*HP ENVY 17 & 17 3D (2XXX series) Owners Lounge*

Your sound applet looks like the same way mine is setup. With that said, I plug headphones in to the most forward port. Second port is for headphones with mic built in. When you plug into the first one...should mute your speakers and that's that...

 

This will be my last post about my SSD issues. I can only beat a dead horse so much. I called OCZ support and the gentleman wa quite helpful, much more than HP support. But I am quite disappointed in his answers. He said that 22 seconds for booting up is good for any SSD and that my low marks on Crystalmark are acceptable because that benchmarks in a different way than the OCZ recommended ATTO. I disagree since OCZ claims 500MB/s read and 450MB/s write speed, but there is nothing I can do. I am stuck with it now. But I am learning and will never buy OCZ or Sandforce again. Next time I will try Crucial or Intel.

 

Yea it does that normally but I guess skype somehow activated that thing under, anyways it's fixed now I just had to ask

 

That sounds a bit odd! Have you considered selling the OCZ on Ebay or some forums like EVGA have a place where you can sell parts. I have the Intel X-25 that HP ships in the Envy. I get much higher scores and mine is SATA 3.0 GB/s

 

I guess I lied about that being my last post since I am going to respond to you
I am just going to use it as my OS for now and wait until the Intel 510 or Crucial m4 go on sale and pick one of them up since there have been posts from you and others saying these work with the Envy with no issues. In 2 months I get my R&R and will put this OCZ thing in my parents laptop and see if it does better. If it doesn't then I will sell it on Ebay. Like I said in previous posts, I am disappointed with OCZ and their technical support. There is no way an SSD with their claimed read and write speeds takes over 20 seconds to boot a fresh Win7 install.

 

ok. I'm back one more time about my SSD. I checked the alignment using
start>accessories>sys tools>sys info>components>storage>disk and look at sectors/track
I have 63 when I should have 64. I hear that 64 is what perfect alignment and makes a dramatic difference in performance. I also read that 64 is not possible with restore disks. So I will try to get Win7 disks from HP. Does anyone think fixing this will increase my performance more than 50% to what it should be?

 

no first-hand experience here, but potentially yes, because a given r/w operation may be forced to span a physical page boundary.

SSD Alignment - Windows 7 Forums

 

Thanks for that link. It is very useful, but now I need help interpreting it. For some reason I have 3 partitions even though under My Computer I only have the OS C: drive. Here is what Diskpart shows:

PARTITION------TYPE-----------SIZE--------OFFSET
----1-----------Primary--------199 MB-------1024 KB
----2-----------Primary--------111 GB-------200 MB
----3-----------Primary--------103 MB-------111 GB

What the hell is a partition of 103 MB doing with an offset of 111GB?
And why 3 partitions? All the images in that link show 2 at the most.
So the offset on the first 2 partitions is correct because they are divisable by 4. The 3rd is not aligned.
I guess I will send this to OCZ and ask them, but a second opinion from the forum would also be helpful.

 

Just a quick tech question for you guys....1 DIMM versus 2 DIMM? Whats the difference and does it really impact performance or potential heat issues in any way?

 

Stick with TWO dimms. With two, you maintain dual channel speed on the memory. When you drop to one dimm...you lose speed on the memory, because it can't perform dual channel. When I run hwinfo32, I NEVER see my memory putting out a lot of heat...just the GPU and CPU...

 

Thanks man! Hows the laptop going?

 

I have no idea why your SSD is organized this way, but being as how I don't own one I'm probably not the best source of information to go deeper into this. I did find it curious that a great many of the alignment articles and comments on the web are associated with OCZ, so maybe there's something funny going on there with yours. I'm just convinced that when the OS wants to use the improperly-aligned partition, r/w speed will go down because it will have to cross physical page borders.

i suspect you could re-format and preserve the correct alignment with one of the instructions out there, and then re-install Win7. or--- as you say the fresh install with original disks should take care of the aligment for you. unless there is somethign unique about the OCZ.

bobmitch -- got any thoughts here?

 

The Envy 17 3D is unbelievable! Wonderful machine!!!

BTW...here is a great article on Dual channel memory...

Everything You Need to Know About Dual Channel | Hardware Secrets

 

Remember that your recovery discs are set up for the geometry of the HDD that the machine shipped with. I got an Intel SSD with my Envy and have all those partitions you speak of...YET...I have checked my alignment and it is correct...

