*** MSI 16L13 (Eurocom Tornado F5)/EVOC 16L-G-1080 15.6" Owner's Lounge ***

the question is which CPU is which ?

Like why is one so much thinner then the other ?

 

Right side is skylake, left side is pre-skylake. Thinner substrate.

 

Thank God I didn't wait for Skylake
http://www.gamespot.com/forums/system-wars-314159282/thank-god-i-didnt-wait-for-skylake-32818371/

"Skylake processors are noticeably thinner than their Broadwell predecessors thanks to a notably thinner substrate."

That photo is from that post and this article, shown to compare the thinness of Skylake vs Broadwell / Haswell

Skylake: Coolers Can Damage Socket 1151 CPUs [Update: High Pressure Feedback]
http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Luftk...-Kuehler-zerstoeren-Sockel-1151-CPUs-1179237/

 

I saw some references on Pages 1-5 regarding the Soundblaster Cinema 3 software. Our Tornado F5 review unit didn't come with a drive disc, could any of you point me to the right place to get it if possible? Thanks.

Charles

 

Eurocom says not to bother with the Creative Cinema 3.

I will make you a copy of the OEM disk they send in a sec
@Charles P. Jefferies

 

Woow.

I second that, I would like to have a copy of that software.

 

Has anyone else had any issues with their thunderbolt port? I just got my Tornado 2 weeks ago and finally plugged in a thunderbolt drive, but it doesn't seem to be registering at all. I have installed the drivers and the drive pops up when using USB. Slightly disconcerting..

 

Well guess what guys. The clu actually arrived yesterday and no one even told me about it when I disassembled my laptop today. I used the mx4 when I could've used this instead lol. Well now after what's happened today I'll have to wait until the rocket delid kit comes anyways to even start this again.

Edit: uploaded a photo of the half empty tube but eh I won't use much

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MX4 is not very good. Even ICD7 stock from Eurocom would be better.

 

Yep just what I was thinking after looking at my temps but hey it's something that I had laying arounf


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@woodzstack Thank you.

Some of the benchmarks for our model. Spec is Core i7-7700K, GTX 1080, 32GB DDR4-2400 (2x 16GB), 2x 512GB Samsung 960 Pro RAID 0, Win 10 Pro 64-bit.
In case the images don't show:
3DM FireStrike: 16916; Graphics: 21213; Physics: 13359
3DM FireStrike Extreme: 9128; Graphics: 9868; Physics: 13378
VRMark Blue Room: 2128; 46.4 average fps
VRMark Orange Room: 9534; 207.85 fps



Haven't looked at the temps yet, will do that when I get some Rise of the Tomb Raider installed.

Charles

 

The delidding tool came today and I already delidded the 2nd 7700k. After the paint dries, I'll return the older one back to Amazon.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6wm94flea22j5ai/DISK.nrg?dl=0

let it finish uploading though, should be 10 mins or so max

you need patience man !

 

I am, the silicone bond needs 24 hours to fully cure. I'm not touching it until tomorrow evening.

That least the 2nd one is not bent. The actual delidding process took 2 min with the Rockit 88 tool.

 

What do you guys think about this listing from eBay? Even with shipping to me, it'll be about $10 cheaper than the rocket from Amazon

http://m.ebay.com/itm/Intel-Delid-t...%3Addbed9411590a5e0b5cd1281ffaf1dd8%7Ciid%3A2

Edit: never mind I already bought it I can't justify spending 10 extra dollars for something that I can get cheaper on eBay that does something so simple. I think the only reason it costs so much is because it has like no competition

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The issue that is the one from ebay comes from Australia, the one on Amazon ships out of Houston, TX. If you live in the US, it will take 1-3 weeks of shipping time to the US. My took 2 days, from TX to Tulsa, OK, most places in the US will take 2-3 days.

 

That ebay item is someone's printout of an open source 3D Print:

https://www.youmagine.com/designs/skylake-delid-tool

If you have your own printer, it's "free" for the cost of materials, or you could print it locally for hopefully less than the ebay/shipping costs.

3D printed Skylake delid tool

Spoiler

3D printed Intel Haswell/Skylake Delid tool

 

Eh I'd rather save the money and wait for it, I've been spending a rather lot lately on this laptop


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Well good for him he made some money off of me, I don't have a 3D printer anyways and I save $10 win win for both of us


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No kidding! Reminds me of a 6700k I ordered on e-bay last year. Glad I was able to re-bend the pcb back, for a moment I thought the cpu was doa.

