GT72/GT72S and GT80/GT80S Owners GPU Upgrade Discussion

I sent my form in on the 27th of August. But did not have the questions until they sent out the first email with the details of the program.

 

At this point the only approach is the "reasonable" approach, a pragmatic one.

We need MSI to be alive to support our laptops, killing them off for messing up satisfies the "blood lust" of being taken out for a walk only to find we've been left in the field without a reason for being there.

MSI is trying to give us that reason now, by pulling together what they believe is the only workable solution.

On a one on one basis an MXM GPU upgrade is a good thing, we sell our old GPU and get a new GPU, subtract the sales $ we got from the cost $ we paid, and that's that.

But, taking into account 100,000 upgrades going on, maybe even more in the future, building a sustainable eco-system that can support such activity would be difficult.

Maybe 90% of the "upgraders" wouldn't find a buyer for their old MXM GPU's.

That's a problem of scaling. Making a market for a few thousand upgrader's might work, you could find buyers for that many GPU's.

But, if there were 100x as many sellers, there wouldn't be a market for that many "spare" GPU's.

Taking that into account, it's likely MSI is doing us all a "favor" by providing this method of GPU upgrades.

A whole laptop upgrade where MSI can take a whole laptop and turn it around to "recycle" the old GPU's might be the only workable method of turning over that many GPU's.

MSI probably realized this when their idea of providing 2 generations of GPU upgrades to 100,000+ laptops finally hit them.

That along with the "process" of doing the upgrades for that many laptops.

It's a lot of work, hands on time, pulling apart a laptop and just replacing the MXM GPU, let alone replacing the entire cooling system, power system, and chassis parts to accommodate the new hardware.

And, the upgraded PSU's cost money too, in order to feed the new GPU's for the GT80's we need 2x the PSU's.

It's a lot to consider when you get down to the details of implementation.

MSI did promise us 2 generations of MXM GPU upgrades, and this is a form of that promise that I would consider valid.

The cost is more than I would like it to be, but I am getting more hardware as part of the upgrade than I thought I would get too.

If MSI instead provided an actual GPU upgrade program to take my laptop and upgrade it with new GPU's, new power, new cooling, etc, I would imagine it would end up costing the same.

MSI did warn us along the way we wouldn't be doing the GPU upgrades ourselves, MSI would require it to be done by them or an MSI authorized service center.

And, even in the "upgrade my laptop" case I would hope MSI would deal with getting value from my GPU's and reflecting that in the upgrade cost, as I wouldn't want to deal with re-selling them.

What we have ended up with is an upgrade program that MSI can support. New laptops with new Pascal GPU's in the best form they can be delivered.

MSI optimizes the upgrade building on their already established strengths: building new laptops and refurbishing old ones.

MSI would have had to build an entire new "GPU upgrade" business to actually do GPU upgrades to our old laptops. That would have been a large enterprise unto itself.

Anyway, it's finally here, and it's finally happening, so we need to either do it or not do it based on the cost / benefit's for each of us individually.

 

All I can say is to be patient for now, and when MSI responds please let us know what they have to say by posting here, and I will keep trying to do the same.

Maybe MSI's "eblast" of answers will have all you need to decide

 

So you agree, neither of us know if what MSI can afford to do, neither of us know how many units are affected, neither of are in a position make a suggestion that MSI is doing us a favour, neither of us know jack, except what MSI has told us.

There is no reason to believe that MSI cannot afford to resolve this at a comparable cost to that which they advertised, the upgradable MXM GPU.

Speculation on this matter means nothing.

MSI have misled their customers and cannot expect their customers to pay for upgrades that they do not require to resolve the matter.

 

No, I don't agree with any of that.

After considerable thought, I think MSI is giving us the only workable solution for providing generational GPU upgrades.

And, I hope MSI continues to provide generational GPU upgrades in the same fashion moving forward.

