*** MSI 16L13 (Eurocom Tornado F5)/EVOC 16L-G-1080 15.6" Owner's Lounge ***

It is the thin foam rubber sheet that Eurocom used for packing the 120Hz display. It's very soft, about 5mm thick and compresses down to almost 0mm with no effort. I've applied it to my P870DM3 CPU and GPU(s) as well as this little beast. Working great on both machines. In case you hadn't seen the video, I'll plop it here for you.

With you shipping systems to your customers, this would be a great way to ship them with liquid metal applied without having to worry about it getting loose due to rough handling by shippers.

 

Yes I cannot stress this enough. ALWAYS disconnect the battery cable when doing any work inside a laptop where you are touching or disassembling components. Even something simple like removing a wifi card--still disconnect the battery. If that screw falls and hits a mosfet or a choke or something, and the battery is disconnected, you'll be feeling so much safer knowing a short won't happen. I failed to disconnect the battery last time when I swapped between two 8265 cards (because reasons) and switched antenna positions and the screw fell off and dropped by the hole, and it was very stressful having that happen, when all I had to do was disconnect the battery. Nothing happened and everything went smoothly, but still. I was uncomfortable when the screw fell or even unscrewing, so how could I be so stupid, after remembering my old MSI whitebook getting shorted to death?? My previous GT683 whitebook was destroyed by sparks by metal touching a fet, with everything (incuding AC adapter !) still being connected because of my own stupidity at the time, just by trying to remove a HDD for troubleshooting, and a necklace amulet around my neck touching the insides with the AC ADAPTER CONNECTED....yeah...that's what led to me having to buy the GT73VR. Yet i always unplug and shut off the AC rocker switch on my desktop every time...

Just disconnect the battery. Removing AC is not good enough. Pull by the tabs and apply only small tension to the cables, with most tension on the plastic. And just do it--it's better to have a broken battery cable because of a pulling mistake, than to have a broken shorted laptop...

 

I'll let my results stand on their own, LOL. Safety is important... I agree with you 100%. I've been working on computers since around 1982 and haven't messed anything up so far. I guess that means I must not be too big of a screw-up. Used to have a small business custom building desktops before I started traveling for a living. Might get back into that again since I'm not on the road much any more.

I've got the how much liquid metal to use part figured out pretty well. @[Nikos] @Papusan @TBoneSan and I were some of the first guys to start using it and encouraging others to do the same maybe 3 or 4 years ago in the days when Alienware still made good products. (I don't remember how long now, but it was a while before it became popular here at NBR.) If I remember correctly @[Nikos] was the first to give credit where it is due. I do remember all of the drama around it with people freaking out and telling us how dangerous we were living, LOL. There is some truth to it. Very dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. There have been many people that did not know what they were doing that have fried CPUs, GPUs and motherboards. I know Eurocom has had a few come back to them recently that were all messed up, so caution is definitely advised for the inexperienced.

I press the EC reset switch and that disconnects the system battery power from the motherboard on the 16L13. Once you've done that there is no power to anything other than the CMOS battery. In fact, you cannot even turn it back on again without reconnecting the AC adapter once the EC reset switch has been pressed. Try it out sometime. It's a nice feature. For the absent-minded and those that don't do things automatically due to repetition, unplugging the battery is definitely the right thing to do in case you forget to press the EC reset switch.

On a newer Clevo, once the AC adapter has been disconnected for 30 seconds after the machine has been turned off, the main battery disconnects as well. You have to press the power button once to reconnect it so that the USB power sharing feature works. You have to hold it down or press it a second time to turn the machine on. That's why on a Clevo you unplug the AC adapter for 30 seconds after flashing the BIOS. That does the same thing as pressing the EC reset switch on the 16L13. It's also a nice feature to keep the battery from being trickled dry and going dead if the machine is not used for a while. You have to be certain that the machine is not hibernating or in sleep mode, but I have those worthless features disabled in the BIOS and in the Windows registry. My machines cannot sleep or hibernate, even on purpose.

So, for those reasons mentioning safety is a good idea. Not everyone knows as much as we do. Thanks.