 

how the hell does everyone keep managing to damage their cpu substrate


cmon guys the delid tool isn't THAT expensive...

 

It looks like the 3d tool designer has come up with a Kabylake version:

Intel Kaby Lake delid tool
https://www.youmagine.com/designs/intel-kaby-lake-delid-tool

I got the link from his Skylake Delid page:
https://www.youmagine.com/designs/skylake-delid-tool

Interestingly he says on the Kabylake tool page:

"A simple delid tool that for chopping Intel Kabylake and Skylake CPU"

"I dont have a Kaby Lake CPU therefore it would be great if someone can print, test it and give feedback if it will fit

This tool should also work with Skylake CPUs as Kaby only has two additional noses."

That may mean the Skylake cut tool may not work for Kabylake... @birdyhands
https://www.hardwareluxx.de/communi...pu-zum-vermessen-fuer-delid-tool-1148246.html

 

Here are my temps after a 30 minute run through Rise of the Tomb Raider . The Core i7-7700K reached 100 * C, and I got 91 *C on the GeForce GTX 1080. (The attachment might not show for a bit.)
My GPU-Z log shows the GTX 1080 maintaining a ~1,700MHz boost clock even when it hits 90 *C, though, so that's something. But overall, these are definitely not "good" temps.

I can't help but feel the Core i7-7700K might be a little over what the cooling can handle in this notebook.
I wonder if the CPU would run any cooler if I had the GTX 1060 or GTX 1070. Have any of you done analysis on that?

For reviews, we use the notebooks as the majority of buyers will use them, so no undervolting or other modification, as most users will never think to do that. Now, I didn't notice any problems playing games with these temps; no stutters, nothing. What I'll probably say in the review is that, although the Tornado F5 runs hot as we have it configured, we didn't notice any ill effects from the temps as far as gaming performance goes.

 

I most likely won't be buying a kaby lake CPU unless I really need it. I plan to us this baby for a long time and maybe if I do get kb in a long time, I'll just buy another delidding tool


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To achieve good temps you might consider delidding the CPU, repasting with liquid metal all components, and then undervolting as well unless maybe you're going to overclock in which case the delid and repaste with lm should be more than enough to achieve great temps


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The reviewer should not have to do that since most people would never do it. I understand what Charles is saying, this laptop is not design for these heat loads.

I have the 1070, I think with the 1070 the cpu temps would be a little lower but not by much. I think no lower than 5C's. The heat sink is shared with the cpu and gpu.

 

That's true but I'm sure there's a market for people like me which eurocom is trying to reach. The ones who like to tear down their notebook and put it back together again. they can maybe put that good temps are available through some minor modifications


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I am the same way, I just delidded 2 7700k in 1 week for the sake of lower temps. The current one in the laptop runs at 4.4 with .130v undervolt. I will test the other one tomorrow evening.

 

One of the major complaints about reviewers reviewing LGA laptops is that they don't get it, the LGA laptops need tuning after delivery - and the buyer of these laptops know it. They are looking for reviewers to realize this too and provide a review reflective of the market.

Most if not all LGA laptops benefit from Delidding and CLU on the IHS - some shops are offering that service - and pre-selected high OC CPU's from Silicon Lottery delidded as well. All covered by Warranty.

The Intel LGA Kabylake CPU IHS paste is universally bad this time, a delid and LM on the IHS brings 20c reduction in temps.

Given your results -20c, those would be "good temps"

Maybe consider being the "first" to do just what the readers want, review both before and after delidding the CPU.

 

@Charles P. Jefferies why do I suspect you ran that test with the fans running at default which is far from adequate for the build you have.

 

So true the default fan profiles are meant for the gt62vrs' hardware and specs and not ours which is much more powerful


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It's the exact fan profile that is used on the 6700HQ and GTX 1060 GT62VR. Why would we expect that it should properly ramp up and cool the 7700K and 1080?

 

@yotano21 has it right:

For review purposes, we use the products as they're sent to us. We'd only modify them if directed to do so by the company that sent us the product.

The fan profiles are default, correct. I see there's a fan button on the chassis, I'll try that for my next gaming session. But again, we generally expect to use the systems as-is.

I also appreciate the insight about the processor de-lidding, undervolting, and thermal repasting ideas from several of you who suggested them. It looks like Eurocom offers upgraded thermal paste, but does not have a processor de-lidding service that I can see, or undervolting service. So in essence, it would be tough to mention the latter two in the review without something from Eurocom to back it up.

