*** MSI 16L13 (Eurocom Tornado F5)/EVOC 16L-G-1080 15.6" Owner's Lounge ***

Thank you

 

This is a never ending cycle of wait. You have to jump in at some point. Also bear in mind if you are a gamer and not really a performance enthusiast, if you buy a notebook with 1080 you're going to have enough GPU horsepower for a long time. If you look at the minimum and recommended system requirement for almost all games, they are pretty forgiving overall and most still work well with "antique" video cards that are nowhere nearly as potent as 1080 or even 1070... or even 980M for that matter. Gaming doesn't require the latest and greatest GPU and it never has.

If you're going to lower the bar and go for BGA filth, just get something extraordinarily cheap, like an Inspiron or Acer turdbook for less than $1,000 (for me the limit is $500 on BGA). If you want the ability to stay current on horsepower without having to rely upon the influence of proprietary GPU scams and soldered CPUs that are castrated as they roll off the assembly line, build a desktop monster and focus on minimizing your costs on mobility to the absolute bare bones browser/email/MS Office functionality, which is easily handled by anemic trashbooks that sell for the price equivalent of a few nice meals.

Don't sink any money into the toilet on a "high end" BGA turdbook. You're not accomplishing anything. If the GPU dies outside of warranty, you'll either be spending a fortune on a motherboard/CPU/GPU combo, or buying a replacement for it earlier than planned. BGA is a losing proposition no matter how you slice it unless you focus on keeping it extra cheap. On top of all that, most of them are too thin and light, poorly engineered and suffer from thermal management issues that, in many cases, are not correctable.

 

Thing is with laptops, the new GPUs aren't often compatible with previous laptop models unless you get lucky & find a work around or if they're offered officially - trying to think if new GPUs have ever been offered support on previous laptop models - can't think of one, but wouldn't mind being corrected if someone knows. I didn't realise you had a desktop with a GTX 980 in it - that's not a bad GPU, so if you can get your gaming fix on that, then I would wait for a new model of laptop with Volta, etc. If you're really into mobile gaming though, then that's not gonna stand.

 

I'm fairly into mobile gaming. It's not my primary time to game but there's a lot of times I go over a few friends houses and we'll sit around and play CS or Overwatch or something together for a couple hours. Other times I will go away for weekends and bring my laptop so I can game and do stuff at night while away. I also carry my laptop around with me all the time for work so I hate currently having a backpack sit in my car with my AW in it all day, and carrying another bag for work incase I stop at a friends house after work I have my stuff on me so we can do things. Do I fully need the power that's in this laptop? No, absolutely not but I would love it and it would be something that would not have to be replaced for mobile work/gaming needs for quite a few years to come and I am definitely interested in buying something once and not having to replace it for a long time and getting the most out of it. I don't have as much experience as you guys but I do consider myself an enthusiast and like to have the latest and greatest that I can when I do get something new.

In all honesty, if Lenovo had actually came out with the X1 Yoga Gen 2 with Iris graphics in it, I probably would have settled on that but they advertised a laptop and 5-6 months later finally released it without the specs it was advertised with so I'm done waiting for something like that. I know it would have been nothing compared to a gaming laptop but I think it would have staved off my mobile gaming needs.

@Robbo99999 Only reason I asked and thought it might be a possibility is because I know people have upgraded GPUs in some laptops pretty far. I know there are some of my generation AW 17s that people have put 980ms and maybe even 1060s in? And models earlier than mine that people were able to get 980s to work in. I know it may require some tinkering or modding of certain things but if the possibility is there, it's great to have even if you never use it.

I know it's a never ending battle of waiting vs committing and at some point you have to bite the bullet and jump in somewhere. I guess like @Mr. Fox says, if I am getting a BGA I should spend as little as possible. I feel like if I'm looking at spending as much as I would be on a P650HS-G I might as well bite the bullet and move up to the MSI and get socketable parts, and much better specs and performance out of it. The Clevo is only a pound lighter and like .3-4" thinner anyway and has no TB3. I drove to microcenter and held a GT62VR in my hands there and it definitely did not feel as thick or heavy as I thought I would so maybe I am over thinking the size of this machine, especially compared to what's inside of it. I just hate carrying my AW around but I know this one is significantly smaller than it.

