*** MSI 16L13 (Eurocom Tornado F5)/EVOC 16L-G-1080 15.6" Owner's Lounge ***

Patience. It is under development. I've been doing lots of testing. We want to be sure you get the best BIOS available. I suspect they will release it pretty soon.

If you already have the highest score for GTX 1070 Notebook and 7700K, what's not to love about that? Should only get better, so that's good as well.

 

@Mr. Fox

Because while you have a 20,300 score wich is 600 point difference with the best Firestrike score on desktop for 7700k / GTX 1080 of 20,911
(And i'm sure you'll be able to contest that once you reach 5.3GHZ on CPU)

I'm getting 16,300 maximum wich is 2,300 point difference with the best Firestrike score on desktop for a 7700k / GTX 1070 of 18,600

It's just sad when you pay 3K for a laptop and you can't enjoy the performance it's supossed to deliver
It's like buying a Ferrari with the motor stuck @ 70MPH.

 

Damn, you're gonna break that 20K before I get my machine. S'okay. I'm not jealous. Not at all. Not even slightly.

 

That's totally bogus (NV behavior, not you!). I could see them setting some kind of a hard limit at 90C or 95C because they don't want warranty claims when we burn out our GPUs with OC. But anything that far below safe operating limits should not be triggering throttles.

 

I don't believe it's as simple as just disabling G-Sync. From what I have read, there are different signal paths between CPU/GPU/Panel depending on whether it's wired for G-Sync or Optimus.

 

Xeon is optimized for different apps than Core i7. We buy Xeons in servers even though they have lower clock speed, because they push server workloads (in our case, VMware and DevOps) at high constant utilization. The main advantage of Xeon-class chips is you can get higher core counts (6, 8, 12, 16, or even 24 cores per CPU) and multiple CPUs on a motherboard. I've never seen a Xeon in a laptop with more than 4 cores, although for my workload I would have bought one if I could!

Take a look at the benchmark differences between Xeon E3, Xeon E5, and Core i7 for workloads similar to what you plan to run.

 

Already broke 20K on Fire Strike. Now, here's a 3DMark 11 run...

http://www.3dmark.com/3dm11/11998942

@Phoenix @Rage Set
I think somebody said a 330W AC adapter was "overkill" at one point. Maybe not. Here is just the 1080.

Again beaten only by the P870DM3.

 

you are 4K above me in 3DMark:

http://www.3dmark.com/3dm11/11981200

 

Here's the PCMark 8 Storage Test on my Sandisk X400. I'll run it on the Samsung 960 Pro and the MyDigitalSSD BPX NVMe drives as well. Takes about an hour for 3 passes, but it's very thorough.

The Humble Bundle is Steam, but once you redeem it on Steam you can get the Futuremark license key from within the program, uninstall the Steam version and install the standalone version.

http://www.3dmark.com/pcm8/18133318

 

show me your AS SSD Benchmark / CrystalDiskMark

here are mine on my BGA Lappy using Super RAID 4 FTW


AS SSD Benchmark:



CrystalDiskMark:



ATTO Disk Benchmark:

 

You'll definitely be livin' la vida loca compared to my scores with that monster 960 4TB RAID setup... Hammer time... can't touch this.

 

let me have that at least since you smoke in every other category

 

Clevo used to make an X79 chipset laptop, that could take 12-core Xeon processors. If they re-introduced an X99 based laptop, its certainly something I would consider!

http://www.eurocom.com/ec/specs(234)ec

 

I used to have one with 4960X and it was awesome. Sadly, 980M SLI was the end of the line for that mega-bruiser. Had 1080 SLI worked in it, I never would have sold it.

