T440s up on Lenovo website (IPS Screen, 1080p)

Yes, the irony is funny as WinPC makers increasingly aim for a more minimalist and Macbook look yet with decidedly un-Macbook cheapness in materials and components, allowing Macbooks to remain a step ahead.

The problem is that I suspect most consumers won't notice or don't care and will shop on price alone or because they're locked to PC software licenses. This is where Lenovo will still have an advantage because its machines are cheaper than Apple's. What I cannot fathom is how HP and Dell charge so much for their high-end laptops. I guess that's why both are losing market share while Lenovo's is growing.

 

Windows seems to handle the rMBP quite well, so FHD shouldn't be a problem.

Have you seen Apple's upgrade prices?

Apple's batteries are glued in!

It's glass, like with Apple

The first available drive is reasonably priced at $100 for 128 GB. M.2 is a lot less obscure than Apple's proprietary connector.

 

Agree, but a lot of people don't upgrade stuff themselves and just want to buy and forget, in which case Lenovo's upgrades are almost as pricey as Apple's. Applecare is relatively expensive but is an extremely good service if you live near an Apple store. For a lot of people their local Apple store acts as their tech support.

 

MacMall has the new rMBPs for around $50 less than Apple, and B&H only charges tax if shipped within NY state.

 

The T440s is just an ultrabook with a low power ULV cpu. Apple's competitor to the T440s is the MacBook Air, not the rMB Pro.
Apple's everyday price for their latest 13" Macbook Air Haswell i5 HD5000, 8GB, 256GB (PCIe SSD), 802.11AC is only $1399.

Retina Macbook Pros released today with full power Haswell mobile CPUs and Iris GPU are considerably more powerful than a ULV.

Considering the rMPB has a 16:10 Retina screen (best in class), OSX Mavericks multi-resolution Retina scaling, full power Haswell mobile cpu, Iris GPU, up to 16GB ram, PCIe SSD (comes default & blazing fast), 2 x Mini Displayport/Thunderbolt ports, HDMI port, 802.11AC WiFi (comes default), 9 hour 72Wh battery life, and the best Touchpad on the market, none of which the T440s can offer.

I find it incredible that Apple managed this latest rMPB 8GB & 256GB down to an amazing $1499 price with this quality of hardware in it.

 

Not sure I agree... the T440s is not really comparable to either the Air or the Pro. It sits in between them IMO. Not as "pro" as the Macbook Pro yet with greater capability than the Air.

 

How so?, or what kind of "repairs" in relation to batteries? I can't think of anyy. This is not in comparison to Apple. I thought having an internal and an external would be a pro or somewhat neutral. If the internal battery goes bad you still have an option to use an external. Please let me know because I there is only a $36 dollar difference between the 3 year sealed battery warranty + Accidental protection versus the 4 years. I was going to do 3 years. But I was thinking for $36 why not add another year and take my chances on the battery after all I have the option for two externals.

 

The problem for PC manufacturers is consumers are already no longer buying based on price alone. People have been willing to pay the premium for Apple products for sometime now. They've now reduced the price substantially and that price difference isn't nearly as big as it used to be.

PC's are dying, at the hands of Macbook's as well as iPad's- and the hands of Microsoft. I'm a student at a university (in Indiana) with almost 40,000 students, with an international student population that's almost 25% of that. It's rare to see anything other than Macbook's here. Only time you see Thinkpad's is with Chinese students, but even the heavy majority of them use Macbook's.

A lot of small and mid-size companies are slowly switching to Apple as well. There's no refuge anywhere, except perhaps the biggest corporations.

 

I agree with your thoughts. Macs are everywhere now. And well Microsoft isn't helping themselves with Win 8 either.

But it's not just the small & midsize companies anymore either, it's spreading. I work with and consult large multinational and fortune 1000 companies. A few years ago, sitting in their board rooms, all you would see were mainly Dells, HPs and some Thinkpads. Now all the execs have or want Macbook Airs & iPads!

 

That's exactly what Lenovo's marketing wants you to believe. Why do you think they used the T440s model number for this ultrabook, when the previous generation T430s it replaces was a full powered mobile notebook? The T431s was actually their last generation ultrabook, so why didn't they use T441s instead of T440s? They actually pay marketing psychologists big money for this stuff.