Yes, removing the c-clips often helps. I made a video showing what was going on inside of my P870DM3 (see below). I think @Prema was the person that discovered that to be an issue. The sloppy manufacturing tolerances in laptops is probably a primary contributor to that problem. It does not affect all of them. It is hit or miss, not unlike the silicon lottery. With laptops (especially Clevo) we have the heat sink lottery, too. What happens is the heat sink hits on the c-clips before the heat sink has been pressed against the CPU by the springs. In some cases (including my P870DM3) there was actually an air gap between the IHS and heat sink because of this. Removing the c-clips allows the heat sink to reach the CPU IHS instead of being stopped short of making contact with the c-clips in place. There seems to be a lot of variance from one machine to the next. It's really pretty sad. Removing the c-clips also improved contact on my 16L13, so that is not a Clevo-exclusive "feature" LOL.

 

Yeah, that's some scary stuff. If in doubt, can't go wrong pulling the battery. Probably a best practice to model for those that don't know the slick tricks. Disconnecting the AC power is ALWAYS critical. Working on a desktop or a laptop with AC power connected is dangerous to the hardware and the person working on it. Having a loose screw rolling around in the chassis can also be deadly to your computer. If you ever drop a screw in the chassis, stop and find it, even if you have to completely dismantle it to figure out where it went.

 

Oh right, look at that,. perfect ! Awesome thanks for sharing, and good idea.

 

Yeah I've said for years that going LM is nuts. I never recommend it, though with kabylake and skylake CPU's Intel has gotten so bad with the paste under the IHS... and on HEDT they started soldering the IHS's it's ridiculous.
I recently opened up a laptop from Eurocom, and they decided to do the LM and delidding themselves. Had to do a quick cleanup, no precautions, LM coming out from UNDER the IHS because the glue they used on the IHS to the CPU didn't actually even make contact with the silicon cpu substrate. disaster avoided, used less LM, cleanups a pain in the bum mind you. So even people who do it everyday make mistakes, so I always caution to not use LM unless needed.

The power stuff, didn't know that but now it does explain a ton of things. Thank you for that. Figure I'd have known that by now, mind you I knew how to get them on again and what to do when flashing, just not why and how it actually worked.

Yeah the C-clips when I saw you'd removed them, got me interested to know if it would help balance and make contact if we were to perhaps remove the IHS completely - but I wouldn't dare show it in this thread if I did it, because I'm relatively certain others will try it and chip thier CPU. All fun when you guys post this stuff, except the sellers are the ones getting all the RMA's when stuff breaks by accident, hahaha !

 

Don't screw up all the work we have done last few years Wrong advice Woodz

 

I'm such a LM fanboy I'd spread it on toast and eat it if it wouldn't put me in hospital.
@woodzstack Bro you should know by now that for the people who have used it safely and correctly there's no going back in a million years. Not unless something better comes along.
Compared to what @Mr. Fox, @bloodhawk & co. have been doing in recent times with their soldering irons, spreading metal is probably the safest part of their day. I must say, I'm continually impressed by just how determined they are in pushing the boundaries. It would make everyone in your RMA section's sphincter twitch

 

Here is where it all started.
Repasting with CooLaboratory Liquid Ultra, any tips before I start?

 

One word Fox... Hotwell!! And we haven't seen changes since.

 

Is @Eurocom Support still around?

 

The person who had the responsibility for social media engagement is no longer there. It does not appear they have replaced him yet. Good help is hard to find, and he (Braden) was really good at his job. He also used to do a lot of their YouTube videos and you can see about 4 months ago (about the time he left) the production slowed down on the videos https://www.youtube.com/user/EurocomTechnology/videos. Hopefully, they will be able find a good replacement for him or maybe he will be back after his extended travel excursion has come to an end.

 

Same. I used to sys/net admin for a small ISP, built all our boxes, customer boxes, my personal boxes. One time unknowingly a screw dropped between the mounted mobo and chassis and got caught on a component solder point before it hit the bottom. Took me about 15-20 minutes of rechecking all the connection seating trying to figure out why it wouldn't POST until I saw it wedged in there. Lucky that was the extent of it if I recall, POSTed after I removed it. Always checked for spare screws after that.