Just one 1080 beats its scores in spite of the more powerful CPU. There is a MASSIVE gap between 980M SLI and 1080 SLI. It's also surprising how well 7700K @ 5.0GHz holds its own against 4960X @ 4.7GHz.

http://www.3dmark.com/compare/3dm11/11115261/3dm11/10783428/3dm11/11898837/3dm11/11916953

 

Personally I use the SM961 version which has faster I/O or 4K Randoms. I got as high as 72 and most of the time stays in the 60's, and even when doing stuff it goes as low as 59-60. My samsung pro does like yours, gets mid 60's to mid 50's even as low as 49-51 when doing stuff. Much slower, but the sequential is higher. If you are going RAID0 anyways, just use the SM961's , thats my advice. Cheaper faster at 4K random's though they will only last a few years. But if yours the kind of person upgrading all the time and even using multiple 2TB drives, then who cares. The 960 Pro's will outlive thier use completely. That is like paying for a feature you might not benifit from IMO.

 

How far we have come! The clock speed of the original IBM PC, with its 8088 CPU (8 bit bus, 16 bit instruction set, 20 bit memory address bus) was 4.77 MHz.

 

I used to have one. It was my first PC.

 

That last phrase is great advice all around. I find it fascinating to read these forums and see how very different are the use-cases of various people buying the same machine.

 

There are clearly some differences mechanically (this was from a Kaby Lake review; "original" is Skylake):



The review talks about the new video decode unit negatively impacting power efficiency. It is not clear if that is true only when it's in use, or if it somehow impacts thermals even when it's nominally idle.

I don't have any deep explanation, but there is obviously some mechanical and packaging difference here, so @Mr. Fox is not imagining things. Given that photo above, I'd be surprised if there was not a thermal change (plus or minus) of some kind.

Hypothesis: Intel is touting the capacitors for "smooth power delivery". This may mean higher current integrated over time simply because the Icc waveform is slightly closer to pure DC. There may be a slight reliability improvement as a payoff. Admittedly, this is a pretty speculative hypothesis. I'm just thinking out loud here, not proposing this as a serious scientific theory!

 

Could it be a measurement artifact? Maybe they moved the location of the internal probes, or put something warm near the probe that wasn't before? That would explain why you're not seeing throttling issues, just a higher temp number.

 

Which database do you use? Most are highly tunable to optimize I/O performance.

 

This makes me really tempted to try to get a spare bottom cover (once I get my machine) and try a mod of my own, not only for cooling but also for CMOS battery access. I think I could get access to a CNC mill to make a really nice job of it.

 

Indeed. I tested my CAD-type apps on 15.6" at 1080p, and in wireframe mode the aliasing of very thin lines is annoying; not a problem at 3K or 4K. When editing high-res textures, the 4K super-retina res (and I say that because at 15.6" inch 4K is really beyond retina for most eyes), the extra pixels get rid of some Moire artifacts. And I'm with you about crisp fonts, because I like being able to edit an office document with a full letter-sized page on screen at once.

If my main use was gaming or web surfing, I'd go 1080p. I know I'm taking a performance hit with 4K but I'm okay with that because of the other benefits.

 

@Mr. Fox, the King of Quiet Understatement. ROFL!

 

It's a clunky duck only its mother could love, and the GPU is nothing special, but that would be a thumping good mobile VMware ESXi host if you stuff enough RAM and SSD into it.

Thanks for the link; I didn't realize there was anyone actually exploiting high-core Xeons in a mobile.

 

Yup, look at this score from Brother @Johnksss@iBUYPOWER with the one he had with an Xeon E5-1680. In particular, look at the physics score.

http://www.3dmark.com/3dm11/11476912

 

I wonder if companies like HIDEvolution could step up to the plate for their machines on behalf of customers like Phoenix.

Now, the x7200 was my first barebones Clevo, and you'll notice the driver's page I reference in my sig. I was expecting I would need to be proactive for drivers with that purchase. However, before that, I was pretty much a Sager guy. And for those Sagers, their web site had a link on a support page in which I can pick a model and download the drivers specifically for my machine. They were usually up to date with the Clevo drivers, and if Clevo updated, they were updated in a week's times, tops.

