BGA Venting Thread ;)

Spoiler

 

All Danishblunt has to do to reclaim some of his credibility is something extremely simple, which he refuses to do, and even Simple Vulcan Logic dictates the correct path:

1) Record a youtube video of a 1.270v GT73VR at 5.2 ghz on a 7820HK running cinebench R15, with Throttlestop and HWinfo64 running in the background, along with a timestamp, showing temps, power draw and voltages live, and have the FIVR window open in Throttlestop to show the voltage that is being set also, manually (since we know how MSI's vid boosting works). Such a video can't be faked.

2) send @Prema a copy of the GT73 EC firmware that he "created". Prema would instantly be able to determine if it is real or genuine just by disassembling it in Linux.

It's really not that hard to do something if you set your mind to it and work on solutions. that's what chess players do. Logic. cold, simple hard Vulcan Logic. Whether or not you are a Star Trek fan.

But he refuses to do either. I'll let you guys be the judge....

 

Reinforcing my point.

I inferred about ToS, a static document that is typically posted on the forum for reference, and typically something that is displayed to new members to agree to.

When asking about a principle enforced by a forum, the forum staff cant enforce it without altering its ToS because it would incite bad PR from its community. Why? Because the community agrees to the ToS, and usually not a vague unwritten rule. I apologize for not clearly lining the steps for you, I believed you capable of making that inference. I was wrong. Next time ill hold your hand and take baby steps to fully display everything conveyed. If only you knew how to walk...

I did NOT ask about social norms in the forum.

There are other threads where you make claims, like the thread asking about why there arent more LGA offerings from more manufacturers. A simple debate made into a dumpster fire because you claimed that DTR's cant operate without a cooling pad, to which you never cited proof of and silently stopped posting in the thread as a result. I believe you made that signature after that event as well. Never mind the fact that a cooling pad will not resolve a laptop not properly dissipating heat, or the fact that such a machine would be lambasted on the forums to hell and back.

Both ends of the spectrum have issues.

Your loud and argue against LGA but lack proof and seemingly are intellectually dishonest about your discussions. You make claims, you have to back it up. I have no problem with a differing viewpoint but with no reinforcing data we cant even grant you a debate point.

The other end is loud because they are openly elitist performance hobbyist that sometimes ignores the needs of users outside of their circle. They provide citation which justifies how loud they are, even if sometimes it ignores the mainstream user. Your lack of evidence and dishonest displays only reinforce their viewpoint. Sadly, they have many events to which they can cite your misinformation, and instead of considering any level of reflection you double down.

But we have been through this already, you'll never change and I suppose thats fine. I'll just have to hope that who ever gets advice from you waits to get a second opinion before taking anything you say to heart.

Plenty of others have understood my last post, your the only one to not being able to understand the message conveyed thus far.

 

I didn't even bother read past your first sentence, since you're flat out lying at this point, I even cited you and showcased how you were not even remotely asking anything about the tos. I won't be able to take you serious anymore, so throw your hissyfit somewhere else.You're wasting my time, so feel free to post more walls of text, at best I'll read 1 sentence from you.

Thank you.

 

You haven't refuted that both ends of the spectrum have problems, so therefore I don't see why its wrong.

So yes, while I do hedge my statements on other matters I dont see how its wrong to say that both ends of the spectrum in this forum have issues.

 

Good thing you made it short.
I never said it's wrong to say that both ends of the spectrum have issues, i said it's wrong from from you to say that you hedge your statements, while not hedging your very first statement.

It's you implying things again.

If I wanted to actually talk about your "spectrum statement" the first thing I'd ask what the 2 ends of the spectum even are in your oppinion, since again you're being vague.

 

I hedge what I could permit possibility to be inaccurate. Obviously I believe that statement to be accurate, so I did not hedge it. I did not state that I ALWAYS hedge my statements. The post will not be edited, you can re-read it if needed. Only that I rarely state things in absolution. This is one them, obviously.

I realize you quoted that segment out of context but sadly myself and a majority read my post first before seeing your out of context quote. Context is literally, the next sentence.

I think the issue here is that your looking for keywords to refute instead of understanding dialogue.

If you expect people to listen to you, you have to at least listen to them or obviously communications will break down as they have just now.

 

Yeah no, it was not out of context. Didn't bother reading after that since you again seem to start wanting to talk yourself out despite having messed up.

 

Sorry, but ignorance is not a valid justification nor does it prove it to be in context as a result. I do mean ignorance in definition, not as insult. Nothing wrong with ignorance on its face, if repeated however they have another word for that.