Anyways, the component temperatures aren't going to be a focus of the review. As I said, I didn't notice any problems gaming with the temps the way they are, and the benchmarks seem to come out fine as well. In other words, the temps aren't affecting (by our standards) the advertised operation of the product, so they're acceptable.

(Personally, if I owned this notebook, I'd do the thermal modifications you all are doing, if for the sole reason that it's fun.)

Charles

 

One question sir. I mean Cinebench R15 must be included in your reviews. A highly reputable benchmark test and used by a lot of people. Ideally also the slightly older CB R11.5
Comment on this? Thanks
https://www.maxon.net/en/products/cinebench/

 

Even with the high temps on stock, I still love this laptop, 7700k cpu, 3.5tb of total storage (1st laptop with all SSD storage), 32gb of ram, and desktop level 1070.

 

Testing the notebook "as is" makes sense for a review targeting the general public. Keep in mind guys, the vast majority of users don't know how to perform a repaste, let alone perform a CPU delid... However, I would say this is built as an enthusiast machine, through and through, and is marketed towards the enthusiast crowd. Tweaking is expected, and (honestly) one of the most enjoyable parts of owning this notebook. Out of the box (OOTB) with a 7700K, this laptop will run OK, but leaves potential performance untapped.

I would suggest for the inexperienced user who just wants a totally hands-off OOTB experience, simply drop down the CPU to a i7-7700 "non-K" and call it a day. You still get the benefit of a socketed CPU, maintain that true portable, desktop-class spec, and all the while besting the performance of virtually all other BGA notebooks on the market.

 

This is why we ONLY offer Intel i7 "K" CPUs that are Delidded - Unlocked, Under Volted and Overclocked in our MSI 16L based EVOC 16L-G-1080. We also carefully build the thermal solution including proper sized and placed thermal pads.
.

 

hahaha yeah that's a stock setup though, right ? I'm a big advocate of how great of a buy this laptop it, however, it really needs some things done to shine perfectly. (Somehow that is what makes it more worth it in my eyes, the things that are left to tackle and are challenging make the effort worth it!)

Love The rise of the Tombraider BTW.

Becuz it's fun ! Exactly ! LOL Fans are on default which is "SILENT- MODE" operation. They ramp up, but keep that in mind. Many people have become very upset with this laptop at default, but have not realised fans on default are considered whisper silent. Theres an AUTO setting once the software is installed, which is more attuned to gaming and using it, abit more aggressive. Hitting the full speed fans button makes the fans go 150%
This laptop is loud, I figure they called it the Tornado because the fans have to go full blast to "get it".

 

That's kind of odd. I don't know why they would need a new KBL de-lid too. The Skylake tool works same for Kaby Lake. No issue at all. Look at the video in my EUROCOM Tornado F5 review, post #2. The only CPUs I have used it on are 7700K. I did my 4790K and two 6700K de-lidding with a razor blade.

Speaking of the review thread... just updated post #3 with some 4.8-5.0GHz overclocks and severe GPU overclocking results.

 

My Tornado F5 from Eurocom came with a Samsung 4K panel. If you don't care too much about color accuracy and gamut, it does a good job at being sharp and has nice viewing angles.

And I'm surprised people use scaling with 1080p screens. I've been running on a 15.6" 1080p screen for years, and I never had to use scaling. Also, I found that the 4K screen support isn't bad using Linux Mint Cinnamon.

 

Thermal paste and thermal pads should be replaced every time that the heat sink is removed (for cleaning, upgrade or other maintenance).

When they are not replaced, they do not fit perfectly. If you pay for pasting from a company, and they are "curious" and open it up and take a look, and then just place it back down, your ruining the setup, and it needs to be replaced.

If your careful, it might not even make much of a difference, sure, but as a practice, it's not good to do this.

 

Thank you for the detailed responses, and your personal vote for doing these improvements to your own notebook

The services for Delid and SiliconLottery are from HID @Donald@HIDevolution can fill you in if the tuning includes undervolting.

A brief note about undervolting - the standard BIOS setting for CPU voltage - probably set mostly the same across vendors is likely the default setting recommended Intel - same for desktops.

The Skylake (/ Kabylake) default CPU voltage is so high that the stable range of undervolting reported from owners is as high as -250mV with -150mV typical.

This undervolting reduces wasted heat, and drops the CPU temperatures 10c-15c under load, less at idle, which is just the amount needed to drop out of throttling, so it is a great tuning an owner can do to avoid re-pasting - or sometimes even delidding.

