Pascal: What do we know? Discussion, Latest News & Updates: 1000M Series GPU's

Sweet, I assumed that but hadn't heard any concrete details or anything. That's pretty cool.

I believe you're right, but I think Nvidia explicitly meant that display ratio also supporting G-Sync. I could be wrong!

 

You are making uninformed statements that are inaccurate in many respects, but based on your own perception of value. That's not a slam. That's normal human behavior. Whether or not it is worth it is determined based upon what the buying customer values.

For enthusiasts that are only interested in legitimate DTR systems that are capable of doing everything we task them for, going BGA will never be an acceptable option. One of the reasons for that is BGA is inferior in form, functionality and performance. The CPUs alone are anemic in comparison to the socketed unlocked desktop CPUs. They lack horsepower producing TDP are locked down in too many ways to make embracing them an option. So, the choice for us it is super easy... reject it completely. It's unacceptable and not a viable option to be considered.

Those that don't mind saving money and settling for substantially less are certainly free to do so. It's their money. That's fine as long as there are options available to suit every preference. The absence of acceptable alternative leaves those of us that are not willing to compromise, angry, extremely unhappy and turned off with the lackluster options. Under those horrible conditions we are naturally more inclined to rail on the lowest common denominators in notebooks and become extraordinarily critical due to insufficient alternatives.

If we get the robust options we require, then we don't give a rat's butt about the buying decisions made by rest of the world. They don't affect us as long as we have good options that meet our expectations. There would be no legitimate excuse for BGA becoming the only option, but it looks like the mostly retarded crackerbox OEMs are all moving that direction. I will not compromise on this... period... ever. It has nothing to do with hate or contempt for consumers that think BGA is OK. It has everything to do with lack of acceptable options and zero tolerance for cheap garbage. Yes, we do have massive hatred for the OEMs that have sold out and do not offer acceptable options to the customers that require them.

 

Don't turn this into a BGA bashing thread please. Stay on topic of Pascal.

 

Even though I would prefer a 6700k, my 6920HQ can do 4.1 to 4.2ghz stable with no throttling; I cant complain, games wont need more than that for a while. I understand the BGA hate, but think its being a tad bit overblown. You want insane power and to squeeze out every ounce? Desktop!

as for pascal, I'm trying to open MSI up and tell me when we will see upgrade kits/dual psu adapters

 

If Pascal is being released in a BGA form, then it is on topic. It's not bashing when someone expresses an opinion that BGA is unacceptable garbage. It's an opinion, and if it is quantified with a basis for it then it's enlightening and educational for those that don't know any better.

We cannot have milktoast answers for serious questions like these, presented by people that deserve straight answers... If we do that, we facilitate the plaque that is tarnishing the industry.

 

_______________________________

"Pascal? What is that? Are you asking about an employee here? I don't know who that is...."

(actual answer given by HP representative working in local Best Buy store where I live when asked if the new Pascal-based GPU laptops were in store to look it yesterday).

 

Oh really...... I am gonna ask for benchmarks. Hey @Mr. Fox @Papusan , you guys got any 4.8ghz 6700k Cinebench scores?

Kaby Lake should work on Z170 I believe. Its more that the mobile CPUs are absolute trash when compared with proper desktop CPUs.
Did any BGA laptop CPU ever beat a properly OCed 6700k? A 4960x? A e5 1680v2? I dont think so.

If intel refuses to produce socketed chips, well, the enterprise/HPC market is really really not gonna be happy IMO....and I doubt intel is that stupid.

As for MXM Pascals, well, nvidia sure made an absolute mess this time.

Letting OEMs make their own designs means probably no real guideline to be followed except it works in your machine. Also this desktop/laptop things is gonna be pretty much purely for marketing reasons.

Edit: Sorry @Ethrem

 

Well, this whole thing seems to explain why HP came out with their new Omen line, and why the 30% off coupons are not valid with the new Omens. You could customize a Pavilion to almost identical specs at a very similar price. It looks like the Omens will soon be getting something the Pavilions will not....

 

Aaah, if it's 1440p with GSYNC then indeed I haven't seen that before. That might be an interesting proposition I'm really hoping to get a 1060 with a nice display: either OLED, high hertz, GSYNC or better yet some combination thereof!

 

Sure... lots of them. Here's just one.



Edit: Oh, wait. Sorry. That was my laptop with a 4960X. Here's a 6700K example. And, @Papusan can beat that. I haven't seen a BGA CPU that can.

