Hello Chris,
Nvidia has manifested numerous times there's virtually no difference in terms of performance between the Kepler and Maxwell based versions of the 860M, but since the thread is about the different versions of the MSI GS60 Ghost (which as far as we know are based only on Kepler mobile parts), I thought that comparison would be more pertinent to the theme of the thread, but I'm interested in your statement, would you kindly point to comparisons between the two versions of 860M?
EDIT 2: I actually found a comparison between both versions using different architectures:
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Nvidia-GeForce-GTX-860M-Maxwell-vs-Kepler.114908.0.html
You're absolutely right, Maxwell 860M is 10% faster than the Kepler version, it seems Nvidia's claims to the contrary were not true, that's a sad state of affairs for owners of the Kepler based 860M, it runs slower and hotter than Maxwell![]()
Thanks for pointing that out, goes to show that you can't always believe the PR from the green team![]()
That score is from my GS60 Pro, it was a little OCd for that run, this is my score with no OC using Sen7inel's excellent VBIOS mod:
7312
As for temps, I used to get 91 degrees max before repasting my GPU with Gelid Extreme GC TIM, I play TESO and Titanfall heavily (3+ hrs) and after Sen7inel's VBIOS I'm yet to see my 870M break 85 degrees![]()
I hope that answers your questions![]()
EDIT: I haven't undervolted my CPU and I'm currently using the -75mV VBIOS Sen7inel posted for my GPU.
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Those results are excellent! I can't wait to get my hands on mine so I can start tweaking and report my findings. I'll be doing some videos too. Probably a strip down and repaste along with bios flashing, ram and CPU overclocking.
15th Warlock and Halaja like this. -
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chris_laptopfan Notebook Consultant
Here you are. There was an extensive comparison of the 860m kepler vs. maxwell on notebookcheck, where you can see, that except for 3dmark 11, the maxwell version always was a lil bit faster than the kepler version.
Review Nvidia GeForce GTX 860M Maxwell vs. Kepler - NotebookCheck.net Reviews
But to be honest, we tend to throw with percentages around us, but 10% is more or less nothing. In addition to that, even synthetic benchmarks have their measuring inaccuracies (let 3dmark run 10 times on your computer, you will get 10 different results). So overall nvidia's statement about them performing on the same level isn't false.
Please let me ask you a few things again:
Your score of 7312 still seems to be a bit above the average of yet posted results, which were between 6800 and 7000. This could be measuring inaccuracy again, but i wonder a lil bit about your relatively high score of over 7.3k though?
As for your temps: Do you think the repasting gave you benefits? Did you test your repasted gpu but without the vBios undervolt?
On most experiences reported here and GentechPC's repasting on the GS60 Pro with IC Diamond repasting doesn't seem to give actual benefits on the GS60...? That would void guarantee, woudn't it?
I think once you use the vbios you can't easily switch over to stock voltages back, can you?
It would be very interesting to see game benchmarks regarding fps and temps without gpu undervolt and with it for comparison.
Sen7inel showed the furmarks, but some real game benchmarks like the Tomb Raider benchmark or Metro LL would be very interesting.
But i assume this would need flashing the vbios again...?
Sorry for shooting so many questions on you
And thanks for sharing your experiences so far! :thumbsup: -
Thanks for your reply as well, I also found the same results while waiting for your answer as you can see in the second edit to my post above.
The score I posted was obtained after I flashed the VBIOS, as you mention, the default scores were closer to 7K than 7.3K out of the box, also the temps were higher before flashing as voltage is 75mV lower than the default voltage.
As for comparing IC Diamond to Gelid GC Extreme TIM, to be honest with you I dunno which one is more efficient, but I've used Gelid's TIM in all the rigs found in my sig bellow, with excellent results, in fact EK recommends that paste specifically when mounting their water blocks.
MSI will honor the warranty as long as you don't break any components while upgrading your laptop, upgrading the VBIOS though may be another story.