If I get a Pascal laptop trade-in now, can I get a Volta laptop in a trade-in program later. That's my latest question to MSI

 

Shoot, how do you know how many units have been sold, how many upgrade responses have MSI had, what is the currently value of MSI, what is the businesses working capital, what is the production cost of A. the GT73VR chassis, no GPU, B. the GT83VR chassis, no GPU, C. manufacturing costs for all of the MXM 10 series cards? Reliable sources preferred.

 

As to the GT72S vs GT72VR, I would ask MSI to allow a trade-in to a GT73.

I think MSI should do that, given the stripped down nature of the GT72VR - it's a real downgrade chassis-wise from the GT72S.

Please let us know what MSI says when they finally answer you.

 

i did not get a special "fast pass" at msi or anything, i just wanted a 1080 and crosshipping, and once they answered i felt price was fair and i took the deal. I dont have any more questions for them so no reason for me to wait. As a matter of fact as one of the first gt72 owners my laptop warranty expires at the start of 2017. so i personally dont want to end up in a position where some laptop part fails after warranty expires, and my trade in value sinks. i would hate to have to pay for new motherboard or similar for my 2 year old gt72, just to trade it in a few months later. MSI already stated failed components would be valued at full retail cost, so no way i am going to put myself in a position to go down that path. so if you have not considered warranty as an important component of the upgrade program, i encourage you to think again. in the same veign the opposite applies- if you have enough warranty for another year, and dont need the additional performance today, it may make sense to delay upgrade until closer to warranty expiration, and get the next gen after 1080.

Nothing prevents you from taking the deal if you have price already for the model you want. i think any delay at this point is people waiiting on more answers to more questions (some of which have been answered already in the last few pages so folks should go thru the last 10-20 pages of this thread)

for those who think msi is a huge corporation, they are not- at least not is USA or europe . They have about 50 employees listed in USA, about 15 in France and 9 in the uk ( listed on LinkedIn). thats total employees at those locations- only Some of those employees are "customer facing". most of their "huge company" are mainland china, and taiwan (thats where the "thousands" of employees are and i suspect alot of those are Factory employees.) In USA it is their Inside Sales Support (support for corporate sales) who are responsible for the individual communication with each participant of the trade-in program, so the upside is you get accurate clear follow thru with processing money, but the downside is their primary job is not to be a Question/answer helpdesk, so it will take some time , and they handwrite the responses, they are not pasting buttons in a helpdesk system.

just for clarity sake, if you have not figured it out yet- alot of MSI employees, English is not their First language, so i would not try to think too deeply into every word they write- they are obviously trying to communicate, but i would not be trying to grasp every word and dissect it to pieces.

as far as keeping your old gpu, while you can make the logical argument and i dont disagree with the logic (if a kit was available to buy) at this point it just doesnt matter all that much. msi can always claim higher msrp on new mxm cards, and the difference is nullified versus any supposed trade in of old gpu. that alienware guy's vendor (and other vendors) is selling msi 1070n for 955$ on ebay, and a power brick is 160-200$. so even if our motherboards supported the power feed for the new cards, you are looking at 1100-1200$ and you would still need to purchase a new heatisnk+fan. and thats just the 1070, nevermind the 1080. so that trade in price from msi of 700$, 970m>1070 is in the ballpark with alternatives via ebay and arguably already gives at least some of your old gpu value.

for those who want the 1070 in a gt73vr chassis, the retail price delta between gt72vr and gt73vr is 200$, so i expect msi to give you that, as price difference when they reply. (about 900$ to upgrade 970m to 1070n in a gt73)

untill someone starts selling msi 10 series mxm cards for alot less, its virtually impossible to make an argument about price of trade-in not including trade in at least some value of old gpu, especially when you get 2 year warranty for new gpu and entire kit.
Msi 1070N selling for 955$, clevo 1070n selling for 720$.

the issue seems to be the high price of the new cards, rather than keeping your old gpu imho. not just msi but all of them..clevo gtx1080 for 1600$ with power brick (erucom or rjtech)....thats literally twice the cost of desktop card and desktop power supply....expensive..

but as noted above, as far as trade-in program, at this point it just comes down to need, the desired machine, and timing.
.there is nothing to resolve as all things just end up with a cost $. either get a 1070 for 700 and not give them old gpu, or they jack up the price to 955+160+???? and they send you back your old gpu, you end up about the same financially.

