Pascal: What do we know? Discussion, Latest News & Updates: 1000M Series GPU's

It's all twisting your melon man! ;-)

 

Being first is being cool... or so I'm told.

 

Did Jen Hsun Huang tell you that?

 

It will be around the 1070 in regards to performance. Just have to wait and see.

NVIDIA has been striving to make desktop and their mobile counterparts match in regards to performance. For example, the goal would be to make a 1070M perform similar to a 1070, but speaking realistically, that's never going to happen for many reasons. So, you can almost always expect the top-tier mobile GPU to perform like the second-tier desktop GPU.*

*How it's pretty much always been and will be until Volta in 2018 or early 2019.

 

I think the founders edition will be the default reference card available with a cooling system. The 599 one could be only the Card without fan/heatsink that will be targeted to the third party vendors to add their coiling design on to it, or to people who do water cooling.

 

The Founders edition = Reference edition. Just buy the Reference edition.

I'd honestly wait for a Kingpin or something along those lines. It will be beefed up. Then again, the 1080Ti is going to be very nice, and probably around $799, so that may actually be worth waiting for... All depends on your budget and what you have now. If you have a 980/980Ti now, sure as hell better wait unless you have the money to blow.

 

Don't forget, you need to wait for a vendor with using more than 8pin connector too if you want to OC like a boss. Gamers Nexus already spent through all the available power attaching it to a hybrid AIO.
I'm keeping my money in my wallet till I'm wow'd.

 

Considering the overclockability of the 1080 on the reference cooler design, a Hybrid edition should be quite impressive in that regard.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...e-launch-imminent.790770/page-3#post-10259057

Some videos if you haven't seen them.

 

No!

 

So many videos...

Too hot to update SLI & vRAM guides...

Too lazy to update when it's not too hot to update...

I guess people will need to wait or actually use NBR then.

 

From what I read in every sane place, The +100 edition is exactly the same card, but arrives earlier, first batches sell a bit more expensive for exclusivity.

Second thing. Dude, that water cooling made literally no difference. I expected at least a bit of a difference, but nothing. It is almost like it is better with stock cooling.

 

Kidding right? Did you not see the part where it doesn't temp throttle like the e̶a̶r̶l̶y̶ ̶b̶i̶r̶d̶ r̶e̶f̶e̶r̶e̶n̶c̶e̶ founders edition coolers. He can sit there with that overclock 24/7.
No good having an overclock that's going to hit 83 degree and throttle in under 5 minutes.

 

He didn't make the success of the water-cooling/Hybrid too clear did he?

It was very successful. It stopped the throttling under load, check the Spoiler at the bottom of my posting, the graph shows that the air-cooled mode throttled under load, while the blue line for the water-cooling/hybrid result was steady at the higher 2164mhz clock.

The water-cooling/hybrid mode GPU clock reached a stable 2164mhz OC, while the air-cooled mode was only stable at 2025mhz OC.

And, most importantly, the OC FPS on water-cooling/Hybrid mode was even higher and stable during long gaming sessions than the stock clock result of the air-cooled mode.

He compared the delta at 2025mhz OC vs 2164mhz OC, which was silly, as the previous OC @ 2025mhz wasn't stable under load over time, it would throttle as soon as the heat loaded up the cooler and the temperature rose to 82c throttling point, while the water-cooling/Hybrid mode was completely stable and running at a much lower temperature.

And, the OC from stock air-cooled to water-cooling/Hybrid was awesome, especially the 4k ones, adding 10-15fps which put them all solidly over 60fps for the most part. And, with the water-cooling/Hybrid OC stable for long gaming sessions.

The water-cooling/Hybrid mode high-lighted that with adequate cooling, the Founders Edition is power limited and can't take full advantage of the water-cooling/Hybrid setup, the OC is power limited.

Nvidia needs to add back another 6-pin or 8-pin plug to provide enough power to fully OC.

