MS16F2 along GTX580M (dell, rev3)

So -=$tR|k3r=-, you upgrade your 099US with a 580m from MSI and your getting bad performance with your gpu?

Basically, we have the same motherboard, I'm using the Clevo as Pau1ow mentioned.

So unless there's an alternate power adapter, were done pushing these laptops much further. Glad to hear the power adapter didn't completely die on you. Not like we can unlock the bios, get an xm chip and overclock anyways.

 

tony is using Clevo, 5482741 is using MSI, I am using Dell/Alienware GTX580M so so far I think we got everything covered.

 

I should not need ThrottleStop...... that's the point. I could swap to the barebones MS 1761 MB, but then I'd have a barebones unit, losing some branded GT780 function (TDE, MSI NV OC tool). Again, it's like something proprietary is going on here.

That's really all I need discuss of this right now, as my suspicions may be premature. More testing to do.... I'll figure it out!

 

let us know if you find anything interesting....

Curious if the 1761 motherboards can handle more than the 16F2 or if the performance is the same...we've been neck and neck so far.

 

Have you used MSI Afterburner to check what your actual clocks are? The graph in MSI Afterburner shows the actual clock.

Even if 620/1240 is reported by other software for the core/shader, the clocks may actually be locked at 575/1150.

NVIDIA Inspector unlocks them.

 

He has the turbo boost feature so he can unlock the clocks whenever he wants just by pressing the turbo button, which is something we don't have with our barebone.

@tony your GT780 has the same motherboard than the Barebone 1761 (17.3") so it should handle the 580M as well as yours

The MSI 16F2 is only the 15.6" barebone, very similar to GT680/683/685

 

Again, it's like MSI is using some sort of HW code to prevent upgrading the GT780, to essentially a GT783. Yes, I have the same MB as tonyjanderson1, but not the same 580M. I am using the MSI 580M, which I understand is manufactured wholly by Nvidia, and sent direct from them to MSI. My belief is it will require a GT783 MB for this 580M to perform at spec. Right now, at stock clocks, it benches like a 570M..... and on the low end at that..... only 11100 Vantage and 12000 with TDE on. It's not a problem with the card, unlocking clocks, vbios, etc..... seems proprietary, like some difference in the MB's, and I am betting an appropriate MB will open the 580M's stock performance to normal levels. In other words, the way it looks right now, a simple GPU swap, does not a GT783 make. There is more going on here.

 

I'm going to chime in here because it sounds like I'm reading exactly what I am experiencing....

I purchased and configured a custom built barebones MS-16F2 last week with a 580m. To say the least it is underwhelming. Like Striker, it performs like a 570m. I had a faulty AC Adapter to start with, so I was hoping that was all it was. It turns out that is not the case.

I can't push this card to any degree. It behaves like a 570m no matter what I do. I have access to a M17x R3 at work that has a 580m. While it will not run for prolonged periods with a GPU overclock because of the 78/79c thermal shutdown, I can clock that card to the moon and it runs without issue.

I don't know what to make of it at this point.

 

I may be wrong, but that sounds like what I experienced in this post:

Overclocking with Afterburner and nVIDIA System Tools had no effect. No matter how high I took the clocks (810/1620/1950), it benchmarked like the 570M. GPU-Z, nVIDIA System Tools, HWINFO, and MSI Afterburner's main window all reported the same high clocks.

Even 3DMark Vantage reported the wrong clocks while giving me virtually the same score -

620/1500:
Generic VGA video card benchmark result - Intel Core i5-2430M Processor,Micro-Star International Co., Ltd. MS-16F2 score: P11043 3DMarks

670/1650:
Generic VGA video card benchmark result - Intel Core i5-2430M Processor,Micro-Star International Co., Ltd. MS-16F2 score: P11269 3DMarks

820/1950:
Generic VGA video card benchmark result - Intel Core i5-2430M Processor,Micro-Star International Co., Ltd. MS-16F2 score: P11453 3DMarks


It wasn't until I noticed that the clocks displayed in MSI Afterburner's graph went no higher than 575/1150, that I realized I wasn't actually running at "stock" clocks. I couldn't underclock it below 575/1150 either. Then I used nVIDIA inspector to change the P0/P1 clocks and all of a sudden, I was able to actually change the clocks in the other programs.


Sorry if this is something completely different.

 

What's happening is which P state you are using.

Stock you are running P1 clocks, while all the programs are designed to target P0. When you opened Nvidia inspector your notebook switches to using P0 (turbo) and now when you change the clocks using other programs it takes effect because you are now using the P state they point to.

