The new SSD Thread (Benchmarks, Brands, News and Advice)

Hey folks, I finally bit the bullet and bought a Runcore Pro IV 32GB SSD. Want to replace the 4GB CF card I've been using for a year in my TC4200. Seeing as this is the only widely available Indilinx-based PATA drive, there wasn't much choice - I couldn't find Photofast's offering for anything less than twice the price.

Any ideas on what I can expect from the ICH6M? I've had a Samsung RBX MLC on an IDE bus for a while now and the random read/write speed don't seem to be affected much.

 

It would be sweet if you could put one of THESE pci-express ssd's in a notebook.
•Available in 250GB (256), 500GB (512), and
•1TB (1024GB) capacities
•256MB Local Cache
•Onboard RAID Controller
•PCI-Express interface (x4)
•For use as primary boot drive or data storage

•250GB Max Performance:
•Read: Up to 774MB/s
•Write: Up to 646MB/s
•Sustained Write: Up to 600MB/s
•500GB Max Performance:
•Read: Up to 878MB/s
•Write: Up to 761MB/s
•Sustained Write: Up to 600MB/s
•1TB Max Performance:
•Read: Up to 878MB/s
•Write: Up to 781MB/s
•Sustained Write: Up to 600MB/s

 

That would be like resuming from standby when you boot up! Onboard Raid controller... phew. All for the low low price of your first born! If this comes out for a laptop with similar specs that would be amazing.

 

In less than five years you can get something faster in a 1.8" form factor for less than $50.

 

You have obviously not read my messages nor any from those that are from other threads in which you posted. So I will reiterate what I said in hopes that you actually read it this time. In order to run a SSD off PCIe you need a hard drive (I/O) controller (for example, Intel's controller in their chipset is the ICH#, and connects via SATA or sometimes PATA to the hard drive).

Ok, this is key here: Netbooks have a SATA or PATA I/O controller connected to the PCIe slot so that they can use SSD PCIe cards. Notebooks do NOT. Hence why in order to use a SSD PCIe in a notebook, you need one with a built in I/O controller (such as the Samsung that nando pointed out).

If you want to try it, go ahead and spend your money and find out yourself. You don't need to copy and paste the exact message in every thread. And don't say it's just a theoretical problem, here is an example of someone who says they tried it. If you've searched and read, you would have realized this. A lot of people are interested in this idea, but there has not been any success in regular notebooks.

 

One thing with PCI Express SSDs is they would probably kill your battery life if you can actually stick them in. And they are still subject to degradation.

 

Found this on a Dell forum:

It seems the problem with SSDs and the 1501 has to do with the internal controller of the SSD. I had the same behavior with an 64GB OCZ Core & a 60GB OCZ Core II. Apparently most of the SSDs are using a controller that the BIOS doesn't recognize as bootable. I think I read it was a JMB controller. During many months of reading about SSDs I finally ran across information about this and that the JMB(?) controller was also primarily responsible for the "stutter" experienced with SSDs. Intel introduced their latest SSDs a few months ago and I saw a review of the Samsung SSD stating Samsung was using the Intel controller.

I even called Dell Tech Support and they told me SSDs would not work in the 1501.

I purchased a Samsung 64GB SSD, Mfr Part Number: MMCRE64G5MPP-0VA00, installed it in my 1501 and it works perfectly.

So, you can install a SSD in an Inspiron 1501 if you get one with a controller the BIOS can recognize. As I stated in another post, I did my "tweaking" based on information OCZ has on the SSD Forum. This includes partition alignment and turning off a lot of little things in Windows.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
At this I did a search on Samsung drives and found the answer to my own question, been looking into this for about a year now, but still did not find the answer in the notebookreview:
THIS HAS BEEN RUMORED TO HAVE THE INTEL CONTROLLER BUILT IN, MADE TO RUN ON NOTEBOOKS AS A SECOND STORAGE DEVICE: http://www.samsung.com/us/business/semiconductor/newsView.do?news_id=1022

 

stlcraft,

I don't see how you answered your own question? sgogeta4 gave you good information and what you have provided does not contradict what was said.