I don't know what Clevo expects, but as an ODM, it is plain to me they don't directly support owners of their products. Perhaps they feel driver updates is the reseller's responsibility. And perhaps this is why Sager has their own driver's page to this date.

Also, I do know other resellers do see driver downloads as a problem. Some are very proactive. For example, we should commend @John@OBSIDIAN-PC, who has gone the extra mile with a driver app for their customers. I think we all praise that effort.

For the others, as a service to their (previous) Clevo customers like Phoenix, seems like something that could be done relatively inexpensively is that a reseller could weekly run a sync on specific models' drivers from Clevo, place those on Amazon S3, Google Drive, Drop Box or some other inexpensive file sharing service, and provide a download on their own web sites. I know Sager does this, just surprised other resellers don't offer the same service mitigating any frustration on an end user's part.

Just a thought...

 

Incase you missed this old post I made bro......

I for one will never purchase a Clevo anymore, at least for the near future until they change these things:

1- Will never want to ever want to type on their crappy/cramped keyboards which are the worse keyboards I ever used on any laptop in my life! See: Clevo makes the worst laptop keyboard EVER!

2- I will not support or buy anything from a company that does not offer a proper drivers download page with download speeds averaging 25KB/S and many disconnections / downloading again with my download manager to get 1 download finished that would take anywhere from 1-5 hours depending on the driver file size. Hello 2017, we're no in the Dial up age anymore. Sure, Sager's site has fast downloads, but they are usually outdated drivers compared to the ones Clevo offers

3- I will not support a company that makes users beg and look around trying to find the latest BIOS/EC Firmware. If it wasn't for Prema, I wouldn't know where else to get these updates (legally from the manufacturer site that is)

4- For offering such high end laptops, the least they could do is offer good heatsinks that make good contact with the CPU. It's a matter of luck with a Clevo laptop to get a good heatsink or a poor one, making the use of thin pastes like Liquid Ultra a hit or miss which has to be remedied by using inferior paste like IC Diamond which is thicker to fill in the gap.

 

No. I recall that. I understand your built up frustration.

My point was is that you shouldn't have had to go that route in the first place. My suggestion is that the resellers have a page with links to the drivers stored on S3, Google Drive, Drop Box, etc. Then, for the customer, each and everyone can just download the correct drivers from your reseller; thus eliminating the need to download things from the slow Clevo internet link.

 

but let's be realistic bro, it's not one laptop, there are 10s of models, how much can a reseller do? build systems, test them, deal with customer support and then driver updates / version numbers

Simple fix, get a real server and all resellers have a single reliable resource for driver downloads , latest ones that is, and be done with it. We're in 2017, note 1997 to be downloading @ 15-30 KB/S, and a lot of times, you download that file, after a 4 hour wait, only to discover that the downloaded file is still the older version because Clevo updates the driver numbers first, then some other dude uploads the actual files a week later.

 

@Phoenix, I love you, but come on. It isn't that hard. Some resellers already offer this...

http://www.sagernotebook.com/drivers.php

And then there is the good work of @John@OBSIDIAN-PC

 

outdated drivers, no thank you sir

 

As of late... Yah. I don't really know.

All I can say is about 7 to 10 years ago, that page matched what could be found on the Clevo site. And if there was an update by Clevo, in about a week's time it was updated by Sager. There are scripts admins can run that automate this kind of thing.

I'm not trying to argue with you or say you're wrong. All I'm saying is that it *can* be done by a reseller. And if no other resellers are making an effort, then perhaps one or two should consider this as a way to bolster their customer service over others, and this (along with Prema Partnership) may put them above the rest when people come looking for their next 'taptop'.

This isn't the correct forum for this discussion, so I won't respond, but just wanted to throw this out their to people like @Donald@HIDevolution, @Meaker@Sager, @pat@XOTICPC and the rest as something to consider.

"Over and Out"

 

@Phoenix there is a reason MSI has been using basically the same keyboard for years now. It's damn good for a laptop (with a chiclet) keyboard and smokes the competition. I love my mechanical keyboard on my desktop but for a laptop the steel series keyboard is excellent.

