, they should build purpose fit designs for those regions, as you say that's a large population.

It also sounds like you very aware of this problem unique to high temperature regions, as hopefully are most of the other laptop buyers from those regions.

You should mention that in your recommendations as well - because in the rest of the temperate world the designs work well, and your cautions don't apply.

 

Romania has temperatures up to 40 - 45 C in shade during summer... Room temperatures without AC are pretty similar... Maybe this is why I'm also very concerned about temperatures and throttling.

I hope I'll get a cooler place soon...

 

It's worth a try at least right?

You've done your homework so you know how to optimize the hardware (remove the internal intake covers).

You can have the builder deal with the heatplate fitment during re-pasting - so you can reject poorly made components before it ships.

You can have the builder load test the CPU / GPU's before it ships, before and after re-pasting, so you will know the resulting thermals and fan noise results before it ships.

You can always reject shipment based on results of their load testing for you.

You know about how to tune the fan curves for quieter operation, so why not go for it

And, please be sure to let us know how it works out for you

 

Its honestly latter but foxconn hsf tend to have oddities more than anyone else which is why ICD/Kryo etc help so much where stock will not if you do get heatsink that is warped. 65c OCd on a 1060 alone sold me on keeping it but it was a lot of trial and error and now im even thinking of shimming m.2 to bottom panel with fujipoly pad to cool that too I couldve gotten asus or msi but opted for more storage.

Definitely the tinker and tune with it to go beyond kinda system unlike best out of box experience of others.

On my GE62 I installed the demci on the inside...probably not best idea but it worked for few months I used it before being sold. To me mesh filters on laptops still let in too many micro particles.

I wouldn't do internal demci again though unless it's on a panel that doesn't require entire bottom to be removed...plus my desktop is doing good job of sucking in any dust in room.



Sent from my ZTE A2017U

 

Exactly. This is exactly what I'm saying. It harkens back the whole time to the point I made before: Laptop users need to stop being screwed over. It's why I always make a HUGE point when I look at a laptop in a "showroom". Because those places are generally rather cool, with enough space given and cherry-picked laptops for the cooling. If a laptop has a problem IN THERE, you had best not touch it with a 20-foot pole.

No, most people from these regions are *NOT* aware of the problems... until they get something expensive which is supposed to be "cool" and find it isn't.

This is why I generally hunt for the best cooling. As I said earlier, if the P775DM3 can't handle its temperatures (especially in relatively cooler rooms like much of NBR would have) but the GT73VR can, and the P870DM2 on single 330W brick is not an option for people (which I can completely understand), then guess what gets the recommendation? 6700K doesn't mean jack if it can't hold base clocks at max fans and simultaneous load, and I can do it with a 6820HK. ESPECIALLY since the loads I can (and eventually will) put a system under are far higher than many who just game, and 120Hz is *MUCH* more demanding on a CPU than 60Hz is (and the P775DM3 is getting 120Hz panels in the near future).

I dislike recommending machines with soldered components above $2500 in general, but if the MSI can be rid of the CPU TDP throttle issue I know it has in some of its systems, even if Svet BIOS is required, then it'll be the better model to directly recommend. I'm perfectly prepared to give unpopular opinions here.

 

113f?! Jeez...and I thought I was suffering with 90f when using desktop.

For maximum cooling you'll want to do some extras no matter what system you pick at that point like m.2 heatsink, extra copper cooling and the likes. Maybe build a wall of superflower fans lol they are so cheap in romania heck just make a diy cooling pad with them.

(these)


Sent from my ZTE A2017U

 

I don't think the manufacturers are screwing people over this, the technology is just all running hot, and the best they can do is the best they can do.

And, for most people unlocking the TDP offers no real day to day benefit, and makes their thermal problems that much worse.

Those laptops are designed for 45w continuous operation, not the 75w++ you are trying to make them run.

These aren't compute servers, they are laptops.

Why would you recommend unlocking the heat generating devices in a laptop in the same breath you are complaining they can't cool in hot climates at stock OC speeds?

That makes no sense to me.

It seems to me you should be trying to mod or tune the stock laptop for cooler running potential to help your regional compatriates run their laptops designed for cooler climates in the hotter regions you live in.