It would be nice if the vendors would provide an automatic tuning for this in their BIOS to custom tune each CPU to the laptop, but we aren't there yet, so the owner needs to do it.

And, I agree there should be a baseline review on the out of the box settings - to set a baseline to compare the easy improvements an owner would be interested in seeing done by a reviewer.

The undervolting would be easiest - not requiring any hardware hacking, and it would get the word out about undervolting to those that haven't heard about it yet, a great service to owners that are suffering needlessly with CPU thermal throttling that could be ended by undervolting.

The Delidding testing after undervolting would of course only be needed by LGA laptops, and a savvy review could request the vendor to ship with delidding if normally offered as a line item on their custom build menu.

Adding delidding to the review even if the vendor didn't offer it - if the vendor would allow it for the reviewer to do - would show a savvy of both the reviewer and the vendor as recognition of how most / many of their customers might want to see the laptop reviewed. More shops should start offering delidding services now that Kabylake CPU's have been found to have even worse thermals from Intel's IHS, maybe mention it to the shop or in the review that the service is available from some shops and how much it helps?

Lastly, if there is a standard 100% fan button provided by the maker, you know owners will take advantage of that for benchmarking at the least, and likely also use it for demanding games that fully load the CPU and GPU. I'd put that as an included feature that should be tested with and without use on benchmarks and games and provide both temperature results in the review. We all use this to get the last little bit of performance by keeping the CPU / GPU as cool as possible.

Thanks again for listening to us

 

You have the 4K screen ? Is this what I have with me, aside from the Sharp Display which is not compatible ?

 

That's great to hear, the mention of 2 tabs only on the Kabylake that are accommodated in the modded delid tool. Maybe the original tool has enough "slop" to allow both to work.

Next time someone has the 2 "K" CPU's side by side, Skylake and Kabylake it would be fun to compare.

 

I tune and test and delid and all that as a friendly service too. Ask anyone who's purchased or sent me thier laptop and is on discord, or sometimes I send screenises to the inbox here.
The issue is, not being able to save the tuning because no one purchases with a harddrive, not matter what. The bios keeps the settings from XTU that I use, so long as they don't reset it, since you can't configure these settings in bios.

Oh I think I can do that, I have a dozen 7700K's but another 6700K is on it's way.

 

Wow, what a great opportunity to review the two methods of delivery - stock with 20c+ temps on a non-delidded 16L13 as already reviewed vs the HID model with delidded performance for comparison.

@Charles P. Jefferies - what do you think? That would solve the delidding test issue, have the vendor provide one with delidding and professional re-pasting out of the box.

It would be interesting to print both Skylake and Kabylake tools and see what the difference is between the printed versions as well.

 

Yeah, I do! I told you already, but I think you've got a lot on your plate already. If you power up the computer, you'll see how it looks! You can boot on my m.2 drive if you want to see the login screen, I left it in the laptop. It's why I thought I'd have a 40 pin eDP connector.

 

That's awesome!

I have read a number of your posts about your service, but I didn't see that detail mentioned - but I guess I did assume it based on your other informative tuning posts.

It would be good to mention that you also provide the tunings / results to the owner so they can replicate it should they reset things, which we know they often/always do

 

If people want a common server link with me or some of us, they may use this NBR Discord server we started awhile ago initially for Alienware.

https://discord.gg/PyRg9zD

when you have a common server, you can chat with someone without having to add them to your buddies list or find them etc.. so it's an easy middle ground.

it's confusing because I count 40 pins... but they list this as 30pin eDP...

 

It is this panel:
http://www.panelook.com/LTN156FL02-L01_Samsung_15.6_LCM_overview_23360.html

And no, it isn't even close to 100% sRGB. I wish. It's more like between 60 and 70% sRGB, and about 50% aRGB.

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Asus-G501JW-Notebook-Review.141745.0.html

The Samsung panel is listed as having 40pin at Panelook.com, and I couldn't find a 30pin version, so I'm pretty sure the motherboard supports 40pin but uses different connectors. I've found differences in connectors between the Sharp and the Samsung panels, and I suspect that if I was to buy the Sharp connector, it might fit the motherboard, but I don't know for certain.

 

I think you need this guys service : https://szrende.en.alibaba.com/prod...E_HIROSE_KEL_30pin_40pin_50pin_EDP_cable.html

they are 0.4mm spaced molex standard for the SHARP but I-PEX 0.5mm spacing for the Samsung standard

 

Ah, now I understand better I think. That's the spacing between pins. I thought this was the angle of the pins when looking at the specs (they wrote "pitch").