There is a hidden HP diagnostics partition
There is Drive c:
There is one other hidden...I believe that is is for the SSD
and I have a fourth...my D drive.

If you do a clean install using a Windows 7 disc, you should probably be able to set alignment correctly. There are lots legal sources on the Internet where you can download an .iso installation disk for Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit.

Download Windows 7 ISO ? Official Direct Download Links - Direct download, download windows 7, download windows7, win 7, win 7 iso, Windows 7, windows 7 amazon, windows 7 digital river, windows 7 direct download, windows 7 download links, windows 7

You can use the key on the bottom of your machine to install and activate. Try it...what is to lose. I do recall fiver5 installing an SSD and doing a clean install. Fiver got great benchmark results.

You have nothing to lose and all to gain. Just make sure to have your SWSETUP backup and if you have a 3D...TriDef folder and you can restore the machine and hopefully realign it. During installation...choose custom and delete ALL partitions on the disk before you install. That should let Windows install properly.

 

Just for the record I have the same partitions (with almost the exact same sizes, as it's also a 120 Gb SSD) as usafpj (and Bobmitch) on my OCZ Agility III and it seems that it is also properly aligned (used the clusters info and so on to check it).
But then again I don't have (and can't have - for now) the latest firmware so I can't really know if there is an issue or not with mine (but then again having to update the firmware to get the proper speeds sounds really stupid).


On another subject nobody checked for the graphics "noise" issue I'm having with the AMD Graphics?

 

great tip bobmitch, to make one's own fresh install disks from downloadable .iso files.

just as an aside -- this whole SSD thing to me is a transitionary technology -- silicon flash memory is organized to look like a conventional rotating drive, and then we put a controller on top of it so that the traditional IBM PC architecture from the 1980s can use it, and then we adjust Windows so it can write to it just like a C: or a D: drive.

I think we're almost ready to bag that approach entirely. In the future i'd expect Windows (8?) to come preloaded into flash memory directly on the motherboard itself, not in an SSD. Such memory would be organized to optimize windows and without the overhead of the disk controller or the need to mimic a piece of rotating aluminum.

within the next year or two I'd expect to see this transition. Probably, there will still be the need for very large but slow memory stores, so rotating technology may still be required to keep costs down, and there will still be the after market need for silicon that mimics aluminum. But imagine a PC with no need for an SSD because the memory is native to the motherboard talking directly to the OS via dual channel DMA, combined with a pair of rotating drives striped in Raid 0.

 

From what I understand...the FEDS made Microsoft offer the .iso files. Seems that this "Recovery" creation limits a person's ability to control his own PC. So through Digital River, the .iso files became available for download. You can use the key code at the bottom of your machine to install a clean copy of Windows and control your own fate.

As far as your other thought...pretty intense stuff. My vision is one where the PC would be no bigger than an ipod and could connect wirelessly to a monitor if need be. Phones already have QWERTY keyboards...so why not. Our Envy's already have wireless for video as well...and the form factor is getting thinner...and smaller...Who is it Motorola that has the phone that's a PC or the PC that's a phone? Getting there...and most of all the memory is not rotating discs...The coming 5-10 years is going to be incredible!

 

I don't know where the new thread button is around here so will hope this gets posted where others can read/reply.

I just bought an Envy 17. This is my first Win7 machine after years of XP so it has taken some getting used to but seems to be generally a good thing. I like the speed of the machine overall but there are some issues.

The left front side where my hand rests heats up so much that it is burning my palm! I've read in this forum about others having this problem but not sure if there is some fix for it?

The touchpad doesn't work well, basically side-to-side movement is jerky or doesn't work at all. It reminds me of what old mice with the ball inside used to do when they got full of dirt. I tried various settings adjustments and got nowhere with this.

The tiny arrow keys on the right side also drive me crazy. I use them all the time doing work in spreadsheets and I have large hands and am constantly, even after 3-4 weeks use, hitting the wrong one because they are so small. I tried to find a way to get the number pad to function with arrows although this sort of defeats the purpose if I have to keep toggling around, but it doesn't exist anyway as far as I can tell.