Take into account that most people living in those regions are like others in more temperate regions. They don't want to spend their lives opening up and modding laptops. They want to use those laptops with a little software tuning to make the experience more enjoyable.

Why push the temperature generation up higher when they already can't deal with normal stock OC tunings without needing to open them up and mod them?

99.9999% of the people that buy gaming laptops have no interest in anything other than using their laptops for gaming. The extra 10% performance improvement from OC'ing isn't of interest to many. Even fewer want to get into modding to make things work another 1-5% faster - which won't make a bit of difference in gaming anyway.

 

Yes, the tech is indeed a large part of the problem. However there's a lot of barely-passable cooling out there. Razer's laptops are a good example. Look at much of Gigabyte models. Even last gen there were a lot of laptops that operate near thermal limits, and Maxwell was extremely cool. I'm not saying everything needs perfect cooling, but stock-speed cooling pretty much anywhere realistic should be acceptable. Not many laptops do that.

The TDP being unlocked is because they sell the 6820HK. The 6820HK, especially feeding a 1060/1070 at 120Hz, is rather worthless if it's 45W-TDP locked. It's because it's advertised as an unlocked CPU. You're going to need more than 3.2GHz for 120fps in many new games. In fact, it's downright impossible in something like BO3 to hold 120fps with the stock speeds. 1080 or not. Dying Light too. So yeah, it is important. Besides, the GT73VR can hold its cooling well enough as far as I know for the CPU with some overclocking.

Then an unlocked CPU is pointless. They should just sell it with 6700HQ, 6820HQ and 6920HQ options and nothing else if they can't handle above 45W. An unlocked CPU and low-rated TDP are not something you can have at the same time.

Yes, I know. But high end laptops are still high end. They should be able to handle most realistic work, even if it's not directly gaming. I said a few posts before, my demands for quality are higher than most on this forum. I was apparently told off not to make the statement, but right here I'm proving it. I fully expect a good, high end, especially so expensive, gaming laptop to perform as well as a decent high end desktop. I never said we need to overclock to infinity, or keep 4.8GHz as a daily driver, or anything of the like. But some things need to be taken into decent consideration. OC-able CPU? You should be able to OC it properly to a decent speed and keep it.

I'm saying, that reasonable performance should be expected in realistic situations. I'm not going to go to Saudi Arabia to get the world overclocking record, you know? I don't think extreme OCing should be possible in a place like that where it is possible near the limits of the cooling system in cooler places in the world.

What makes no sense?

Yes. Certainly. This is why we should have well sufficient cooling solutions and QC (on the chips too; which includes lack of awful binning) where someone doesn't need to get a laptop and then tune it to get "acceptable" temps/performance/etc. Tuning should always be something optional that a tinkerer or enthusiast can use to optimize their machine, not something that should ever be considered "required" for someone. This also passes forward into why I believe the ultrathin notebooks shouldn't be attempted to be made into midranged/high end gaming notebooks.

You're probably right here. But that doesn't mean people should attempt to make a machine for the relatively low loads that 60Hz gaming demands.

 

Thanks for the well written and thought out response.

The reviews coming out for 1070 6820HK laptops show them all running games well past 120hz, except for a couple that run in the 80-60fps range, and if unlocking the TDP of the CPU let's those run at 120hz I would be surprised, as they are GPU bound.

If the TDP unlock helps in a couple of games that's still not enough for me to do it long term.

It would be fun to experiment, but I don't have a driving need to make a couple of games run a little faster due to pushing the cooling and power system beyond the makers design limits. There's just nothing worth doing that for me.

I can still enjoy those games at the speeds they run just fine.

I'm happy you're happy doing what you are doing, but so far nothing you have said is going to make me open up a perfectly good running laptop to get a few degree's cooler running at stock speeds, so I can then jack up the power from 45w to 75w++ just to run a couple of games a little faster.

And, for the rest of the games, shall we call it: 99.9999% of the games, those mods aren't at all needed.

In fact, I limit the FPS of games to the refresh, or the next closest refresh under the maximum that the game FPS averages at - 80hz for an 80 FPS game.

And, that works great for those few games that won't reach 120hz / 120 FPS.

