*** MSI 16L13 (Eurocom Tornado F5)/EVOC 16L-G-1080 15.6" Owner's Lounge ***

Ah, excellent! I hadn't realised that was also the purpose of the Bitspower IHS. I think I remember you saying that the Bitspower IHS is 1mm higher than the standard IHS for the 6700K? If that's the case I think I'd go with the standard IHS I already have, as my NH-D14 already produces loads of contact pressure. I understand what you mean about the proper application of Kapton tape around the CPU, thanks for that explanation.

 

As I said in one of the posts, don't be scared if you hear Cortana in the welcome Wizard, that's just her ghost. she's gone forever in that OS. the welcome wizard is something else that you run just once so ignore it

 

Everyone with 120Hz screen please reply to this post and tag @Eurocom Support in your reply.

So, 381.65, 381.78 and 381.89 drivers are all confirmed to turn off the LCD backlight when the desktop loads... correct? However, I think it started before then.

Will those that always jump on the GeForce driver testing bandwagon please respond to confirm what the newest proven usable GeForce driver version is that does not cause black screen/backlight turned off problems with 120Hz panels?

If anyone is have the same issue with a FHD 60Hz G-Sync panel or 4K panel, please post and clarify this as well.

I think there are quite a few that are borked, but I have not kept track. I tested 381.89 WHQL last night to see what you guys have been putting up with and I had a difficult time recovering. Even using DDU to remove the cancer drivers did not fix the problem and I ended up having to restore my OS from a backup image to get the backlight to turn on again. Had I not made the image it would have been many wasted hours tweaking a clean Windows 10 install from scratch.

Please answer clearly so @Eurocom Support can go to MSI with good information on what they need to work with NVIDIA to get sorted. I think it's time for this stupidity to stop. The incompetent monkeys at NVIDIA need to put on their big boy pants and stop releasing drivers dipped in feces.

For what it is worth, I installed 381.89 drivers on my P870DM3 and while I don't have black screen problems on that machine, overclocking limits are impaired (reduced) and the system now has issues with screen artifacts and hard lock-ups using overclock values that have been working flawlessly since the day it was born. Going back to an older driver in the 378 branch fixes the nonsense with the screen artifacts and lower overclock threshold on the P870DM3, so it is clearly the Green Goblin's fault for releasing buggy drivers.

@Rage Set @Talon @Diversion @Mattsin @Colshert

 

FWIW, I am currently running 381.78 on the 4K panel with no issues. I know the problem is thought to be the 120 Hz 2K panel only; I just wanted to chime in with a data point since not too many others have the 4K panel.

 

@Eurocom Support On Creators update Nvidia drivers 381.65, 381.78, and 381.89 ALL break the LCD backlight on the 120Hz upgraded screen. In order to recover I have to use a flashlight to read my screen and uninstall with DDU.

Drivers 378.92, and 378.78 both work flawlessly with the update, but this isn't a long term solution as future driver releases may eventually be required. This needs to be fixed with Nvidia/MSI ASAP.

 

@Eurocom Support On Creators update Nvidia drivers 381.65, 381.78, and 381.89 ALL break the LCD backlight on the 120Hz upgraded screen. I have to connect to external monitor and roll back to 378.92, in which I have zero issues.

 

One step closer! The anticipation is killing me.

 

Speaking of Bitspower IHS, I got an email yesterday saying they are out of stock for Skylake version and will take 2~3 weeks to restock. I'll still keep my order in, so I can test it out to supplement the test Mr. Fox has already performed.

 

Went all out and ordered the 5.2Ghz rated Silicon Lottery binned 7700K, with special assistance from @Donald@HIDevolution (Thanks!)

From what I can read on various forums, it seems binned CPUs does run cooler while OC'd to reasonable 4.7~4.8GHz compared to non-binned CPUs. While I have very little expectation of running this CPU at 5.2GHz for any extended period of time on this laptop, if it does perform better thermally, I'd be very happy with the extra money spent on it. Combined with Bitspower IHS, I'd definitely like to see 5~10C drop in operating temperature but I'll make sure to test and report to the community as soon as I can.