In your quote above, the person managed to install a 2.5" SSD in his Dell. So?

The news link dated June 23, 2009 to the Intel Controller/Samsung SSD says that it will be using a SATA interface over mini PCI-e but the 'gottcha' is that this is still dependent on OEM manufacturers to implement this new 'standard'.

To me, this means you still have not found a solution, but rather one that may or may not be coming in the near future (we are already in the 'third quarter' of this year).

Don't get me wrong, I would welcome this too... but not all news releases come to fruition (and certainly won't affect older equipment like your notebook (or mine) in any way).

Yes, the future looks promising, but (technology) promises usually come true only by upgrading to the (new) future.

You also couldn't have read/found out about this in the last year of your searching notebookreview since the news release was dated three months back.

To me, news releases are treated as vapour-ware and need to be taken with a pound of salt until a product actually ships - so far, this news is tasting really salty.

 

I'm going to quote my last message since I did mention that specific Samsung PCIe SSD in the last line above. The JMB controller is the Jmicron B controller, which has been known here since they first came out to cause stutter. And as pointed out before, the drive you quoted is the 64GB 2.5" Samsung MLC SATA SSD. No one here is trying to ignore your question or knock down the idea, it's just that right now the idea doesn't work with the current PCIe SSDs. When Samsung finally releases the one with the built in controller, I'm sure someone in this forum will try it out and get back to you (if you didn't already buy it).

 

Just cruising the web, I happened on this article.

http://techreport.com/discussions.x/17624

Maybe a SATA interface over mini PCI-e is already 'old news'?

 

I'm looking into upgrading from this laptop in the next year and this is something that I have been interested in finding out about doing for my next build. I'm more interested in the price/size advantage of having a regular HD for storage instead of using the 2.5 inch slot/s for SSD drives. Looks like I'll have to keep an eye out for an Intel mobile board that supports mSata or hope the the PCIe chips come into being. Will be nice to add a couple hours of battery life. It's promising that they are coming out with new products (and about time!) that will allow this type of implementation.

 

Here on page #179 they say ICH6-M supports Ultra ATA-100 (up to 100 MB/s), almost as SATA-I on my D620, so I think You would not regret spending money on new SSD.

 

ICH6M's UDMA5/ATA100 PATA interface is rated at 100MB/s read and 88.9MB/s write. Runcore ProIV 1.8" ZIF (PATA) benchmarks are here. A drive that outperforms it in the PATA format is the Mtron Mobi, though they go twice the price per gb.

 

I looked at Anandtech's newest article (from August 30), and it absolutely ripped apart the Samsung SSDs. That's kind of discouraging considering I just ordered a laptop from Dell with a 256GB SSD, which someone earlier said was a Samsung. Are they that bad? The article said that the new drives came with TRIM, but there was no way to know which ones had that firmware version. I'd hate to end up with one without trim, and then be stuck with a terrible SSD.

I ordered a Dell SXPS 16. I was thinking of maybe cancelling that order; instead of getting an SSD, I'd stick with the regular hard drive. That would save ~$350. And then instead of upgrading to the i7 820 (which I was having second thoughts about anyway), I'd leave it as an i7 720, which would also save ~$350. So I could take the money I saved there and just buy a quality SSD from Newegg or somewhere and use that instead.

Does that seem like a smart idea? I still have time to cancel the order, and this is not something I want to regret purchasing. And if I buy a different SSD, is it a big deal to install? The most involved thing I've ever done with the hardware side of things is install RAM.

Everyone on this forum is very smart about all of this technology, so I take your opinions very seriously. I'd really appreciate your input.

 

I have the Samsung 256 GB SSD in my Thinkpad T400 and it's been working just as fast as the day I bought it back in March.

 

Seems like it to me. If I were buying a new notebook today I'd be pissed that the manufacturers don't disclose exactly which SSD models they are selling for those expensive upgrade prices.