Fact is the internals inside the T440s and Macbook Air are the same Haswell ULV cpu generation, although Apple ponied up for the better HD5000 GPU instead of the cheaper HD4400 in the T440s.
It's just that the T440s is a pretty fat & bulky ultrabook compared to the Air, so you would expect it to be more powerful, but sadly it isn't.

 

I also seem to be seeing more Macs (and Macs have always been the dominant computer in education IME), but predictions of the PC's demise don't seem to be born out by sales figures, which show Apple at about 11-13% market share overall, a figure that has been only creeping up in the last few years and in general rises and falls along with shares of other PC makers (though it is double to 5-6% share Apple had a decade ago). Moreover, Apple seems to be eating itself if latest sales from the recent "back to school" quarter are to be believed -- they show Apple PC sales actually falling while sales of other PC makers increased.

 

I don't understand all the comparisons to the Macbook Pro.

Yes, the MBP is a great alternative if you do not care about the following:
- Keyboard with good travel and tactile feedback
- Touchpoint
- Hot-swappable batteries
- User-upgradeable hard drive
- Business-friendly ports (extra USB, Ethernet, VGA, docking station)

However, if you do not care about those features, then why are you even interested in the T440s? Even within Lenovo's line, something like the Yoga 2 Pro makes a lot more sense for someone who doesn't need those features.

From my perspective, the T440s is a machine that's targeted at a specific niche of the laptop-buying market, and that niche is not being addressed by the MBP. I can understand why people might decide to switch to one of the other business-oriented laptops from HP or Dell, but not the MBP.

 

Yes Lenovo cheaped out on a few components and comparing CPU and integrated GPU it does not compare favorably with the Air. But the T440s can be a two-drive system (M.2 and SSD/HDD) with a lot of setup flexibility, has active cooling, has higher maximum RAM (12GB vs 8GB for the Air) and it has options for multiple batteries, a dock connector, a dedicated GPU, a trackpoint (albeit possibly crippled), higher screen resolution, a better keyboard and more ports (including RJ45).

Don't get me wrong, I'm annoyed by how the T440s offers comparatively less than the T430s, but to suggest it's the same class as an Air is not entirely correct IMO. I'm certainly in awe of the Air and hooked up to a Thunderbolt splitter it's a phenomenal machine capable of doing a lot of what the Pro can do (I know a hollywood film editor, for example, who runs a full Avid editing suite off an Air), but something like the T440s just offers far more flexibility for me and ultimately is far more computer for the money. Obviously YMMV!

 

I think Macbook and Thinkpad market share is limited because most people (and some companies) prefer to buy cheap junk (with 1366x768 TN screens.) Apple cares more about profit margin than market share, so the situation isn't likely to change.

 

Yes, it's easy to forget that your average computer buyer is a large corporation with tight budget or the sort of people one sees at Best Buy looking at the $500 computers because that's all they can afford or want to spend. The average computer buyer is not someone who spends $2K+ on a Macbook or an HP zbook or a Thinkpad W540 (even though that might seem average to some of us ).

If anything I think the increase in tablet sales is gonna help, not hinder PC makers because people will want to spend less on a computer if they've already bought a tablet. In fact some data suggests Apple is literally eating itself as the popularity of iPads eats into sales of Macbooks.

 

To set the record right, let's look at the hard numbers. Apple again trails in the US market q3/2012-q3/2013 growth

HP 4.5%
Dell 3.3%
Apple -2.%
Lenovo 24%


Apple Again Trails U.S. PC Market in Key Back-to-School Quarter as Tablets Continue to Eat Into PC Sales - Mac Rumors

 

This has some truth to it. If you like apple and the main objective is entertainment, why not buy an ipad that much is much cheaper than mba?

 

Lol, I come back and we still have a bunch of Lenovo haters still discussing on T440s and how crap it is and most haven't even touch one. Funny bunch.

Anyways, I got my T440s with i5 and standard HDD.

Good:
- Love the high res screen.
- Construction is good. Less fingerprint magnet but you still get a little.
- removable batteries FTW
- the battery pack doesn't move around anymore
- Bigger battery currently shows around 16hrs idle on full charge with Internet Explorer, Chrome and Firefox opened.
- Load up times is really fast on Windows 8.
- Doesn't run hot
- Quiet machine
- Keyboard you all know. Works fine with me

Bad:
- Windows 8 takes time getting used to but it is really quick.
- Touchpoint sucks with no separate keys (however Windows 8 doesn't seem to be designed for touchpoint anymore (unless you are permanently on desktop mode)). You can sort of see why there are now new mice introduced that doesn't use a scroll wheel to cater for W8.
- Clickpad is too noisy (reminds me of those old school clicky keyboards).
- Have to get used again the Ctrl and FN keys being switched around since all other laptops in world works the opposite way.