 

Just be sure you order the Skylake Bitspower IHS for Kaby Lake CPU. If you get the Kaby Lake version it is unlikely you will see any benefit from it. The Skylake version is 1.0mm taller. (You may have already seen this posted, but I am mentioning it in case you did not see it.)

 

Duly noted and made sure to order the Skylake IHS, thanks for the heads up!

 

To clarify, going back to an older driver in the 378 branch fixes the nonsense with the screen artifacts and lower overclock threshold on the P870DM3, so it is clearly the Green Goblin's fault for releasing buggy drivers.

 

@Mr. Fox , do you happen to have the internal fan's model # or dimensions? I'd like to bring up the fan issue with an engineer and see if he can help improve the CFM or could recommend another fan that will fit in our laptop.

 

Yes, I posted that info somewhere already. Let me see if I can locate it. If you could get some action on that front it would be awesome. I am not a fan of using duct tape or bubble gum to attach the fans inside of the chassis. Having something that actually fits properly would be ideal.

 

I'm on it Mr. Fox. I know a good engineer who likes to tinker around with computer parts and definitely would like to make something happen on the fan situation. I'm still extremely surprised that there is absolutely no one making aftermarket laptop fans, but with BGA being so prevalent in the mobile computing market, I guess it doesn't make much sense for companies to invest in making parts for laptops.

 

I had this in a private message with @Mobius 1 a while back.

These fans are 90mm(W) x 85mm (L) x 22mm (H). I am wondering what the CFM and static pressures are. The CPU and GPU fan in the Tornado F5 are both identical parts. They can be swapped left or right.

 

Perfect, initial research found this.



If this is correct, the correct dimension should be 97mm x 97mm x 33~37mm (maybe they measure from the screw hole bracket). Also, this fan seems to be 'middle speed' version, so I've contacted Aavid to see if they can provide the exact specs, and any recommendation for another fan that is 'high speed'.

EDIT: Found this https://nttxstore.jp/_II_W814794874#

That is the exactly same model # as our stock fans, but it is the 'high speed' version. The dimensions should be exactly the same, but noticing the screw holes are completely different. Tempted to order one and see if I can mount screw brackets to it and give it a whirl.

EDIT2: Upon closer inspection, looks like it won't fit due to how heatsinks run through the stock fans. This fan does not have the same clearance near the exhaust to accommodate the heatsinks, but nothing a dremel can't fix.

 

@Eurocom Support I'm on Anniversary Update using 376.54. I thought I had disabled auto updates but whatever version of Nvidia drivers that WU decided to load blacked out my display. Reloaded a disk image to get back up again then tried the latest 381.89 direct from Nvidia. Same black out effect. After another image reload, I'm now pretty sure I have automatic WU disabled.

 

Awesome. It looks like they updated their table. Last time I visited their web site there were no matching numbers that I could find. It would be excellent if they can provide the same thing in an "H" version. Even if we had to disassemble the housing and put the new fan guts in the old housing that would be fine. Thanks for digging that up and reaching out to them. Maybe they can tell you the CFM and static pressure ratings of the M versus H as well.

 

Not a problem Mr. Fox, I'm just happy to contribute to the community any way I can. I went ahead and ordered a pair of the H version from Amazon Japan to test with. I didn't even think about swapping the internals out, in order to keep the stock fan housing, so hopefully it can be easily done. If not, I planned on using a dremel to cut out the clearance needed for the heatsink pipes, but still not sure how I can screw it down properly.

I'll let you guys know as soon as I hear back from AAVID regarding the stock blower's specification, but here is the specs for the H version I just purchased.

