nVidia 2015 mobile speculation thread

Prema, OEM's are "fooled" into making what people want, even though they know it won't work right.

OEM's are "fooled" into building thin laptops that can't possibly cool the CPU/GPU effectively enough to run at full performance.

And, people buy them.

OEM's are "fooled" into making laptops with 4k 15" screens even though the OS can't scale it into a readable form, and games can't possible run at a high enough FPS at 4k to be playable.

And, people buy them.

Now, Asus actually builds something innovative that noone knew could be done, growing the options available for cooling those thin hot 4k laptops so people can get what they want and still get full performance.

And, you then tell people not to buy those new innovative laptops that can deliver what people want?

Because Asus is obviously trying to fool them with PR fluff just for PR's sake?

Tilt at Windmills much?

 

thing is, all these new options would be so damn awesome if you could actually combine them in the correct way!

namely:
- gimme socketed desktop/mobile cpus with unlocked multis and voltages (and universal socket for all future generations to come)
- gimme swappable gpu with unlocked clocks and voltages (and universally compatible vbios / system bios to ensure future compatibility)
- gimme usb 3.1 type c and the freedom to connect any egpu i want through it
- gimme the option to choose between optimus / igpu only / dgpu only
- gimme the ability via dx12 to use igpu, egpu AND dgpu in multiway sli
- gimme the ability to exchange the dgpu with an optical drive / a second battery pack / additional 2.5" drive and thus run off the igpu for increased battery life while on the move
- do away with fixed internal 2.5" ports and gimme all m.2 ports
- gimme 4k / high gamut / high refresh rate (120 hz) / 3D capable screens
- gimme the option to upgrade my cooling system from air to water

if anyone wants to add anything to this, be my guest

perfect laptop in my book!

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Really now? There are several laptop water cooling projects on T|I. And Asetek showed a water-cooled M18x R1 3 years ago (never made it to market):



Prema's point, which you apparently missed, was that Asus needs to throttle their 990M unless the GX700 is docked because their cooling is not up to snuff to begin with, while Clevos will be able to handle 990M full-tilt (and in MXM and in SLI no less) w/o requiring an ass augmentation. Little wonder that the GX700 is getting ripped apart across the Internet.

 

If I, as a customer, purchase into something because I am told it is really high end and unmatched in mobile performance and then go over to my friends house just to see it outperformed by something I could have gotten instead if I would just have spend more time on the topic, I wouldn't be a happy camper.

I would welcome a (water) cooling solution whole heartedly to keep a desktop CPU running at 4.5Ghz @ all cores over an entire rendering session in a mobile system.
The GPU side already has no problems to hold turbo clocks in the DTRs.

 

How about X99/Skylake E?

 

With the exception of new tech (USB 3.1 type C, M.2) and impossible tech (DX12 SFR), pretty much everything you just described has been present in alienwares XD.

socketed CPUs and unlocked BIOSes
swappable GPUs and almost universal compatibility
optimus, iGPU only, dGPU only (via MUX) in bios (note: optimus doesn't support SLI, so SLI = iGPU or dGPU only)
120Hz/3D
water cooling (it existed at some point in one of them)

^ all present in legacy AWs

Swap ODD for second GPU = Lenovo Y500 (no need to do that on SLI AWs).

 

Closed loop internal cooling systems like that (in the Alienware M18x above) have serious heat issues under long-term use.

That's one reason it never made it to the market.

 

You mean like 99.9 percent of people who buy macbook pros??

 

thats exactly where i got my ideas from haha@aw and y500 and also the reason i was actually looking to purchase an alienware this time around, until they decided it would be such a great idea to go all bga

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octiceps, the water-cooling with the GX700 isn't optional - you get one with your purchase of the GX700, though you can buy another one as an option - to use elsewhere.

The fact that you can use the GX700 without the water-cooling assist isn't a bad thing, it is a good thing.

Of course you can't run at full performance without the water-cooling, or why would you need the water-cooling in the first place.

Hopefully the design of the GX700 allows for full air-cooling performance - the same as any other laptop with the same GPU and air-cooling only. That would be the measure I would use to decide if the design was fully realized.

That is likely why Asus used a 17" frame instead of a 13"/14"/15" base, besides needing room for the water-cooling plumbing, a 17" frame is needed for cooling high end CPU / GPU's for full high performance on air.

It's likely that this first implementation can be optimized to the point where it could be miniaturized into the smaller frames.

Then Asus can port back that smaller hardware into the 17" frame, and along with the rise in public awareness/acceptance Asus can also provide a portable reservoir / radiator - worked up into a backpack?

Lots of upside potential, just for taking the risk, that noone else would take, to ship something innovative.

 

jaybee83, here you go!