But thanks for reinforcing my previous post in that you dont read for context but for keywords for you to construct a counter position.

I will continue to easily deconstruct the issues and fallacies of your posts if you desire to continue. This will only continue to force you to double down since self-reflection is an option you have refused yourself. Which is also fine. You will continue to serve as the member to be made an example of if you decide to continue this type of temperament among your peers.

 

As usual the sensible ground is in the middle. LGA systems with larger heatsinks are going to outperform their mobile more TDP limited counterparts. That does not make BGA systems bad as the experience especially in games will be very good.

 

people will have to define whats "good" and sadly, that "good" level has been going down for years since the introduction of bga. the old timers will know @Papusan @Mr. Fox @TBoneSan @many others, while new comers may think its normal on whats available nowadays and in a few yrs they'll see and come to understand it. so we tell them now, DO NOT PAY FOR GARBAGE, unless they are totally okay for what they've paid, any issue they experiencing due to overheating, not able to overclock, throttling, thats the responsibility of their purchase because they are totally okay with it and did not do enough research/ or spend enough time understand it prior to purchase.

intel will further cripple it with new ways to max their profit and minimize their spending. the latest one is "no longer list per core(s) turbo for CPUs going forward, will only say single threaded and all core turbo".

 

And off we roll again.....

You create users like Danishblunt with this kind of rhetoric as an opposite reaction and you continue to polarize the forum.

 

Business practices aside, I think BGA is great for college students that want to game and need battery life.

For me I treat my AW17 as a DTR but assuming everyone looks at it the same way would be erroneous.

 

It's the extreme views I just can't get behind, people who just can't accept the views and priorities of others as valid and then are PROUD of it.

Apparently it's hard to understand someone with a 3 year replacement cycle and 3 year warranty who has no intention of opening their machine other than MAYBE a ram/storage upgrade might want a thinner and lighter machine. No it's garbage and the user is a traitor who should be ashamed apparently.

Then we are starting to get users who think that a smaller heatsink and fan can somehow out perform a larger array with a higher TDP design in total.

The two sides shout louder and louder until there is no one left in the middle due to all the noise and then it's just a waste land left over.

 

Hence why I say its a problem on both sides of the spectrum

 

well, thats also how people define garbage too. quite frankly if they get offended how we call them filth garbage they can simply ignore the comment and take whats useful to them out of the rest of it, but sadly apparently when someone offended you, it means their entire existence is wrong. if he can make some valid and factual comment that benefits us, great. if you look back how i mentioned danishblunt in my post was trying to be civil and share some valid facts, until he goes of rail and spouting nonsense.

if ppl wish to purchase for sole purpose of using it thats fine. what will happen is, you see majority of these users complaining about over heating, throttling. when we point it out to them its because bga thin not go well with cooling, they bark right back to us about trends and mainstream. now going back to your other post, i think its the opposite meaker, its the other end of the spectrum started first then we get aggressive .

 

Your never going beat someone into submission on the internet. The best you can hope for is to display where wrong and hope for improvement.

 

Leaving you guys with this gem of wisdom.

This is when Blunt was asked to prove his 5.2 ghz on 1.270v STABLE on a GT73VR with custom home made EC claim.
http://forum.notebookreview.com/attachments/upload_2018-1-23_2-4-17-png.154229/

BTW this IS the BGA Venting thread, is it not?
Bashing BGA is allowed and wanted here.

 

Performance is like a complex equation. But to keep things simple like this even a 3 year old can understand - As easy as 1+2 = 3.

I buy X machine today with an i5 6600 on a Z170 Clevo due to <various reasons> and after 1 year I will upgrade it to an i7 7700K. Or any Clevo with P77xZM series with a Z97 chipset without any CPU but drop in an i5 4570 and again later to an i7 4790K/5775C. Can any notebook apart from LGA Clevo/ MSI F5 or perhaps older chipsets upto Haswell do this ? Nope. This called a brick wall. A solid dead end, no balance. Zero questions asked. Similarly, the laptop has an MXM slot, the older chip/GPU is damaged, and bam upgraded/replaced. In my case I got 860M and now ? 980M and in future ? P5000/Zotac1070/MSI 1060 - with zero to minimal mods, so what's is this ? Allow me to peel the banana peel off - It's called Choice / Liberty / Freedom, the same reason Premamod excels, A pinnacle of achievement. And It's a Fact.