 

LOL. It's like a thread you just have to pull at it and the whole skirt comes undone.

 

Well, there are some amazing thermal pastes these days considering the ease of use and such, LM might just not be practical in everyday situation.

 

Hrmmf And not forget the Phobya tests

 

The problem is that we have hand's on experience with modifying laptops and have acquired skillz over the years, insights into what matters and what works to get a desired result, and we forget that there were a lot of mistakes along the way to gain that expertise.

A new novice is basically doing this all for the first time in the dark trying to listen to instructions that they have little practical experience to use as a reference, and they go ahead and roll the dice hoping for a big payday.

LM is great in the right hands, and a disastrous outcome waiting to happen in less experienced hands.

Recommending this stuff to novices isn't a good idea.

A non-conductive paste is good enough, forget getting those last few C - it's not worth bricking your laptop over it. You aren't going to see those last couple of degree's reduction result in anything useful for performance in day to day use.

It's a fools pursuit, a trap for unsuspecting novices, don't fall victim to it.

 

eurocom hands


and aaronne's magic!



TL dR!

LM Ultra applied after 24h that I had this laptop, very unimpressive job pasting from factory, -26° is my love power !

 

See!! Always proper info, bro Hmscott. Always!!

Compare with equal load and voltage + clocks.
59,7w vs. a lot higher 77w ain't comparable!! Higher Cpu Package Power = Higher Cpu temp!! Not magic.

 

Yeah, again, success is possible, it's not assured, and the less experience you have the more likely it's going to end in disaster.

I get why you keep insisting on it as being the "best", but it's not the best if it kills your laptop.

The benefits don't outweigh the risks, nowhere close.

For every @aaronne success there are those that will hear about the wonders of LM, rush in and do it "their way", as everyone is "smart" and knows what they are doing, until they figure out it's not what they thought it was, and they brick their laptop.

You see the people posting that killed their laptops, the vendors that report dozens of failed LM attempts they see LM pouring out, with plenty of "proper info" out there they should have found and followed, but they don't.

Again, using conductive paste is a risk that far outweigh's any benefit for the ones that get it, and there are plenty of people that report amazing results, and then weeks later report their laptop failed, or they simply go away too embarrassed to report it.

There are a lot more people that should be using non-conductive pastes instead of risking conductive pastes, use your expertise to help them too - and recommend non-conductive pastes first, not after they've killed their laptop with LM.

If you put as much effort into optimizing application and results for non-conductive pastes, and get that "proper info" out there, you'd impress me with those results.

 

What was your best temperature reduction with non-conductive paste, which ones did you use? Assuming you tried them first to see if you could avoid the risks of conductive liquid metal paste.

 

I still haven't had a chance to test it on anyones laptop, I;ve asked like 5 people.
HOWEVER - I have a F5 of my own coming back to me from Eurocom, when i get it - I will test it.
(basically customer of mine had damaged the chassis and motherboard, so I replaced it with a new laptop, and I will repair his and keep it for myself, so everyone wins, and I can finally test this damn paste which has been sitting 2 ft infront of me for months)

 

Edited my last post. See info regarding Cpu Package Power.

 

Stock compared against LM isn't valid, the best non-conductive paste against LM is of more interest. That will show the slimmer advantage best non-conductive against LM results.

Again if you brick your laptop with conductive paste getting there it's not worth the potentially advantageous result. It's very easy to "crap out" on this bet.

You don't need to keep showing me what I already know. @Papusan and @aaronne

Show me efforts in getting the best non-conductive paste to get you there instead, I haven't seen that yet

 

Yeah going to try a shoot 1,26v vs 1,32v, also GPU was repasted and from 81° max goes to 62°

edit:

I was using LM on cpu die from 2012, about 6 siringe used in total and never spilled anywhere.

I ordered a repasting + delidding and on the first image is what I got.

Just received this laptop yesterday with 3 years warranty and I would it long last


2nd edit:

here the 3dmark run at 75watt, cpu core3 maxed out at 86°(other at 75°) so its only 9° better than before,with stock thermal paste and an horrible delidedd cpu.