 

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Thanks for the info. Much appreciated.
Please forgive my lack of knowledge here and for straying off-topic re: Pascal, but the point has already been raised, and I for one am wanting to know as to non-BGA laptops, what and where are they?
It has been said that AW and MSI are examples of the cheaper BGA manufacturing.
Are we talking only about Clevo motherboards?
What about Sager/Prostar machines?
Are they BGA too?
What Laptops aren't?
My understanding of BGA machines is very limited, and if what you say is true regarding BGA manufactured Laptops is true, then I definitely want to where to steer clear of them when I get my new Pascal-based Laptop soon.

***sorry about this Mods, but this is a teachable moment for guys like myself who don't know the answer about this, and want to know.

 

Yeah, that cannot be the only answer. Being content is fine. Nothing wrong with being content. If being forced into accepting less becomes the only option, the industry will never recover from that kind of compromise. Notebooks will forever remain on the receiving end of harsh jokes by desktop elitists... and for very good reason. They will be worthy of that criticism with no examples that break the paradigm and prove the haters wrong. @D2 Ultima has to deal with that crap daily and we don't want them to have more good ammunition to support their ignorance.

 

I believe they're only available in China - I only learnt of them when I did market research on gaming laptops in China.

 

No reason for apology. I'm glad you asked and think doing so is a very smart thing to do. Asking questions is the first step in making informed decisions. Everyone enters the world as a naked noob that doesn't have all the answers. That smack on the bottom is what causes us to take our first breath of air.

MSI's high end notebooks have MXM video cards, but BGA CPUs. Many of us hope to see MSI get with the program and offer good CPU options as well. If they do so it will take them to a whole new level. Alienware used to manufacture the best machines the industry had to offer, but that is no longer accurate. It hasn't been for several years now. They have lost their way. They are all BGA CPU and GPU with severely gimped firmware and power handling limitations.

Clevo is the only company that still offers full configurable notebooks with socketed unlocked desktop CPUs and MXM cards. Eurocom, Sager, Prostar, Mythologic, Xotic, HIDevolution, FalconNW, AVA Direct, OriginPC, RJ Tech and a very long list of North American company names selling Clevo clones with their own boutique names attached to them. There are only 3 in North America (which I will not name here) that are direct Clevo distributors. The rest buy their Clevos from one of them and put their names on them. Same is probably true in other parts of the world. The thing that separates Clevos is whether or not they are @Prema partners. Those that are Prema partners offer Clevos machines that are fully unlocked and capable of delivering every ounce of power the hardware can offer. Those that are not sell the same hardware with performance limitations imposed by inferior firmware with many hidden menus and missing configuration options.

 

@Mr. Fox

What are you doing here? There is a thread to prepare back at base...

 

If you shall not compromise on it, that's entirely your choice. Some of us here don't live in North America where literally everything is cheap; some of us here don't earn a five-digit (or even four-digit) salary monthly; many of us have lives to live, and can't burn money on computers, which after all, lose their value very, very rapidly.

Unfortunately, the rhetoric expounded upon by our fellow users here borders on hostile behaviour on those who purchased BGA machines. It's one small step from 'BGA machines are crap' to 'those who purchased BGA machines have crap for brains'. I mean, I made one reply stating my view on the argument here, and @Ashtrix, @Papusan and you immediately jumped to the defence of socketed machines. I expect more users to follow. To me, it seems like buyer's remorse because all of you spent so much on a laptop.

If one truly has a need for such expensive systems, by all means, go ahead. But if he/she simply uses electricity to run benchmarks as a means to show off, then that's a massive waste of money.

I stand by my view that unless one requires the highest levels of unfettered, 24/7 performance, DTRs are pointless and a massive waste of money. They are barely portable, and, for secondary/tertiary/university students, not very useful. One would be better off building a desktop if he/she has to buy such expensive machines. For $3000, we can build top-of-the-line desktop systems.

 

Clevo (6700hq, gtx 1070, no storage, no RAM) for 6900zl (1800USD) in Poland
http://sklep.hyperbook.pl/laptop_customization.php?products_id=25982

 

Well, here's the news flash. Not everyone shares the same view. LOL. If you are advocating one way, one option, letting a few decide the destiny of all, and think your view is the only one that matters in the grand scheme of things... well.. that's not how we roll. But, I know you wouldn't do that. You seem way too intelligent to get caught up in that Nazi line of thinking. We need options... lots of them. Something for everyone.

