*** MSI 16L13 (Eurocom Tornado F5)/EVOC 16L-G-1080 15.6" Owner's Lounge ***

1 : Yes, in the F5 the CPU's are crazy fast and powerful, more then you would get out of the box normally.
2: 32GB; 2x 16GB; DDR4; PC4-2400; CL14; 260-pin SODIMM; Kingston Impact HyperX; 1.2V; 2 SODIMMs [add £378] this is not my pricing BTW.
3: The I/O is rated faster but it's also I think 2 bit vs 3 bit correction at a time and won't last as long. But - in my experience, it will out last the laptop.

 

Before you drop a huge wad of cash on NVMe, take a moment to stop and think about what matters most to you.

While they are nice for SSD benchmarks, NVMe 4K read/write speeds are really nothing to write home about... more or less the same speed as SATA SSD. NVMe runs hotter, frequently has a longer boot time, introduces limitations with OS compatibility and pricing is totally ludicrous. You can get double or triple the M.2 SATA SSD storage capacity for the same price as the NVMe flavor. If you want it for benchmarks, get one and enjoy it. The benchmark speeds are amazing and fun. But, that might not be the best use of your money if that's not something you are passionate about.

 

Wow, only 1.15V for 4.7Ghz on your 7700K! I have to use 1.3V to have my 6700K stable at 4.6Ghz! Is that representative of a typical 7700K or have you got a binned or good sample?

 

Both of my 7700K are off-shelf retail units, not specially binned samples. Even with such crazy low voltage, cooling 7700K is a huge pain in the butt. Don't know why, but the reality of it is undeniable.

Both of them handle 5.0GHz easily with stock Adaptive voltage +25 offset, or static/override voltage at 1.250V +25 offset.

 

@Robbo99999 - For example... with "auto" fan control... temps are basically the same with BIOS defaults (no OC) as 4.7GHz. That being the case, no reason for anyone to settle for stock clock speeds if the temps are the same, LOL.

 

Wow, yes, some low voltages going on there - that's good! Are they harder to cool than 6700K's when at the same clocks?

(Yes, temps the same as stock due to you lowering the voltage when overclocking it I guess - yes, why not do that!).

 

Yes... a whole lot harder. And, I don't know why. I love 7700K, but that part is real stupid. Doesn't make any sense. Before delidding, both 7700K were borderline unusable they ran so hot (as noted in the review by @Charles P. Jefferies on the Tornado F5). Same thermal challenges with 7700K on both the Tornado F5 and P870DM3. All three of my 6700K CPUs ran very cool after delidding. 7700K thermals remind me a lot of Haswell 4790K and 4930MX thermal challenges.

 

That's so weird, aren't 7700K & 6700K on the same process, there's not a die shrink going on between them is there that I've forgotten about? If they're on the same process then that's double weird if they're consuming the same Watts yet 7700K is hotter!

 

Yes. 100% correct. That's why it makes absolutely no sense. But, it's fairly common experience. Almost every review you find on systems with 7700K, high CPU temperatures is a common complaint. I am almost to the point now that I don't care as long as there is no thermal throttling or performance decline. Maybe Intel did it on purpose so they don't last forever and they can sell more CPUs.

 

Strange, well I just can't fathom that (assuming that comparisons have been seen on the same laptop with the same cooling system - unless manufacturing tolerances & assembly standards have decreased of those same cooling systems in those same laptops since the introduction of the 7700K).

EDIT: although you're probably also referring to desktop reviews in which case the cooling system thoughts in brackets above doesn't apply.

 

Nope, nothing changed on the laptops except the CPU. My P870DM3 shipped from HIDevolution with a Silicon Lottery delidded 6700K that ran very cool. I upgraded it to 7700K. The 6700K in the Sky X9 review unit ran very cool, and the 6700K in my P870DM-G sold to @Rage Set also ran very cool.

Edit: yes, primarily desktop reviews (the most common) and complaints about 7700K temperatures being higher that 6700K is quite common. I haven't paid close attention to the BGA Kaby Lake reviews since I don't care about those systems, but I think I remember others talking about the same issue on those processors. Something about Kaby Lake is not temperature-friendly.