So I'm sort of wondering if I ought to consider a different machine, maybe a Toshiba or other brand. I was very happy with my old Compaq and actually bought it from HP not too long after they took over Compaq. Their customer service was good and so I thought I'd buy from them again, but this laptop, in terms of the physical stuff, is really kind of a disappointment.

 

comet52 -- welcome to the forum did you buy a legacy Envy 17? if you don't know, tell us model number or your product number (on the underside label) and several folks here know how to look things up on the hp support site. t

FYI the older Envy 17s were known to get hot, but if you have one of the new ones it should not be getting that hot. You either have one of the old ones (can you return it?) or you have a new one and there is something wrong with it.

 

Also I noticed (due to my graphic noise issue) that when using the Intel Graphics and doing only some desktop stuff (internet, photo editing, etc.), the left palm rest is significantly colder (or feels so anyway).
Seems obvious but good to know!

 

Thanks. There are two numbers on the sticker on the bottom:

584037-001
X16-96077

I tried googling these but all I found were reference to Pavilion models. The HP support software says it is an LM125AV.

 

That's a brand new Envy 17 SB (HP ENVY 17t-2100).

Heat on the palm rest should not be scalding, but it will be warm.

There is a thread about fixing the trackpad to be more user friendly, but honestly only a replacement of this thing is ever going to fix it. It's quite the source of a lot of angst among Envy users.

The small arrow keys are common as some manufacturers try to save on laptop space. Sorry.

 

yea the 2100 model means you built a custom Envy 17 online. from all the experiences of those in this forum with both legacy and new (Sandy Bridge) Envy 17s, I have to say no one has ever (that I know of) reported that the left palm rest of the Sandy Bridge model burns them.

If it were me I'd return it right now, esp if you are within the 21 day return period. something is wrong

 

re SSDs:
I'm in the UK but seriously thinking about buying an ENVY 17 3D (sandy bridge) with a view to using it for HD video editing.

Can anyone tell me what type of SSD I would need to install in it ?

I can't find the speicifcation anywhere, and HP currently are out of stock of all SSDs they advised me to buy a 3rd party one.(e.g. which SATA type(s) will work?)

Any advice how much RAM, and which operating system to go for given HD video editing is what I'll be doing? I'm thinking 8--12 Gbyte (I'll be using Adobe Premiere), and a 160 G SSD, 750 or 500 G HDD. Does that seem reasonable ?

(Oh and with the more expensive processor option - i7-2820QM esp. so in time I can load up the RAM...)

Any experience from people doing Hi def video editing with their observations/ advice esp for customisation ?


Cheers !
Jonathan

 

I phoned HP (US) and found out the SATA 2 is "standard issue", 9.5mm max size, with SATA3 unofficially supported, (i.e. it wasn't designed for it, but it seems to work), and indeed so is 1600 DIMMS.. anybody had practical experience ?

 

To everyone. If Support assistant has popped up and told you that there are updates to download (I did)...mind you...new Power Manager...which btw...messes with custom settings in your power configuration. I found my Envy running at 800 MHZ with NO load today...thought a bit odd after f.15 So reached out to unclewebb...explained what was happening...he immediately told me sounded like my power settings were way off. Went into the Power settings in Control panel...lo and behold...the new Power manager reset everything...so I had to go back and set up the way I had it.

Also...used to be able to disable Hibernate...that choice is GONE in Power applet. Only way to disable it now is through command prompt:

powercfg / hibernate off

I don't use it...and it eats up space on my SSD...got it all settled back in, but HP took some liberties that I don't appreciate. If you downloaded all the updates...check your power settings in CP and see if they are changed...

Oh yea....my CPU is working normally again. No 800 MHZ unless on battery...as it is supposed to do

 

bobmitch and fiver5 in particular have had great success with aftermarket SSDs. curiously, HP has to test and qualify an SSD - -they should be able to tell you what has been qualified. Unfortunately, the HP maintenance and service guide for the newest (21xx) Envy 17 models is not posted yet on hp's support site, but for the 20xx models this manual specified the 160GB SSD which we all know is an Intel device. You can't go wrong with the Intel 160 or 300, but there are those who have been very succesful with other brands, i.e. crucial and others. SATA 3s should work, but i don't think the Envy 17 will offer the speed benefits of SATA3,

if you get the least bit serious about HD video editing you'll need f-a-s-t disk drives. The SSD is great - if it is big enough, but consider that the editing process is CPU intensive and content disk I/O intensive -- the primary OS drive I/O is not the bottleneck. So -- in my view, optizing for video editing a pair of 7200 rpm HDDS striped in RAID 0 would actually perform better (for the editing of long videos...) than the SSD+HDD combo. Of course, if you can afford it, a $1,000 SSD of 600GB would be great too...