 

Why should I go with something secunda? I'm pretty sure I could still get very good temp with conventional thermal paste(after my mod). But why should I?

 

I thought I'd chime in the whole Liquid Metal vs Non-conductive Pastes. I tested non-conductive Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut vs conductive metal paste Coollaboratory Liquid Ultra on my GPU (desktop GTX 1070), and the temperature advantage of the metal paste was only 1 degC - this was at the same room temperature & the same 45min looped Firestrike Graphics Test 1 - these are actually the same temperature differences that Toms Hardware saw between liquid metal & Kryonaut too.

I did use liquid metal paste on my CPU delid too, but don't have Kryonaut vs Liquid Metal results for that one, but delid with liquid metal did reduce temperatures compared to stock Intel job by 13 degC if my memory serves me correctly. So, I personally don't think liquid metal pastes are worth using on anything other than CPU delids.

 

To save many people the anguish of bricking their laptops with liquid metal paste.

Advertise a safe non-conductive paste solution, shave off as much temp as possible, leave the lethal LM out of the show and tell, so that you don't push poor unsuspecting victim's into loosing their $2k-$5k investments.

How's that for a good reason?

 

My first reply in Post # 7519 should be enough. Take it from there No need for making it more difficult.

 

See, that's the kind of "proper info" people need to hear, you can accomplish the same benefits without risking the use of toxic electrically conductive liquid metal pastes.

I think the IHS can be done without liquid metal too, as just in this thread we have seen someone reporting it pouring out from under the IHS when the rough glue wasn't removed.

And on most GPU's LM isn't helpful either due to the large die and uneven heatplates making it useless and more dangerous at the same time.

The new larger CPU dies and IHS's are going to make using LM even more problematic, so it's best to start now finding alternatives.

No, that's not answering what I asked, I asked why not find a non-lethal solution and optimize that instead of exposing people to Galium Liquid Metal, a toxic substance, not only lethal to laptops that short out but also lethal to humans.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22024274

Finding a safe alternative and promoting that would impress me.

The pushing of LM as the only possible "best" solution isn't impressing me at all.

 

Yoo find more with Google. FYI. I have posted info regarding this before on the forum.

 

once there are some of these and I re used it for maybe 3-4 different mount:


Indigo Xtreme™ Metallic Thermal Interface Solution

 

You are still avoiding the question.

Why risk using electrically conductive liquid metal pastes when others are getting results within a degree or two using non-conductive pastes?

Exposure to Gallium is rare, and the exposure risks are not well known, as more people get exposed to it we will learn more:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22024274

" Abstract
The authors present a case of a college student who suffered acute gallium poisoning as a result of accidental exposure to gallium halide complexes. This is extremely rare and has never been reported in the literature. Acute symptoms after the incident, which initially presented as dermatitis and appeared relatively not life-threatening, rapidly progressed to dangerous episodes of tachycardia, tremors, dyspnea, vertigo, and unexpected black-outs. Had there been effective emergency medical care protocols, diagnostic testing, treatment and antidotes, the latent manifestations of irreversible cardiomyopathy may have been prevented.

Given how quickly exposure led to morbidity, this article aims to raise an awareness of the toxic potential of gallium. This has particular relevance for workers involved in the production of semiconductors where there is a potential for accidental exposure to gallium by-products during device processing. It may also have implications for dentists who use gallium alloys to replace mercury containing amalgam. In the absence of threshold limit values and exposure limits for humans, as well as emergency medical guidelines for treatment of poisoning, the case calls on the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration to establish guidelines and medical management protocols specific for gallium."

So, please don't be so flippant about Gallium, it's a dangerous liquid metal that shouldn't be handled by inexperienced people. Please stop telling people Gallium is non-toxic as that clearly isn't true.

Gallium poisoning: A rare case report (2012)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278691511005485

Gallium Safety (2008)
http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/33847-gallium-safety/

How safe is gallium? (2004)
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=238149

There isn't enough known, no standards established for safe handling and limits of exposure, it's killed someone so we know it's deadly in some exposures, but is there a long term accumulation effect, or lower dosage sensitivities in some people?