 

In this case I suppose, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I simply expect machines to adhere to a certain degree of quality, and this includes cooling, lack of intentional gimping (such as the 45W lock) even if it's something the user has to turn on themselves (which is how it is normally; you have to raise the sliders to get it to do anything even in an unlocked system), and parts. I can't expect everyone to have the same high standards, however I think people should at the least expect no thermal throttling at stock speeds under non-synthetic-but-realistic loads (video rendering, CPU-based video recording of games, livestreaming, etc... anything that can stress either the CPU, or the whole system, more than general gaming would, and are things people who mostly "just game" would still do).

 

I think you are exaggerating a bit too far. I have never had thermal throttling even when running heavy duty CUDA and CPU holding at 45w/47w CPU and 99% GPU for days at a time, on all of my laptops.

Temps were more than acceptable and never got close to the thermal throttling range.

But, then again, my ambient temperatures hovered between 68F and 73F indoors during most of my usage.

 

I feel like you fail to understand what motivates these companies to design their products. It is to make it as cheap as possible while still doing what it is supposed to do. I know you find that unacceptable, but you don't have a say in the matter. There is no motivation to improve cooling design when reviews and sales of their products are not impacted by such failures. Business class machines are stuck in competition with each other, if all business brands fell except Dell, I guarantee the quality of their laptops would decrease while prices would not. The gaming laptop makers have been all going the same direction in their designs to save on cost.

Clevo is the lone outlier, but they have been different from the start as a company with very little direct advertisement in most countries. What drives them to remain different I couldn't tell you, but I would recommend you be grateful for it, instead of upset at where the industry is heading because chances are, no matter what you do, you can't change it and won't like it. These 18"+ offerings from Asus, Acer, and MSI, are more publicity stunts than an attempt at capturing a market, which is why even though there are now 4 1080 sli laptops available, the Clevo is the only one that looks like it was a true effort at enthusiasts and not mostly marketing flash. I can't even imagine the looks I would get if I owned the Acer 21x, it looks absurd. But it made many people watching that event consider Acer for a gaming laptop if they can do something that "impressive".

High standards are great when your in control of the result, otherwise your just going to be disappointed. Your refusal to buy their product on moral grounds or whatever is offset by the 10x as many people who buy into this weeks buzzwords, all these brands are growing, not shrinking.

 

I think you made @D2 Ultima 's point for him.

Although I don't agree with that conclusion, or the assessment of all marketing flash as being the motivation for the 18" laptops, mine performed awesomely great, as good or better than the PM870 980m SLI model.

I think there is a little "pixie dust" in the eye's of Clevo enthusiasts because they have 91w CPU's, which is all that is really different.

The rest of us non-Clevo users with mundane 45w CPU's game just fine using the same GPU's.

My GT80 ran as well as the average OC'd PM870 980m SLI benchmarks posted. My CPU often won the Physics test even against the 6700k at stock to average OC ranges.
http://www.3dmark.com/fs/5708173

Extreme OC P870DM 980m SLI benchmarks were faster than my GT80, but I didn't unlock the vbios either, or benchmark it while running on top of a forced air-conditioner cooler, and in gaming that difference was unsustainable or when tuned to gaming stable settings, unnoticeable.

The cooling of the new Clevo P870DM3 like the previous model DM needs help at the beginning of the production run, I am sure Clevo will work out the initial production glitches, but for now I would wait on getting a PM870DM3.

All in all the Clevo mystique is just that, ethereal, or imaginary in practical use.

 

Oh, I most certainly understand their motives. More than a lot of people, too.

Yup, I know this. And it is indeed unacceptable, but when you don't have a choice in the matter to fulfill your needs, there's little you can do.

Here you get into the meat of the problem. The problem is that people expect laptops to be shafted, crappy, sub-standard, and generally worse than a basic desktop. And when it happens, nobody speaks out about it. The problem does NOT start and end at the OEMs/ODMs. It is fueled by the reviewers who skirt the truth, outright lie, or say things are fine when they're not. For example, let's look at Linus. Every single review Linus does of any Razer laptop indicates he thinks it's perfectly fine and he gives it flying colours. Then let's look at this video:


He reviews the P870DM and literally the first thing he says is that his blade runs hot, loud, and thermal throttles. Where was that in the review video? Why does that need nearly a year after the review is done to pass to get mentioned? They know exactly what they're saying, and what they're doing, and if they don't, and they sit there and look at GPU-Z pumping out a max temp reading for a 1060 as 95c and saying "well it didn't appear to throttle so that's fine" like that one review of the Gigabyte P55 V6, then they really shouldn't be reviewing these things in the first place.