 

MSI Headquarters in New Taipei City, Taiwan
Type
Public
Traded as TWSE: 2377
Industry Electronics
Founded August 4, 1986; 30 years ago
Founder Joseph Hsu
Jeans Huang
Frank Lin
Kenny Yu
Henry Lu
Headquarters Zhonghe District, New Taipei City, Taiwan
Key people
Joseph Hsu (Chairman)
Products Computer hardware
Revenue US$2.7 billion (2014)
Number of employees 13,500
Website http://www.msi.com

13,500 employees, revenues of $2.7billion 2 years ago.

They're big.

 

as noted 90% of those employees are not in usa or europe. so my point is since your email responses are not coming from taiwan/china , its going to take some time..its not that many people processing the trade in program. you can look up their employees on linkedIn if you want, just make an account.

 

Accept there are not many in US. But a company of this size can afford to fix it at a cost relevant price, as per my previous posts.

 

We don't know any of that, and I doubt we ever will know any of those details, but we don't need to.

MSI has given the form and method of providing GPU upgrades from Maxwell to Pascal and MSI promises the same for Volta if we wish to wait for that.

The only difference is what form I imagined that taking is different.

After thinking it through I understand now what I didn't think about then, it's a big undertaking to scale up to doing huge numbers of GPU upgrades from doing a relative few in the past.

It's time consuming and costly to do anything on a scale as large as I estimate MSI could be accountable to handle - upgrades for all GT72's / GT80's sold.

The absolute number doesn't matter, what matters is the scale of it all; it's MSI's *entire* production run of GT72 / GT80's that are potentially upgradeable!

MSI don't know how many they are going to need to do yet, but from their comments in the answers they sent so far it sounds like they have gotten a larger than expected response.

To build up a whole new leg of manufacturing to handle one on one laptop upgrades would be expensive to take on a large number of units.

The capacity required wouldn't fit in the capacity of their current repairs support group, even if MSI counted all their partner service centers.

It makes sense to do the upgrade process using the processes MSI already have in place, MSI already have experience scaling for new hardware builds and for refurbishment builds.

It makes sense to use the processes already in place rather than try to estimate how large to make an "upgrade" line to handle the unknown number of upgrades MSI might need to handle over the next 2 years plus.

It's not that I am giving up on the original idea, it's that I have realized it wasn't a realistic imagining I had of how it would play out.

Again, I do wish it cost less, but then again I do want MSI to have a viable business to be able to support my laptop(s) for years to come.

 

as noted before there is arguably nothing to fix as different paths all end up at same cost.

the last argument you are down to is "i am getting new chassis and new card and final cost is 1500" versus "i would have had to swap out my mxm card and sell the old mxm card and final cost would have been 1500, but because i cant swap my own gpu msi owes me something and they are big enough to pay".

if you just want to get on with gaming, the offers presented are actually decent imho at least from what i have seen in the table-matrix, the offer to me and offer to @hmscott. if you want to use this as an opportunity to get something for false adverting (not cost of upgrade but simply around the fact they promised mxm kit and have not delivered it) then the lawsuit will be the only way...for the rest of folks who just want to game, the options presented are pretty good, especially with latest details about cosmetic damage being irrelevant, and no immediate deadline..in alot of scenarios this can be alot more advantageous to users especially for those who can delay the upgrade.

 

I agree. While the trade-in cost is different per area and market I do believe MSI are making the "better" workable solution based on many factors (including themselves), just not one. It is not the absolute best possible scenario but it is a working one that actually does benefit some people.