That said, the Samsung SSDs (if that is what Dell is selling) are so much faster than old mechanical drives that getting one would be a huge upgrade. Of course, for $350 you could choose exactly what you want on the open market and use the OEM HDD in an external enclosure or in the multibay.

 

Couldn't you acquire the firmware/serial # throgh Belarc Advisor?

 

sure but that means you have to purchase the laptop and have it in your possession. I would prefer to know ahead of that.

 

Yeah I think I'll go ahead and re-order. Thanks everyone for your advice.

 

stick with sammy, samsung WILL work just fine
all in all, afaik, sammy is the only drive that need no user controlled maintenance, I've seen so much degraded vertex-es and so much 8bm intels, that, for me, sammy is still the only way to go

 

The SSD option on new Dell notebooks is the best deal going right now for an SSD plus Dell gives RAID options. If you compare the Dell SSD option to a retail 256gb OCZ Summit or the 256gb Corsair it is about 2 for 1. The likelyhood that you will get the latest firmware should be good because it is neither in Dells nor Samsungs interest to rma a high % of SSD's due to botched user firmware flashes. You know there are always a % of bricked user flashes from consumers trying it while on battery power while multitasking, etc.

 

darQ96,

Can I say you must be spoiled with an SLC SSD? The Dell SSD is a MLC Samsung and I don't think they play in the same sandbox as to what you're used to.

 

I know it may not work like mine do, and that is not what I'm saying
I wanna say that even mlc sammy, from info that I've collected, will give you less problems than vertex or intel...they may be little faster, but, they also may become 8mb in size (intel) or they may slow down even 3x (vertex)...
sammys don't have such troubles, that's all what I'm trying to say

 

darQ96,

yes, there are the 8mb Intel problems, the 3x Vertex/Indilinx slowdowns, but the MLC sammys have their own slowdown/firmware problems too.

http://techreport.com/articles.x/17269/4

Again, your experience (or anyone else running an SLC SSD) does not indicate what a Sammy MLC user will see.

Anyway, just wanted to point people that were asking if their benchmarks were slow that the following article found a definite link between SSD speeds and the power settings of the computer/motherboard in use.

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/ssd-hdd-power,review-31532.html

I know it's 6 months old, but to me (and hopefully to a few others) it was a new data point to consider with these new beasts (SSD's).

An almost 25% reduction in R/W speeds seems counter to the maximum performance we are seeking in using SSD's (even if it is saving some battery life for us).

 

yeah SLC sammy rocks!!! only thing my new RAID0 setup 'feels' any faster for is loading games. everything else was already instant on the SLC sammy. even though the IOs or whatever supposedly suck on the SLC sammy i never had a problem. instant is instant... only thing i didn't like about it was sequentials where capped at 100/80 r/w. for some reason my brain couldn't tolerate a game loading not as fast as it possibly could, even though it was still faster than even the fastest desktop spinner... and i wanted to give RAID0 a try.
It's working great so far. only problems are that the latest software tech doesn't seem to work with RAID0 just yet (ie wiper tool, TRIM...) but so far i have only experienced minimal slow down, and i'm pretty sure that is even just from loading more software that is using more resources. It still 'feels' blazing!!!
also i just did a buy it now on ebay for 32gb SDHC for music, pics and other storage needs so i keep SSDs super fast. only $23.99. i hope it works, doesn't have to be fast just so that i can stick ~30GB worth of crap on it

 

Hey Guys
I just watched properly this video again because I wanted see what soft they using for measure speed ...
but later on i seen , they defragmenting ssds with auslogics disk defrag ..
so how it is with that defragmenting ssd ??? can i do it or not ??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96dWOEa4Djs

 

So... are the samsung SSD's that bad or what?

 

wirleaon
Why ??

 

Samsung SSD's are fine.

 

Yeah that latest one is OK planning buy another one 128 and connect them in RAID .. I wonder what speed will be ..

 

Hey guys quick question?