you can load up the RAM with the 2630QM as well, but if you are out to squeeze that last bit of RAM performance with 1600MHz RAM, and you are ok with the price, order the 2820QM with as little RAM as possible and then replace it all with after market 1600MHz RAM. Honestly I don't think 1600MHz RAM is going to advantage video editing, as that is not where the I/O bottleneck is Also, as bobmitch as rightly pointed out earlier in this thread, stick to symetrically-sized sticks. And if price is not a problem, go for 16GB (2x8GB), although I bet 8GB would really be sufficient, as an hour of un-compressed HD video is on the order of 10GB -- your editing software will bring in smaller chunks at a time.

BTW, if you order the ENvy with 2x7200 you can then decide later to replace one of them with an SSD. in order of low cost to high cost, here's how the options stack in my mind:


1. minimum configuration is the 2820, 8GB of std speed RAM, and 2x7200 rpm drives. 16GB RAM is just very expensive right now and probably won't advantage video editing as a practical matter, although it will allow your editor to hit the disk less often.

2 Get a 100-300 GB SSD, leaving only one HDD. This configuration would be slightly worse performing for video editing but probably good enough, but now because the primary OS drive is an SSD things will get snappier. just do not, under ANY circumstances, pick a 5400 rpm drive for the HDD. it won't work well for streaming video into your editor.

3. Add another SSD identical to the first one, and stripe the pair in Raid 0.
this is what fiver5 has done, with amazing results. this is overkill for video editing, but holy black angus what a sweet system that would be!

 

Actually, my SSD is the one supplied by HP...the Intel X-25 160 GB. I had to muck around with a ton of settings to get it maximized. I believe fiver5 has aftermarket as well as a few others

 

[
if you get the least bit serious about HD video editing you'll need f-a-s-t disk drives. The SSD is great - if it is big enough, but consider that the editing process is CPU intensive and content disk I/O intensive -- the primary OS drive I/O is not the bottleneck. So -- in my view, optizing for video editing a pair of 7200 rpm HDDS striped in RAID 0 would actually perform better (for the editing of long videos...) than the SSD+HDD combo.

+1 on the two 7200 rpm drives in RAID 0 for video editing. I do that on my desktop i7 950 machine. Between the i7 processor that is excellent at encoding and decoding...my two VelociRaptors in RAID 0 eat video up at a pretty alarming rate. I can encode 2 hours of video in just about an hour...



you can load up the RAM with the 2630QM as well, but if you are out to squeeze that last bit of RAM performance with 1600MHz RAM, and you are ok with the price, order the 2820QM with as little RAM as possible and then replace it all with after market 1600MHz RAM. Honestly I don't think 1600MHz RAM is going to advantage video editing, as that is not where the I/O bottleneck is Also, as bobmitch as rightly pointed out earlier in this thread, stick to symetrically-sized sticks. And if price is not a problem, go for 16GB (2x8GB), although I bet 8GB would really be sufficient, as an hour of un-compressed HD video is on the order of 10GB -- your editing software will bring in smaller chunks at a time.

I have discussed this many times. Again agreed...1600 MHZ ram isn't going to help. What you want is ram faster than CAS 9. Unfortunately ALL DDR3 1333 MHZ Ram and 1600 are CAS9...so really doesn't help much. There is no real practical value in it. If you want to go to 16 GB of ram...different story...However a total budget breaker

BTW, if you order the ENvy with 2x7200 you can then decide later to replace one of them with an SSD. in order of low cost to high cost, here's how the options stack in my mind:


1. minimum configuration is the 2820, 8GB of std speed RAM, and 2x7200 rpm drives. 16GB RAM is just very expensive right now and probably won't advantage video editing as a practical matter, although it will allow your editor to hit the disk less often.

2 Get a 100-300 GB SSD, leaving only one HDD. This configuration would be slightly worse performing for video editing but probably good enough, but now because the primary OS drive is an SSD things will get snappier. just do not, under ANY circumstances, pick a 5400 rpm drive for the HDD. it won't work well for streaming video into your editor.