Spoiler

Complications now arise from the binning, cTDP, Performance etc, so JUST for reduction of Z-Height machines is BGA existing ? Nope. Because Highperf($$$$) and BGA doesn't co-exist in this world. Again, Intel wants to pocket money, OEM wants to pocket money, thin and light sells so good with marketing and it's easy Nvidia MaxQrippled anyone ? Everyone wants to tap into the repair market, Lobbying (Inevitable, at multiple levels, but read how much of the repair market they want control of), so they are hell bent to prove it otherwise with all that tacky marketing fluff.

Just for the kicks ever wondered why 2K isn't regarded at the level of 4K ? It's simple human psychology. 4K is big number. Big everything, easy to market. Thin laptop = can do everything and fat laptop = trash. Apple proved it - Dongle'd laptop with full soldered hardware, 2015-16 had proprietary SSD slots and now 2017-18 fully soldered garbage for 3000USD without any spec on Processor SKU-ID, daylight robbery, Still they have green light and being the ultimate puppeteer they change the industry to worse (Look at Google's Pixeltrashbook, Zero info on the DDR spec worse than Apple and surcharging a 4 digit for a stupid ULV i5+128SSD, 41Whr battery). Sony is now the latest OEM who is dropping the headphone jack on Xperia, the company which made legendary MDR-EX1000 the best single driver IEMs which beat multi driver and far far higher priced CIEMs & has entire Hi-Res portfolio, Active Noise Cancellation and Digital Noise Cancellation without dropping the 3.5mm jack, welp ! this was a shock to me. I lost hope in companies because why would they want to spend more when people are settling for mediocre, dumb, DRMed walled territories. People stopped thinking. Threads like this should be always active to let people know about how their choice has paramount importance. & I pity this situation where people choose form over function when spending a significant chunk of cash for some disposable product.

When things go south these immovable corporations MOVE. Period. Apple battery fiasco, Nvidia Mobile cockblock/GTX970 fiasco. Where people voiced the distrust on the anti-consumer tactics, these companies stepped back from stooping down to the gutter to leech both the ignorant and arrogant. Unfortunately there has been a regression where Internet marketing is spun out of control, The NDA ends piles of videos show up for the mobile phones, Laptops, everything. All these YTers/Bloggers (People who aren't related to a corporate by any means) make super fat checks aligning nicely to the <Google/Insert any OEM> (See how Pixel is praised among all reviewers, despite its severe flaws and being overpriced). A shame tbh..

 

of course, we being loud and opposing to bga, calling them trash etc would be a way to voice our concern. just like ashtrix mentioned, corporation will continue to make money off the ignorant and arrogant, and its hard to fool someone rather than convincing them they have been fooled. Danishblunt is one of them and even after many proofs and facts been shown he remains ignorant, which i think its just incompetence at that point.

one needs to have decency to change for the better, if they dont have that, no matter what we say they'll end the same.

 

The ONLY effective way to voice your opinions and beliefs in regards to ANY technology is to vote with your wallet. Don't like BGA? Don't buy it. Buy what you want, and if that's LGA components in a notebook, be prepared to shell out the $$$. At least you have the choice.

@ole!!! Your rhetoric is very unrealistic. BGA exists to fulfill a pricepoint in the market. Properly designed BGA systems can be quite successful in cooling. My 1710 maintains a steady 1800+ clocks while gaming on GPU, and temps usually are in the 74-76C range. CPU runs slightly warmer, with a -.125V underclock.

If I want to tweak things further, I'll invest in aquiring a Prema BIOS replacement so that I can improve 4-core multipliers. As far as gaming goes, I get my 100fps@1080p, 60@4K on my external monitor with the games I play. My video encodes do 277fps for H265.

Overall, I am very happy with the performance considering the slim form factor.

If you feel that the performance I've gotten isn't worth the money I spent, too bad, because I voted for it with my wallet.

 

Sure.
88995 NOK = $11,312 (1x 1TB NVMe cheapest variant + 1x 1TB old fashion HDD). Nice

 

That's like saying small cars are pointless because the three wheeler models from the 70s were dangerous. One stupid design does not define the market.