 

Well I'd forget the BGA stuff, you say yourself that you like the Tornado better for it's more powerful CPU & socketed GPU which 'may' allow you to upgrade GPU at a later stage. ((Upgrading your GPU to the next generation is a BIG maybe, because the number of laptops that can be upgraded to Pascal GPUs from previous generations is a lot less than it has been possible in the past with say Maxwell & Kepler - it's all becoming more restricted & complicated in terms of aftermarket laptop GPU upgrades - this is my understanding.)) For you I'd see it more of a choice between buying the Tornado now, or later with the next gen. If carrying around 2 laptops (for work & gaming) combined with not having enough mobile horsepower is annoying you, then I think I'd buy the Tornado now so you can use it for work & play (so just having one laptop - I got the impression that was what you're after).

 

Couple questions for other owners regarding PCH temps:

It seems the chipset cooling is really poor on my unit... Or perhaps these new fans I'm using (which are otherwise great for CPU/GPU temps) are not drawing enough air across the PCH.
Idle temps on my chipset are generally between 80 and 90c. (See screenshot)

I use a Thunderbolt 3 dock at home and at work. Upon plugging in the thunderbolt device the PCH temps will shoot up very quickly (95+) and the system reboots immediately. Windows event viewer records it as a Critical Kernel-Power event (The system has rebooted without cleanly shutting down first.)

What chipset temperatures are other people seeing...idle and under load?
EDIT: Does anyone have pictures of the reverse side (PCH side) of the motherboard?
EDIT2: Nevermind--I found them!

 

also your memory clock speeds are very slow, CAS 16 at 2400Mhz is like Micron levels of slow...

but yeah Your PCH is going to kill your whole machine if it gets hotter

Where did you buy it from ?

 

Stock speeds for my ram?

Its a Eurocom unit. I've seen it reach 105c and then shutdown. Judging by the tear-down photos there is no thermal pad or anything on the PCH. Dang...must be something goofy with the airflow in my case with these different fans.

 

Guys, received another email from Aavid regarding the fans. They offered to send me 4 spare stock fans, free of charge, and wanted to know the specification of blower that we are looking for so he can continue searching for something that will work for us.

I've told him we have no idea what the specs are, because stock blower's specs are not public. However, I sent him the pictures Mr. Fox took, showing the dimensions, and asked him for anything similar to it with higher CFM. Very grateful that Aavid offered free fans and willing to dig deeper to help us out, will keep you guys updated.

 

If you are willing to sell 2 of them, let me know. My stock fans made awful grinding noise from the factory but I would like to benchmark my current fan mods against stock fans in good condition.

 

Don't be silly , no need to pay for it. I'll send you a pair once I get them, just pay for shipping ^^

 

Yeah, something isn't working well. Same with stock fans? You can risk similar like this increased PCH temp with mod bottom lid. A mod U3 will help on PCH temp. You need to push more air into the chassis.

 

OK. Did some SSD testing and I can confirm that the difference only occurs when the full fan button is engaged. From a starting temperature of 42C, I ran ATTO with and without the vent hole plugs, the averages over a few runs were:- With plugs = 56C Without plugs = 61C.

When the unvented fans are running at max they are pulling more air over the SSD in through those front case vents.

 

PCH on this machine is on the keyboard side of the motherboard and has nothing on top of it to help keep it cool. My PCH temps stay below 70°C even when overclocking. I also always run on a U3 cooler at all times with both of my laptops. Even so, there needs to be something to cool the PCH. After I am done working with Prema on the EVOC BIOS mod I am going to investigate a cooling mod for the PCH. Unless someone wants to beat me to it first. I am not sure how much air space there is between the chassis and the PCH, but even putting a 1.0MM copper shim on it with thermal adhesive should be better than bare PCH. I did notice a decrease in PCH temps corresponding with a decrease in SSD temps. I doubt those are directly related, but maybe the air space in the chassis getting hotter was an impediment that surfaced as warmer PCH temps.

So, in real world use you would be perfectly fine it sounds like from what you have tested. I think 56°C versus 61°C is fine and should not be thermal throttling at either temperature. I was seeing 90°C and higher on the 960 Pro with the thermal pads stuck between the SSD and motherboard, and that was with normal use, not even running SSD benchmarks.

 

As a frequent traveler, who'd prefer not to carry U3 everywhere, do you expect any temperature issues with PCH? I'm worried without it, I won't be able to keep the temperature at bay for CPU/GPU, let alone PCH now. Did you ever measure the temperature without using U3 by any chance?

 

I do not think that is normal. I think the high PCH temps are something specific to his machine. I saw someone with a Clevo (I think it was @Chronokiller but can't remember for sure who it was) that was experiencing a similar anomaly and it's not a problem that others with the same machine are having. Maybe someone that doesn't have a notebook cooler can mention what their PCH temps are. If not, I will stop using my U3 and check for you.

 

Want me to take a look at it ?
I can create a small heatsink for you and work it until perfect for the rest of the thermals.

