*** MSI 16L13 (Eurocom Tornado F5)/EVOC 16L-G-1080 15.6" Owner's Lounge ***

Did this on the P870DM3 with equally impressive results...

 

Some good tips there, I'm new to liquid metal, only done it once on a desktop CPU, I'll definitely take on board some of your tips there for my next liquid metal adventure! The lapping part was also useful, I've never seen that done before, and it makes it a lot more accessible to me - I'm quite certain I could do that on my desktop CPU - perhaps next time I take my PC apart.

 

BGA FILTH SUCKS. +rep

 

If money is no object the HID is better as stated in previous messages but you can't match Eurocom for price especially if you live in the UK like myself and 10% student discount. For me I would have to pay almost an extra £300 plus for similar specs...

Proud owner of this machine from Eurocom.

 

What are the specs of your complete build? Are you delidded and factory overclocked? What TIM was applied to the gpu/cpu? Did you upgrade to the Prema BIOS? Was there an additional cost for that as an option? Does Eurocom offer the CMOS mod? There are other factors that are very important to consider with this book. With the 7700k and GTX 1080 combo heat is going to be an issue when running demanding applications. Even Skylake with the GTX 1070 is going to benefit from many of these modifications. If you look at the whole picture, paying a bit more upfront is worth it when looking at how much the initial investment is...

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Hey @Mr. Fox I posted awhile back about having this awesome little beast and I think it just got lost in the shuffle.

But I was wondering some good tips you would recommend for getting the most of this guy. I haven't sent my unit back in to the the Prima BIOS on it but I plan on doing that soon and getting the modified bottom cover while it's there. (They discount it if you let them do it while they have it)

So other than that are there and apps or configurations that you would recommend to do to this right out of the box. I have loved the few months I have had it and just wanted to get some tips. Thanks!


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Yeah, I must have missed it with all of the thread traffic. Sorry about that, bro. So, congrats on owning the most bad-ass 15-inch beast on the planet. Sweet ride for sure.

Other than web surfing and email, I do mostly overclocked benching. A little gaming now and then, too. Not as much as I would like to.

Probably the most useful apps you can have are ThrottleStop and HWiNFO64, and RivaTuner Statistics Server. I use RTSS with HWiNFO64 and output select readings to my screen to monitor thermals. You choose what you want on your screen and the layout of how it appears using the RTSS tab in HWiNFO64. Nothing will be as sweet for your machine as having the @Prema BIOS.

Here is an example of what I am referring to in case that is not something you are familiar with.

 

Awesome thanks! I'll download these. Any specifics to change in these apps until I get the @Prema BIOS?


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For HWiNFO64 refer to these images from my imgur account. Ignore the fan control stuff (doesn't work for MSI and Clevo, only Dell/Alienware) - HWiNFO64 Setup Steps
For ThrottleStop, I have several videos in my YouTube channel. You can check them all out at www.youtube.com/mrfoxrox2 if you do not get enough out of this one...

EUROCOM Tornado F5 7700K ThrottleStop Settings

 

Can you guys change your command rate timing to 1T for moar points?
2T is for BGA jokebooks and cancer firmware. 1T is for people who have ascended.

 

I wish that were actually true for notebooks. It might be true if something good were available for us to purchase. G.SKILL 3000 and 3200 is as good as it gets for notebooks, and it seems like a poor quality product based on everything I have seen. It is pretty sad when the best product available isn't very good. That seems to be par for the course where notebooks are concerned.

Mine defaults to 1T on the 16L13, which is extremely irritating because that creates stability problems when you are tethered to a wussy 1.200V for the RAM. I have to use a custom memory profile and change it to 2T. 1T might be fine at normal clock speeds like 2133 or 2400, but it is not stable at 3000 or 3200. Too many Windows lockups and blue screens running 1T with high clock speeds, or even unbootable in some cases.

What we need is really awesome quality enthusiast-grade RAM for notebooks, and I don't believe such a thing really exists. I think part of the problem is hardly anyone takes notebooks seriously as an enthusiast plaform. Everyone makes excuses for lameness, so that's what we end up with. That's exactly why we have BGA filth, too. You do that stupid nonsense and the lameness and mediocrity becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

As long as the people that build them and most of the people that buy them think, " meh, it's just a notebook so you can't expect too much" this situation won't improve. They need to be built with the same exacting precision and focus on extreme overclocking reliability, performance and military-grade durability as a ultra high end desktop enthusiast motherboard, like an ASUS Rampage Black Edition mainboard.