 

Yep, strange!

 

The bet was for one penny.

@Mr. Fox

Will it at least run 1100V like this? I say this because of the LLC which jacks the voltage up.

 

Give me few minutes and I will find out. You set Override (static) 1100 with no offset in the BIOS with 47x4? I will try it on both machines and see what happens.

 

Correct. Or you can use throttle stop in windows and do the same thing. Do not worry about what it says after the test, but only what it says during the test. (Voltage wise)

Side note:
My temp was only low because I had just turned it on and then ran that test. Fans are on auto as well.

 

Mine will not do this. If I set 1100 in override mode, when I get into windows the voltage is much much higher like it's not taking it in the BIOS. BTW my BIOS is NOT unlocked like yours.

 

Brother @Johnksss@iBUYPOWER - No, not on the Tornado F5... it will not. I tried 1100, 1120, 1130, 1135 and 1140. Below 1130 Windows freezes at logon. 1130 through 1140 Cinebench freezes then I get a BSOD with Watchdog Timer. It worked with 1145 instead of the 1150 I have been using, but if I remember right adding 0005 made it pass all of the time.

I will try it on my P870DM3 here is a few and post the results. It looks like the Tornado F5 voltage controller handles things differently. Compare the lowest (load) and highest (idle) voltages to your results. It looks like the DM3 adds more extra load voltage and the Tornado F5 load voltage is closer to exactly what the BIOS is set to. Below is with 1145 in BIOS, no offset, 47x4.

CPU Temps being higher on the Tornado F5 may have some influence on this as well. Higher temps meaning more voltage required. Will try this on my DM3 now... back in a few.

Edit: Wow... Our Cinebench scores are almost identical. Just noticed that.

 

Ok, next test.
Leave it at 1150 in bios and then boot windows. Use TS to change it to 1100/static. Then try again. Also lower cache to 4.20 ghz and voltage to like 1.03.

 

1. Best thermal pad/ copper shims?
2. Do I need to delid the CPU if it already comes with collaboratory liquid ultra?
3. 1TB SM961 vs 1TB 960 pro? I probably use my SSD as much as my CPU on database searches so I need the fastest one possible.

Thank you!

 

Nope, Cinebench threw a Kernel Mode Exception 0x1e BSOD set like that.

 

Tried again, set cache voltage same as core (1100) instead of 1.03 and Cinebench threw Unexpected Kernel Mode Trap 0x7f BSOD.

 

It's because you have everything set to performance in the bios.

I only changed watts to 160W/160W and cpu to [email protected] and cache to [email protected]. Everything else is still stock. And I set memory to 3k

1E=to low Vcore
Not sure about 7F

 

So, you leave BIOS defaults for everything and set everything with ThrottleStop, or you set the multis, watts and core voltage in BIOS and then reduce core and cache voltage with ThrottleStop?

Edit: Even if it does not work the same on TF5, I will repeat same tests on my DM3 and see if it is the same as your DM3. My current ThrottleStop profiles that work well on the DM3 do not work well on the TF5. Neither do my BIOS settings. They are a little different, but we should expect some variance between CPUs as well.

 

Just incase anyone was wondering if the brightness controls/g-sync would work if installed in Legacy mode, the answer is NO. I did a clean install last night for various reasons and went ahead and gave Legacy mode a shot and it was a no go. In fact I also reinstalled my old 60Hz g-sync screen and in legacy mode g-sync would not activate no matter what I tried. I went ahead and clean installed again with UEFI and g-sync immediately worked after a driver install.

Went ahead and put my 120Hz screen back in and after seeing both screens again, I can safely say that after I apply my screen ICM profile this 120hz screen is just superior is almost every single way.

 

Should have asked me and I could have saved you the hassle. I already went through the wasted effort. But, I agree. The 120Hz screen is definitely better even without brightness control. Honestly, I always run my screens at 100% brightness and go for years without adjusting brightness control. I don't like that it does not work, but it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things since that's how I run all of my systems. And, as far as G-Stink goes, I don't give a rat's ass if that ever gets fixed. I have no use for it. But, I would like brightness controls to be fixed just so knowing it does not would not bug me any more.