Overall, first impressions is I like it (but then maybe I am biased since I own it! haha ). Some stuff I need to get used to but no biggie (as I am not old and grumpy).

And no, sorry, this can't be compared to a MBA (although I was thinking of buying the MBA 13 as well). There is more functionality with this laptop (e.g. VGA port FTW!)

 

You say all the bad things and yet many of your same arguments can be applied on the MBP13 - LOL

Just go and buy the MBP. LOL

 

Isn't there an option to swap these two in BIOS?

 

Yes but I can't be bothered coz the keys do say FN and Ctrl - I can adapt back. Doesn't take that long anyways.

I used to use a GB keyboard and a US keyboard and I could adapt with the different layouts so its fine with me.

 

Ok, lets really set the record straight, rather than manipulating the facts.

Those numbers aren't really surprising. Most Apple buyers were waiting for them to refresh their Macbook Pros & iPads which were announced months ago and released today.

But take a closer look at the units sold.

Apple sold 2,158,000 units
Lenovo sold 1,692,000 units in 4th place

In other words Apple outsold Lenovo by almost 500,000 units, despite Lenovo dumping PCs on the market for under $400.

So to get the real picture lets have a look at their earnings.

Apple Q3 July 23, 2013 earnings report
Revenues 35.3 Billion
Profit 6.9 Billion 19.5%

Lenovo Q1 Aug 15, 2013 earnings report
Revenues 8.8 Billion
Profit 174 Million 0.0197%

Basically Apple earned in profit what Lenovo earned in total revenue, and Tim Cook spent on lunch about as much as Lenovo made in profit.

Notice where the decimal place is in Lenovo's profit margin percentage?

 

I'm seriously tired of waiting for Lenovo to release this in the US. For the first time in years the screen doesn't seem to be abysmal, yet no touch option ...not even an option, what is wrong with these people, really? I never thought that possible given my hatred for Apple but I'm looking at those beautiful MBPs and I'm loving them. I may even go for the Asus x301 which looks beautiful apparently, seems rock solid and has True high end specs. Anyhow let's see what we get when they finally stop sitting on their arses and release it here.

 

Do you own an Macbook? If so, let's look at the real picture - Tim Cook likes to thank you for letting him screw you with higher profit margins

 

Personally, I don't care about the manufacturer's profit margin as long as i like the product, and this applies to any area of life.

I'm certain that the profit margin - looking at percentage obviously - is much higher on a pack of Winstons that I buy daily than on any laptop, my ToughBooks (since I don't own a Mac) included...

Obviously, to each his/hers own...

 

Yep, I agree on that. As long as its a good product, price is relative.

 

Oh another bad point of the T440s as I am using it:

I put my scaling to 125% - some programs (i.e. some non-MS programs) doesn't scale that nicely.

 

Yep, that's one way Apple is superior to Lenovo Apple announces new Macbook Pros and they're available to buy SAME DAY. Lenovo announces host of new machines in early September and STILL no-one knows for sure when they'll actually be able to buy one. October 29? Maybe. November some time? Perhaps. It's infuriating but, sadly, par for the course these days and, to be fair, Lenovo's not the only PC manufacturer playing the vaporware game.

 

To clarify my perspective -- here’s a mega post!

I'm not saying that Apple does right where Lenovo does wrong. I don't like Apple for many of the negatives you guys list. My point is that Lenovo ( and Microsoft) are increasingly offering the same downsides, making Apple seem like a viable contender.

1) My impression is that Windows XP-style scaling is hit-or-miss depending on the quality of the application. I need to do more research, but it seems like Apple is leading the way here.

2) Yeah, they're just as bad as Lenovo's!

3) It has a rubber coating. You can see two grease-spots in IBMThinks review if you look closely.

4) True, but SSDs are an upgrade for Lenovo while they are standard for Apple. I have a file server, so a 128GB SSD is more desirable than a 320GB HDD on the base models.

Lenovo charges the external battery first, meaning it takes more charge cycles than the interior pack and will wear out sooner than Apple's mega battery pack. I suppose the interior pack would last longer than Apple's battery, but you'll be tracking down two parts during the life of the laptop. Is Apple's solution better? No, but I'd still prefer Lenovo stick with one battery for simplicity.