Just look at the bare VRMs and MOSFETS and PCH with no cooling on the MSI products, or the chintzy garbage on an Alienware (tripod and no cooling on some things like MSI), or the half-assed dog-leg setup tacked onto the CPU heat sink on the P870 for cooling those components. That kind of crap was equally Mickey Mouse'd even on the mighty P570WM. It's like everything important is an afterthought (or not even on the radar) for the imbeciles that design notebooks.

I guess they (notebook OEMs/ODMs) are satisfied making their money by slopping out broken garbage en masse to the kiddos that gobble up the emasculated filth like milk and cookies.

 

Is there any significant reason why a laptop couldn't be built to accommodate desktop memory? I know real estate is a premium in laptops but it doesn't seem like a huge difference between the two form factors to a layman like me. We have a desktop CPU in a 15" laptop after all, memory should be simple.

 

Pretty hard with all the gigantic heat spreaders you're seeing these days.
How often do you see a bare stick that isn't some cheap valueram?

 

Yes... space - those take up at least twice as much motherboard real estate in terms of length. Even in a massive machine like the P870 the space for extra stuff is severely limited. Otherwise, I can't think of any other excuse.

 

It's not just length but also height. SO-DIMM memory sits pretty much flat when installed in a laptop so it's easy to stack two sticks on top of one another. For desktop RAM, you might be able to do this with the cheap stuff that most OEMs include in their machines, but it would be impossible if you're talking about high-performance modules that have heat spreaders.

 

Do you know those PCI-e risers being used for GPUs? I'm thinking maybe use something like that for the RAM slots, that converts to the desktop grade, at least for benchmarking purposes.
@Mr. Fox anything like that exists?

 

Again, how would you fit it, unless you wanted to make the chassis 3 inches thick or more?

 

I think they could make the height work for those of us that don't give a rat's ass about thickness. Thicker and heavier is fine by me. But, I don't think they would need to go thicker on the real high performance notebooks. Thinner and lighter means it is a wussbook and a wussbook doesn't deserve any better components. Most of the high performance notebooks worth having already have plenty of air space to accommodate this. They could lay them flat and still fit the performance sticks with heat spreaders in the chassis. The length of the sticks would be the hugest problem. There is almost never any extra space on a motherboard for more stuff. Occupying double the footprint on the PCB would be a massive undertaking. The height for the Tornado F5/16L-G-1080 and the P870 would not be an issue if they used a horizontal orientation like laptops always do. There is already plenty of air space in both of these machines without any need to make the chassis thicker.

 

Hey guys... new GeForce driver mod up from the master driver modder, Brother @j95

Get it over here... http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...94-findings-fixes.807276/page-5#post-10575421

 

Did you notice the last few words? "For benchmarking purposes only" so I don't care if I drop out the bottom panel just to plug in those juicy modules for benchmarking. I mean we already use a thick 300watts PSU and @Mr. Fox is using an A/C unit for cooling, why not go the extra mile now?

 

I'mma donate to this brother as soon as I get my Typhoon back from HID sometime next week, count down started, can't wait!!

@Donald@HIDevolution , @Ted@HIDevolution , @thattechgirl_viv , @Zoltan@HIDevolution and Juan have been a great help to set up my machine the way I want.

Thank you @Prema for the hard work you put with @Mr. Fox .

No ass-kissing here, it's all hard work by those folks.

The community here is also a great help, I love it here

brother @Phoenix is kinda MIA here......lol

 

Awesome. And, @j95 is very deserving of your kind generosity. Thank you.

 

Awesome! Thanks a ton!


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You also deserve some cold beer bucks! Hit me with your Paypal, it's not much but sure good for a nice meal

 

Agree. That probably applies to most of the people shopping for used laptops to save a few bucks. I'd be inclined to believe that most are not going to be too picky about the screen refresh rate. As long as it is 1080p I think most will be satisfied. The only screen option I would avoid when buying a used laptop (because I hate it so much) is 4K or something less than 1080p. If I had two or more options available... one 60Hz and the other 120Hz... the option for 120Hz would be a no-brainer. The components most likely to be key in the buying decision would be the CPU and GPU.