• Blower fan with dimension 93.7 mm × 97.18 mm × thickness 33 mm. Rotational speed 3500 rpm.
• The bearing structure employs a high-performance 2-ball bearing, achieving an expected life of 70,000 hours (45 ° C).
• Air volume is 27.08 CFM.
• The static pressure is up to 27.20 mm H 2 O and high static pressure.
• The noise value is 55.0 db
• Current value 1.05 A, Rated voltage 12 V (Operating voltage range 8 to 13.8 V)
• Cable length 300 mm Red wire (+) · Black wire (-), With 3 pin connector

I believe 3500rpm is pretty respectable, but not completely sold on the 27 CFM. There are 120mm that moves 50 CFM easily, but considering the size of the blower, it might not be a bad thing. We'll know for sure if this is indeed an upgrade once AAVID provides us with the stock blower's spec, but I'll do my own tests once I receive it.

EDIT: Could anyone find out what the maximum RPM on the stock fans and let us know? HWMonitor should tell us I believe.

 

I have tried a fan with very similar specifications... a few quick things:

• You will not be able to fit anything bigger than about 27mm thick (and even that requires some persuading.) If the fan I tested is really similar to the one you linked to, the body is 33mm thick and the blade is ~30mm and it will not fit with the bottom laptop cover on. I'll have to look at the P/N when I get home to see what it actually is.
  
  
• Using a 3-pin fan will require some type of PWM adapter (homemade or otherwise) to control the speed, otherwise they will only run at max.

My preferred fan so far is a delta that maxes out at 4000 rpm. It is native PWM but not plug and play. The wiring needs to be modified to accommodate the 16L13.

Some more teasers from another geek working on this:
This is a 27mm thick delta. (Stock is ~22mm). Other dimensions are similar to the stock fan but thicker with fewer fins and no shroud. (This is the thickest fan I have managed to put in the body without modifying the base.)

These are mounted with 3M HD automotive tape on the bottom and do not move at all. I originally planned to use my 3D printer to make a mount, but I'm not sure I need to anymore.

Spoiler

PWM converter for testing non-pwm fans...converts a PWM signal into voltage control.

Spoiler

The craziest fan I stuffed in here...a 'modified' desktop PCI slot blower. It was 100+mm long originally, but I cut it down to fit the case

Spoiler

Before the carnage...


after cutting several cm off the body...


Shoved in the 16L13... about 2mm thicker than stock. Oh the noise this thing made......

Another similar dimension delta fan, only 1-2mm thicker than stock, but much quieter with a similar thermal profile. (I ran out of HVAC tape...used high temp electrical tape)

Spoiler

 

That's great! Thanks. What kind of temperature improvements have you recorded with each setup?

 

I'll have to go in more detail in a future thread but...

All of the deltas with similar thickness have been quieter and have very similar thermal profiles (Not enough data to definitively say better or worse, but very close.) Even increasing the RPM up to 4000+ does not make a big difference in temperatures. I'll be collecting data on the super thick Delta setup this week. If anything will do better than stock, it will probably be the thick ones but I'm still skeptical. I think the radiator size and fin spacing is a limiting factor here. From my novice assessment, the heat pipes cannot transfer heat from the CPU to the radiator fast enough. Even the stock fans move enough air to do a decent job. I would love to have the GT73VR's setup of dual exit radiators (to the rear and side). It's a bummer when the BGA machine has better cooling than the LGA. I would buy a barebone version of the GT73VR with 7700k immediately...

EDIT: I still have another few fans en route to me. Still lots to test...

GT73 fan design...

Spoiler

 

Wow, you've been holding out on us! Joking aside, that's some amazing work and thank you for sharing. I've already cancelled my order for the H version of the stock fan, I tried to tell myself 33mm will work, or that it is a misprint because our stock fans should have 33~37mm height according to the model number. However, more I compared the picture of two, it is obvious the H version is way thicker and will require me to either cut out the bottom cover to accommodate the protruding fan (Which I was going to do anyways, for airflow) or hope that I can swap out the internals into the stock blower housing, which I doubt it will work after reading your post.