 

Agreed. I never typed on a laptop keyboard and enjoyed it as much as this SteelSeries keyboard

 

THIS bro Fox!! This is what people should buy if they absolutely MUST buy BGA (for portability or whatsoever reason.). Why pay more than max $150 bucks?


http://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/prod...30358360134c101442632&ven3=300103758360635080

Edit: BTW
See this awful terrible Crippled FS Pysics score from this new Asus Rog BGABOOK with the newest BGA trash from Intel [email protected]

http://www.notebookcheck.com/Test-Asus-ROG-G701VIK-Laptop.197942.0.html

Maybe Put @4.3GHz as the Jokebook from Asus.

 

Oh my gosh 120 fps in gta 5 is so glorious!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Well, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

Ah, looks like I was right about my earlier idea I mentioned that your previously high tRFC at 1000 odd (and now reduced to 560) was the reason for your low Physics score for a 5Ghz overclock - now you've lowered tRFC you've got a much better Physics score!

 

Interesting advice about re-lidding CPUs: always use glue according to this website to maintain better temperatures for longer with less need to re-paste in the future:
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2017/02/21/relid_your_intel_cpu_on_cheap_no_delid_tools

Although, not sure how applicable this is to laptops where CPU heatsink pressure is lower - their argument was based around the CPU substrate bending under heatsink pressure & the glueing ensuring that IHS adds to the overall structural integrity of the CPU resulting in less bending of the CPU substrate under heatsink pressure.

 

Someone tagged me so i think i should somehow leave my opinion, not my "brand" opinion but my personal opinion based on the many years i have working exclusive with CLEVO.
I know that this might sound odd or many will disagree with me, but just try to understand my point, that is, for most of CLEVO problems i blame the vendors/brands and even some end clients, and not CLEVO.

First, in my many years in this business i had the chance to see how brands/vendors build the systems and support their systems. I´m very sorry to say that some do a total crappy job, i been in places like that, i have seen it.

A lot of vendors and brands just unpack, slap your components and send it to you, plain and simple.

A lot of vendors do not work with CLEVO, they work by buying from other re-sellers, so there´s no way they will ever send relevant information to CLEVO, keeping CLEVO in the dark about eventual problems. I also know big re-sellers that report almost nothing to CLEVO, some are not even aware of "problems" or "stuff that should be improved".

I also blame brands or vendors for sending a crippled unit to the client, how can someone send a unit without even doing a proper temperature test, it´s so easy. You test it and if the cooler is faulty just send the unit back to CLEVO or your supplier, if they start getting units back maybe they will go "Well we need to do something about this".

The second problem is people actually referring to the laptops as a "CLEVO" and not the brand name, this is unfair as someone saying "My CLEVO is crap, it throttles in 10 seconds" will also have a negative effect on brands and stores who work hard to be sure they are sending a throttle free unit to their clients.

It will also cause another problem, most of the clients see no justification to spend +50€ or even +100€ if they can buy the same "CLEVO" in another shop, so a big percentage of clients will buy where it´s cheaper, feeding the low quality builds. I´m not saying that the cheaper is always worse or that the expensive is always best, that is not the problem, the problem is, that to most clients it´s all the same "CLEVO" right?

No matter what anyone says, but for me, if any of my laptops has a problem, i´m the one to blame, not CLEVO, i was the one who decided to sell the model, i´m the one supporting it, i´m the one building and testing it, and i´m the one deciding if the unit is good or not to send to the client.
It would be easy to say to my client "Yeah well, that´s CLEVO problem, not my fault."

Now about your points:

1- I wonder how many vendors/brands reported that to CLEVO
2- You did not buy from CLEVO but from a brand/vendor, i still think they should be the ones providing all the support
3- Same as above
4- Brands/Vendors should have a quality control, if they allow crippled heatsinks to go to a client and not just be returned to the manufacturer then it says much about them.