 

Product not found

sent from Nexus 5X

 

You know I was talking about the CPU discussion. This is a Pascal thread, not a CPU thread so take the CPU discussion elsewhere please. Realistically Pascal being MXM or not doesn't matter in terms of performance and the way it's looking, the only advantage MXM will have is the ability to replace a failed card without replacing the motherboard so again, BGA bashing doesn't belong in this thread and if you feel that it needs to be talked about, you're more than welcome to make a BGA vs "MXM" Pascal performance thread when it releases.

 

looks like they're updating the store with new models right now
try http://sklep.hyperbook.pl/laptop_customization.php?products_id=25983

edit
dead already. it was 17.3" version, 50$ pricier than 15.6"

 

Though they still have a nice splashscreen image on their frontpage



http://www.hyperbook.pl/

 

Well its Good Price Hope http://pc-konsulten.se has smiliar Price becuse thats the store i will get it from if msi dont suprise Me with the prices

sent from Nexus 5X

 

Why should people buy something that deliver 20-50% lower processing performance than this, in an expensive high end laptop today or next year? They are being scammed by OEM's and Intel!!

 

We've hit 700 pages on the eve of Pascal mobile. I sense the end of this thread is near.

I'd be interested in this, especially in light of the conflicting reports in this thread over whether MXM vs BGA will make a difference in Pascal's performance.

 

For $3000... Not a top-o-the-line!! More like an average desktop.

 

This is the last post I'm making warning people to stay on topic of Pascal, anything after this that strays off topic will be removed and warnings will be sent out.

 

OK, forget I mentioned CPU. Apply most of it to GPU and the end result it exactly the same. Even if performance is hypothetically identical, you have to look at the big picture to make a wise decision. Motherboards with BGA processors, namely GPUs and specifically Pascal GPUs so we stay on topic, will be more expensive, repairs will be more complex, the service part availability on out of warranty systems will be determined by OEMs selling proprietary motherboards. Having the GPU mounted in an MXM slot takes care of most of those problems. And, for those so inclined, it can allow upgrades to new GPUs assuming the OEMs do not continue growing more evil and continue changing form factors as frequently as some folks change into clean socks. If they continue producing more proprietary garbage that blocks upgrades, you still have intelligent design and serviceability that remain very compelling arguments against BGA.

It's really not a hard decision, especially if the GPU is the only thing that matters to some people. Being able to buy one machine and upgrade the GPU for less than half the cost of a replacement can be a nice thing. Replacing the GPU in a motherboard no longer serviced instead of buying a new machine is a nice thing. The ability to replace only the GPU for substantially less than the cost of a motherboard with an integrated GPU if the motherboard is still available is also compelling. To some of us, those are basic requirements, not an optional feature.

This should be considered by anyone contemplating the purchase of a Pascal notebook.

 

I lay down for a nap and wake up to this!?!?

So I'll chime in. The reasons I do not like BGA for video cards is that they often restrict the firmware, then reduce the heat dissipation on the heatsink to just above spec. This effects overclocking and marches toward "lighter and thinner." It also means if a component fails, you replace all components and the mb with everything is now way more expensive because it isn't modular. It may even be more difficult to track down the failed components, for those willing to de-solder and replace, if so inclined. So bga gpus are limited by electricity for less overclocking, limited by heat ceiling, etc. I'm sure they have their benefit, like slightly less initial cost. But I'm personally not sold on it...

This isn't bashing, just explaining a point of view calmly without profanities...

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

 

We are at the end of upgradable laptops so that argument goes out of the window. The only advantage to getting an MXM machine now relates to replacing the GPU in the event of failure with the same GPU. MXM is EOL as we knew it, it's all proprietary garbage with an MXM slot much like ASUS has had for years.

 

Meanwhile, I'm wondering whether, since nvlink is not on these boards, if a Pascal refresh happens, these companies would consider two Pascal chips on a dual board for these laptops. This gets rid of the need for the sli cable, and has obvious other issues of component failure, but can usually reach higher than sli on efficiency, even though they historically run hot...

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

 

I don't see NVIDIA placing further investment in research & development of anything utilizing GDDR5 or GDDR5X beyond 2016. It's an obsolete technology for them.

Sometimes I hate how NVIDIA does things, but Jen-Hsun Huang is a smart man. He knows that HBM will allow exponential growth in the GPU market. Pascal was already in development back in 2014 when Maxwell launched. Companies invest in the research & development of technologies years prior to their release.