As for trying those games you mentioned, I haven't played TR, C3 or LL in months, I have them installed in my laptop as you can see here:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/msi/742589-msi-gs60-ghost-ghost-pro-thread-138.html#post9645797
I can try them tonight, I can tell you though that before flashing my card the UE4 Elemental demo at 1080p was the 3D app that pushed my GPU the hardest, taking it to 91 degrees, after flashing the temps dropped to 85 degrees when running it, like everything elsemskiller likes this. -
Can owners of the 3k display comment on windows desktop usage? Are you just running your desktop at 1080p or are using scaling? What level makes it legible?
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk -
It's been pretty well established since day one that the Kepler version will run hotter and perform slightly worse than the Maxwell 860m. The Maxwell can run 6300+ 3Dmark 11 running at 65C. Looking forward to the Maxwell version of 870m replacement.
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To be honest with you I do not understand the need to trash a perfectly fine and working laptop, if people currently have a Maxwell based 860M powered laptop, then the more power to them, I bet there are plenty of threads about those laptops, in the mean time, people like Sen7inel and others have proven the 870M based GS60 is a viable, high performance laptop, and most owners except for a select few are happy with the performance this laptop provides and don't feel the need to justify our purchase.
Same for the 860M based GS60, owners of those laptops are obviously happy with the thermals, performance and acoustics on said model, yes, the Maxwell powered 860M is better, but so will be the 960M powered model a year from now, or the 1K60 powered model in 2016, I honestly do not understand the point of this argument.
In the mean time lots of other owners feel happy to report their findings and help each other and actually contribute to the GS60 community in general. -
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Hmm why would performance increase after dropping the voltage? That seems a bit strange to me. But if that's the case, then I am definitely going to get a Ghost Pro! -
I'm thinking of going for - 50 with COOLABRATORY Ultra TIM and hopefully run at the1ghz. We'll see though. Main thing is to keep temps under 85c.Svegetto, 15th Warlock and chris_laptopfan like this. -
chris_laptopfan Notebook Consultant
Sorry for having let you wait. That's the problem with the different time zones and in germany it was late at night.
But i finally decided to write back before going to bed though to not letting you wait for too long
You're right. I remember your post with photos and different 3dmark 11 scores. First one was about ~6.8k i guess...?
So you got this slightly higher score of ~7.3k only with the vbios flash? Could that indicate, that out of the box there was a minimal throttling, therefore resulting in "only" 6.8k?
I noticed in Sen7inel's furmark screenshots very slightly lower fps in comparison to stock settings as well as your kombustor test in comparison to fdapp's stock GS70 Pro. Of course these are very very minimal and maybe just again measuring inaccuracies, but i was a bit surprised though, because i rather assumed lower fps on stock settings because of minimal throttling..?
So if you (and maybe other owners with the vbios mod as well?) don't mind, it would be very appreciated to see some real gaming comparisons between stock settings & voltage vs modded vBios with undervolt, both regarding temps and fps.
I would suggest built in benchmarks like in Tomb Raider, Metro LL or Thief because of best possible comparison.
Did you ask MSI about this specific case with repasting? I read many times, that MSI doesn't void your guarantee if you don't break something, but i was quite sure (and think it was mentioned in a gentech or xotic video review) this wouldn't apply on dismounting the motherboard, which is required for repasting or upgrading the RAM?
In germany there's a very attractive offer for the GS70 Pro but with 8 gb RAM. As i need the device foremost for intensive work i would want to upgrade to 16 gb RAM. If this wouldn't void the guarantee these would be very good news!
Lastly, no one has to justify his or her purchase.
We are all in the same boat (with the same or different laptops) and although i still dislike the concept of "slim + 870m" with driving into borderline temps, i VERY appreciate help, support, taking your time answering questions (like mine), sharing experiences from you guys!!!