3. Add another SSD identical to the first one, and stripe the pair in Raid 0.
this is what fiver5 has done, with amazing results. this is overkill for video editing, but holy black angus what a sweet system that would be![/QUOTE]

dlleno is very wise with his advice....just wanted to show support. BTW...there is a total speed advantage to 2 SSD's in RAID, except over time the performance will degrade. RAID controller doesn't work with TRIM!

 

thank you guys... lots to think about.

Needles to say spec-ing up a system is always a pragmatic mix of budget, wish list etc... and also the sense of "for only a little more, I may not have to throw an expensive component away later..."
that last thought certianly applies to the RAM: It appears HP aren't unreasonable in what they charge... and if I start with 8g: binning 4 to upgrade later seems silly: so... might stretch to 12 now...
the 7200 rpm caution is very greatfully received ! looks like the 750 GB 7200rpm therefor.
For the second drive, looks like you guys may well have saved me money on splurging on a SATA III if I'll get no performance advantages.

looks as though the Crucial RealSSD C300 is at a good price break having said that: 256 GB, fast read speeds of up to 355MB/s-- and if the ENVY 3D only can deal with SATA II-- then I wouldn't see any advantage from anything quicker anyway.
That SSD is selling for (GB) £324.99 from DABS which is about US $540...
and is no more per GB than smaller drives....

 

and I should have said my thinking being: to copy data as well as OS onto the SSD whilst workign on it, before dumping it back to either an external drive, or indeed the HDD... a bit clunky: but Raiding stuff sounds like waaaay costly (albeit allowing you to really fly...)

 

There are a few on this board running SATA III on the Envy 17 SB. Look through this thread...may have over 400 mb/s and even more. The SATA III issue was settled long ago. Envy has it

 

good luck in choosing your system, and do let us know how things turn out! as for Raiding -- if you're willing to part with the SSD, the 2x7200 rpm configuration is actually the cheepest and highest performing (for video editing) short of raiding two SSDs! but yea the latter is crazy costly but equally crazy fast.

 

Hi everyone,

I have the Envy17 3D edition, Core i7 2820 (2.3Ghz) Quad CPU, and I noticed that in the drivers section on here we have the Intel Turbo Boost listed for download off the forums.

I looked up in my Programs area and I don't see Intel Turbo speed listed as being installed.

Is the Intel Turbo Boost driver on our systems at all by default from the manufacturer? Is there any way to verify this?

Should I install it? Anyone see good improvements?

 

Intel Turbo Boost Technology

Important Information
Only install this if your notebook has an Intel Core i3 or Core i5 mobile processor! Do not install this on notebooks with a Core i7 mobile processor.

 

damn, for some reason I skipped over that lol sorry and thank you before I made a bad mistake.

 

Crucial m4 and C300 are working great. I have a C300 and others with the m4 posted great results either and no problems. My SSD is also working perfectly.

 

I'm pretty sure that the benchmarks that Fiver posted would not be possible without the benefit of SATA3 so there is indeed a noticeable benefit to SATA3 support in the Envy 17 SB. That's not to say SATA2 isn't enough, as I work perfectly fine on my 160GB Intel SATA2 SSD.

1. A system with 12GB RAM may be slightly slower than 8GB due to the mismatch of RAM capacity; the memory may not be able to operate in dual channel mode.

2. There is a benefit to SATA3 with the SB Envy.

3. Right now the only three major SSD producers that people consider for performance are Crucial, Intel, and OCZ. However, if you are looking for best bang/buck while maintaining average performance, Kingston or Samsung are safe choices.

 

Ok guys. I installed the install of Win7 that Bobmitch so kindly posted. Without changing anythnig I benchmarked it and got the exact same scores. Then I tried to install the SSD in my work computer but it gets an error on boot up and cannot start Win7. It should work since it is a completely fresh install of Win7, right? Maybe my work computer has some lock or something. It is a HP Elitebook with Windows Enterprise.
So Newegg had a good deal on the Crucial M4. $220 with the cloning hardware. I ordered that and have to wait a week now to see if my Envy is broken or the OCZ Solid.
I have a question while I wait. Can I use my OCZ Solid3 that has the fresh install of Windows, download all the drivers, install tridef, photoshop, my games like flight sim, everything else, and then clone it over to the Crucial M4 when it gets here? Will it work and be the same as doing everything from scratch?