 

I hear what you are saying. With a normal retail MSI 683/780/783, the nVidia Overclock utility is what allows for the P0 state to kick in, I believe. Without it, it will stay in the P1 state, with identical clocks to the 570m.

Edit: Nevermind. After further testing, it's still unstable as all hell.

 

Maybe its giving you the couple of watts overhead you need.

You can use nvidia inspector to force it into using P0 clocks.

 

Yep it really looks like your MSI 580M are staying in the P1 state (575/linked/1500 = 485M clocks) while you really want to be in P0 state (620/linked/1500). NVinspector shows you the 4 entries and allows you to o/c each state so give it a try !
And use throttlestop along

 

what about using svet tool to brute force change the clocks on all the P states?

 

Very true.

Dragon please don't post your no tess 3dmark11 score I also hit 4.6K with that and in fairness disabling it in game might actually give you some extra fps

 

LOL my 6990m also hits 4.6k+ when playing with catalyst

 

Guys,

So far I have been playing BF3 yesterday with my 1st overclock (740/1700, 0.87v) and I can tell you it's smoother than my 6990M (820/1150). The game is much faster it seems, can't explain why even though the FPS look approx. in the same range (higher peak fps with 580M, perhaps slight higher average) but the game is smooth like hell.

And temps are pretty amazing while playing BF3, check that:
740/1700
Max CPU temps: 81°C
Max GPU temps: 77°C

Now since the overvolting, I got +2°C temps increased, whatever the clocks (default, o/c) and up to +5°C with high o/c (from 800+core) but it stays below 83°C still

 

Paul, Sounds like the 580m is a proper beasty card, I will keep you posted on my modified dell 230watt adaptor and if it makes any difference.

 

Agreed, it appears this way, but in my case, it should be performing as a GT783. Stock clocks should be normal ( as such), a P0 state, TDE should function normally, and I should not need ThrottleStop or any other third party program to achieve GT783 performance, right? With my 580M (10DE-1211, MSI 1462), essentially I have a GT783 sitting here before me..... what is the deal?

I gotta be missing something here...... Derrrrrrrrrr........ LOL!

(Watch, it will be something so simple, a caveman could have figured it out)

 

Been doing some testing today:
Playing @ 760/1800 and 800/1700 with 0.92v in Battlefield 3:

So temps have risen to 83°C maximum instead of 77°C using 740/1700 clocks and 0.87v default voltage.
Both clocks setups have been fine, however I am a bit scared to try 800/1800 as while I was playing, I monitored power through the powermeter and average consumption was 185W from the wall, up to 200W.
I have to consider that the adapter has an efficiency itself which should be about 0.8-0.9 but I am not 100% sure I have some room.

Forgot to mention also is that I ran a Vantage fine with 825/1800 but when I tried 840/1800, the power supply went out due to the overload protection.
So far, the 180W adapter should be enough for the non crazy overclockers !

 

Hello everyone I have just purchased an msi barebones 17" with the 580m. Pretty disappointed to learn that these systems are running like the 570m. I'm still waiting for delivery so I can't contribute anything useful at the moment, but I'm sure hoping someone can get to the bottom of it.. I'll certainly post some benchmarks when she arrives..

 

Hi mate, I'm very curious as your system is like mine, did this actually fix your problem? Are you getting better results now like the 580m should? Thanks

 

Again without turbo the system looks at P1, not P0.

Opening Nvidia inspector forces the machine to look at P0, then the other programs that just change P0 start to work.

You can create a clock shortcut (program closes after setting so it does not run in the background), slap it in your startup folder and you are good to go.

 

Yes, I created a startup shortcut to the stock clocks as described above.

I also re-mapped the webcam button to activate an overclocking profile.

 

Thanks for the replies gents. So am I correct in saying that the MSI BIOS in the barebones 17" is underclocking the 580m to 570m clocks? I wonder if someone could get hold of the new GT783 BIOS and flash it to the 780/barebones. I'm new to these laptops and again haven't even taken delivery of mine yet so please forgive me if I'm missing something.

 

I do not advise to flash the GT783 bios to the GT780/1761's as apparently some modifications has been made between those 2 to handle the 580M power (MOBO, hardware etc..)

Maybe Ken or Rob could confirm that

 

The 570M is the same, non turbo clocks are lower than stock.

Even at 570m clocks you have more shaders and bandwidth.

 

Replaced the 1mm with the .5mm, temps did drop some

On the msi website, the 780 and the 783 show the same 1761 30e bios 1.78 mb, makes me wonder if there really is any difference, sounds like the same motherboard.