1) Build quality
2) Minimalistic, utilitarian design

The hinges on my last otherwise-perfectly-functional laptop broke. I'm drawn towards the Thinkpad's no frills, productivity-oriented design and vetted durability. Apple laptops tend towards frilly, form-over-function design. Otherwise they share the same minimalist aesthetic and high build quality.

IMO, Thinkpads are the best PC laptops out there. If they don't cut the mustard, I don't have high hopes for HP or Dell to do any better...

Exactly. Many of the historical upsides of Lenovo ( and PC’s) have become the same downsides as Apple. If I compare a Thinkpad to a rMBP in terms of the market segment Apple has cornered, I'd choose the rMBP every time... but I'm not in that market segment. The problem is Lenovo has $$$ in its eyes and is doing its best to head that way.

Lenovo flipping the ThInkpad logo was their "jump the shark" moment for me -- a business tool vying for the profit-margin of a status-symbol. I don't mean to denigrate anyone's choice. A Thinkpad very well could be in my future. I just wanted to share my perspective.

 

Haha... I'm not sure anyone without a complex market model looking at annualized data can compare like with like when it comes to the computer market. Different manufacturers have different release schedules (and most PC makers were also awaiting Haswell refreshes in Q3, so Apple was not alone there). And one can certainly not compare financial statements from different fiscal quarters so casually without considering countless factors impacting the top and bottom lines that vary company to company, fiscal quarter to quarter and region to region.

There could be pissing matches for days on sales data if we're not careful

No-one's denying Apple's a larger computer vendor than Lenovo in the US... has been for years, although Lenovo dwarfs it globally in terms of unit sales and is catching up fast in the US (meanwhile, Apple's taking the fight to Lenovo in China). It's also no secret that Apple makes huge profits on its consumer electronics (one reason I don't own many Apple products).

What's interesting is that Apple's PC unit sales in the US declined not just in Q3 this year but also in both Q2 and Q1. Lenovo's grew in all three quarters by double digit percentages. Not sure there's a simple explanation for that, but figures from three quarters indicate a trend far better than a single quarter.

 

No, it is not "Exactly". You are actually considering buying a MBP even though many of the reasons you gave for rejecting the T440s applies to the MBP you want to buy!?

If you really don't like those problems, you should go with HP or something, not a laptop that has the same problems. I have tried both HP and Dell business laptops and they are good laptops too.

There are so much business laptops to choose from.

As for the battery issue - it's actually worse on the Apple as you can't get access to the internal battery. At least with the T440s, you can get access to the back by just unscrewing the backplate (very annoying though - wished they followed HP style that has no screw backplate removal). For the Retina MBP, they glued the battery to the laptop - it's not "just as bad" - it's worse - come on!

 

The new MBP was enticing until I tried their keyboards at a local Best Buy. I've come to realize I can only type happily on a Thinkpad keyboard or a mechanical keyboard (using a Ducky with PBT key caps ).

In fact, I'm returning my Yoga 2 Pro tomorrow due to the keyboard, not the blown-up 'yellowgate' issue. Just going to wait for the T440s or T440p now...

EDIT: Oh nice, I just checked Barnes & Noble Lenovo, and their discounts are applying to the new Thinkpads, finally. About 890 for the X240 and 610 for the L440, hopefully that assauges fears about pricing.

 

Interesting discussion - I'm going to pitch in as well.

I've had a X220 for about 2.5 years now - it's a great little laptop. The thing that I really don't like about it is the screen resolution. I want more.

I bought an Acer Aspire S7 which has a great screen, but the battery life and missing F keys are very frustrating, so I am thinking of selling it.

The X240 (or possibly the T440s, TBH the size/weight difference isn't huge) seemed to solve the screen resolution problem. But I just have no idea when or even if they will be available in the UK with the spec I want.

Assuming they do release the FHD screen to the UK and it isn't extortionately priced, I'm not going to be able to see what the screen looks like in a shop - I'm going to have to buy and try. What happens if it's rubbish?