And then the third stage of the issue, is that the general public agrees with and doesn't fight/question/demand higher quality standards. Users get the machines, and even if they have problems, will fight you to the bloody death to prove that their machine is "still fine", mainly because they spent a couple thousand on them. And then other people LISTEN.

It's a big self-fulfilling cycle/prophecy/something. OEMs/ODMs make sub-par something or other. Reviewers don't call it out. People have low expectations/standards, get it, say it's fine/laptops do that/etc. OEMs/ODMs cut costs/corners more. Reviewers don't call it out. People get it and expect that it'll be sub-par, and if it is, they think it's fine because that's how it is. It's a huge cycle that needs to stop. And I will forever curse the fact that I've got not enough clout to make a difference in peoples' minds. It has to start SOMEWHERE.

Maybe if people stop expecting that things will suck, and start returning machines and doing more research before buying, we'll see OEMs/ODMs actually put in some more work for their dollar. Maybe if reviewers start calling out thermal-limit machines and badly-performing machines, and make the public believe that things aren't acceptable, things might change. Maybe if people stop rating laptops higher because the outward look and feel is nice when the internals are a mess, we might get somewhere. You don't even need to disregard the externals... a simple statement like "the exterior looks and feels amazing and sleek, and it was a joy to behold. But the issues with the cooling system and the problems getting any access to the fans etc for maintenance aren't made up for by the nice exterior design" should be MORE than adequate.

And on that topic, I've never ACTUALLY seen a "gaming laptop" get an outright bad review, now that I think of it. Every laptop has its good points shown and generally gets rated as "good" or better. Something can't be right here. I know other hardware gets bad/not-recommended ratings. I've seen mice get it, I've seen desk mics get it, I've seen headsets get it. I don't get why laptops can't.

Just so you know, "TDP rating" on CPUs is more of a guideline. Unless it's a TDP-locked low-power part generally designed for OEMs like the i7-6700T, many CPUs often sit far below, or far higher than their rated TDP. The haswell HQ chips that people had so many throttling issues with were one example of chips that sat above, which is why they throttled. The 6700HQ and 6700K are examples of chips that sit well below on average. I'd actually be hard-pressed to make a 6700K pull 91W at stock in any realistic scenario. My undervolted 4800MQ, however, is a different story with it easily pulling 47W often depending on what I'm doing.

Also, I want to make one thing clear. I do NOT care about extreme benchmarks/overclocking when it comes to gaming performance, if I ever mention overclocking. I'm pretty certain I can find an A/C vent and shove the open back of my system into it and bench at some pretty decent clockspeeds, but that doesn't help me for gaming (even in a cooler room) where I'd use lower clock bumps. Benching is fun and all and I'm not going to disregard it as a hobby, or even sport for many. But it has little to do with gaming performance/usage when testing extreme overclocks.

 

The GT80 is closer to enthusiast than the others, MSI is closer to what people want than Acer or Asus as they still use MXM cards etc. I wasn't trying to bash your purchase, all the options do yield incredible performance. MSI just has no interest in putting in a socketed cpu, in this case that doesn't mean it can't perform well.

My point of contention with D2's arguement lies in where he said "laptop users need to stop being screwed over". As if we have a say in the matter. I agree with his discontent, I'm just saying realistically, its becoming the norm, best get used to it unless you can start changing hundreds of thousands of buyers minds and soon.

 

Well said. I agree. I'm not saying to stop trying, I sure won't. I just meant to curb your expectations. I can't stand Linus's reviews of the really high end gaming machines. He has never even mentioned a Sager is a Clevo, and doesn't really give negative reviews of gaming laptops at all like you were saying. Clevo doesn't really have PR in the U.S. It be cool if the big reviewers (and better ones than Linus perhaps) could give reviews of their units. I don't know if you've watched mobile tech review, but I at least like that she puts products head to head and directly compares their strengths and weaknesses, something I wish more people would do.