Hopefully more users can reach to a satisfactory scenario but in reality, it is very difficult to achieve that. Depending on your region, prices will be considerable. And also depending on the model. I would say to keep in contact to MSI to reach the best scenario for each of you. If you are not happy with the offer, keep asking them and letting them know how you feel. Just don't let the stress of the situation get the better of you

 

I agree that it is the only workable solution. The cost is not a workable solution MSI should shoulder the cost not the customer.

 

I say you should keep at it, to see if you can find the sweet spot for the price. I haven't negotiated with them yet, but my plan is to "downgrade" to a GT73, so hopefully I don't need to pay much (basing this over other people's offering from current GT80 to 1070 SLI).

I personally don't think that current GPU price shouldn't be factored in, but it would be ideal/awesome if we could keep the GPU when trading the machine. Of course, while this sounds great, it is also wishful thinking from my part.

 

If this is the only workable plan MSI should say, we will value your machine at $$$ value, what machine would you like to use it against, and give us access to any notebook they make.

Easiest solution.

 

I asked about going to a gt73vr gtx 1080 from a gt80 980m sli and they told me it would only cost me $700. The model I would be getting would be the gt73vr pro 003.

 

They could in theory do this. Have you tried it? Hell, even a GT62 is an enticing upgrade (ignoring the interl 6700HQ heh).

700dlrs? That's actually reasonable, I might do this. Hell, I could Trade and buy a total 2 GT73VR with GTX1080 for 3600dlrs. Hmm...

 

I could be tempted to sidegrade to a GS43VR, and build a desktop. I've been thinking about this for a year or so now, but never made a decision.

 

Completely understand you. Seems like the GS43VR is a very capable little machine. I was initially tempted by the GS30 series due to the external box, but a GS43 is a nice middle ground. Have you tried proposing this to MSI?

 

Yes, and they ignored my request.

 

heck if you are asking about ANY laptop in their lineup and are ok with screen smaller than 17", imho the most interesting laptop in the entire msi lineup is the 16L13 which is the only laptop in the entire msi lineup, which comes with socketed cpu (not soldered), and mxm style 1070 card (not soldered)...other than questionable driver availability (its an oem machine so eurocom qould be the only site where you can get drivers), (and 15" screen if you can live with something smaller than 17") ..thats the msi to get imho..if there was a 17" version i'd be all over that and would pay even more money to trade for it, but there is no 17" version and i dont think i can live with 15" screen

 

I agree, not available in the UK.

 

More answers from MSI:
----------------------------------
Hi Scott,

If you decide to opt in for the 1st gen upgrade, you will still be able to upgrade for 2nd gen.

Only users that previous purchase GT70(s)/GT80(s) with 9xx series will be qualify.

To be honest, we’re not sure what NVIDIA have up in their sleeves, but as far as we know the 2nd gen gpu that we are honoring will be 11xx series.

We do not know if NVIDIA will consider 11xx series as Volta or whatever name they come out with.

We do not know what the next gen GPU price will be, it may be similar, higher, or lower to this generations. Again, it’s up to NVIDIA.

Here’s update chart since the 1st eblast that I have been using to answer people’s cases, it has GT72S and GT80S update on the list. As you can see GT80 and GT80s have the same offered model.



We didn’t enlist the GT73VR due to not having an optical drive.

In some cases, this was a HUGE issue for a few customers.

But we have decided to list it up to give people choices and just inform the customer that GT73VR model does not have an optical drive.

I hope this can help. And be prepare, we are working on a full Q&A eblast for everyone to clear up some questions.

It’s seems like we’re getting the same question over and over again as we work down the list.

If you have any more questions, please feel free to let me know. I’ll continue my venture down the list again!
----------------------------------

 

how can they add the cost of the removed parts to what we are paying????

 

that msrp includes ssd's and ram and other things msi throws in to up the price....

 

in no way should the upgrade cost for my laptop be $1400 unless its for 1080 sli
Charging 980 owners $2k is like forcing them to pay for half of the new laptop... completely unacceptable
all they did was add an s to the end and didn't take into account new chipsets or anything...