I assumed the stock fans had 3500rpm max speed, and hearing you say 4000rpm didn't make much difference is disheartening for sure. I wonder if the stock fan is already hitting the physical limit of how much air it can move and there isn't much here we can do to improve. Perhaps it isn't a issue with airflow, but how heat is being distributed/transferred in less efficient manner as you mentioned, which is going way beyond my knowledge level.

 

Interesting that you bought the 4K, same as mine. Other than size of SSD, we have almost identical machines. I'll be curious how you like the 4K panel. Let me know if you have any scaling issues, as I've solved almost all those here and may be able to help you.

 

@syscrusher , I've been a secret supporter of yours since I started lurking around here. I've seen you argue for 4K displays and always made me feel warm and fuzzy to know someone else out there understood how great 4K displays are. I never understood how people can tell me with a straight face 'There is no visual difference between 4K and 1080p on 15" displays", I'm pretty sure a blind man should be able to see the difference in clarity and color. I also heard people say "Well if you have to set scaling to 200%, that's exactly same as 1080P" and other silly crap, but I'm certain they never seen 4K on 15" display before if they are serious.

My previous laptop had 4K display and I absolutely adored it while watching 4K contents and browing the web. However, it only had a 960m GPU, so I couldn't really use the display to its full potential but the hype was REAL. The scaling did get a bit funky on certain applications but overall, I loved it and can't wait to see GTX 1080 bring it to life.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm strictly speaking from visual perspective of 4K displays. I'm sure the scaling issue will turn off a lot of people, which is 100% understandable. However, those who argue 4K isn't worth it because it doesn't look any better than 1080P on 15" displays are smoking the good (or bad?) stuff.

 

27 CFM for an internal laptop fan is actually about 6 times the CFM rating of most laptop fans. So, while it is kind of pathetic in one aspect, it's pretty crazy good in the context of what is out there. I think that if it is 50% more CFM than the stock TF5 fans it will be measurable and meaningful improvement in temps.

Yes, I would agree with that. Even if they were not larger, the air space between the fins is too wide. They could have roughly twice as many fins in the same space and increase cooling efficiency by a huge amount.

Our fans already run around 3500 RPM, but most of us already know that fan speed does not necessarily equal good air volume or static pressure. Yes, I think the stock fan is probably already doing the best it can, but the best it can do isn't enough.

 

I will need to try the bigger fans with the bottom removed. It is possible they are starved for air a bit too, but I'm not sure. It does seem silly there is no bottom vent directly under the fans but I'm sure there is a reason for it. I suspect for drawing air across other components.

 

Perhaps that was the original concept that looked good in theory, but I have already debunk that myth. Not having vents over the fans is just sloppy engineering and stands as evidence there was not enough R&D/QC in the design of the chassis for this machine. It does nothing to improve the cooling of other components and definitely impairs cooling for the CPU and GPU having the fans blocked off. Imagine putting a plastic bag over your head and breathing through a soda straw, then trying to run around the block. Not only would you be oxygen deprived, but your head would be burning up from trapped heat.

 

@Eurocom Support

So far anything above Nvidia VGA Driver 378.78 causes my 120hz panel to go extremely dim (pitch black). Now, I can somehow temporary fix it with a newer VGA driver if I do a full cycle through GPU video outputs (extended desktop, mirror desktop and etc) and the panel goes back to full brightness. However, if I let the computer sleep, upon awaking the panel goes dim.

 

Man, that is absolutely horrible. Glad you are able to temporary fix the issue but definitely not something I'd want to deal with on daily basis.

 

It can definitely put a damper on the experience, but between a temporary driver issue and being stuck with soldered components, I'll take the former every day of the year. That's the kind of sacrifice we make when we want options in an industry that doesn't want to give them.