Side note: 3DMark believes I have G-Stink even though it does not show in NVCP. I have to disable G-Stink using NVIDIA Inspector to make the warning from 3DMark go away (the one that tells me G-Sync is going to lower my benchmark scores).

@Johnksss@iBUYPOWER - is brightness control still broken on your DM3 120Hz screen as well?

 

Yes. I set a few things in the bios then jump into windows. This way if I have crashes, they do not reset. You set crazy settings in the bios and all hell breaks loose after a crash or two.(I'n my case at least)

And Real XTU as my backup for when TS fails to make changes after say a crashed benchmark or two.

Core/Cache voltage are locked and the only way to separate them is to use throttle stop.

I start with setting the core voltage and watts in the bios. PL1 and PL2 since that's all you need. The voltage is set because I don't want windows running all wild with auto. It will ramp up to like 1.4V under load. Which is just wasting watts and energy for no good reason.

I reduce only the cache voltage and up the multiplier depending on profile. All power saving features are still active.

Edit: Yes, it's still broken.

 

100% agree Mr.Fox. I always used 100% as well on laptops and was always my biggest gripe. That gripe is now gone and yes this screen is freaking bright.

I personally love G-Sync, I use it on my desktop and now am so damn used to it. 120Hz and G-sync would be amazing on this beast. I play a few games that don't always get 120hz and I want the ability for the screen to adjust its refresh rate to match that fps for butter smooth FPS. When G-Sync is working it works amazing.

I went back to UEFI because OMG boot times were atrocious under Legacy mode. I just disabled secure boot and called it good.

 

That's interesting. I did not really notice any difference in boot times with UEFI versus Legacy. I did not actually measure the time and doing so might reveal a change. As long as there is not a noticeable long delay in the booting process I never really pay too much attention to that. I know some people are really OCD about that and use sleep/hibernation because they notice like a 1 or 2 second difference. Anything less than maybe a 10 or 12 second difference in boot time between one versus the other isn't going to be something I pay attention to. Drivers can have a major effect on boot time. The wrong drivers (or a bugged version of the right driver) can be very detrimental to boot time.

 

I will try this on the DM3 as well later tonight or tomorrow.

Are you leaving System Agent to stock defaults? I bumped that up as well as VCC and VDD trying to get the 3000 RAM to behave better.

Using ThrottleStop with 1150 core and 1100 for cache worked OK. Will try lowering cache voltage a little more and see if core staying at 1150 allows me to drop cache voltage (might help temps). I'd say the scores are exactly what they should be, but improving the temps would be good.

 

No GPU OC... CPU using the above settings (4.7GHz)

 

Best performance should come from the 3200MHz (assuming they can get it to work).

Database searches should be 4K random read/write. In this case, if you want to do near-constant loads this way, your best bet is the 850 Pro 1TB SATA 3 drive. But if you MUST consider SM961 vs 960 Pro, the 960 Pro is the drive to get.

@Mr. Fox I'm running a screen calibration right now so I can't adjust screen brightness but I'll check and see if I can adjust brightness on my panel in windows later.

 

Does the bottom reset switch revived the bios in the event of bad memory timings? Getting black screen and really don't want to break it down to the cmos battery.

@Mr. Fox

Why did they have to put that battery in such a terrible location?

 

6700K = 7700K in performance, but 6700K runs cooler? Not sure that can be right... or else Intel seriously messed something up

 

I hear a lot of 4k this and that. Time to put that to a real world test.
I think it's more 64k than it is 4k

 

stock: http://www.3dmark.com/3dm/18009722


Vs 10 seconds of tweaking the CPU : http://www.3dmark.com/3dm/18010017


I post these because this is what I expect Typical users who games and use this laptop to expect in terms of performance. This does not reflect max anything, I'm not numbers chasing with these.
Temps were high in both cases either low 70C's or low 80C's with fans maxed out during the loads.

CPU at like 1.5v , so VERY high. Essentially you won;t get temps higher then these, because most people would have MUCH lower voltage.

