BGA Venting Thread ;)

But it is okay, it is made for cheaper or lower powered notebooks that are supposed to compete with chromebooks. Foobar - the main reason mane people would get a cheap notebook, doesn't seem to exist on Windows play store... This is the main software for music listening used by a ton of people... PDN (paint dot net) isn't there either. What is exactly in there? Edge? This means that it is made for using a laptop with windows edge? That wouldn't be even half bad IF you could connect edge with a google account to sync favorites, preferences and history.

 

I'd say the main reason people get a cheap notebook isn't going to be the available programs. Your cheap notebook customer typically has the following priorities: Low entry cost > can browse the web > can do word processing > everything else. They seem more likely to use streaming services than locally stored media and Edge doesn't stop you using web services, just applications.

 

I don't specialise in thermal engineering; I haven't even gotten a degree yet. What I've said is what I learnt in my equivalent of American middle and high school physics: if you want effective heat dissipation, you need surface area, it's fairly simple.

 

If you're pointing this out you appear to have misunderstood the original post. That or the pompous attitude is likely why no one responded.

 

No that much BGA related, but still funny!

 

That's me when I overhear someone talking about about computers or good music in the office.

 

I never really expected anyone to respond, to be honest, given the circle jerk that is going on. If you call me pompous, then is it fair if I call the company here rude, crass, childish and plain uninformed?

Micro$haft, Redmond Mafia, Ngreedia, Shintel, Windoze OS X crApple, what else? BGA jokebooks, turdbooks, crapbooks, slaughtering rampage, trash, etc.

Calling an object, or a place, or a certain group of people names is seriously the most childish thing I've ever seen. Directly and openly attack the idea and the values that they promote: like dissemination and commercialisation of private consumer data, loss of user control over purchased consumer devices, overpricing hardware merely based on brand name; reducing productivity by implementing unethical, inconvenient software, destroying the environment by promoting disposable, or difficult-to-repair, locked-down hardware; and marketing them like they're the best thing that ever happened to humanity since sex.

Technical accuracy isn't valued here, but ranting is.

 

I think those sentiments are safe to consider mutual, and since neither side cares what the other thinks we can expect more of the same.

The idiots (referring to the list of companies you mentioned) that promote their own flavor of of stupidity deserve to be attacked, maligned and ridiculed for their incompetence and for producing defective merchandise. Their beatings will continue until morale improves or they die, whichever comes first.

The idea is to build a caustic culture of hatred and vitriol for those companies, their brands, and the pathetic garbage that they have the nerve sell. It takes time, but a dripping faucet does erode porcelain and will begin to rust out the sink. And, it seems to be working. I see a slowly growing number of people adopting the hate speech and becoming more belligerent in their contempt for them, so I'm good with the way things are headed in that regard. As far as the people buying the garbage being stupid, all I can say is, "if the shoe fits" guilt needs no accuser. They should get out of our way if they don't want to get dirty. There is a lot more mud left to sling, and when we run out of mud we have rocks and sticks.

 

Here we go again, avoiding the real technicalities. Instead of debating how we can fit components onto a unified form factor for GPUs instead of the clusterf*** we have today, or how we can devise a viable alternative instead of directly plonking desktop components in laptops, or something along those lines, we are arguing—rather shallowly, I might add—about semantics and names and whatnot.

Stupidity, incompetence? What? Tell me, you think the companies and people who invented, designed, (in some cases) produce, continue to improve the very products that you use so frequently (and still rant about) are unintelligent? Then what are you and I, mere users? Can anyone here safely say that they've written C kernels, developed an OS, or even part of an OS, or designed circuits for CPUs, GPUs, or simpler still, designed a chassis and thermal hardware for those CPUs anf GPUs? And if those products don't work for us, we simply dismiss them as being 'defective'? Sure, some products are an outright rip-off, or are truly badly designed, or there was a manufacturing defect. But to dismiss an entire industry worth billions is folly.

You've got mud, rocks and sticks; they've got money— plenty of it—and some of that money is yours. You've got two notebooks running a total of two Intel CPUs, three nVidia GPUs, and each is running a (I assume) valid, paid-for copy of Windows 10, by Microsoft. That's already a couple of grand in their banks, and that's from what you currently have. How much else have you and others here given to them with the rest of your past purchases, all (or most) presumably toting Intel and nVidia hardware, and Microsoft software? Several hundreds of thousands of grand, perhaps? Possibly a million, a few million dollars from NBR users alone? When they've already got your money, what's stopping them from not bothering about the consumer, and being profit-oriented? If you really hated them, wanted to see them drown, you'd have brought open competition to them by starting a company of your own, or you would've purchased from competing companies. I don't see a "Mr. Fox Inc." yet, though. I also don't see you buying AMD Ryzen nor Vega, or moving to Linux, or something like that. Why not?