You can be very happy with your incredible powerful that thin laptop!! I'm a bit jealous though...15th Warlock likes this. -
chris_laptopfan Notebook Consultant
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15th Warlock likes this.
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As a side note, I did order that 2133 memory (G Skill) I'm hoping I'll have time Thursday to install it. A little worried as I'll be out of town when the delivery is scheduled to come and with how windy it has been here I don't like the idea of it sitting in front of my door.
Hoping to flash the vBIOS later today.15th Warlock likes this. -
omg cant wait for a review of this machine
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Hey guys I've had my GS60 for a month now (860M) and I've just noticed that the Dragon Gaming Center is no longer giving me the fan speeds or even the CPU temps. It just reads N/A. I know the GPU temps didn't used to display unless the discrete GPU was in use but I have always had readings for CPU temps and fan speeds. Restarting doesn't help and the other readings from the Gaming Center seem fine such as wireless speed, etc... any thoughts on how I can fix this?
edit: fixed by repairing installation. Still not sure what borked it in the first place tho. Perhaps running MSI live update 5 was a mistake. -
Just out of curiosity, has anyone tried overclocking the display refresh rate in NVCP?
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Looking forward to hearing about your results. -
So as a follow up to playing with XTU and as of today applying @Sen7inel's vBIOS -75mV GPU flash here are some benchmark results:
Final Fantasy XIV Benchmark Scores:
High (Laptop) 9526
CPU Max 82 (Core) 80 (Package) @ 52.99 W
GPU Max 93
High (Desktop) 7362
CPU Max 79 (Core) 79 (Package) @ 52.86W
GPU Max 94
High (Desktop) 7699 CPU: -100mV, 35 34 33 33
CPU Max 73 (Core) 73 (Package) @ 47.93W
GPU Max 91
High (Desktop) 7712 CPU: -100mV, 35 34 33 33 GPU: -75mV
CPU Max 74 (Core) 75 (Package) @ 49.73W
GPU Max 86
3DMark11 Benchmark Scores:
P6927 .978V @ -85, 46.78W, 37.43W @ 81, 80
P6946 .968V @ -100, 48.67W, 36.29W @ 80, 80
P6955 .993V @ -100, 48.68W, 39.20W, 83, 83 OCed 36 34 33 33
P6962 1.017V @ -100, 52.41W, 42.97W, 87, 86 OCed 36 35 34 34
P6996 @ -50mV
P6998 .993V @ -100, 49.23, 39.17W @ 82, 82 OCed 35 34 33 33
P7028 1.066V @ 0, 53.31W, 44.19W @ 85 Core, 86 Package
P7047 1.007V @ -85, 50.28W, 44.81W @ 83, 84 OCed 35 34 33 33
P7285 CPU: .993V @ -100mV, 49.04W, 39.55W, 83, 82 OCed 35 34 33 33 GPU: -75mV 86 Degrees
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 870M video card benchmark result - Intel Core i7-4700HQ,Micro-Star International Co., Ltd. MS-16H2
Thank you so much Sen7inal for your vBIOS work and instructions!Amal77 and 15th Warlock like this. -
*Duplicate Post*
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chris_laptopfan Notebook Consultant
But to be honest i have a hard time understanding the many different numbers
Most interesting to me were the gpu temps, though.
I was really surprised by the very high gpu temps in the 90s, so i hope these benchmarks were done without the undervolt vBios??
What gpu temps do you get with the gpu undervolt?15th Warlock likes this. -
Yeah I did a pretty poor job of listing the GPU temps as most of my testing was around the CPU. But on most of the tests the GPU was 90 - 93 degrees celsius and the final test listed is with the undervolt vBIOS and the max GPU temp was 86.
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So does anyone else' power light flash from Orange (NV) to Blue (Intel) constantly? I've set Optimus to use the IGP as standard and force NV only when I am gaming, but I am still constantly switching between IGP/NV even when doing something as mundane as web browsing (on pages without flash I might add). Anyone else experiencing this?