 

certainly not, though going as far as trash maybe overboard, but that gets into another realm of debate.

i'd say trash, lots get upset, come to agreement with new term inferior product
i'd call em inferior product, some still get upset, then we talk it out for cheaper product
call them cheaper, some still get upset but less then we'll have a new name for it

im sure you can see where this is going, im not here to super coat things. we know full well of what these thin bga serve the general public, some people just dont like heavy/thick, i get that.

the easiest way for us to address the issue at hand, and grab their attention the fastest would be what we say now. they are TRASH and i'd NEVER buy them, but i would certainly recommend regular consumer to go for it, while letting know them the cons of it.

 

Choosing your words is important for dialogue. Your choice of words pretty much falls under just as much rhetoric as Danishblunt. Providing a screenshot as a citation to your argument doesnt negate the fact that your merely justifying your shouting at the people on the other end.

There is a world of difference between "sugar coating" and blowing out of proportions.

While I agree BGA shouldnt be marketed as the high end like it is, it delivers a need for a market in the mainstream. Its unfortunate the corners cut in the process but that really isnt something new, corners were cut even when rPGA was still the mainstream solution. Do not mistake that statement for justification either please.

 

Couldn't agree more. The 21" curved display Acer laptop, desktop keyboard, removable num-pad/touchpad etc etc is in no way whatsoever indicative of the BGA laptop market. Anyway, it's not USD 11k because you have to take the 25% tax off for a start - it's still rediculously expensive but still using that example (and multiple times) makes no sense.

 

Please read... " and if that's LGA components in a notebook, be prepared to shell out the $$$" And can I get 25% tax off HOME ? Can you do that everywhere you live? I don't think so.

 

I've never seen anecdotal example pushed to represent the entire medium so hard.

The irony here is that your one single anecdotal example doesn't disprove the statement in your quotes. Having an expensive bga laptop doesn't mean you no longer have to shell out a lot of cash for an lga laptop.

 

I could get +2 LGA laptops for same amount money (home). And regarding 25% tax OFF. Forget it. Not the way it works all places. I still have to pay +11K

 

It's like you live in the anecdote. Your displaying a novelty item that is absurd in price anywhere as an item of practicality that should be lambasted.

You have to be able to call a spade a spade dude.

All of which again, doesn't mean your not shelling out serious cash for an lga machine. Your post is not in anyway a logical counter to my rebuttal.

 

And? What has that got to do with the models that are reasonably priced and are several $100s cheaper than the LGA models?

 

I would refer to the other replies to that first point.

On the second about tax. I assume you converted it to USD to show how our American friends on here how expensive it is, you can't convert and not remove the 25% tax. That was my point.

 

BGA CPUs are not less expensive than a similar LGA CPU. Perhaps it allows for cookie-cutter laptops to be mass produced at a slightly reduced cost to increase the profit margins of those selling them, and it certainly is an impediment to repairs or upgrades (should there be an upgrade path) leading to repeat sales on more disposable dead-end junkbooks. However, I do not recall seeing examples of any meaningful savings being passed on to the consumer on account of it being an inferior BGA product.

 

A quad core BGA system with a Gtx 1070 is several hundred dollars cheaper.

 

Alienware 17R4 with (7820HK+1070) = 29 596 NOK
Clevo don't offer 1070 with LGA systems. P775TM with 1080 and 8700K = 28 280 NOK
Both delivered with minimum specs... LGA system with the stronger 1080 cost me 169,79 U.S dollar less. Of course prices and options will differ vs. other countries. But I pay less for more

 

You can get the desktop systems all in 1070 configurations though of course local supplies may impact things.

To give you an example then:

Our NP8157 is $1699, 1070, 16GB DDR4, 250GB SSD

Our NP9155 is $2224, 1070, 16GB DD4, 250GB SSD

That's quite the difference.

 

at that point, each person has their own preference. though i may not be very good at explaining things i do put time into understanding more. as for bga/thin, majority of consumers like it, companies go for it and it's where the money is and this is fact. when we mention lga is superior to bga, it is also fact.

a big part of bga community will blow up at the first sight of that particular comment, while we usually first provide proof and its "never" enough to convince them. in the end, I give up trying to convince people, I'll just use the easiest method, calling it trash is good enough and saves plenty of time lol.

i quite like the looks of 21x, would be better if they made it 16:9 though with bigger screen dimension with 21/22" with the same laptop width. and of course, LGA CPU/GPU.

upgrade-ability, easy repair, more performance, 2 more cores, latest CPU, worry less about warranty, better CPU quality, less overheating? easily worth the $500. when purchase people will look at price, its normal. when they realize they wanted to do any of the mentioned above and can't and realize they have to purchase a brand new machine for more, yeah i don't want to be in that position ever again.