 

Although I haven't used it the benchmarks and thermal results of the GX700, and two versions of the GX800 - the 980 SLI and the new 1080 SLI, all show a commitment to powering through the design issues and providing a continuing line of water-cooled enthusiast laptops.

The GX800 was the fastest performing 980 SLI laptop, with way lower temperatures than anything else that came close.

The GX800 1080 SLI reviews I have seen have been with pre-production units using 230w x 2 instead of the production 2 x 330w psu's, but even so the gaming results are on par and better than desktop 1080 SLI results, and at temperatures 20c below those desktop 1080's, that's truly a gaming enthusiast driven laptop.

Again, the 91w CPU doesn't add enough to make the whole ordeal of the fan noise and thermals worth while.

It's going to take something more impressive in technological advancement than sticking a desktop CPU in a laptop to sway my admiration.

The Asus water-cooling system is one such impressive technological achievement. I can admire their engineering dedication to the whole system to get it optimized, commercialized, and into 3 generations of production (2.5 generations right now).

I really see Asus and MSI pushing the boundaries of what is possible in hardware development for the gaming enthusiast, not Clevo, not at all really.

 

To be fair, although I enjoy Linus and his videos, he really isn't catering to the CPU enthusiast market, certainly not for laptops - he's said as much, he doesn't get the need for behemoth laptops.

Linus has also said if he gets a product (laptop) that he would have to give a bad review, he doesn't finish or publish the review.

With Linus's usage his Razer doesn't overheat - he doesn't really do much on it to need that level of GPU, so his review doesn't reflect what others found to be true, the Razer's have terrible thermal handling abilities.

Linus does understand proper cooling, check out his water cooled Macintosh (immersion in a pan of water), but his usage doesn't push the limits of performance even in a slim gaming laptop.

He hasn't been presented with the challenges of HPC computing and how to go about even getting a handle on making that P870DM3 sit up and beg for more.

We can't expect much in the way of great reviews for laptops that need additional tuning out of the box for optimal performance from the average youtube reviewer.

Lisa of @mobiletechreview @pdagal does a great job, and it would be fun to see her take on the challenges in reviewing a Clevo P870DM3 1080 SLI vs a MSI GT83S 1080 SLI - I know I'd watch

 

The Asus performs well due to the water cooling, which its that companies gimmick. Sure it works well, but it is quite unwieldy and flashy. Please stop giving numbers about the machines performance, I already acknowledged they work, I understand. I'm saying that's merely second to the publicity they get from it.

His reviews are fine, and interesting, I do watch them. But I'm also familiar with more than the laptop market. The headphone and smartphone market are also areas I know a lot about and those reviews also miss something. For instance his ie800 review, he uses them with an iPhone... He didn't even mention that they make absolutely no sense to purchase without a DAC. I have a pair, so I am saying this first hand, the difference is night and day, and its what they are meant for. Someone else here also said he thought that everyone knows Sager is Clevo, which is totally not true, I've known Sager owners who didn't know that. He just seems to gloss over info sometimes and it irks me.

Is that Lisa's username on this forum? I didn't know she visited here that's awesome! Another plus for her lol. I just want her to review the uncommon put affordable gaming machines, so instead of the MSI GS63, the Gigabyte P35X V6, or Clevo P650RS.

 

Yeah, this is why I keep aggressively pushing about these machines. I figure even if it's small, as long as I get people to understand and raise their standards, it'll at least make somewhat of a rolling change.

I should stop being lazy and start a blog for real >_<

 

I think you are wrong headed there, that's not at all what Asus is about, or has been about since their inception.

Having worked directly with support at Asus, their Engineer and Marketing, and seeing Asus presentations by their engineers and management over many years, they are all dedicated to getting the best performance for gaming enthusiasts, not flash.

Do they add pizzazz to their presentations and their laptops exterior design, yes, they try, but truly that isn't what goes on the inside, and that stuff inside works very well.

The water-cooling isn't a gimmick in a laptop anymore than it is a gimmick in the desktop cooling of CPU and GPU, it's a big win for reducing thermals and extending the life of components - unless you spring a leak and have a conductive coolant.