 

Er Asus themselves said it would throttle when undocked. Well, actually they said perf would improve by "up to 80%" with it docked and fully overclocked. Different (marketing speak) way of saying the same thing really.

 

Prema, first they would be a fool to purchase something like that without checking out all the details first.

Second, there is no such laptop, and even if there were for a split second, the next second it would be 2rd or 3rd fastest.

Asus didn't say it was the fastest laptop in the world. They said wanted to share a new cool innovative development that they were excited to show us.

You are jumping all over someone for trying something new. They used what they had and made the best of it.

We want to encourage OEM's to take risks, and try harder to give us the unreasonable requests we make of them.

Eventually they will produce something we will all want.

Once they perfect the cooling for the GPU's, then they can loop in the CPU's, and end up with more thermal headroom - and - "hey, we can put in socketed desktop CPU's now!!"

Please don't kill a new innovative idea before it has had a chance to grow to fruition.

 

octiceps, it's still in development.

If you have a performance value of 100% on air, and adding water-cooling allows you to increase that performance 80%, wouldn't you be really really happy?

Wouldn't that be a good thing?

After all the talk here about wanting the 990m, Asus actually shows it off early - first again - giving you all a heads up on the 990m specs - not only are they showing you the 990m - they are delivering it in a package that lets the 990m run Overclocked / likely Overvolted - at highest possible performance - WITH WATER-COOLING and EXTRA POWER!!! - and you trash it???

Why are you guys so ungrateful and negative?

 

Clevo will run 990M at full performance (no throttling) on air. GX700 will throttle on air and run full performance when docked.

So no, I wouldn't be happy that the Asus can only run at 20% on air and requires docking for 100%, while Clevo can run at 100% on air.

 

Do we know if it will run in the 15" P750DM?

Would be interesting, as it's probably nearly as portable as the 17" GX700.

 

octiceps, you haven't figured out that Asus is OC'ing, Over-volting, and tuning the 990m way beyond release specs when plugged in to the cooling/power dock. Asus can only offer that performance when watercooled with extra power.

Clevo is using standard non-OC normal voltage air-cooled spec.

Why do you think that Asus can't meet the air-cooled normal voltage 990m spec when not plugged in to their dock?

Asus is disabling the OC when away from the dock because it needs to have the water-cooling and extra power to OC/OV and tune the GPU for maximum performance.

Away from the dock the Asus GX700 is just like the Clevo, air-cooled, and will need to detune to the standard spec - that the Clevo runs at all the time.

Does that help clear things up?

Asus runs faster on dock, runs at Clevo speed away from dock.

 

You seriously think I (or anyone else) would believe your assumptions over Prema's knowledge?

 

i love it! benchmarks, pricing and ETA plz!

prema mentioned general batman compatibility ZM/DM in all sizes makes sense if u consider that both the 15 and 17 inch variants have the same cooling capabilities. same hardware reaches same temps under identical conditions in both chassis

u misunderstood something there. asus themselves confirmed that, undocked, the GX700 will have comparable performance to a 980M, and that is with 2048 (990M) vs. 1536 cores (980M). so the 990M is most definitely THROTTLED when undocked rather than overclocked when docked. either that or nvidia designed the 990M to be exactly as fast at stock clocks as a 980M even though theyre offering 33% more cores.... errr no

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octiceps, Prema isn't arguing technical specs, I am.

Prema is arguing the self interested emotional voice here, not me. Prema wants everyone to ship only big bad desktop CPU's. Prema wants to ignore everything else. That is an emotional argument, literally ignoring most of the market.

Prema already said he wants better cooling, he just refuses to accept it as delivered on anything other than big bad desktop CPU's.

That is unreasonable, unaffordable by all except the entitled rich 1% of us.

Asus is trying to bring high end performance as affordable solutions. They may seem expensive to you and I, but they are a lot cheaper than what Prema is suggesting.

It may take a few generations, but we are likely witnessing the creation of a whole new methodology in cooling design, prompted by Asus courage and focus, honed after 25 years of pursuit of high performance made affordable to everyone.

I think I will go with Asus, MSI, Clevo, they have the experience and the resources to create and deliver their dream of high performance.

While I admire and respect Prema, I think he is missing the point here, and after some reflection will agree, that any innovation that moves the industry forward is good to support, and not ridicule because it doesn't meet their idea of what it should be.

Code it yourself, or go back to the garage and build it, use that energy of criticism for positive creation.

 

Uh no dude, mobile CPUs are more expensive than desktop CPUs. A 4940MX is $1000, a 4790K is $300. And the BGA soldered stuff is much more costly to replace.

And how dare you argue affordability LOL, when the GX700 is 3000-4000 Euros with only a BGA CPU and single (also BGA) 990M.