 

Yeah, if this doesn't get fixed pretty soon my 60Hz G-Stink screen is going back on the Tornado F5. The 120Hz screen is definitely a better product, but there is something to be said for having a product that isn't broken or malfunctioning. It's just a shame that notebooks need to rely on an incompetent outfit like NVIDIA and their drivers for something as simple as brightness control. There is no reason for that "feature" to have any relationship to drivers. This functionality should be purely mechanical/electrical in nature with no relationship to drivers. The industry needs to stop, adjust their approach and reassess priorities because it seems like every year that passes things get goofier and dumber.

 

@Donald@HIDevolution, is there any word on brightness control progress for the 120Hz 15.6" 1080p panel? I had a chance to check it out for a moment last night after unboxing my machine and I know I made the right choice with the panel. I am willing to deal with rolling back on drivers, but it is nice to know that something is in the pipeline to get this working the way it should as much as possible.

 

It is in progress, but like so many things that are in progress, there is no real ETA available yet.
.

 

No problem. Thanks for the quick response!

 

Maybe not so relevant but I put it here anyway Gamers Report Core i7-7700(K) temperature spikes

 

Well said, can't agree with you more. This laptop and others similar to it are definitely a game changer for me, the fact that we can upgrade all the major components to this extent is just wonderful and worth the initial headaches that we might encounter along the way in my opinion. Having said that, I hope it gets resolved quickly!

Speaking of upgrades, it seems Coffee Lake CPUs will work on LGA 1151, which is great news for us. As for GPU, I truly hope we will be able to upgrade to Volta MXM cards in the future.

 

Amen to that! BGA will never be an option on a product that sells for more than $500 as far as I am concerned. Disposable garbage without gonads is never a good choice in my book.

 

That's great news about Coffee Lake compatibility. Volta compatibility would be great, hopefully they stick with both the socket and the philosophy of keeping the notebook and desktop chip the same as they have beginning with the 10XX series. I was blown away when NVidia announced the notebook specs. Now, give us back the ability to control our chips, NVidia.

 

It's not soldered components that are your problem, it's the panel you chose.

 

I don't have a problem with either. And as long as I can help it I refuse to have problems with soldered components. My screen is working perfectly, but even if it wasn't I would not consider my panel the problem. The problem is this industry that wants to control every aspect of the hardware by soldering all components together and releasing software that limits what can actually be achieved on these modern marvels. If I have to take a few bruises and ask for help from the kind folk here and am able to vote with my dollars for more options and more control than I will gladly accept these conditions. The conditions won't get better if my dollars are spent elsewhere because I let the possibility of having to find a fix for my nonstandard hardware get in the way.

 

Right on. Soldered trash is one issue. Cancerous firmware and zombie drivers (looks at NVIDIA) that impose artificial performance limits is another issue. Both are huge problems. Combine those with an undeniable element of incompetence and shoddy engineering and we've got a massive mess, and it is brand agnostic. The only piece of the mess that can brand-associated is the utilization of BGA filth versus the options that are not. Other than that, it's pretty grim any direction we want to look right now. Things have never been more pathetic with potential to be amazing if the control freaks would just find a hole to crawl into, curl up and die.

 

They have some absolutely bonkers fans in here that really would make the U3 fly!

http://www.aavid.eu/sites/default/files/products/fans/Aavid-thermal-fans.pdf

 

I've made contact with AVVID rep just few hours ago and discussed possible replacement fans for stock blowers, as well as any other options. I'll make sure to ask him about some great fans that will go well on U3 pads.

 

I was looking at the 120 X 120 X 38mm 6500RPM ones on page 37 that knock out 271 CFM (PEAD1A238BH) and are upto 70dBA at full throttle - I already have some noise cancelling headphones.

 

Good god, and we can fit 3 120mm fans on U3 right? That'll be a wonder to watch at full throttle, might just blow the damn laptop away!

 

I have 2 x 140 and 2 x 120 already but these are mental

 

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