Volta is next. Maybe not 10nm Volta, but 16nm Volta is plausible for 2017.

 

Well, if too many people are willing to surrender and think it is OK to forfeit you could be right. But, I'm not going to do that. Plus, it's not an accurate statement for all machines. Only those with limited space. I don't like that I cannot install two 1080 GPUs in my 2.5 month old P870DM-G, but I can install one. That sure as hell isn't the upgrade I was hoping for, but it's still an upgrade. And, we don't know what the future holds for sure. All we can do is speculate. Saying we are at the end of upgradeable laptops is pure speculation. It may be the end for certain models that were yesterday's best, but it doesn't mean a new form factor will not become a defacto standard as the MXM we all know and love has been for more years than some gamers are old enough to remember. Things are changing. If we don't all be smart, vote with our wallets and start drawing lines in the sand, the greedy OEMs are going to win this war without firing a single shot. And, it will be the collective fault of ignorant consumers for not taking a hardline no-compromise stand against their nonsense. Alienware got away with it. They refused to pay attention to their most loyal customer base. Now they need to pay for it, and they are paying for it. They are the butt of more jokes than ever before now. It used to be about high prices. Now it's about the fact that all they are selling is garbage. Do we really want to see this cancer metastasize? I sure don't.

 

This is a bit misleading. Soldered graphics card is the general rule in thin laptops. With thinner laptops follows also weaker cooling. Quite simple... A laptop with mmx is often thicker and has better cooling aka bigger heatsink. In second round ... Less opportunity to achieve the highest possible overclocking on your graphics card. Just look at Futuremark's database of bench results!!

 

But by continuing to support Clevo despite being upset that they have essentially put your 2.5 month laptop EOL in terms of what you expected which was an SLI machine with a desktop chip, you're being a hypocrite because Clevo *could* have made your machine SLI compatible for Pascal, they chose not to and changed the board design. They put all of their old machines at EOL. It doesn't matter that I have MXM because my machine won't support the new MXM cards. They're going to have to change the design for HBM again so Pascal could well be the end of the line for you as well.

 

That is quite disappointing.

Anyway, I think the whole BGA discussion is relevant to Pascal, or any GPU architecture for that matter. I hardly see it as off-topic. It is important for us to share what we know, so that the average consumer may see what is changing and, at the very least, be informed when he or she makes a decision to purchase one system over another.

 

Bull. ASUS machines have their funky MXM cards and they are known for poor cooling. MXM does not translate to anything other than the ability to replace the graphics card. It's not an indicator of anything else.

 

NVLink was never meant for consumer applications if i am not mistaken.

 

Interesting comments.

Correction. It's the end of the line for the P870DM-G only if 1080 SLI is desired. It doesn't mean that a HBM version with Volta won't fit in SLI, or that such a product won't fit in other single GPU machines that are currently being left out in the cold. It may mean I have to skip a generation to get what I want. Again, pure speculation on your part and mine.

The only hypocrites are those willing to surrender and accept BGA as an acceptable design on expensive so-called "high performance" notebooks. Call it MXM, next gen graphics slots, whatever you wish. Quality products are built with a modular design and remain serviceable rather than disposable.

I am not going to be a shill for any brand. In fact, I don't care about brand, but I do care about the behavior exhibited by some brands. I hate the behavior exhibited by some brands, love the behavior exhibited by others. My support for Clevo (or MSI and potentially other OEMs if they will wise up and start using socketed unlocked desktop CPUs) has been, and will continue to be, contingent upon on their behavior, business decisions and how their actions align with my values. When they deviate, support is withdrawn. If they fall back into compliance, forgiveness is granted and support follows. This applies to all virtually areas of life, not just computers. Stop feeding the pig and it will learn to listen or die of starvation.

Caveat emptor applies to all, and it takes no prisoners. The rain falls on the just and the unjust.

 

You may be correct. I was throwing it out partly in jest to get card speculation going or what we may want to see. Without the nvlink to the cpu, the main benefit, faster connect than pcie, is lost, although faster speaking between cards does have it's own benefits...

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

 

The funny thing is that we agree on most of it. The difference is that I won't be giving Clevo any of my money and I'm going pure desktop. It used to be that a Clevo machine was EOL without a modded sBIOS to support new cards, now that there's a way around that, they killed all their old machines with a custom board design. It's definitely not a coincidence that anything older than a DM can't be physically upgraded with a Clevo card. Clevo has to make back the money for R&D by new machine sales after all.