 

Has Asus published the dimensions of the GX700 (undocked)?

The P750DM is fairly heavy, but still relatively portable, 386mm x 262mm x 35.7mm (1.4 inches thick)

 

definitely portable, i carry my P750ZM to work and back every day. by bicycle

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Sounds like delid and lap is what you want (possibly screw mod and liquid metal if you want max heat dissipation)!

 

octiceps, it's a first of it's kind, probably hand-tuned by Asus Elve's, it's gonna be costly beyond the parts costs.

The high end Mobile CPU's and High end Desktop CPU's are all expensive.

I haven't had a CPU die on me in service in 15 years plus, including literally 100k's of servers. Support chips, voltage regulators, disks, memory, controllers, batteries, wire harnesses, sockets, plugs, everything, but not CPU's.

Once past the initial infant mortality failures, which are QC failures, the CPU's don't fail. That argument really needs to die here.

Now, if you mess around with the paste, the heatsinks, the heatpipes, the voltage, and whack on that CPU with a mallet to pop the top, then yes, a soldered BGA CPU is gonna put a kink in those plans, so stop doing that dumb-ass crap.

Those actions are likely what killed socketed CPU's. Poor behavior on the part of owners - causing endless re-work work for the OEM's.

Did you really think they were going to keep putting up with that costly behavior? If they won't stop messing with the CPU, lock it down.

 

Eyeballing it, I'd assume in the ballpark of the G752VY since they look pretty much identical.



NBC says it will weigh 7-8 kg together with the dock.

Obviously the P750DM will be more portable due to being 15".

 

In my opinion, GX700 is more like an experimental product for ASUS to see how the market react. I have seen some clevo users diy their own laptop on water cooling, but not many of them will try on the one they're using everyday, accident could happen any time

Boring boring Chelsea

 

Oh @Mr. Fox is gonna have a ball with this

 

Based on the pictures, is more like a little thinner G752 + a liquid cooling station


Boring boring Chelsea

 

You have just proven your ignorance. Bga is primarily heat! Lapping, delidding, etc. Voids the cpu warranty. Learn!!!

 

jaybee83, we don't have the real / final numbers, so we are all guessing

Let's wait and see.

Hopefully the Asus GX700 990m air-cooling implementation isn't held back by the water-cooling apparatus - given the same cooling headroom on air both the Clevo and Asus should perform the same.

That means the Asus will perform better docked, with more power and water-cooling.

If Asus decided to hold back the GX700 performance away from the dock, they shouldn't have and they don't need to, a 17" with enough cooling and a 230w power supply should be enough to perform the same as any other 990m on air.

And, yes, I did note that Asus said the GX700 has a 180w power supply away from the dock, that is a bad design choice if that is what they ship with - it should come with a 230w-330w power adapter.

 

Come on, you were here when this was posted: http://www.computerbase.de/2015-09/...hltes-laptop-mit-2.048-shader-gpu-von-nvidia/

 

ajc9988, actually all you have proven is that you can't be happy with what you have, that you need to whack on it until you think you have improved it, when all you are doing is messing it up.

Actually, it shows my deep understanding of the situation from doing it to supporting it to finally realizing it is a waste of time.

 

Do you understand that, for some, it is a hobby? That people can be enthusiasts? That people look at this when purchasing?

 

tinkering FTW!

asus aint guessing at the specs...

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ajc9988, yes, but the OEM's aren't making tinkertoy / lego / erector set hobby kits, and they don't expect their customers to treat them that way.

The PC laptop makers are delivering well engineered well thought out solutions to provide reliable laptops to those that want the power and performance they ship with.

They give us a few balls of yarn to play with, Intel XTU for tuning the CPU, Asus / MSI tools for tuning the GPU, and we can uninstall all the well intentioned useless crap software they bundle. That should be enough.

These PC makers stand behind their work, but when you dilute the failure pool by cracking open the cooling system, install BIOS/vbios's that remove the power and thermal limitations, you expose the PC maker to unexpected failures that cost them money.

They realize people don't know what they are doing, at least the ones that don't know enough to stop before they break something, so they have to put in limits so you can't get into trouble.

Limits like soldering parts onto PC boards so you can't hack them, or locking down BIOs/vbios's.

If you weren't paying attention, those are the reactionary signs of a company trying to stop sprouting losses due to owner error.

Like I said, owner misconduct / error / costly losses killed the socketed parts and enthusiast access to BIOS's.

It's not that they don't understand that there are people out there that can handle such things responsibly, it's that they understand there are 100k's more that follow those people that can't due to inexperience, and therefore in the end, irreparably damage their laptops - and add a costly burden to the OEM.