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Been away a few days, seems the Sen7inel vBIOS fan club is in full force here ha.... glad it is helping!
What it does show to me at least is what we all knew all along: the 870m stock is too hot for this chassis and throttles. That's exactly why you get 300+ more points in 3DMark11 using his vBIOS than the stock settings; his is allowing/forcing full clocks taking advantage of the undervolt; stock is throttling to keep temps under control. These are brand new dust free machines; extend the timeline out and those temps will only get hotter with dust buildup and thermal compound degradation, leading to further throttling. That's not even taking into account that all GPU's don't respond the same to undervolting, just like overclocking... some are fantastic, others barely run at anything other than stock settings, so truly not a one size fits all.
This is great, except I'm not going to install a modified vBIOS with limited testing on my brand new machine that will brick the machine if it fails, and if MSI finds out during a warranty claim, I'm SOL. Nothing personal Sen7inel at all meant by this, we always appreciate stuff like this, but it's not for the average end user; no matter how you look at it, this is a fix/tweak for enthusiasts willing to eat the price of repair if needed.
By comparison, with an easy small +45mhz core GPU software overclock, the GS60 860m will hit ~5700 in 3DMark11 while keeping temps in the low-mid 70C's (Typically 74C).
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 860M video card benchmark result - Intel Core i7-4700HQ,Micro-Star International Co., Ltd. MS-16H2
Having said that, I don't even bother overclocking for gaming as there is no need, I was just curious what a 5% overclock would do.
Well, apologize for the long post, and seriously, love all the info available here and have tried to contribute along the way myself... I've enjoyed this community for years figuring out how to fine tune performance. But, there's a lot of info being thrown around in this thread at a very fast pace. My advice to those that are still reading and haven't purchased anything yet: buy the machine that you are happy with bone stock out of the box, both in performance and temps without worrying about the benchmarking game us enthusiasts like to play. There's a good chance you can if you want and are willing to accept some risk improve performance/temps on all accounts on any machine, but nothing is guaranteed.
For me, I went with the 860m as it is the cooler choice and plenty fast for my needs and every game available (I'm selling my GT60 when I finally find time to post an ad on ebay or here that gets 9000+ in 3DMark11, I just simply don't need the excess performance, but yes I know how a decently fast machine games).
The 870m is a great choice for those that need/want the extra performance, I just personally didn't want to have to tinker and maintain a fickle thoroughbred this go around.
Bottom line I'd totally buy the GS60 again, great new line from MSI, looking forward to see future developments.... just imagine when the next generation Maxwell based options are available!:thumbsup:somemale, Sefiror and clickclack169 like this. -
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Very happy with my GS60-052 right and am ready to *attempt* the vBios flash.
Before I take the plunge can someone post the links or steps to take again?
Also are there any GPU/CPU vBios released yet in one save/mod? -
Hello,
Is this ram is compatible with the laptop HyperX 16GB (2 x 8GB) 204-Pin DDR3 SO-DIMM DDR3 1866 HyperX?
Thank you in advance. -
Is there anyone who did actually brick the GS60 pro with the Sen7inel vBIOS? -
chris_laptopfan Notebook Consultant
Hi be77solo.
You're right with the chip quality. It's a bit a game of luck...
Still think that's not my job and in my opinion a laptop has to work properly out of the box with providing it's full unlimited performance with a normal, healthy thermal headroom.
Although i appreciate the support and mods offered in these forums very much, i'm not convinced of the concept '870m + thin' without sufficient cooling out of the box.
I'm struggling on my decision as i could get the MSI GS70 in germany for incredible low 1300 € (while the GS60 is at least 300 € more expensive. Does anyone here has an valid explaination for that?) but it's is only acceptable for me, if the undervolting works for me as well with gpu temps of max 85°C.
I would like to buy it, flash the vBios and test it out. If it wouldn't work for whatever reason, i would return it.