 

So whats the point of socketed laptops if it wont get decent upgradable CPUs anyways. I mean upgrading from 6700k to 7700k was nice but I really wanted the hexacore upgrade.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-coffee-lake-cpu-motherboard-asrock,35147.html

Any news on a new motherboard for 16L13? I want my hexacore on a 15inch.

@Mr. Fox @Rage Set @ajc9988

 

For one thing, being able to BUY your own pre-binned 7700k or 6700k and then installing the CPU yourself in the laptop (I believe you can have this as a customization, with no CPU).

 

It is actually a bit too early to conclude anything. It may be true, but they said the same of "Kaby Lake", and that turned out to be wrong.

Too early for news on a new 16L motherboard as well.

 

Simply because the BGA cpu's are not very good. It is a significant improvement over any BGA quad core. Most people were not expecting that they would be able to upgrade too much. It simply has available the most power per square inch, and is easily serviceable.

Simple representation of BGA flagship vs i7-7700K without significant overclock shows about +30% more performance:
http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i7-7700K-vs-Intel-Core-i7-7820HK/3647vsm224965

If you need the more cores, you could wait it out. I am almost positive Eurocom is working on one for 2018.

 

You are correct on that but a big advantage socket offers its upgradabilities(supposedly). For example, AM4 will be supported to 2020....

 

That chart is a red herring.
The Base clock of a 7820HK is 2.9 ghz, while the base clock of a 7700K is 4.2 ghz. That is the 30% performance right there.
However 90% of 7820HK's will overclock to 4.2 ghz. 100% will reach 4 ghz. Some will do 4.2 ghz at 1.0v (undervolt) which is what an average 7700K will do. But yes, golden 7820HK=average 7700K.

At the same clock speeds, the IPC is identical. And very few systems will run the 7820HK at 2.9 ghz anyway. The MSI boards default to 3.5 ghz after a fresh hard CMOS clear, and 3.9 ghz at normal user defaults. So that chart is a terrible representation of hating on the BGA 7820HK.

 

But but but I can run my 7700k at 4.9 GHz all day ery day! With a few more mods, I may be able to reach the board limit... I rarely see temps in the 80s...

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That has nothing to do with it. Where was I arguing that a BGA filth is as good as socketed?
I was saying that the chart is completely illogical, especially when AIB's don't even follow that (e.g. MSI).

2.9 ghz is the "Intel" base clock, while MSI sets this at 3.9 ghz on all of their systems. (although sometimes turbo boost override gets turned off and then its 3.9 1 core-3.5 4 cores instead of 3.9 on all.
Now if you want to disable turbo boost on the 7700k and 7820hk, then yes those clocks are "correct." But to use that for a speed comparison is just all kinds of wrong.

 

It has everything to do with it. Show me an example of a BGA chip running similar ipc and hitting those frequencies at my temps...

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IPC is the same regardless of clock. A i7 7700hq have the same IPC as our 7700k.

 

Ok.
1000 points on cinebench on my 7820HK @ 4.5 ghz at 1.10v.
939 at 4.2 ghz at 1.0v.
Temp comparisons are irrelevant here because heatsinks, thermal compounds, aren't the same or even similar on all systems (e.g. shared heatsinks, Clevo "gap"DM/KM design flaws, Alienware Tripods, MSI Vacuum cleaners, etc).

 

Actually 7700HQ has slightly less IPC because cache size is 2mb smaller. 7820hk and 7700k have same IPC at same clocks though.

 

Now you're just minimizing the performance gap to suit your argument. There is a major performance benefit to be had if you care for it. Is it for everybody? No. And that's okay. I'd still argue that lower end chips would benefit from being LGA because they are serviceable. You don't have to replace everything if that component dies. It's more flexible. The only argument to having everything soldered is size. If you must have the smallest form factor okay. Everything else really has no excuse to be soldered. There literally is no other advantage over LGA.

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Why are you verbally harassing me?
You're bombarding me with fallacious arguments after i said a chart discussing chip speed differences shouldn't be used because of absurd base clocks.
Now you're attacking me. i don't appreciate that in the least.
I'm done replying to you. I don't want to have to put you on ignore but I will if I must.

 

I apologize if you feel that way. I thought we were having a conversation.