I just bought this drive the actual site is www.dvnation.com but the checkout cart goes here:

http://www.king-cart.com/cgi-bin/ca...otofast+2.5+32GB+V2+IDE+SSD&exact_match=exact

It's a 32gb pata drive with the barefoot controller. Are these guys a legit site to order from? it's the only place i could place and order from at a reasonable price? thoughts?

Sorry if i interrupted the flow of conversation. I just don't want to get ripped off.

-jess

 

jess,

Yes, DVNation seems to be legit and even have some pretty hi-end (SSD) stuff too, yet...

the spec's in the second link seem weird to me write speeds faster than read speeds? and the write speed faster than the PATA theoretical limit of 100MB/s?

I'm sure you'll get a product, but you'll have to let us know how it (really) performs.

 

Hey thanks for the quick reply man! I needed something better than a jmicron based transcend drive for the older PATA pc i have.. This is the only barefoot pata drive on the market that seems to perform well with random writes and has a cache. Hoping it's a least somewhat similar in performance to my 120gb Vertex, as my experiance has been excellent with OCZ so far.

-jess

 

I just got a tracking number showing that my replacement Intel G2 160GB SSD will be here tomorrow! I hope that the Snow Leopard installation will go smooth(er) this time. As suggested before, I'll try to install it without any format and see what happens.

I am not planning to fill this drive with music, videos, etc. However, what's the tolerable percentage level for these drives under Mac OS that lacks TRIM? 50%? 60%?

Thanks!

 

With mechanical HD's and the Mac O/S it was said to buy a new (bigger) HD before you filled it to 70-80% (this was from Apple themselves, I think). This was due to the space fragmentation issues (as opposed to file fragmentation).

Now with an SSD, that guideline no longer applies, but I would guess that it is still in that same range (with lower % filled being better, of course) but for different reasons. The more free space an SSD drive has the longer it should last (this is especially true for Intel SSD's).

So, enjoy your 125Gib Faaaassstt drive!

With most SSD's, there are spare chips put aside to replace chips that have worn out prematurely or simply to give the drive room to 'think' so that it's operations are carried out as efficiently as possible. This extra space is roughly 2% to 7% - with the better manufacturers giving closer to 7% or more.

With Intel SSD's, this is enhanced further by allowing all available free space to act as 'spare' chips instead of only the specific chips set aside by the manufacturer and/or controller configuration.

While other SSD's can operate at very close to their maximum performance even when they're full - the Intel's will measurably slow down.

The upside is that the Intel's will allow any available part of the chips to be used as a 'spare', whereas other SSD's will simply fail when all their designated 'spare' chips are used.

I think you chose the 'right' technology for your Mac, hope your initial issues with it were simply a glitch.

 

Yes, DVNation does seem to be going for performance in all it's range of products.

Let us know how close it comes to your Vertex when you get it running.

 

You can defrag SSDs if you want, but all it effectively does is use write cycles faster and "fill" it faster. The wear leveling will effectivly keep ur drive (for the most part) fragmented as well...

 

Thanks a lot for your post; very informative.

Currently, I am using 37GB of my 500GB drive. If I transfer some music and videos, etc, I would probably be around 50-60GB, which should leave plenty of space for the SSD to "breathe" (I hope). Everything else will be transferred to the Seagate external HD (w/ firewire).

 

Suggest go for a Runcore ProIV PATA SSD. Also uses Indilinx Barefoot controller but is way cheaper that the Photofast V2 offering. Note too that the benchmarks on dvnation's website would be using a ATA133 IDE interface. If your system uses a Intel chipset it would be rated at ATA100 which in real life tops out at ~90MB/s read speeds. Doesn't really matter, what matters is the 4kb read speeds which would be in the 15-20MB/s range. Much better than any HDD which sees around 0.5MB/s.

 

Those prices are way more reasonable! A 64gb drive from Runcore is the price of the 32gb from dvnation. Sadly the checkout process for dvnation is very basic, doesn't look like there is a way to cancel the order.