But i'm a bit scared, if something goes wrong with the vBios flash and would damage the computer or not letting it start again
This would be a freakin problem!!
Normally there shouldn't be a problem i assume, but i'm not experienced in those things...
And you really can be! The 860m is undoubtly a pretty powerful gpu in that thin laptop! Nothing more to say. Unfortunately in germany a 860m GS60 is similar in price as the GS70 870m. Therefore you can understand my struggle for sure?
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@chris_laptopfan
Even if you consider that the 870m may throttle in certain applications / games, it still outperforms the 860m by a good margin while throttling. I primarily play Guild Wars 2 and BF4, and the 870m has never throttled for me in those games so it was well worth the money (for me). When I purchased my GS60, it was only a $100 USD premium to get the 870m. That $100 is well worth the additional performance now and in the future.
Until someone has both of these laptops in hand and can compare them without bias, it is all conjecture with each person justifying the purchase they personally made (such as this post). It just seems to be that the people who purchased the 860m are being more vocal about justifying what they bought.Tyresian likes this. -
Hi ,
Is there any vbios for the GS60 ghost pro ? i flash the one for the GTX870m , with minus 50mv , but i search a bios to undervolt the cpu , and i think that i look one , but i can't refind it .... -
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chris_laptopfan Notebook Consultant
Especially in BF4 i'm a lil bit surprised that your device doesn't hit temps where the chip begins throttling? Did you measure your temps while gaming?
Yes, with a difference of 100$ this is a very attractive offer and i understand your decision very wellSo hard is mine, as i wrote in my previous post, with the GS70 Pro (870m) being at around same price levels as the GS60 non Pro (860m).
The GS60 Pro in germany is in contrast to USA significantly more expensive than the GS70 Pro. For whatever reason...
Of course it's just a fact that the Pro versions are operating way more at the thermal limits than the non pro versions.
Just wanted to point out, that be77solo nevertheless can be very satisfied with his purchase, as the non pro also is a great laptop. -
The lap desk does keep the laptop's fan outlets from being obstructed which probably helps with what I consider very acceptable results. In BF4, my temps seemed to max out around 88C after three hours of gaming. The GPU clock speed graph didn't seem to show any drops that would indicate throttling. This is with the stock thermal paste. It is quite noisy though! -
chris_laptopfan Notebook Consultant
Did you try on a normal desk, couch table, plane surface whatsoever? Same temps?
Yeah, if it doesn't hit nvidia's threshold at 92-93 °C (?) then you have no throttling at all. Glad you like your GS60
The fan noise also is a important point for me. You still find it acceptable without headset or only with the use of a headset? (I'm not a gamer, but sometimes would like to play, but therefore don't wanna be forced on headphones just to get acceptable fan noise levels). -
When I play games on the laptop, I don't usually use headphones or the speakers because I am in the living room or family room with the wife watching TV / Movies. I usually just hop on for an hour or so to do some crafting or run some dailies. The fan noise is certainly noticeable, but the wife has not wanted to throw it out the window yet. So I guess that is a win. -
OrangeCoffeeMug Notebook Consultant
Here is a weird question for you guys... how about this.. I'd like to use my laptop outside some times, not for gaming but for other stuff, watching movies or doing online tutorials. Would the ghost pro have problems running outside on a summer day with the sun hitting it and the outside temperature is like 80-90? Would those conditions push it too far? temp wise?
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Okay, guys, I need your help again. You'll probably think I'm crazy, and you're probably right
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So I returned my GS60 pro to the store today, with a heavy heart, and they actually took it back, so no harm done.
But right now I'm really starting to miss it. I have gotten used to the trackpad (well, kinda), and I found out that I can reprogam the '# key to function as an additional enter ( so I don't miss as often). With a heavy heart, I still decided to return it to the store, since the fan noise under load was something I don't see myself getting used to.