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My next notebook is going to be a socketed laptop, not BGA.
I only got the BGAbook because at the time, it was the only option I had under limited time and because @Papusan and @Mr. Fox didn't teach me how to swim yet. If I could do things differently, I would get a D775(?) Clevo with a Prema Bios, or a F5, but what i have will have to do. I did win the lottery on the CPU, but I have to wait for some sort of unlocked EC to push it hard because of hard AC power limits in the EC

 

I meant that apology. It wasn't empty. It's okay to have different opinions. Your post came off as reducing the difference between the two when there is no point in comparing them clock for clock. Maximum daily performance is a better way to view each chip set in my opinion. I'm not slamming you for having a BGA book. I'm just trying to get the full picture across. There isn't a BGA chip that is completely comparable to LGA. That's all. Once again, sorry.

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BGA will always and forever be worthless trash in what is supposed to be a high performance product. I put it in the same category as the chewing gum and boogers stuck on the bottom of a table in a greasy spoon diner just up the street from a trailer park on the bad side of town. Nasty, undesirable, castrated filth. The comparison of IPC and clock-versus-clock is all smoke and mirrors pacifier excuses and mumbo-jumbo just for BGA fanboys to not feel like they got shafted for their lack of buying discretion. If you have to max out the overclock on a BGA turd CPU to do what the socketed equivalent does with both hands tied behind its back, that's pretty stinking lame.

I have the BIOS set on the P870 to boot and run the 7700K at 5.2GHz with c-states disabled. Yes, I can actually use it like this with the right cooling tweaks in place. Here were the overnight idle temperatures. I stopped using it at 8:30 PM and got up at 3:30 AM. When I walked up to it and set down at 4:00 AM, here is what HWiNFO64 showed. Show me a golden sample of any BGA CPU that can boot and run this speed, even at an idle, much less run benchmarks. And, if there even is such a thing, better start looking for a place that can transplant that golden chip when your motherboard dies, because that would be a once in the lifetime extremely unusual example.

BGA filth must die. Boycott it. Let is rot on warehouse shelves and end up getting sold as electronics salvage and cost the notebook OEMs and Intel multiple millions of dollars in financial losses for selling undesirable garbage.

 

We all make mistakes. I make several every day. The important thing is to learn from them and not repeat them. You've got that covered, so enjoy what you have until you can afford to correct the mistake. Go with the P870 though, not the P775. Unified heat sink is another huge engineering mistake that should be avoided. P775 is really nice looking, but it has a horrible cooling system.

Thank you. Being able to apologize and mean it is an admirable trait and we need more people that are able to do that.

 

I believe the mobo manufacturers are going to be shouting into Intel's ears. We all know CL should technically work in the 100/200 series mobos but Intel and their mobo partners are going to come up with some excuses. Remember, Intel makes money off the chips they sell AND the technologies they license to their partners.

 

I agree with @Mr. Fox, stay away from the P775. I purchased one and I learned the hard way.

 

I look at it this way, the compatibility with the Z170 lost those that upgrade every year, which are very few in the grand scheme. Then you have the coffee and cannon being the same, but on different nodes. This is why I see no backwards compatibility and maybe compatibility for the chip they push to cannibalize its next offering.

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The best and most intelligent reasons to avoid BGA trash is the fact that the chips are inferior grade and the machines that use them are disposable garbage.

We can and should expect to see more and more interference with upgrades as greed is a huge motivating factor behind that. Companies like Intel and NVIDIA only care about how much money they can make. They do not give a damn about end users or their ability to stretch their dollars through upgrades or fix what they own when something breaks. Being able to service what you own chips away at their profits and that is all they care about. If AMD starts being profitable, and stays profitable, I am certain they will follow suit. I would be surprised if they made upgrades or backward compatibility with older chipsets a consideration in their product road maps going forward.

It would be nice to at least be able to use an older CPU in a newer motherboard/chipset (like we could use a Sandy CPU with an Ivy mobo) in case you want to upgrade in stages as cash flow allows. But, what we want isn't on their radar. It's all about them. The days of the customer being right or their wishes being important are over. Doing the right thing is not important to them.

 

And, after 3.5 hours of doing "normal" stuff like web browsing, email, etc. the temps are still fine at 5.2GHz.

 

For 5.2 GHz and the limited cooling options of a notebook environment, that's incredible.

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