 

I believe the MOBO is different for GTX570M/GTX580M.

The first screenshot was tested with 16F2 that originally came with 580M. the 2nd screenshot was tested with GT783-625US.

Both unit with TDE off and they have similar score, the 580M on the barebone performs the way it suppose to be not like 570M.

System BIOS for 570M and 580M are the same. I can flash the system BIOS from 570M unit to 580M unit and it won't affect performance.

 

Yes, both MB's are using the same bios, but everything I am seeing thusfar, would indicate there is indeed some difference between the GT780 and GT783 MB's. As I stated in my earlier post, "seems proprietary, like some difference in the MB's, and I am betting an appropriate MB will open the 580M's stock performance to normal levels. In other words, the way it looks right now, a simple GPU (MSI 580M) swap, does not a GT783 make."

 

Another update on MS16F2, the MSI Afterburner actually worked. I can't enable TDE since it's missing the button however, I have NV OC Tool installed and running in the backgound.

Then I use MSI Afterburner to set to the same clock to 723-1446-1718 as on the GT783 I was testing few weeks ago. Again, I got the same result for both MS16F2 barebone with GTX580M and GT783-625US. The first screenshot was tested on MS16F2, the 2nd screenshot was on GT783-625US:

 

Mystery solved, the mainboard for GTX570M and GTX580M are indeed different. MSI has to modified the mainboard in order to run GTX580M.

Found this information on Taiwanese forum:

相信不少人在等GTX580M的顯示卡
這邊要給大家一個失望的消息了
微星的GT660/GX660/GT663/GT680/GT683/GT683DX/GT780/GT780DX
確定都沒有辦法直接上卡王GTX580M
就我了解原廠GT783和GT685搭配GTX580M
在主機板方面是有修改過的
其中GT680/GT683/GT683DX/GT780/GT780DX可以用跳線的方式修改
(不裝GTX580M也可以讓原本的卡可以超的更高
不過主機板改過了就等於是放棄了原廠的保固了
因此我這邊就不公開改主機板的方式了
萬一改不好把主機板給改掛了可挺麻煩的

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True, they might have made some big changes between motherboards or they might not have. Any chance Ken that we could get a screen shot of the hwinfo64 showing the motherboard, bios, etc. just for curiousity sake?

My laptop is performing on par with the 783 and as much extra as I put in it, not like i'm going to turn around and sell it or try to find a 783 motherboard (already went overboard as it is). Although I still like that 240 power adapter the alienware has....

Usually when I think of motherboards, I think of the northbridge and southbridge chip sets (sandy bridge and h67). Now, I can see where the 580 and 570 board that is used to make the two video cards are different, I agree with that but i'm still thick headed and it's hard to imagine that they changed the motherboard. Also, if the motherboard from the GT780 was not meant to work with the GTX 580m, we whom did it anyways, it would not work....

 

I think MSI didn't modified the mainboard to prevent GTX560/GTX570M to upgrade to GTX580M. In fact, I think they modified because they found it it's needed in order to use GtX580M.

And here is the HWinfo32 screenshot:

 

Was looking for a screenshot of the hwinfo of the 783 to compare against my 780.

So far, I have yet to have an issue running the 580 on my 780, what we did have a problem with was the cpu throttling, not the gpu

Here is the result from my 570m with 2820qm

NVIDIA GeForce GTX 570M video card benchmark result - Intel Core i7-2820QM Processor,Micro-Star International Co., Ltd. MS-1761 score: P11209 3DMarks

Here is the result from my 580m with 2820qm

Generic VGA video card benchmark result - Intel Core i7-2820QM Processor,Micro-Star International Co., Ltd. MS-1761 score: P12308 3DMarks

The gpu score with the 580m was of course higher but the cpu throttled.

After using throttle stop, the cpu opened up and the scores hit normal.

Maybe these are the changes in the motherboard that you mention that stop cpu throttling....having a hard time wrapping my head around that.

 

I think the point was 'using an MSI 580M'..... not gonna happen. You are using a Clevo card, and having to use throttlestop, right? ThrottleStop is not necessary in the GT783, and it seems like MSI has done something to prevent simply installing the MSI 580M in a GT780, thereby replicating a GT783. I could install the Clevo card as well, but with the MSI card.... nope, it's lame! They have done something different in the GT783 MB. I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this too, LOL!

 

So we have two people with bare bone or GT780 like mine that tries to use a GTX580m from MSI or made for MSI, those won't work on a GT780.

Theres got to be something were missing...