If I go with a Macbook Pro 13 Retina, I get most of what I need.
* I think the Macbook keyboards are pretty good. They aren't the same as Thinkpads, but they are good and easy to type on. Backlighting is much better than on recent Thinkpads.
* If I spec up an X230 similar to the Macbook, the prices are not that much different. I'd image X240 + FHD will cost more.
* The Retina screen is a known quantity - they look great.
* The touchpad is really good. But I lose the trackpoint. I've not had a problem with this on the Acer S7 though - I think I have stuck with the trackpoint on the X220 as the touchpad is pretty bad.
* I'm worried about robustness compared to Thinkpads. I throw my X220 in a normal bag day after day and it just works.
* I'm also worried about the loss of onsite service and accidental damage cover. You can't beat Lenovo on this. I have had bad experiences with HP and Dell. Apple seem pretty good at fixing hardware quickly, but won't come to my house to do it...

 

Reviews of the non-touch FHD screen have been very positive except for slight backlight bleed at the bottom, so I don't think you need to worry about it.

 

The FHD models have touch versions.

 

Anyone know when this is coming out and in what countries?

 

Apparently the main release is next week, between Oct 29 and Nov 1. Not sure when shipping, although should be quick after that as it's already available to some regions and users.

S

 

it's not true - mean T440s will have normal voltage CPUs, like i7-4600M, just check Lenovo Solutions Center http://www.lenovosolutionscentre.co...Solutions Book - USA - October 2013 v2_1.xlsm

 

According to MyDigitalSSD the Y510P is only compatible with SATA M.2 SSDs and not PCIe M.2. Should be the same for the T440s

 

No, that's an error.

 

I think that is an typo, there are no T440s models with 37 W CPUs.

 

I tried typing on my gf's MBA to compare with my T410s. The ThinkPad keyboard is obviously much better, but the Mac one is good enough.
I installed keyremap4macbook to turn the Backslash key into a (forward) Delete key, which makes a huge improvement. Home and End could be remapped to some F-keys.

Belkin makes an expensive ($300) Thunderbolt dock with 2x Thunderbolt, Ethernet, FireWire 800, 3.5 mm audio in, audio out, 3x USB3 (limited to 2.5 gbps instead of 5.) It also works with Windows. Mixed reviews on Amazon.
Matrox makes a similar one which has either DVI or HDMI 1.2 (sadly not both, and no DP) but no Thunderbolt pass-through ports. Mixed reviews on Amazon.

 

will know it for sure when Lenovo fix this or someone buy it from amazon etc. & leave negative feedback on that model listed as i7-4600M CPU )

 

If the FHD touch screens have the same problem as the X1 carbon touch (a plastic protective sheet applied to the screen) I think we should stick with the non-touch version. The X1 touch screen is ruined by this, I've seen it and is rubbish.

I almost decided I will buy a 440s FHD, but I am still thorn about the touch/non-touch screen. If the touch version looks "about" as good as the non-touch version, I am sold even if it has a little more weight.

 

The T440s BOM is up:

http://download.lenovo.com/parts/ThinkPad/t440s_fru_bom_20131014.pdf

Plextor/Liteon M6S and PM841 TLC SSDs by the looks of it. No Samsung MLC Pro models

 

Intel SSDs too.

Interesting, there's a Panasonic-Sanyo prismatic and a Sony polymer internal battery. The external is prismatic. Some googling shows prismatic is cheaper to produce and is slightly lighter, but I doubt there will be much difference.

This document and others refer to an optional third NGFF connection, which would allow for a three-drive machine, or dual-drive + WWAN.

NFC is optional.

 

anyone have idea about diff's between
FRU Planar i5-4200U
FRU Planar i5 MS1
FRU Planar i7 MS3

from BOM

 

I think MS1 and MS3 are the last three digits of the part number.

 

Forgive me for not reading this whole thread before posting. It seems as if the T440 will be available for order next week sometime from what I've read. Will the "best spec" version be available immediately? Cost is not so much the issue. I want LTE WWAN (I assume this is going to be available now?), IPS screen and would prefer to just get the largest capacity SSD directly from Lenovo so that I don't have to mess with swapping to save a few bucks as I did with my current T420s unless there is some other good argument not to order it preinstalled. Thanks in advance for the feedback.

 

I'm curious: if build quality and minimalistic design are the key criteria for you, then why didn't you buy the Macbook Air? Or the previous version of the Macbook Pro, which was just as cheap as the current one if bought refurbished. I guess my line of thinking is that anyone who is currently planning on buying the T440s has already considered the Macbook line and rejected it for some reason, be it the keyboard, the lack of perfect Windows support, the non-replaceable components, or whatever. It surprises me that improvements like marginally better weight, thickness, speed, and battery life would flip anyone who had previously rejected the Macbook line.