When I played through the intro of Dragon Age 2 last night I could hardly understand what the characters were saying. Action scenes posed no problem but as soon as the game itself became quiet, emotional or peaceful, the excessive fan noise just ruined it all. I tried using headphones (the white ones that came with my iPod, since I don't own a gaming headset), but I could still hear the fans blowing. Anyway, I don't want to be forced to play with headphones all the time.
Then I decided to try The Raven (a point and click adventure), which ran on integrated graphics. It looked so beautiful and was so much fun to play, even the trackpad could not take away from the experience.
I was that close to keeping the laptop but then it dawned on me how stupid it is to buy a GTX 870M only to prefer using the integrated GPU.
To make a long story short: I was wondering if the non pro version had somewhat less fan noise under load and might be an alternative. I don't expect it to be silent but just a little quieter, maybe 4-5 dB less. I took a measurement from the front edge of the base unit and got about 48-50 dB in a normal living room environment.
I would appreciate it a lot if any owner of the non pro version could do something similar and tell me the results. -
can I adjust a fan speed to 20% in quite mode in fan profile av Pherien or is 44% minimum?
when I tryed it jumps from 0 to 3300 rmp all the time -
OrangeCoffeeMug Notebook Consultant
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcFPrExa6Es
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bVyNHxk9HE
the regular gs60 is about 10 db less than the ghost pro at load...
I'm not sure how much that translates to real world hearing of the sound but... the non pro deff looks less loud then the pro. might be worth giving a shot if you can just return it again. -
OrangeCoffeeMug Notebook Consultant
@teddygirl
how as the fan noise to you when you werent gaming and just like searching the web? was it loud to you? I'm trying to decide that before actually buying the laptop. One guy a few pages ago said that its not loud at all and that youd only hear it in like a library or a very quiet area. Think thats true? -
The surfing the web noise was acceptable. Not perfect, but not any louder than my current Asus.
When the radio is on or the windows are open, I hardly even hear it -
I've the i5, gtx860m version:
At the moment I am using Fan Control by Pherein, decreased the fan speed to 43% (42% is not working, the fan starts jumping). The silent profile turns the fan completely off until the cpu reaches 60°C (over 60°C the fan jumps for just a few seconds, until temperature is lower than 60°C again, frequency depends on tasks - office maybe all 5-10min, browsing all 5min, watching videos on youtube all 3min - however it depends!!!)
The Quiet Profile is quiet good, the fan is running silent, but you can hear it in a quiet room when you are standing about 10m away. Nevertheless this is so much better than with factory settings!!!
Another question, did anyone a clean Windows 8.1 installation? What I have to consider, are there problems with drivers or programs or even with the key and the win8.1 iso-file? What do I need?
I have already the key (Win8.1 Product Key Viewer), all the drivers from the msi website and a win8.1 iso-file. There are so many drivers on the msi website, it is just confusing, do I really need all of them? (3 times wireless lan...)
Thanks
edit:
CPU Temps in idle with the Quiet Profile without doing anything 36-38°C, Browsing 39-42°C, Day of Defeat Source (max, 1080p) 59-61°C
Start Phereins Fan Control with the Autostart! -
OrangeCoffeeMug Notebook Consultant
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OrangeCoffeeMug Notebook Consultant
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Temps should be a bit lower in the non-pro version, right?
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Im thinking about buying the Ghost with the 870M sometime in the next ~2months from XoticPC so Im following this thread closely.
For now I only have a few questions regarding the custom order from XoticPC and it would be nice if someone with experiecen gave his opinion.
(money doesnt really come into play in these questions)
1- Is IC diamond paste a nice thing to add? If I dont repast it, will it give me problems?
2- Clean installation with no bloatware is nice or would I be losing out on some nice software that comes with msi laptops?
MSI GS60 Ghost/ Ghost Pro Thread
Discussion in 'MSI' started by GreaseMonkey90, Jan 14, 2014.