If you buy something from a company, use it daily, profit from it, and still rant so much... I see no sense. Once again— I am not against your opinion that BGA is bad. It is bad. But the way you go about trying to fix it is going to change nothing, I guarantee you that. You will continue to purchase from very companies you are after, and they will still profit, which is all that matters, in the end. If you've got enough money, you can stop or start a war.

 

Have you heard of the concept of "don't bite the hand that feeds"? There aren't exactly alternatives, nor do you seem even remotely interested in contributing anything useful to said alternatives. I'm honestly surprised you're not a full-time Linux user since there's real potential there on the software side of things. After all the rhetoric about Microsoft and Windows, Linux is a no go?

What about AMD? There's other players out there like Qualcomm.

A veritable drop in the ocean.

Now that's just funny.

Please tell me about how you intend to stick it to several multi-billion dollar companies when you present no alternatives of you own

 

I like gaming, I like heavy performance in everything! Let's all be friends and try to keep the strong laptops alive!

 

BGA or LGA for notebooks.... Does it even matter when the technology within the hardware is endlessly evolving? No matter how powerful it is, a notebook will hardly ever survive more than 5 years and not be called obsolete. What will happen just after is the owner wanting to buy something completely new. Is it even guaranteed future LGA CPUs and MXM GPUs will fit in the, say, ancient MOBOs? Definitely not, so what's really the use of removable parts (excluding desktops) if they won't be replacable within few years?
A similar logic can be applied to LGA turdbooks. How many years would one need to feel the need to replace the CPU/GPU? Say 2 years, okay. But given the build quality seen in those "gaming" notebooks (which is far from excellent since it cincentrates on performance), how many CPU replacements will the chassis sustain before it totally wears out? I can guarantee you the entire notebook will look as if it survived a WW3 in 5 years. And what do you all care about? "CPU and GPU are up to date, who cares about a broken chassis? Hurr durr"
I'm not bashing this entire "BGA filth" discussion, I think it's totally understandable, provided the majority here are enthusiasts. BGA is a disgrace to enthusiasts, but totally okay for those whose usual purchase cycle is no more than 5 years.

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It's one of those things that doesn't affect most people directly and so if they hear about it in high school they've usually forgotten it by next semester. Since it doesn't really affect most peoples' day it doesn't surprise me that it's not just something everyone here knows. Not saying that's a good thing or anything, but that's the way it is. I have to explain it to a lot of people.

 

If there were a generic laptop motherboard format like in desktops (something like "L-ATX") and you could keep upgrading that, it would solve some of the problem, but it would likely make high end laptops even more bulky/expensive than they already are.

 

We almost had a standard with the last MXM 3b. I don't see a standard being achieved until parties strike agreements for 'non-reference' (let's call it that for now) to be sold freely and competitively.
For that to happen we really need to see a sea-change in people demanding their laptops be upgradable first and stop thinking laptops need to all be large tablets with keyboards. There's other ways this could happen which would involve marketing the benefits of having an upgradable GPU. It sounds ridiculous but it's somehow not sexy to be able to upgrade a laptop... not the case with desktops though as many already know.
The GPU module would probably need to be something more physically accessible (Joe Blo user wise) than the current MXM solution to gain any traction. I really don't see why mutually specified size self contained low profile modular GPU with blower fans couldn't be a swappable part from the rear corners located on the base of machines.

I'm inclined to believe that various parties cashing in on licensing deals of Gsync, TB etc on new machine sales are likely the dominant force behind this not being achieved right now.

 

That's only partially true. Even if you are not an overclocking enthusiast, you have to be one that does not mind starting and ending that purchase cycle with inferior products that do not perform as well as their socketed desktop counterparts or the Extreme mobile CPUs from the good old days, and you have to be able to say that don't mind that things are a whole lot more expensive to repair if something goes wrong during that time span, but then yeah... nothing wrong with BGA if you're OK with those things.

 

Yeah, I agree with this as well.
BGA's biggest drawback is having to replace the entire mobo should anything soldered break.
I've been using an ACER laptop for 6 years, and it's got the socketed Sandy-Bridge i5-2430M. While I'm glad it is replacable (but only with the same CPU, there is no upgrade path even for the i7-2630QM), I've never had to do it, and the CPU is still working properly. Had the CPU ever fried during the laptop's lifespan and it was BGA, I'd have gone mad!

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Lenonvo tried the modular GPU thing a while back, and it didn't do so well. (Y series from a couple of years ago). Them probably not being the right company to do this first aside, it probably scared other companies off from offering similar things.