Was the MS16F2 meant to use or sell retail with the 580m from msi/made for msi?

 

The modification MSI done on the mainboard is to the MXM slot so it can provide extra power via MXM to the GTX580M.

 

You're definitely right, some modifications has been done and it seems only Throttlestop can "unlock" the lack of power to handle both i7 and 580M in msi gt or barebones.
Very interesting though.

 

Interesting read ref the 580m, I am running a GT780DX I have a 6990m in situ and run a 230w ac adaptor and I have to also run throttlestop due to CPU throttling. Anyone actual got a GT783 mobo out of the laptop so we can have some high res pic's of both sides of the mobo and then if someone has a GT780 mobo the same pic's so we can see what if any visual differences.

Other than bios versions I can't see any difference's so far

 

Nice find Ken!

 

You can see physical differences in the power circuitry and there will be settings in that which the bios does not touch.

I noted some of these when the 683DX launched and I would not be surprised to see it again with the 685/783.

 

Thanks Ken for all the details, I have to say that If I lived in the US, I would definitely get a barebone from Gentech.

So if we want to conclude guys:
- New MSI 16F2 and GT783/GT683 have MOBO and BIOS mods to allow the full power of the 580M and so full performances.
- Anyone who wants to upgrade to GTX580m from any GT/GX or Barebones version can but they will have to use Throttlestop to "unlock" the power required to fully supply both CPU and GPU otherwise the CPU will throttle causing as well poor performances on the GPU (tested and agreed)

At this point, the 580M (Dell, Clevo, MSI) can be upgraded to any MSI and Barebones version as I have tested the Dell one in a MSI 16F2 (460M), tonyandjerson the Clevo 580M in a GT780 (570M) and 548721 the new MSI 16F2 which comes with the MSI 580M ! and all of us can report very bright performances from the card.

edit: I have a 220W adapter on the way as I can report over 195W average power (peak to 210W) from the wall (have to consider efficiency of the power supply ~0.8-0.9 so your laptop is getting less than that) while playing Battlefield 3 @ 800/1800 0,92V. The adapter seems to cope well as it is not really getting hot but I just want to make sure I am not lacking power.
Also, my adapter went on overload protection after running a 3dmarkVantage @ 840/1800 which may me think that the 180w will be fine to handle default voltage with top overclock (740/750) but if you want to play games with the 580m overvolted, the 220W might be helpful as long as the 16F2 MOBO can get the higher current.

In comparison, while I was playing BF3 with the 6990M @ 820/1150, my power peak never went above 185w from the mains.

 

Such a huge power difference between the 570M and 580M.

 

Meaker,

There's a gap between the 570M and 580M, first of all specs (shader, mem) then performances.

The thing I can see is that the 570M performs pretty well, I have been pretty amazed whereas at the start I said it was just a boost 560m lol. I think the 570M has now the best ratio quality/performance/price but 3dmarkVantage or 11 doesnt reflect the gap between the latter and the expensive 580M simply because of the resolution chosen; 1280x1024.

For pure gamers, the 580M is definitely a must have even though it consumes lot of power compared to a 570M but temps are under control unlike a 6990m for instance.

 

My 6990m temps are really good in fact pretty much the same as what you guys having been seeing with your 580m's and that's with it overclocked but it does not have the performance benchmarks of a 580m damm so wish i could overvolt the vbios.

 

I dont think you can beat my stock voltage gaming temps overclocked at 740/1700 = 77degrees

Same thing happened with my 460m when I overvolted it, temps rose significantly and even more with the 580M (up to 83 so +6 degrees C)

Anyway, the 6990M is a very good card, upgrading from 6990 to 580m would be a bit silly James :x

edit: I am trying so hard to prevent myself from buying HyperX ram as I know there's no difference at all with value 1333 but I will be able to overclock my 2720 a bit..

 

I was just surprised at the gap of power consumption. I see a max of 175W from the wall overclocked and running DX11 titles. A 35W difference!

If you'd like to do a OCed vs OCed high res comparison I would be up for that.

 

Oh yeah ! It would be interesting if:

a) we run same frequencies (for instance 575/1500 or 620/1500) for both cards
b) Then increase to 750/1800 for instance
c) and super overclocked them as 825/1900

We should run 3dmark11 (DX11) and Vantage (DX10) both Performance and Extreme then (I dont have a key though to unlock these settings)

Meanwhile, if we can measure the power consumption, it would be even greater !

 

Fair enough, I have vantage unlocked, but if you want to use games then I have metro 2033 and Dirt 3 installed atm.