The reason I didn't want this discussion to happen in this thread? We just buried all of the information that we had on pricing and other information that was leaked out.

 

Actually, we are on exactly the same path there as well. I intend to do that as well. I will not accept less for the same or higher price from any manufacturer. I am voting with my wallet and encourage others to join us. Gimping is never acceptable, no matter what form it takes. Forgiveness awaits them if they make wise decisions in the future. If not, well then screw 'em.

 

Oh.. that will be mine.. oh yes..

 

So you mean that laptops with soldered graphics will give about same high max overclock and will be at the top in Futuremark's benchmark leaderboard? We'll see if mmx vs BGA will have roughly the same advantage in Overclocking and hardware cooling soon.

 

Clevo make HW for Hasee actually,clevo make the barebone ,and hasee has its own factory to assemble parts to a computer
here is hasee's price
1USD=6.7 RMB

 

Razer shoving a 1060 in the same chassis as the Blade 2016 makes me nervous, given that Pascal mobile is expected to be a fair amount hotter than Maxwell. I'd wait to see reviews before buying a new Blade... or any 14" laptop with a Pascal GPU, for that matter.

 

Have you seen anything concrete about Pascal being hotter than Maxwell? I haven't, and I'm genuinely curious where this rumor started. Pretty much everyone is shoving the 1060 into the same chassis that carried the 970M (Razer, MSI GS43/63, ASUS 502 and more) from what we've seen, so I continue to be surprised by this view.

 

Very interesting. Thank you.

Here are prices converted to USD:

Clevo P655RP6 - GTX 1060 - $1,194
Clevo P650RP - GTX 1060 - $1,343
Clevo P650RS - GTX 1070 - $1,642

Clevo P751DM2 - GTX 1060 - $1,194
Clevo P752DM2 - GTX 1070 - $1,940

Clevo P775DM2 - GTX 1060 - $1,641
Clevo P775DM2 - GTX 1070 - $2,089

Clevo P870DM2 - GTX 1070 - $2,537
Clevo P870DM2 - GTX 1080 - $3,134

Clevo P870DM3 - GTX 1070 SLI - $4,627
Clevo P870DM3 - GTX 1080 SLI - $7,611

 

This was refreshing to see.

The problem is what do you do when you are a programmer or a dev and you need most power on the go?

How can we, the biggest market for their cards stop buying when we need those?

Should we just buy small desktops? I mean that is the problem, that we actually need those high performance laptops.

BTW, I'm totally against BGA as a principle of life, be it on GPU or on CPU. But this much I can say: They changed the design of GPUs they put in BGA form to allow for lower temps. Not only the BIOS is locked, but the GPU itself performs worse than it's socketed counterpart.

There are customers that don't have access to this information before they buy. That is the sad part. I bought a laptop, very expensive in Romania, and I did not know, and I read everything. But nowehre, no one said that BGA will be like this.

P.S. Romania has a minimum wage of 300 USD per month, let that sink in for a few seconds. Best sold laptops are few first the ones with no GPU, and after them, mostly 15.6 expensive laptops marketed as "gaming" laptops, but too many buyers don't have the technical knowledge to make an educated decision.

The problem is that the more this continues, the more people will buy those, have to replace them, and ultimately be unhappy with the whole product cycle.

It's not like I don't get why BGA exists, it's okay. We just need a top tier laptop shape that can satisfy enthusiast / developer needs. Workstations are not the answer, many of them are BGA too.

Now the real problem is the amount paid for said computer. P870 is fully modular. Display can be replaced in 5 minutes, CPU, GPU, everything else can be replaced in ~10 minutes. I don't want to invest this much and have it junk in a few years, even if I won't use it anymore, I might want to give it to someone to use it, but it's sad if bought for around 3000 USD and can't be repaired. Then again, I might sell if after an year, so I'm just a hypocrite who just wants best power possible to me because I need that power and don't want that power to get lost in BGA...

On the other hand, GPUs are getting stronger, so even a BGA 1070 should beat an 980 desktop, so, I'm happy for everyone who has access to this power

Sorry if it seems off topic.

 

Well we know that desktop Pascal cards run hotter than their Maxwell counterparts, but I'll let the thermal experts like @D2 Ultima and Ethrem weigh in on their thoughts about all these 14" laptops with Pascal 1060s, if they'd like to.