 

Hi bros! I'm new here and have read many hours on this forum and on notebookcheck trying to learn a bit about notebooks. I was very close to a decision on what to buy, it would have been a P650 or P670, and then I see this thread and I'm like "Furk there is more to take into account." I read the first few pages and the last few pages of this thread to get an idea but things are still complicated for me.

First of all one the first posts said that the CPUs on BGA laptops are badly binned or something like that. Can you explain what this means? And is this a fact that everyone knows or that we have proof of, or is it a speculation or a logical conclusion? If you consider it a mistake to get the 7700HQ say it clearly.

What happens when a CPU or GPU dies on a BGA laptop during the warranty? These are not supposed to be substituted by new components right? So do you get the same chassis with a new motherboard with a new CPU and a new GPU or do you get a completely new laptop?

I did two similar configurations with 16GB RAM and just one SSD, one for P750 with 7700K and GTX 1060, and one for P650 with 7700HQ and GTX 1060, and the P750 was about 400 euros more expensive. I also took a look at that thread with the sellers of MXM GPUs, they were very expensive and pretty rare, saw a price of $489 for 1060, 8 hundred something for 1070 and more than $1200 for 1080. I don't know how prices will be in 3 years but my thinking is this. Let's suppose the GPU on both the P650 and P670 die after 3 years, the person who bought the P670 will put another 1060 in there and go on but the person who bought the P650 will have about 900 euros more to spend on a new laptop while keeping RAM and SSD, is my logic correct? I didn't take into account the CPU obviously as I don't know how to value the difference between the 7700K and the 7700HQ. The standard warranty is 24 months, does anything change with a 36 month warranty that some resellers offer? I don't know what other advantages the P750 has over the P650 apart from the Thunderbolt port. Is one of them the better choice for most cases?

 

In short with binning, just because a chip isn't perfect doesn't mean it straight up doesn't work. Frequently lowering the clock speed or disabling cores can allow it to run "normally" but at a lower power than the design. They typically sell these at a lower price and with a different label.

What happens when a BGA component fails depends on who is fixing it, but most of the time the board is replaced.

And you'rte correct, after a while the mobo becomes pretty rare and expensive, and replacing the entire computer becomes more attractive than replacing a board that may cost nearly as much.

 

I was going to mention them in my post but I'm glad you did. I shows it's possible. What needs to happen is the GPU form factor needs to be something and handful of manufacturers can agree on so they can be interchangeable between makes and models. The form factor doesn't have to include every notebook, just enthusiast platforms that value upgradabilty. Then have Gigabyte, Asus, MSI and the likes sell their GPU's in retailers.

 

IIRC the reason it didn't do well was a combination of switching issues and overheating. To make a good modular I think they'd have to both make the module bigger and find a more efficient way to cool it. An internal fan would likely make it way too big. Maybe ASUS could expand on the GX800 formula and do an AIO liquid cooled external GPU module that plugs into the back. Oh, and offer an LGA chip to keep the folks on here happy.

 

The supporting of corporate decisions is hilarious & pitiful along with pointing out the obvious alternative choices, as all know which is not binary. As if one doesn't know plus suggesting an idea of kickstarter and self building in this capitalist society, Such impractical and amateur projection of ideas, Also being numb of the change which is no way productive to the end user, always taking the high level points (Socketed being upgrade-able only ? Socket restrictions ? or OCing or perf, C'mon ! instead of Integrity, advantage, user serviceable, upgrading over time, choice - liberty) of discussion is very saddening and turned into an ordeal, camouflaged as a diplomatic "Drinking Kool-aid" show. Instead to let the others know the serious downsides & Strong voicing on serious anti consumer practices, shizzle & How to vote with wallet...

Now here's some fresh "BGA Rotten Turd" news. Samsung finally started the BGA die production - Crammed a whole SSD into a small BGA package from the size of SATA/M.2 - NVMe ~100x69/80x22mm to mere 20x16mm. Plus this SSD will have the pseudo SLC caching with TLC garbage sauce with that Vertical technology advantage. Hey let's embrace the change It's very small thin and light and has advantage to slim the NBs further right, we cannot carry weight at all our spines are weak & More board space advantage making things go light and pose some sexy poses for Facebook selfies..ha ha.

Well it's not new we already know how the latest crApple's super gorgeous and super battery friendly ultraexpensive trashbook pros with from soldered ram to soldered SSDs now. With this technology going for mass prod lets expect one component goes down due to either endurace/heat/hw error there goes all your data into trash Good luck getting it to a hot solder station and removing that and placing that onto another similar board for data recovery or perhaps the corporate/OEM might offer their hassle free solution for extra cash while the poor ugly thick laptop users are and are dealing with pnp hw..