 

Well the little beast has been revived. I got to take the damn thing apart and remove the motherboard to reset the CMOS battery. Yay. What a pain..

 

OMG, why did you have to ?
I remember discussing this with Mr.B Fox that the CMOS was completely on the underneath side hard to reach or get too... and we should have switch or something for easy access.

 

everything looks sooo mcuh smoother on a 120hz screen, it's way smoother then the 60hz with G-Sync. It's nuts.

 

Can anyone access this : http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/woodzstacks-nbr-feedback-thread.779929/

or is it invisible to everyone ?


edit : nevermind, was fixed thanks to Charles aka bobafett moderator. (TY!)

 

I got aggressive with ram timings and well no beuno. The laptop would not post to BIOS. That pin hole thing would not work, nothing worked. Had this before with a GE62 where ram timings would soft brick it. Had to remove the CMOS battery on that laptop too, but luckily the battery is on the bottom of the motherboard for easy access. This CMOS battery is in a terrible location and I got to educate myself on how to tear this beast apart. Wasn't that difficult but man tedious with plenty of ribbon cables to tear if you're not careful and slow.

 

You needed 1.5v to hit 4.8 GHz? That might be the worst overclocking 7700K I'd seen so far Although, I am surprised your temps are so low at 1.5v.

I can see it.

 

My attempt was to stress test the CPU and see if it could easily handle 5.2/5.3Ghz... this is my best guess as to where the voltage would need to be for stable OC in that range. However, the GIMPED stock bios won't let you go very far in terms of OC.
So, I fake it best I can... eventually I try a prime95 test with this voltage and so long as the PC doesn't crash it's good to go.

My CPU testing is not very sophisticated, I know, but it tells the story good enough for me to see what I need to see.

 

You should have no problem. My brightness controls are fine with 120Hz screen and G-Stink on the P870DM3. I believe there is a connection of some kind between G-Stink and brightness control getting broken. Brother @Johnksss@iBUYPOWER upgraded to 120Hz. He does not have G-Sync video cards. Brightness control is broken. On the Tornado F5 G-Stink works with the 60Hz screen. If the 120Hz screen is installed as as upgrade, brightness control is broken and it's not G-Stink approved yet. I don't think this is a coincidence. I believe there has to be a connection to the scenario where one component of the G-Stink gauntlet is broken. Brother @Prema probably knows exactly what needs to be corrected, but it may not be doable until the Green Goblin whitelists the panel in the Tornado F5.

Brother @Johnksss@iBUYPOWER - were you able to test either single or dual GPU configuration in your DM3 with some borrowed video card(s) that have G-Sync to see if brightness control works?

 

OK, finally got the wiring/connectors from China for finalizing the CMOS battery relocation on the Tornado F5. Now I can clear NVRAM like a normal enthusiast should be able to. Still cannot believe it requires motherboard removal to access the CMOS battery. Not the first time I have seen such stupidity, but I expected just a little bit more of a demonstration of common intelligence from MSI than this.

Oh well... it's fixed now. Life goes on.

 

From what i'm told....It has to do with Nvidia. Something along the lines as of the screen is no longer controlled by the EC, but the driver.....And it has yet to be added.... So i'm told.

 

have you figured out that cpu vrm cooling mod yet?

 

Excellent I need this. After wanting to drive a screw driver through my motherboard earlier tonight when I had to take it apart just to access that CMOS battery I never want to have to do it again. I would be willing to tear it down one more time just to set this up so I never have to ever worry again. Such a simple CMOS reset should never be such a great undertaking.

 

Looking at this again...Are the wires reversed at the base as well?

 

Possibly, but it is just the color wire he used. I'm sure he is just going by the continuity of the battery and ignoring the wire color. As long as the one way connectors are correct you can ignore the color.

Edit: Polarity not continuity... Man I need to stop commenting while on conference calls.. haha

 

Yes, otherwise it would be backwards. The wiring pieces I bought from a vendor in China have red and black reversed, but it does not matter because they are not crossed. They could both be the same color... irrelevant.

Exactly. I almost took the pins out of the plastic on each end to reverse them, but then I was like... nope, total waste of time since it doesn't matter.