These ssd upgrades are gettin expensive Thanks for the tip.

-jess

 

jess,

I've been reading/researching/devouring any and all information I can get about SSD's for over a month and I still haven't made a decision to 'jump' - yet.

We will never know the complete picture until we spend some money.

Unfortunately though, DVNation has a no-return policy on it's SSD's and it seems like only a 1 year warranty on the one you bought.

No problem! You pay and you play

- when time was short in the past, I've payed well over twice and sometimes three or four times what a couple of key phone calls would have shown me was a grossly overpriced product - but I (thought) I 'needed' it right away and simply made it last that much longer - I also tried to not repeat my uninformed purchase choice next time.

Just like Tomy B. has in his sig;

If You want to be old and wise,
You gone be young and stupid first!

(At least this mistake did not cost you in the $10,000's)

 

Just wanted to ask Jess why You bought Photofast G-Monster from DVNation?

On last 10 or 15 pages we mentioned RunCore Pro IV maybe five times.

 

wow this thread is huge maybe we should create a sub-section for SSD's?

 

I've used Samsung SLC, MLC gen 1, and MLC gen 2. The MLC gen 1 may be slower than SLC, but MLC gen 2 is a huge improvement from gen 1, and surpassing my SLC.
Tilleroftheearth attacks others who use Samsung SLC without ever using Samsung MLC, yet he himself doesn't have ANY SSD whatsoever. Ironic right?
It's up to you to decide who to trust, someone who have used Samsung and Intel SSD, or someone who haven't used a single SSD.

 

Instead of going through a lengthy explanation without giving you an actual percentage threshold like tilleroftheearth did, I'll give you precise numbers.
On my Intel drive I experience slow down after the drive is 60% to 70% filled, so that's how much you should balance your storage. Keep in mind that this is with Intel gen1, but since you're running MacOS, the TRIM command isn't there, so your gen2 drive is basically like a gen1 drive. Alternatively you can use bootcamp, install Windows and run the Intel TRIM utility (to be released later) once in a while to ease the worry on storage.

 

Up until a month ago, I was exclusively using Samsung SSDs. Two G1 MLCs and an SLC, each of which were between 6 months and a year old at that time. Never had a problem with them, and they seriously aren't slow. Hell, I think the random write speeds are faster than those of the G2 MLC.

I've since sold the SLC (largely since I could get a good price) for an Intel G1, and I don't really notice a difference in performance in day to day operation.

 

That's exactly the point I want to make. For daily usage the SLC or the MLC gen 2 are almost identical to the Intel SSD. Thank you for sharing your experience.

 

Anyone got any news on stock for the 1.8" X18-m G2's?

 

Thanks for your reply. Just reporting back that the replacement drive came and I installed Snow Leopard on it... When I tried to install without formatting, the drive didn't show up, so I had to choose Drive Utility and erase (i.e., quick format) the drive with Mac OS extended (journaled). The installation went fast (about 15 minutes) and it seems to be working now ( :knocks on wood: ).

Everything is really fast (no surprises there I guess). The only issue I had so far, during one of the restarts, it took unusually long to get to the login screen. Even there the keypad and the trackpad was unresponsive; so I had to hold the power button 4-5 seconds to shut it down and restart. It hasn't happened since. I hope this is not an indication of something bad we'll see.

I'll probably wont pass 50% storage of this drive. Hopefully, that'll keep things in check. Thanks for the information.

As for installing Windwos 7... Wouldn't the TRIM will only take care of the Windows partition? If it's at the controller level and doesn't matter which OS, disk format is used, I'll go ahead and install Windows 7 Pro just for the TRIM support.

Thanks again!

 

There's a rather interesting, yet still basic article in PCWorld magazine about 8 SSD's being reviewed. I haven't read through it entirely, but it'd be interesting to see what a magazine geared towards computer newbs is going to say about the technology.

If there's enough interest here, I'd be willing to scan it and upload the full article?