IDK why these water-cooling outfits don't all insist on non-conductive coolants, as they have been available for as long as I can remember, and that's a long time. They are a little pricey but in quantity and under constant demand the manufacturers could improve production costs and make it even cheaper.

Forget the colored water and lighting effects, and grandiose tubing and reservoirs, those are a lot of "show" added over the top of the "go", and Asus didn't add any of that flash to the water-cooling dock.

I understand Clevo doesn't have water-cooling, so you have to dis it to protect the Clevo mystique.

Asus really put some dedicated design time and production effort into the GX800, and I think the result is worthy of admiration.

And, I really think everyone that dis's this is missing out on the "wave" of the future, to pun a phrase, as with ever increasing thermal output, these GPU's and CPU's need water-cooling to maintain continued performance increases.

 

Sigh, more power to you, but really it's not helping anyone to push their laptops out past design limits and keep it there, without actual benefits to usage.

My standards are incredibly high after many years of doing this, but I have also learned over time that diminishing returns aren't worth chasing, and to cut off time wasted on efforts that don't bear any useful fruits.

I don't want to discourage you, but I just don't think there is enough headroom in these designs to give you what you are looking for.

Try designing your own motherboards, GPU's, and support integration hardware, and advance things that way. Making the whole system support your design goals.

But, you will need to do it on your own, as pushing into those areas of diminishing returns is also not supported in design groups. They know too well how much $ can be wasted chasing the tail of performance past component design limits can be.

You probably need to design your own GPU's and CPU's too, as the built-in limits of those devices will put a ceiling on overall system performance.

Don't forget to add water-cooling, because those components are all going to start pushing the boundaries of the thermal abilities of a small case like a laptop for air-cooling only...

 

You have me labeled as a Clevo fanboy. I hold no brand loyalty to them, and I don't care about any mystique. My gripe with Asus is quality control, and pretty piss poor support (in comparison to MSI, idk about Acer). They have been disappointing in many of their offerings (notable exceptions include the UX501, and GL502, although even the GL502 they lied in marketing saying the 1070 version is .92 inches when its 1.2"). I will make a correction though, I forgot the GX800 has MXM modules, so good on them for that. Once again, let me repeat for the third time. I am not saying the machines fail to perform. The MSI and Acer have mechanical keyboards, the Clevo (with Prema) and the Asus have extreme overclocking ability. They all contain powerful 1080 sli. But I can't say they are all truly designed for enthusiasts all the way. I'm reluctant to do that without a socketed cpu. The Asus is definitely close though, it has great storage and ram options as well.

Release a laptop with a socketed cpu, gpus, and lots of ram and storage options, without some stupid crippling bios, and the P870 will have real competition for enthusiasts.

I also don't know who in their right mind would ever tell you otherwise when you spoke with Asus, of course that's what they would tell you, and probably what their engineers do, but seriously, they are concerned with beating competition more than pleasing consumers. Any intelligent business is, and Asus is one of them. It's be stupid to focus otherwise, they'll sell very very very few compared to other models. At least they still have a headphone jack

 

Again, you are stuck on enthusiast "all the way" as requiring a desktop CPU, as there are no longer any laptop socketed CPU's being offered it has to be a desktop CPU.

I don't see a desktop CPU as a requirement at all for being an gaming enthusiast laptop, and that's where we differ.

The 45w/47w laptop CPU's haven't limited them from performing in GPU intensive games as well as the 91w desktop CPU's in laptops.

I think what keeps you guys going in that vein of thinking is that you can benchmark CPU scores higher. But, that's it.

For real world usage in games and applications the 45w CPU's work fine.

There may be rendering, or batch computational jobs that can benefit from a desktop CPU, but I wouldn't run that in a laptop, the cooling requirements would run the fans at a non-human friendly level.

I don't think you have a realistic view of what is really needed in a gaming laptop to be called an enthusiast laptop.

The minor marketing and glitz these companies have added to increase sales has worked at bringing in new gaming enthusiasts to the market, but they haven't stopped driving technical innovation and hardware advancement.

I don't think you are a Clevo fanboy either, you just talk like one, but that's because you are around the Clevo fanboy's so much here, and have taken on the socketed CPU banner as your enthusiast level rating.