 

He might be referring to the fact that the overclocked on air 1080 performed only a couple of frames per second slower than the overclocked on water 1080 - diminishing returns at such high clocks even if overclock is held rock steady when under water. But, if I was to buy a 1080 I would for sure buy an aftermarket card with excellent cooling & possible one with better & increased power delivery - afterall I'd want to get the max out of it, and I would want those boost clocks stable.

 

This is exactly what I meant.

Well, at any point I am clearly getting an aftermarket version if all tests will result that 1080 does throttle when oc.

I think that laptops will start coming more and more with water cooling soon, maybe a bit thicker, so that could be solving the problem for laptops.

As far as PC goes, I am pretty sure that everything will be fine with a good clean cooler. I cannot really understand what does the acrylic glass do. I mean, would not the cooling be faster without that glass ?

 

Yep, definitely get an aftermarket version. I don't think laptops will start using water cooling though - it's complicated, expensive, and could perhaps mean huge disaster if it leaks when being damaged after being tossed around like laptops are sometimes. That acrylic on the cooler, I think that's just a window to look through as part of the design, I don't think it comes into play in terms of cooling performance, it's just part of the shroud.

 

Yeah, I was scratching my head here too. He went to all that effort to eliminate variables with the TIM etc. and then did that.
Non the less, he made an interesting video and some nice discoveries for us all.

UPDATE: @Georgel - Right I see what you were getting at. Yeah, if the fans can keep the card below the threshold there isn't much value in moving to water.
Especially now we know the power limitations will reign in the fun prematurely.

 

The stock card is useless except in a few cases...

The backblower is nice because it vents all the heat directly outside of the case. The custom AIB twinfans vents them inside the case. Which might be a problem if you SLI them in small confined space.

 

It was/is an awesome effort, and high-lighted all the problems with the Founders Edition cooling and lack of power to fully OC.

The Pascal 16nm "lower power" moniker isn't helping.

The 1080 may be cooler and drawing less power per transister, but the overall effect of massively up-scaling the transistors to increase performance has eclipsed the power-savings and created a much more power hungry card than the 980 it is replacing.

He didn't mention the power draw at 2164mhz OC, but said he had to reduce the VRAM clock to free up power to increase the GPU core clock.

Whatever power draw that represents is the maximum cooling capacity on air-cooling, and that is all the 8-pin power feed was designed to provide, water-cooling needs more power

 

But the air-cooling fan isn't keeping it cool enough at the maximum attainable OC, it's thermal throttling at 82c, reducing the clock enough to drop the temperature briefly, only to repeatedly drop the clock again as the temperature almost immediately hits 82c again.



The core clock fluctuates as it hits 82c, which a lot of benchmark video reviewers have pointed out that they reach 82c in their testing.

Even the limited power available to OC is more than enough to OC the card to the thermal throttling point.

The air cooler can't avoid thermal throttling when pushed while running with highest stable OC. The heat build up eventually reaches the point where the card fluctuates wildly trying to keep below 82c.

 

Yes I know. That was mainly in response to @Georgel - more a hypothetical.. if the fans were infact able to keep the temps under control... which they can't lol

 

You know... I'm gonna be honest. If Pascal requires 82c as a maximum to keep cool (instead of 92c like Maxwell/Kepler) then we're in for some REAL crap in mobile cards. There is no way a GPU that's hotter than Maxwell (and possibly even Kepler) is going to survive in notebooks. Especially in hotter countries.

 

I thought the TDP was 94C. It's not?

I remember the 880M throttling very similarly when it first came out.

 

I was surprised too, but all the reviewers benchmarking are quoting 82c...

https://www.google.com/search?num=5...0...1c.1.64.serp..0.4.359...30i10.UeqZDPy_L1o

More are saying 82c in their videos

82c is a rather low temperature for a throttling point with such a high revving card.

It makes me think all of the cooling should be water-cooling - maybe even chilled water

 

Apparently you can raise the temp target, but even so... if it's designed for 82c as a throttle point, we might as well get GM200 in 16nm form for laptops.