Too many questions of safety to handle this stuff bare as a novice. Stay away.

 

Maybe ask @Falkentyne who still trying learn how to swim A degree or two... Where have you been Bruh? Swimming tour? Backwards?

 

Read the quoted and just posted @Robbo99999 post, he only found 1 degree C difference, and I have seen many other such reports.

 

Hmmm, so how does that work? Is there a thin clear material that the metal spreads between when put on the CPU? How does it spread evenly and completely across the CPU and not collect outside the CPU patch into the reservoir it appears to come out of?

If it "leaks" is that conductive metal? I assume it is... and there is a lot of it.

This and the LM pad are two things I would recommend over free roaming Gallium liquid metal, but I really think a non-conductive paste is just as usable.

This sealed piece should be better for even non-condutive pastes, as it would keep the paste from drying out.

Maybe suggest to them to try that, replace the metal liquid with the best suitable non-conductive paste to see how that works - so even in the case of a failed membrane and the paste leaks out it wouldn't short out anything.

Thanks for finding and posting that

Are you involved with them in any way, or just a customer?

 

@aaronne - I gave you +5 rep simply because you're using the best OS the Redmond Mafia has ever released (Windows 7). You're obviously a cut above the norm.

@hmscott - what you are saying is mostly appropriate, but you also have to remember that we're all noobs in the beginning. You've got to take some risks to achieve great things. There is a huge difference between being an accident prone, reckless and haphazard noob-in-china-cabinet versus someone without prior experience that is careful, methodical and does their homework. The former will always screw something up. If not with liquid metal, they'll find some other way to destroy things. The latter are enthusiasts in the making... learning to walk so they can shift their attention toward running.

Not doing anything due to being incapacitated by fear is how an entire genre or generation ends up being composed of mostly idiots and losers. They lower the bar and embrace mediocrity and filth just because its safer to maintain status quo.

The only time the temperature differences are small (in my experience) is when the cooling system is already inadequate and gets saturated with heat faster than it can get rid of it. Not even liquid metal is going to cure engineering mistakes. In most cases the temperature improvements range from respectable ~5°C to extraordinary ~25°C. Mine are usually in the 15°-20°C range. It is impossible to dismiss that or call it a minor improvement.

All of us were inexperienced noobs when this was posted. Repasting with CooLaboratory Liquid Ultra, any tips before I start? None of us fried our laptops. The reasons it was and continues to be awesome is that none of us are careless.

 

FTFY.

 

Then let them learn to walk with non-toxic non-lethal non-conductive pastes first, why push their luck with dangerous alternatives only appreciated by the step-wise growth from noob to expert?

Deep end first isn't the way to have the most survivors

Besides, it's also not safe for anyone, even experts, the toxicity is known to have fatal consequences, we just don't know how much it takes over how long a period of time:

 

That part is up to them. Not for me to decide. All I can do it continue to provide the right model for them to aspire to.

I'm not using liquid metal for skin lotion or eye drops. I'm not inhaling it, or even touching it. I use brushes and cotton swabs. In the extremely rare example I have come into direct skin contact with it, the amount was minuscule and opportunity for absorption likely nil. Probably not nearly as hazardous as the radioactive crap that was injected into my veins last week for nuclear stress tests or the garbage in the water we all drink, or the air we breathe on a daily basis. But, I agree that there isn't much data on it and we should not be careless or haphazard handling it. Same applies for lead, mercury, cadmium and many other metals, minerals and chemicals. Low-density lipoproteins (bad cholesterol) and second-hand smoke are also undesirable.

 

That's why a fully fleshed out alternative using non-conductive paste would be appropriate to have, and recommend that first to get started - and for the LM method include and point out the potential health risks of Liquid Metal with Gallium along with the glowing benefits, that would at least give them all the "proper info" that @Papusan impresses on them.

People get excited over the "extreme" benefits, ignoring all the downside risks to their laptop and health, having a non-conductive winner along side for comparison would give them the foreknowledge that they can attain close enough to the same goals without the risks, that would be awesome.