AGAIN MSI, You fail to take proper pricing into account...


HMSCOTT, Please ask about the different chipsets having the same pricing even though the GT80s is newer by an entire year and why there is such a jump in cost when going to a 1070 sli and 1080 sli? and why they are both half the cost of the new laptop....

 

What doesn't make sense to you?

If you send in a laptop without a part that was included with the original configuration, MSI will charge you the cost of that part.

If you don't send in the laptop with all the parts, you won't get the full value of your trade-in.

It's that simple.

 

Anything that is included in their normally listed laptop configuration will be included, whether you want it or not, MSI has never done custom builds.

Your purchase from Xotic had as it's base an MSI configuration. Xotic took out parts and added parts for a custom build. MSI doesn't do that.

It's not something MSI is going to change for the trade-in.

 

Bruv, check the receipts before you empathize with this company. MSI had 2nd Q 2016 revenues of $22,590,000,000 United States Dollars, up 22.62% over the previous year. Full year revenues in 2015 of $85,290,000,000.

Yes, I'm including all of the zeros for emphasis. SPOILER ALERT: Business is GOOD.

Doing right by us would be like buying a cup of Starbucks, to MSI. They don't WANT to take a single bit of loss. This is a corporation that has decided to put the bottom line over good PR.

 

The GT80S's will be able to transfer their hardware upgrades easier than us GT80 owners.

The chipset difference comes down to DDR3 vs DDR4 memory and M.2 SATA vs M.2 PCIE x4.

It will cost us older chipset guys more to upgrade our parts to the new parts, so giving us a break in cost is helpful.

The same cost for GT80S owners shows that the bulk of the value is in the GPU's and the GPU support system, which cost the same to swap in for both the GT80 and GT80S.

The parts in the GT80S are just as outdated now as the ones in the GT80, as the GT83VR uses a new motherboard, new case, new cooling system, etc.

So from MSI's point of view, where the costs are calculated, the GT80/GT80S are the same.

 

I asked about the fact I had the 4k screen and optical dive....I wonder if that is why I have not heard back. They have a 4k option ..but no optical drive option. So for me a charge of $1000 seems to not take into consideration that fact. I wonder what a slim line blue ray drive for laptops cost?

As strange as it may seem I still use the blue ray drive a lot!

So from what I have read...it seems some are getting offers and most have heard nothing.

I can afford to wait but certainly feel the pain of others who might need a more speedy response.

 

We may never know what the actual cost vs recovered cost for these upgrades are in the long run.

In original vision for GPU upgrades, MSI might have made more money selling us GPU upgrades and GPU upgrade services than they are making now.

These new laptops aren't cheap, and we are paying a fraction of their sales price, and getting a no-hassle trade-in for our old hardware.

IDK if you have tried to sell your laptop recently, but everyone I have seen sell theirs sold at much less than their already depressed asking price.

With others pulling their for sale laptops off the market and deciding to use them for their value rather than take a loss.

Talking about zeros, if we average the price down to $3000 per laptop value, over 300,000 laptops, that's $900M - just shy of $1B in "sales", which isn't just a small Small Starbucks coffee, that's the Mega Venti Grande of cups

There are lots of numbers to throw around, and it's not a something for nothing business - or world.

If you want something nice, it's going to cost.

Pick something lower on the trade-in chart, or ask MSI for a downgrade to another model if you want a no cost or low cost trade-in.