 

ROFL They don't even know what's a founders edition, all they say is reference and top tier and shizz and break ups in conversation, miserable marketing absolutely senseless, during keynote they had mentioned it has special parts / binned and now nothing so It's alright to wait for Strix / Classified cards, and it's like they are running on a loop (thermals, blower, wtf ?) & that 7:16 mark, get rekt !!

This scam is on a whole new level, ultimate fallacy. Air cooled OC and throttle@82C ? Insane..

 

Gamers Nexus has an article to go with the videos:

Complete Disassembly of GTX 1080 – The Road to DIY 1080 Hybrid By Steve Burke Published May 18, 2016 at 11:49 am

http://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/2439-complete-disassembly-of-gtx-1080-to-build-a-1080-hybrid

On thermal throttling:

"Here's the deal: We ran a thermal throttle analysis in our 9000-word review of the GTX 1080 ( read it!). We discovered that, like Maxwell before it, consumer Pascal seems to throttle its frequency as temperatures reach and exceed ~82C. Each hit at 82C triggered a frequency fluctuation of ~30~70MHz, enough to create a marginal hit to frametimes.

This only happened a few times through our first endurance test, but we've conducted more – this time with overclocks applied – to see if there's ever a point at which the throttling goes from “welcomed safety check” to something less desirable.

Turns out, the thermal throttling impacts our overclocks, and it's limited the potential of a GPU that's otherwise a strong overclocker.

And so begins Part 1 of our DIY GTX 1080 build log – disassembly; we're taking apart the GTX 1080, tearing it down to the bones for a closer look inside..."

 

82c is pretty low throttle point. Actually ridiculous.

Another thing that smells of fail is the SLI Bios key for people who want to go 3 or 4 way SLI.. They now need to contact Nvidia and they'll update your bios with a 'key' . That's going to end well for people wanting to flash the stock BIOS - usually the people who do buy 3 or 4 cards.

 

Maybe some good news, if you feel up to soldering on your brand new Founders Edition 1080

We Found Another Power Header Point on the GTX 1080, Likely for OC
http://www.gamersnexus.net/news-pc/2440-extra-8-pin-header-found-on-gtx-1080-pcb

"In the process of tearing apart the new nVidia GTX 1080 video card, we discovered solder points for an additional 8-pin power header positioned at a 90-degree corner to the original 6-pin header.

This is shown in our tear-down video (embedded at the bottom of this post), but we've got a photo above, too."

 

Faceplam.
1. There is no original 6-pin header.
2. This was disclosured 1 week before the NDA date.

 

Link?

What could have been disclosed/trusted info before NDA date (embargo date)?

I don't see a 6-pin header there just 2 8 pin landings, he was probably referring to the 6-pin header on the last generation models, in approximately the same location.

What are you suggesting? These are unused pads? A phantom 8-pin solder point?

 

I think that header is for a quadro version with a different PCB design. I have never seen a sideway 8pin with another top 8pin design.

And the extra header exist on a lot of cards... nothing new here.

 

Well, it was hard to fake so many pictures
http://videocardz.com/59818/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-taken-apart
http://wccftech.com/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-pcb-gp104-gddr5x/
AIB partners will sell overclocked cards with better power circuit which includes additional 8-pin connector.
There are 4 types of cards: FE, Custom cooler only, Custom cooler and better power circuit and water-cooled 1080.

 

I doubt about how the partners sell the SLI, would it be possible for the +2 SLI configs without that blasphemy of BIOS retarded key and 1070 also same HB bridge, I thought it was due to G5X initially but this seems some whole new muddled practice again..

 

Are you KIDDING ME!? 82C!? WTF! Grrr. This means significantly underclocked chips. This was unexpected news. That's a low peak temp for throttling. Hopefully they're just "playing it safe" with the initial clocked chips.

 

Not only underclocked chips, but if they're going to design chips for crap like the Razer Blade to get "midranged" (like 1070M) then mobile Pascal again might as well not exist.

And even if we DO get a decent 1080M, overclocking will be GONE.