 

Well, sort of. There has to be a balance between throwing caution to the wind and being an alarmist that never takes any risks. The Kapton tape, foam barriers, electrical tape, nail varnish, etc. are all steps that are reflective of a person that understands there are risks and takes some extra steps to avoid or minimize them. So, I think in that respect we see examples of balance and modeling of best practices that the noobs can follow.

In fact, I generally avoided using liquid metal on my GPUs and always cautioned against it until only recently, because the risks were seen as unnecessary compared to the benefit. But... then, along came Pascal, with its retarded room temperature thermal throttling crap. Now every degree counts. That called for some creativity and now I am using the protections for the CPU too... where I never really felt any need for it. Not because I was wrong before as much as when you identify a good solution it's stupid not to use it on the basis of never having done so in the past. Being safe and minimizing risks is always good as long as it doesn't stifle progress and cause us to do nothing based on fear.

 

@Mr. Fox @Prema @hmscott @Papusan @Everyone else who cares

MXM GTX 1080ti accidentally confirmed?! Or am I late to the party?


From this article about the Eurocom risers:
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Euroc...-your-desktop-with-a-laptop-GPU.241042.0.html

 

If you not have seen it... A few thermal paste is put on Toxic list. Not the same as you should avoid it. And a lot of chemicals is around us. In paint, materials used in house, cars, in short everywhere. If people are concerned, read data sheets about products they want to use!! Everything around us can be listed as dangerous... Not now, but maybe in the future.

 

I asked @Eurocom Support about that last week, before it was posted on their web page for public viewing. They told me it was only going to be a Q-Max gimmick. (Not the exact words they used of course, but if it's a Q-Max piece of crap it's a dead giveway that it's not going to be awesome.) I guess we will have to wait and see because it's only conceptual as far as I know. It sure would be nice if this was an MXM version of a almost-desktop 1080 Ti like the 200W Clevo 1080... as long as it doesn't sell for the price of two desktop 1080 Ti GPUs.

 

A slightly detuned 1080ti for laptops, with worthwhile better performance than a 1080 would be great, but I hope they don't burden it with Max-Q in the name.

This is about the only sense detuning a GPU makes, trying to get the top end GPU to reach into the laptop thermal / power limits realm that otherwise exclude it's use.

IDK if a detuned 1080ti is going to make enough performance difference over a full 1080 OC'd to make the extra cost worthwhile.

 

Sorry to derail a bit guys. I was hoping someone could share with me the vbios number that comes stock on the gtx 1070 for the ms16l3. I bought a 1070 but it is out of a vortex and i want to make sure i have the right bios on it for my tornado f5. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

I can't see how they could possible Max-Q poop all over a GTX 1080ti. There is simply no way to keep its cooling to their 40db standard.

It still has 1024 cores more than a GTX 1080. Perhaps that is enough to keep it ahead of MXM 1080? even with some down-tuning

 

Where I think this (the riser cards) would have the most beneficial application is for computer shops that need to repair or test MXM modules on a frequent basis. I really cannot see any other good use for it because MXM cards are so grossly overpriced and inferior to full-sized desktop GPUs. There would be no reason to build a desktop using a riser for an MXM card, unless the kits are really cheap and you have a laptop you plan to part out. I could see someone taking the 7700K and 200W 1080 GPU out of say a P775DM3 they don't want any more and putting those in a desktop if the riser card and cooler can be had for a small fraction of the price of a 1080 desktop GPU. I am also curious how effective the coolers might be. I'd hope they would produce a full MXM PCB water block so you would use liquid cooling instead of a heat sink and fan. That would be a lot more special.

I don't know, brother. They did not provide any details other than what I mentioned. I find it really puzzling too. We will just have to wait and see. Since it is only conceptual at this point, it may not even materialize. But, yeah... as soon as I saw that sample of information they showed me I immediately had questions, LOL.

 

I don't see an application for the risers either. My hope is that they are just enough small to sell to the rich people that want trash can/ultra small desktops (its been gaining momentum). I hope they can market them, and many people buy them. This would help ensure the survival of the standard.