*EDIT*
I also forgot to mention that I have the factory install of my restore disks on the original 5400rpm drive in bay 2. Is there any problem of moving the files from that to the SSD? Files such as the SWsetup folder, tridef, etc

 

I guess you could...but do you really want to? Try it and see if it works OK. If yes...good to go...it not...be prepared

 

So your advice is to start from scratch with the M4? Or were you talking about the transferring of Tridef, SWsetup, Photoshop from the HDD to the SSD?

 

As long as you have the SWSETUP folder and Tridef folder backed up somewhere (only need from Tridef is the HP Activator)...they you can do a clean install. IF there is something wrong with the other SSD...and it causes errors on the OS, might transfer over to the new SSD...you could do a clone...and if the speed issues continue...you have THREE things that could be wrong. OS on first SSD has issues and clone transferred to new SSD, Second SSD has issues as well...OR Envy has issues...

Best to try to minimize what can be wrong. If you clean install on to a new SSD and your speed still isn't good...I suspect the Envy. If you do a clean install and speed is good...it was either incompatibility with first SSD, or first SSD is funky altogether.

 

I guess that should have been obvious. I will do the clean install and hope that it is the OCZ drive that was broken or incompatible. I don't want to ship back my laptop from Afghanistan and wait months for a replacement. Thanks for the help again Bobmitch.

 

Anytime...you know where to find me...

 

I don't think my support assistent have installed that yet tho it did install something like 2 days ago, but if and when it does do that, was it in control panel -> where next I'm not home now so sorry if i'm a noob and don't just look it up, on another computer right now

Isn't that already on the laptop? The turbo boost? Mine was. It said everywere, "with turbo boost up to 3.2GHz or 3 point something I don't remember

 

Usafpj i cloned my envy hd with the cloning tool of crucial, and all went ok.
Just when you recive the SSD you have to tweak the registry to disable intel lpm, wich causes some random freezes on sandy bridges processors. Its very easy and took me like 20 secs to modify the key.
I hope that changing the SSD will solve your problem

OCZ may produce the fastest SSD but since i bought it in USA and im actually in europe, i opted for the safety of crucial wich uses the same control that intel uses(returning from europe to usa, etc etc). Im glad i did.

 

This might be a silly question, but do you guys worry about dust in your laptop and do you clean it from dust? I mean how much can dust "destroy" The laptop, I know my HDX had a lot of dust in the intake fan and some other places but it ran the same as it did when it was brand new, didn't really notice any higher temps on it either but I could see that there was dust like that weird "sticky" dust on the intake fan etc.


Edit: And now I've bumped into something weird, I was on the site can you run it to just play around check some games, and it says that I have Mobile Intel(R) HD Graphics, I was like "what the?" Why doesn't it say the Radeon card? I'm plugged in on power and I don't know if it runs on the Intel or not, where can I check that? I guess it does run on it now cos the support assistant shows the Intel and only 728mb in graphic memory, and I'm totally lost, how do I change it back to Radeon and WHY have it changed "/

 

Re dust : my experience with all computers (desktop and towers as well as laptops) is that dust always comes with fluff : which screws up cooling : with desktops that's the power suPply fan ESP. But also the processor fan. With laptops : it's the fans again!

The solution I always use is an air gun attached to a compressor : usually used for powering a paint sprayer or pumping up Car Tyres. With an air gun on the end : that blows everything through fantastically. Forget vacuum cleaners. Hopeless.'don't remove anything. Getting a computer clean takes less than 5 minutes : just blow air through every hole going till the clouds of dust stop ! I've never damaged anything in 15 years of doing this and sorted out many an "overheating laptop"' that are typically a few years old simply with a fur ball inside.
Thus works great for cleaning laser printers - and power tools too

 

Right click on your desktop...choose "Screen Resolution" Then advanced settings. Should be the Radeon when plugged in. There are a lot of programs that see only the Intel...because it is built into your processor. Hwinfo32 sees it as GPU0 while the Radeon is GPU1. If the web site is testing for opengl...gonna fail...AMD/ATI isn't putting out opengl drivers to work. The Pavillion board is riddled with issues with the HD6770M only running DirectX compliant games.