I have heard them being able to bump the thermal limits on desktop but I don't know to how much. Since people like JayZ don't know NVI exists and claim they couldn't adjust the card at all with MSI AB and EVGA Precision X.

 

Wait for a pascal bios editor to come out.

I will be definitely getting my hands on at least 1 and probably 2 GTX 1080 AIB cards this summer. So we will see?

 

BIOS editor doesn't mean anything if the chip can't handle above 83c or so. You could say... force the card to have a 90c cutoff point, but then it'd shut off your system at 84c for example.

 

The hardwired temperature shutoff point is in the vbios I believe. At least for the 980 TI vbios I had a poke at.

The hard throttle point is probably 90+C. Really not an issue.

 

read the 1080 computerbase review today and they stated the possibility to up the power target to 120% and temperature target to 92C without losing warranty, so theres some hope

fun fact: at 92C TT and 120% PT max. temps rose to 85C with PT being the only limiting factor remaining...

link (in german): http://www.computerbase.de/2016-05/geforce-gtx-1080-test/6/

 

Man,...

I guess I am okay with all said and done.

I mean, both for benching and usage, 1080 is better than anything on consumer market at the moment. Even if we cannot OC it very far, we can use it at stock, and it is still way better than either 980 or 980ti or Titan

But I have a feeling someone will be emerging out of the shadows and explain us how to get that extreme OC and how to avoid breaking the chip Actually, if it can OC so much, I wonder if there will be monster cooled versions made by some third party, that will allow much more cooling. But something like replacing the entire cooling method, keep only the PCB, then stick water cooling to vRAM, and to every component, and have something monster, like two pumps running in parallel for main GPU cooling.

 

Just run it with a full cover block. its out on day one.

 

The first link I did see before, and it confirms the 2nd spot for a 2nd 8 pin connector, right where that vertical 8 pin sits:

"As you can see there’s just one 8pin power connector, but NVIDIA made room for additional power connector in case AIBs want to modify reference board."



I have had boards that fit the 2nd power connector out the back like that, an annoying location

If you are handy with a soldering iron, and have a connector to put in the spot, I wonder what else is needed, any other parts?

 

From that link (thanks!):

" Temperature and Power Target can be adapted
Remained untouched are the factors 3.0 Power and Temperature target at GPU Boost. The target temperature is the GeForce GTX 1080 - as in the GeForce GTX 980 Ti - 83 degrees Celsius and can be increased up to 92 degrees. The Power Target can be maximized from the standard 100 percent to 120 percent."

A number of benchmark reviewers showed them using EVGA Precision X beta, that lets you tune the 1080, and it shows them pushing up the GPU Temp Target and the Power Target, "otherwise they couldn't OC very far"

The Gamers Nexus videos and article don't show Steve using EVGA Precision X, maybe I missed it, it seems odd Steve wouldn't think of that, and it seems odd he could OC at all without adjusting the GPU Temp Target + Power Target, let alone reach 1264mhz.

I skimmed the videos and I don't see the EVGA Precision X running in any of the frames, or showing as an image in the articles. I guess I will need to watch the videos again and see if he mentions how he tweaked the Power Target.

Here's a view of the 1080 base settings through the EVGA Precision X interface:



That was pulled from the Paul's Hardware video:
GTX 1080 Benchmarks vs 980 SLI, 980 Ti & Fury X

 

VRMs.... They would probably blow.

 

Upgrade the VRM's then

Sheesh, are we going to have to build a new card?

Or wait for the AIO Cooler Edition and pay $1000 per?

 

I kept hearing how 1080 is EXTREMELY overclockable but now I hear that it's an overheating piece of junk.
Can someone clarify ?
Do we have Pascal or do we have garbo ?

 

really depends on the vbios and cooling unit, thats all what we have here is an artificially gimped / caged beast thats waiting to be properly unleashed.

basically, business as usual with nvidia gpus

Sent from my Huawei Mate 8 NXT-AL10

 

Temp Target says "%" and not "°C". So is that a % of 82C or is it actually °C?