Nothing wrong with that, but you were starting to spout the other quotes they use, which aren't correct or founded in reality. Like MSI and Asus are all glitz and marketing hype, and they only do these things for attention, not for the "enthusiast" benefit, that's completely incorrect.

Asus / MSI, and the other innovative Gaming laptop makers do these technology advancements for gaming enthusiasts to give them a better gaming experience, just like we want them to be doing with their engineering talents.

It's really not required to have a 91w desktop CPU in a laptop, it's fun, but not required.

If Asus thought it was worthwhile putting a 91w CPU in their tour 'de force GX800, they would have done it. But Asus didn't do that because the power and thermal requirements outweigh the benefits.

I think Asus is looking to the future where water-cooling will be a needed advancement to keep laptop performance increasing with the hotter and hotter CPU / GPU components.

I also think Asus plans to optimize the technology and put it as deep into their gaming laptop lineup as necessary for improved performance, to differentiate their laptop performance from the air-cooled competition.

The Pascal GPU thermals should be a wake up call for all laptop makers, they need to start developing better cooling solutions, and one of the easiest and longest time tested methods is liquid cooling.

 

I just posted this in the GS43VR owner's lounge, but since we were discussing it earlier here and some folks had questions on temps and performance, I thought I'd share here as well. I just played about 4.5 hours of Deus Ex: Mankind Divided on my GS43VR (big mistake on a Monday night, so gonna regret it when I wake up ). The good news is that this time, I got Fraps to log the FPS and integrate with HWinfo64. So here is some data on performance, temps, and usage.

Caveats:

• The ambient temperature is ~25.5 C
  
• IC Diamond Thermal Compound has been applied to the CPU + GPU
• The laptop is elevated on a metal mesh laptop stand
• The GPU core has been overclocked +100 MHz, and the GPU memory has been overclocked +200 MHz
• The CPU core and CPU cache have both been undervolted by -170.9 mV
• I play Deus Ex: Mankind Divided at 1080p with all the settings set to max, except that Depth of Field is set to "on", and the following settings are turned off: MSAA, Vsync, Stereoscopic 3D, Contact Hardening Shadows, Cloth Physics, and Subsurface Scattering. (I'm not running the beta DX12 support either.)
• There is no set FPS limit.

So without further ado, here are some key results from my 4.5-hour playthrough of Deus Ex: Mankind Divided.

1. FPS
   1. Average: 66.4 FPS
2. GPU temperature
   • Average: 74.1 C
   • Maximum: 76 C
3. GPU Core Usage
   • Average: 93.7% (it usually stayed at or near 99%, but there are a few statistical outliers when it dropped significantly that appear to drag down the average)
4. GPU Memory Usage
   1. Average: 82.4% (it usually stayed in the mid-to-high 80s)
5. CPU Temperature
   1. Average: 65.5 C
   2. Maximum: 71 C
6. CPU Usage
   1. Average: 42.9%
   2. Maximum: 87.8%

I'm kinda amazed by these results. This is the second time I've played it OCed, though the first time to get the FPS logged correctly, and the first time I've played since undervolting the CPU. Last time I played the temps were a few degrees hotter - I imagine the difference here is because the ambient temperature is a couple degrees lower than the last time I played and because of the CPU undervolt. Regardless, I'm pretty happy it's cooling and performing this well.

 

These days, I'm considering high powered CPU and GPU in a laptop due to rendering programs such as 3d studio MAx.
I realize that people say desktops would be better for this... however, I like the portability of a laptop and using it wherever it is needed (without being fixed to 1 location).

High powered CPU's and GPU's are more than doable in laptops... it is the laptop makers who hadn't really lifted a finger to redesign the cooling in laptops for about 2 decades now (which is absurd) because they want to save as much in terms of costs as possible... even though better solutions could also cost less, and we know that lower manuf. costs do not translate to lower general costs for consumers.

What I don't exactly like about laptops is Nvidia which is focusing too much on the here and now and pays little or no attention to the future such as DX12 and Vulkan.

 

I'm sorry, but are there Clevo's already shipped with the 120hz panel? I haven''t seen them anywhere. The MSI one claims 94% NTSC colour also, and from the view angle it should be IPS like. Do you know if the AUO Clavo panel ist TN or IPS? This will be one of my main decisive factor, so i'm really interested in who has the best panel.