Again this is just my opinion, if you see the same CLEVO base from different stores showing totally different temperatures / results, you have to wonder...

Stores need to look at their products and think "Well this is a very expensive laptop, i need to treat this thing as such, my clients deserve to get a unit performing to it´s fullest potential", not the typical production line with people earning the minimal wage and just slapping your order parts and going "next".
Every time a store messes up, or every time a unhappy client goes to a forum complaining about a CLEVO based model it also hurts my business.

Also remember, MSI sells to end clients, MSI is a brand, they need to have the "brand" package going on, with stylish website, drivers, support, the full deal. CLEVO does not, i still see CLEVO as the factory who produces my orders, and that´s it. Everything "brand" related is on me.

Oh i´m sure i could throw some rocks at CLEVO too, but actually not as much as some would think, i see far more problems in the current business model.

 

Awesome post and totally accurate. If all shops that sell CLEVO were as diligent, intelligent and customer-centric the world would be a better place. You are conducting business based on The Golden Rule of "doing unto others as you would have them do unto you" and there is no better way to operate. By doing so you build a reputation of trust and excellence that is rare.

Are you a @Prema partner? If not, you should be. Your values are shared and his firmware fits your approach of giving customers everything they deserve for their hard-earned money.

 

Unfortunately i can´t.
There is a on-going deal with prema and another Portuguese store, that deal includes "exclusivity" to Portugal.
Prema honors the deal as he should.
The best i can do is try to improve the BIOS myself to some extent of what i find is better for the client. Even the BIOS, i took it upon myself to improve it to the best of my ability.

 

Bold emphasis is mine, but this right here is the type of stuff I really appreciate and would win my business if I was shopping in your area. Thanks for all you do.

 

If they are one of the shops that slops things out the door with a "good luck" attitude toward their customers--hopefully not--maybe they will fold up and a door of opportunity for Obsidian will open for becoming a @Prema partner shop. I do not know if they are good or not, and they could be amazing... just saying you might have the opportunity some day. I certainly hope so. I really like how you operate. I expect the people I purchase from to have ownership of my outcome.

 

Yeah im hopping for the same, specially because we cant do everything.
We are a small team and adding BIOS stuff to our list of daily tasks is heavy.

 

I just bought two PM751 from Obsidian (unfortunately not for me) and what I can say is that everything goes smooth. But, the most important, no throttling, no high temp, no absurd fan noise, no driver problems, ... Bot laptops were tweaked as promised and tested.
I have to say that I had some fears about these laptop... now, I'm convinced to buy it again but through Obsidian (probably the best CLEVO seller in Europe - or at least one of the best) Good luck and continue that way. You will see me soon for mine.

 

Thank you for such nice comments!!!
Will you guys be needing bios updates?
Have you checked this: https://forum.obsidian-pc.com/discussion/67/p751dm2-g

You should use that bios version, starting from next app update you will need to be in the new bios stream to get updates for it
And yes BIOS/EC updates in Windows are ready with a BIG load of safety checks.
Go to the website chat and we will flash it for you, or just wait for next bios update that should come out today or tomorrow

 

Yup... nailed it. Definitely a better value with the BPX. At least in my opinion. 960 Pro is just way too stinking expensive for what you get in comparison. The only benchmark strongly favoring 960 Pro is AS SSD. Real world performance differences will be indiscernible. Thermals are about the same, but the BPX seems less prone to throttling in my initial down and dirty testing. Considering they offer the same 5-year warranty, I just can't see any point in paying extra (as much as double the price, depending on where you buy it) for the Sammy.

MyDigitalSSD BPX 512GB NVMe SSD	Samsung 960 Pro 512GB NVMe SSD

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Spoiler

@Phoenix @D2 Ultima @bloodhawk @ssj92 @Prema @Johnksss@iBUYPOWER @TBoneSan @Talon @Diversion @Papusan @Mobius 1 @Robbo99999 @hmscott @ajc9988 @Donald@HIDevolution