I've configured, and sold enough to know this specific laptop like the back of my hand.

otherwise a quick and easy fix you can do is to get a small RAM chip copper heatsink with some double sided tape or glue and stick it to the PCH.

I do this all the time, especially on the newer models of Alienware - if you do not cool the PCH it will constantly throttle. (cool the PCH and those Alienware's can outperform most non-BGA laptops, if you know what your doing)

The F5, when handled well, is a beast.

 

Is this what you are referring to? If so, should be relatively easy mod to lower the PCH temperature and would love to do some testing on it once I receive it for everyone.

 

Does the Tornado F5 have enough space between the PCH and the underside of the palmrest to put one of those in there? That's along the same lines I am thinking. It does not take much to cool it, but I am not certain how much room is there. The P870 family and all of the Alienware laptops I have owned only have a thin metal plate with two screws holding the plate, and that has always been enough to keep it cool.

One of those will work great if there is enough room for it. The adhesive thermal tape on them is poor quality though and it will eventually fall off. I had it happen to me before, and that rattling around in the chassis can cause a short and fry something. Clean the tape off and use something permanent like thermal epoxy. Just make sure it fits first, and you can use the tape for test fitting.

This works really well for something permanent. I will not come off... ever. Even if you want it to, LOL. So test fit first to be sure. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0087X7262

If those are too thick, a 1.0MM copper shim should work. Overhanging the PCH chip on four sides might actually be cooler than the chunk of copper, since air will be able to circulate on both sides of the shim.

 

Wow dude, fantastic! Just let me know when you get them and I'll hook you up immediately. Thanks a bunch!

Thanks for the offer. I'm going to rip her apart in just a minute. I have a ton of copper shims and heatsinks I can try. I'm worried about clearance, but there must be room to at least get a shim in there.

Those look almost exactly like the ones I have. I really doubt they left that much space between the keyboard and motherboard but we'll see. I'll figure something out...

 

Same also for P870, but my U3 mod with decent fans push more than enough air into the chassis and cool very well, although the PCH chips is on the other side on the MB. Work wonders bro Fox Even better with Fn+1 and max fans. But the weak 5v standard usb fans on every notebook cooler out there don't do much. Tested

Edit. Work also very well for my Samsung 950 Pro NVMe drives under the keyboard!! Haven't any heat problems

 

Yes, I agree. PCH has never been hot on the Sky X9, my P870DM-G that @Rage Set purchased or the EVOC P870DM3.

Here you go. No U3 cooler and no max fans. Machine was in use for web browsing for 1 hour before running wPrime 32M and 1024M. I also put in my chip with the stock EVOC 16L-G-1080 BIOS, so no Prema magic or anything.

 

Simply awesome, thank you.

 

No problem. Here is another example with CPU undervolted even more. (I have never run stock clocks before, so I'm not sure how low I can go. I always run minimum of 4.7GHz.) Using 1.055V for 45x4 seems fine, and the core temps are also very cool.

 

You are correct @Mr. Fox, it was I who was experiencing PCH temperature issues with my 870DM-G, sometimes reaching temps above 110C before thermal shutdown. Even after a motherboard replacement I still have issues. If I don't run the fans at maximum while gaming, the machine will perform a graceful shutdown after a while. The bizarre thing is when checking the event viewer, the reason for shutdown is stated as power button or lid. Both of which I've disabled to no avail.

Here is a picture of our PCH heatsink for reference:


Good luck with the custom cooling solution, it seems like the only option left.

 

Thanks for posting. So, even the mobo, eh? Wonder if something is goofed up with the CPU causing that? You're the only person I know of with that issue on the P870, so it almost has to be something like the CPU if it already has a new motherboard.

 

Posted before. Some fun on the internet, as I usually do +7 hours and the laptop fans does not even start the cooling... Only the use of my U3. PCH temp walking around 40C.

 

I just ran a Unigine Valley run for ~10 mins, CPU hit 68C, PCH hit 87C, GPU's were 92C and 82C. Not using max fans, just stock profile. No overclocking. Ambient temp ~22C (~73F)





I'm a little jealous of the 40-50C range ya'll are reporting

 

Could anyone do me a yuge favor and measure the laptop's length? Just bought a very nice 15.6" messenger bag and its looking a bit tight when I put in my work laptop, which is about 15.3" inches. I see on Eurocom and HIDevo's website that it is 15.6" in length, but just wanted to make sure. Would truly appreciate it!

 

I measure 10.5 inches front edge to back edge and 15.25 inches from left to right.