 

i don t think anyone is empathizing, i think you are getting peoples opinion and it maybe different from yours.
to counter your "emphasis" msi's profit margin is sometimes 5% and rarely goes above 10%. their liabilities are half of their assets, so its far from a money grubbing, ultra profitable company. hardware business is known for its brutally small profit margins.

see https://us.msi.com/about/investor
which you can use to see their income/expense sheet for q1 2016:
http://emops.twse.com.tw/server-jav...how&co_id=2377&year=2016&season=1&report_id=C

not trying to defend them, but you make it sound like they have a 200% profit margin on goods sold, which is simply not true.


just fyi clutch info on M.2 slots- i grabbed the manual (gt73vr) and the manual says you can configure those to be either sata or pcie mode, so if you have a few sata m.2 drives you should be able to just drop those in..i will confirm once i get my notebook in the mail. so i expect to have to buy new ddr4, but expect to be able to move over my existing m.2 sata drives over.

 

Buy an external Blu-ray drive.

Internal BD drives cost $30-70 retail, likely $5-15 cost to MSI, so other than the loss of the function, it's not a big $ value loss.

 

what parts were added to the gt83 that raise the value of it by $1k?

 

2 x 1080's + 2x 330w PSU's, up from 2 x 1070's + 2x 240w PSU's for a start.

And $2000 - $1400 = $600 difference. or $300 / GPU more for a 1080 vs 1070, cheaper than the actual prices being charged for individual GPU's.

Let's not argue this out here, if you want to get into little $ details, PM me.

 

umm no im talking about the only provided option for me to go to 1070 sli... they arent priced much higher than my 980m's

 

But The new GT73 does not have an option for a optical drive...so were would one put it?
I know I can get a portable drive but there does not seem to be anyway to add one internally.

 

Its hard to tell if companies in other countries are really being truthful about revenues. Companies in Taiwan may not have as much oversight...kind of like when we had the depression caused by Enron. Companies try to hide expenses....

 

The GT73VR doesn't have a slot for an optical drive.

MSI said that in their answers I posted.

MSI didn't initially offer the GT73VR as an option for upgrades for the GT72 because of the lack of an optical drive.

Buy an external drive

 

optical drives are old... i almost never use mine and i also have an external one I used with my razer.... cause it didn't have one... just get an external one

 

Blah Blah...just get an external one.....now I am going to join the lawsuit and put MSI out of bidniss

 

how a lawsuit gona put an internal drive into a gt73?

 

Maybe a better way of understanding if MSI's earnings are accurate is to see a comparison with other companies like HP or Dell and how much they are earning... might prove interesting

 

That would be my claim to accept any judgment.

Yes i am kidding as was the previous post.

 

How about not starting an OT discussion about something that has no effect on the trade-in program we are working through?

 

dell is private so their earnings are not posted outside of government filings, which i am not gona go thru. HP also has 5-10% profit margin..it just sell more stuff so has more overall revenue, but profit margin is also 5-10%. none of the hardware manufacturers have significant profit margins. its a tough tough business making physical things.

here is hp. its pretty easy to read- Revenue is what they take in. Cost of revenue is what it costs to make that money. so the delta is the profit:
https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:HPQ&fstype=ii&ei=EjolWJHZJqa8iwK774KwDA

by comparison its not atypical for software companies to have 50%+ profit margin..some of the software companies much much higher than that. thats why FB/GOOGL/AMZN/NFLIX stock is thru the roof, and all the hardware manuf stocks are in the gutter.

 

MSI answers how to downgrade your trade-in for a lower cost trade-in.
--------------------------------
Hi Scott,

If someone wants to downgrade to a lower spec model, it’s possible. The formula will work the opposite of upgrade. For example, if your base cost is $1400 and the downgrade model is $700 MSRP lower, simply $1400-$700= $700 for a downgrade model.

I just recently responded to a customer that had a 980m SLI model and his trade-in cost for similar spec is $1400 for the new 1070 SLI laptop. But he asks to downgrade to a single 1080 GPU model, which is $700 cheaper in both model MSRP differences. So his downgrade cost will be $700.

If we made a chart with MSRP, we have so many different models that it would confuse everyone. It’s best to let us do the calculation as we know how to handle it.
--------------------------------
Edit: fixed "typo" - changed 970m to 980m, asking for clarification.
Update: confirmed, the example was supposed to be a 980m