 

The think the fan could be self contained within the CPU module itself and get the job done. If you look at the Zotac 1080 mini we're basically there.
Start getting into AIO's and it's not much different from using an eGPU.

 

A good point, and if you can offload some of the cooling to the laptop itself that would help it keep slim too.

 

You dont want the heatsink on the GPU itself (ala NP9750/P570WM) as it makes it as thick as that beast was. You want the plate going off to the heatsink. Plus you want that heatsink on the edge of the machine so hot air can go immediately outside the chassis.

 

I actually liked how thick it was, but I agree the design of the heat sinks left a lot to be desired. You can do a lot more awesome stuff with a huge chassis, as long as that space is used wisely. Having a weapon that looks and feels like a BFG instead of a Derringer enhances the experience for some of us.

 

It would need to be built solid for sure, it would still end up a couple of MM thicker due to the socket anyway. I would also keep the dual fan nature on the corner with a 45 degree angle split between them and a super dense fin array for the GPU side.

 

Yes, if I am interpreting what you are saying correctly, I also like the idea of a "dual radiator" heat sink in the corner. You could effectively double the cooling capacity as long as you did not dumb them down by make both halves smaller to be the equivalent cooling of one. I'd be fine with it being a couple or three inches wider to accommodate the extra cooling capacity. You could also make the entire rear plane covered with radiator, with no unused space between the GPUs and CPU heat sink. A solid wall of radiators across the back as well as the sides at both rear corners could be really excellent. Maybe something like 6 or 8 cooling pipes for each component and precision machined heat plates carved from 0.5-inch billet copper that is stair-stepped to fit all of the components well with nothing more than 0.5mm thermal pads.

 

Would up the weight a little to have a denser fin array and the likely larger plate but would be worth it.

 

I like this idea, especially if it was combined with the existing vapor chamber in bigger models.

 

Keep in mind, a heatsink array is only as useful as the air you can push through it. For each inch of heatsink you add, you also have to push air through it to actually transfer the heat out of the copper/aluminium to atmosphere. Then you run into an issue of where you actually source the air from.

As far as sourcing air, you're pretty much limited to drawing from the bottom of the system. Drawing from the side is possible, but you end up having to push the air around further which kills air pressure and creates more noise.

It's quite a complex give/take when designing a functional cooling system with limited space.

 

Some of the MSI GS models pulled from the C panel adjacent to the screen (looked like speaker grilles). I think that would be possible with a bigger system as well.

 

It looks like AMD Raven Ridge APUs for notebooks may be BGA, after all. I think it's then up to Clevo to bring the AM4 platform to notebooks.

I genuinely believe the P65/67 series, with a bit of minor tweaking, will be able to handle desktop Ryzen, or perhaps Ryzen+/Ryzen 2. The 1800X is incredibly efficient at lower clocks, drawing some 35 W for 3 GHz on all eight cores.

 

^^^ It would be possible, but if you pull air from the c-cover you need to move the keyboard further forward to the front of the chassis and you can't run the MB past that point. That's one of the reasons why they had less HDD slots than models which don't take air from the c-cover.

 

If the manufacturer isn't silly about trying to achieve small and light, this is less of a problem. One of the many advantages of having a robust machine where reducing size, weight and power consumption are not numbered among any of the objectives is you can include more features, do more with more, and actually make it work a whole lot better without any silly restrictions like that. The foolish approach of doing more with less always results in compromises. I'd prefer to avoid compromises.

 

True. To accomplish it you'd have to make something that resembles a GT83VR but with a mechanical KB that is more like the one on a GX800 so it doesn't displace the mobo. Since fans are typically cut out of the board anyway it could have the top component cover replaced with an intake vent. If it's going to have radiators across the back anyway it's already going to be a monster.

 

Every user's situation is different. Fortunately we have big powerful machines for those of us who prefer them, smaller lighter machines for those who prefer those, and plenty in between to account for all different usage profiles and priorities.

 

Wait, whaaaat?...

 

That was my reaction, do you have a direct link?

 

Unfortunately, just having more space doesn't make it any more straight-forward. Trick is you need your fans as close as possible to the heatsink (same principals apply to radiators). Most low profile fans are pretty much entirely designed to draw air in perpendicular to their output which limits placement.

One thing the GS63/73 does, which I haven't seen much of, is expel air in 2 directions (rear and side) for both fans.

 

No direct link, just stumbled across this while derping around FB groups related to computers...

 

I do like that feature, since it seems a lot of users like to back their systems right up against a wall and restrict airflow for whatever reason.

 

Just use Arial. It's almost as good and probably costs less.

 

(G)old

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Those guys are from Singapore

 

Maybe they should have been pushed to this thread? Or looked at some of my posts in this thread? Knowledge is Gold