 

Well, being you're from Texas and all that, maybe the beast is eating too many Serrano or Chile Pequin peppers when you're not watching. Those are definitely my favorites.

 

I eat Chili every day. But we haven't many options here home. Enjoy

 

Well, there is plenty of room on top of the PCH. I dug through my collection of stuff... stuck an 8mm tall heatsink on it. So far so good.

I also removed the fat thermal pads under the SSDs... the PCH is directly under them.
Put some passive cooling on the SSDs too. Time for some temp testing.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

Preview of a single fan....three of them plus my old Tornado fan will be attached to my cooler pad.

 

That's insane, bro. Sounds like a siren, LOL.

 

Well I went back to the stock IPS today. Was having too many issues in mass effect unless I was on the newest drivers. I am thinking I will just sell my 120hz panel since I have the 4k screen and cable on the way.

 

Yes but I am somewhat numb to the sound. They do remind me of the fans we use at work. When I had all three hooked up, my girlfriend came downstairs, stared at me for a couple of moments and then walked back up. I think these might be the fans that will annoy her.

What I have decided to do is purchase a new U3, one for these new fans and the other for the older setup. When I can get those extra bottom covers, coupled with an AC and U3 Extreme Cooler I'm building, I might be able to do some damage....score wise

EDIT: I may have to put a disclaimer in all of my future OC'ed scores when I use it. I see people now complaining that my scores are unrealistic or fake, hahaha.

 

My god, that is insane. You seriously might have to anchor your laptop somehow with four of those blowing from underneath, you could probably float a puppy or something on that thing.

 

It is all thanks to @madeinholt When I saw those specs on these fans, I had to have them. If things go good with these, I'm going to buy a few more and stick them in my DTs (with a capable controller of course).

 

Where did you order the screen and cable from?

 

I would not have a problem with it, but this would not go over well with Mrs. Fox. She already has to put up with a lot from me, but I think that might be more than she would allow me to get away with.

 

Ha, time for insanity to strike!

 

Ha, that's a good one, very funny scene, does say it all!

 

+1.

You can have an infinitely fast machine with infinite storage for free...if you wait an infinite number of years.

 

FWIW.... Your needs are similar to my own in some ways. I'm using one of these (the EVOC 16L-G-1080 from HIDevolution) primarily for work, but it's also my personal machine after hours. I'm a gamer, but not as rabid about it as many on this thread. OTOH, part of what I'm doing is creating 3D content (architectural renderings) that use game-development tooling but for non-game purposes.

I had a really spectacular BGA machine from one of the leading manufacturers, and it died just two days before the end of my RMA period. When they said they would have the machine for 10 to 14 days for the repair, I buzzed out, invoked the RMA for a refund, and decided to rethink my choice. This MSI-based machine is thicker and heavier than the sexy BGA machine I had before, but it's much more field-serviceable. HIDevolution will ship parts to me anywhere in the world so I can fix my own machine in a day, instead of shipping it off for a week or more. When it's my work machine, that matters a great deal.

The EVOC is also significantly faster. I was benchmarking the BGA machine (which also had a GTX 1080 onboard) at about 14200 on FireStrike. The EVOC consistently gets over 17000 for me on the same test. The CPU is also faster; I'm reliably clocking at 4.7 GHz turbo mode, versus 4.2 on the BGA. The EVOC runs non-turbo as fast as the BGA ran turbo.

The other advantage of a machine like this one for work is storage expansion. You've got two NVMe M.2 sockets plus one traditional 2.5 inch SFF SATA slot. If you need a huge amount of storage, you can put a screaming M.2 at 1 TB or 2 TB into one socket, then get a 4 TB SATA SSD (which is expensive but not prohibitively so) for the SFF bay, and still have the second NVMe socket available for when those come down in price.

I'm not necessarily saying to get this particular machine, just pointing out that if you're combining a work and personal role for the system, getting something a little less sleek but a lot more field repairable and expandable may be a good plan.

 

Yep, they sound just like the flood sirens we have down on the coast!

No, thank you. I think you have saved me from divorce

 

Found another spot to stick some copper blocks on the GPU heat sink.

 

Anyone knows what might be causing the windows stop error code with a blue screen? I'm thinking it was my undervolt to 1030 static on a 4,4GHz clock, I bumped it up to 1050 for now, but if you have any Idea let me know.

Edit: It happened while I'm playing Mass Effect Andromeda Multiplayer, the GPU wasn't overclocked or anything.

 

What is the stop error code? Need to know that first. If you are not sure, download WhoCrashed and run that and it will scan the dump files and give you more info.

 

That F5 will be worth a fortune in scrap by the time you're finished with it!