 

jaybee83, actually the Asus spokesperson is guessing at the specs.

They haven't finalized them, so it is a point in time guess, the in between final guess-timation.

Having lived as an engineer for many years, we often hear marketing spokespeople speaking out of their hat. But, we love them anyway, cause they are trying their best.

 

And, here is the voice of wisdom. I posted something very similar a few days ago. Using liquid cooling for the GPUs was really stupid and waste of resources. Anyone with a lick of sense would understand that CPUs are where the most cooling is needed to do anything truly special. Maybe this is an indication the CPU will be a locked down piece of trash that cannot be clocked high enough to warrant any help... not sure, but it certainly seems extra dumb to me.

So, ASUS releases another jokebook. Business as usual for these clowns. In the grand scheme of things I really don't care since I'm not going to entertain the notion of dropping any money on a BGA turdbook... period. And, OMG - what kind of engineering abortion is that huge colostomy bag cooler hanging off the hind end of that thing. Reminds me of a huge goiter hanging off of someone's butt. LOL... a droid hemorrhoid.

 

Soldering parts don't prevent "hacks" as you put it. Nor does it always prevent bios mods. What it does do is prevent upgrading. In a declining pc market (both laptop and desktop), locking down components with whitelists in bios, soldering, etc. helps to speed obsolescence. It is marketing more than what you have stated and has been done for awhile.

As for processors, Haswell is hot as hell. Broadwell is worse. Because systems have decided to go thinner as the fad (competing with Mac), it is harder to dissipate more heat in less space. This necessitates other measures, including BGA, throttling (variable TDP is the preferred nomenclature), and locking down components further because they have left little to no headroom due to design changes in the goal for thin and light. As Skylake mobile supposedly is cooler than Haswell and Broadwell, supposedly sockets mobile chips will be back next year.

So yes, I do understand the changes. I also applaud the effort of Asus (but reserve judgement until release and put through the paces). Money is the absolute goal, and if you can achieve obsolescence and hinder failures, it maximize the bottom line. But please don't feed me this company ******** line when first and foremost it is heat and component limitations.

 

Hey guys, let's be nice to each other. We can criticize the lousy trash tech that OEMs vomit all over us and say horrible things about their engineering stupidity to our heart's content, but there's no reason to be snotty to one another. It's also against forum rules.

 

ajc9988, it's the actions taken by owners to cure those heat and component limitations that cause the trouble.

Why do you think you can cure the heat problems better than the company that designed, implemented, and supports the laptop?

Why take a brand new laptop, that you likely haven't even burned in to test - kind of like seasoning food before tasting it - and split it apart and replace the cooling paste?

You guys spend $5k on a laptop, then spend $10 on thermal paste - so you can pull apart your brand new laptop and make it better.

I see people posting for months afterwards, trying to get it back the way it was when they bought it. I tell them to please trust the computer company that made it, tell them the truth, you messed up, and hopefully they will have mercy on you and fix it up. The company comes through, takes the cost hit, and has a happy customer.

Sorry man, except for rare circumstances, the potential disasters far out weigh the benefits in hacking the hardware.

 

:-O

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Sorry Mr. Fox, let me go back and clean up the ****'s.

 

I mentioned this awhile ago. Unless scrapped since, check out the mobile skylake roadmaps and articles!

 

I'll be first to apologize if I have offended. I only meant to dispel the argument that oems do all good and point out that many choices are a compromise between marketing and hardware limitations, not to prevent hardware failures or tinkering while acknowledging that it is an ancillary benefit.

This is what I had written before your last post. O.k. Done

 

Socketed CPUs for mobile probably aren't coming back until Cannonlake's successor. Whether or not Intel plans to skip Cannonlake in favour of Kaby lake and Graphene or some other form of process that isn't silicon remains to be seen. But don't expect mobile sockets for a few years again.

 

Mr. Fox, yes, it is to laugh, but I believe they are sincere - if not a little innocent - but they are sincere in their attempt to push things forward.

Adding the CPU to the cooling loop might have looked like too much to bite off right now. They showed restraint by focusing on the GPU.

The goal was to fit the thermally power hungry 990m GPU into a laptop. That's what they did.

While the cooling dock does have a humorous look from some unflattering angles, I think sitting on a desk it will look awesome.

If we think forward a couple of steps, the CPU heatsink is likely connected to the heat spreaders from the GPU - typically they are - so the CPU may not be directly cooled by water cooling it is indirectly distributing heat through it and the air-cooling system as well.

They did say the CPU OC was disabled away from the dock...

 

Words, man, words, get them out

What do you or don't you like about that statement?

 

octiceps, just cause they are in a chart don't make'em real

Besides that we already established they are hearsay from development mules, not shipping product details.