 

Except when you need Battery life then you can just as easily state that LGA is trash. If one needs battery life in a mobile platform, which is basically the staple of a laptop, you'd want lesser performance in principle for the sole fact that you need less drain on the battery.

Herein lies the problem, both ends of the spectrum enter dialogue as if these issues exist in a vacuum, which is obvious that they dont. For what ever reason you guys forget this when entering dialogue.

Then XYZ manufacturer advertises these mainstream mobile gaming platforms as high end which provokes the enthusiast and then you get the mainstream market responding to the elitist. Completely forgetting that neither party even started the argument. In the end the manufacturer wins with free publicity and consumers continue to argue over things that will ultimately never change.

Both fill a need for their respective markets, or they wouldnt exist.

Its odd that you state 16:9 would be better when we have elitist's that state 16:9 is trash and that 16:10 is far better lol not poking at you or anything just thought that was humorous.

Truly though, I felt the 21X should've been LGA for that size, but its a novelty item just as much as it is a computer I guess, though I was never a part of that market.

 

Not all BGA models can boast of having a massive battery runtime either.

 

With this thread or with any voicing on internet we cannot change how Intel makes their chips lol, Look at meltdown and spectre, and how Linus trashed and grilled Intel. Will they change ? Perhaps or not or offer a cookei cutter trash solution like the TIM on the HEDT X299 SKL-X. But we can put a massive dent like "voting with wallet" by letting others know. Or PR disasters like the MSI trade program fiasco.

But with similar discussions here it will help people know about the consequences on buying a laptop which has a GPU and an i7 both with "good power/perf/price ratio". I.e >1500+, where BGA fails. So just with a quick search I found how positive things are..

And yeah there's no free publicity here, People need to make a good choice and the forum is built for that to help others on getting to know more, obviously there will be 2 sides and the person will make his/her choice. No one is forcing but yeah the results are crystal clear.

btw this is interesting , check out this thread's title
" What happened to Alienware? Why is everything soldered now? Where is the M18x R2 successor?"

And finally this amazing thread on emphasizing and focusing how the MXM slots help the owners of the machines to run many years from brother @sicily428 , a lot of work is put into this thread.

Sharing is caring, Every post here is worth something & is not lost in vain.

 

Nor did I.

No offense but talking to you is almost paralleling talking to Danishblunt right now.

Re-read my post and ask yourself if I stated that all BGA based systems have amazing battery life, then ask yourself why I premised that with wanting lesser performance to create less draw on the battery when needed.

Then ask yourself why you come and present literally the worst possible scenario with the highest possible power draw.

Then ask yourself how that is a rebuttal to what I stated.

Both of you guys are trying to attribute arguments I did not make. If your trying to convince anyone of anything your going to need at least understand the statement made and offer an appropriate counter rebuttal that is on point.

I mean this is EXACTLY why I stated that you cant have these arguments in a vacuum, and literally the next post is "well not all xyz".

Dude come on...this is just getting silly.

Oh for sure dude, I agree 100% do not mistake my position on the matter lol. I bought a used AW17 R1 because it fulfills my needs on its face and the rest I can mod into it. It not being BGA is the single largest attribute to that fact.

What I a arguing here is for better dialogue, too often these arguments starting becoming along the lines of Winner and loser. While it may appear that way on its face to us the loser will only dig in their heels and continue to maintain their position.

As for Linus, I dont watch his channel, I generally see him as an idiot when it comes to laptops in particular, so I really dont care what he has to say on the matter. Dont really need his input to know these exploits are going to tank intels Public Image but that hasnt really changed anything for us in the mobile market yet. AMD has no offerings anywhere in the high end and the one option they have still has growing pains.

Its hard to not draw analogies from Politics even though they work so well for this lol

 

I have no need for re-read. I responded only on your reply... Battery life and "LGA" is trash. Maybe you should take look on how you put/type your posts. I can't see the problem with my reply back. It was correct stated. Oh'well, no need to embroider more on this.

 

Your doing the EXACT same thing Danishblunt does, looking for keywords and stop reading so you can type a counter. You found 6 words you didnt like and ignored the real core of my argument.

Those keywords arent even in the order that I presented and completely alter what I was communicating. Your either being willingly ignorant or intellectually dishonest at this point dude.

Context is important. Its really no surprise that we get FOILs like Danishblunt when you yourself propagate the same lines and keep talking past each other.

This is not hard dude. If your not willing to understand someones argument then dont bother responding to them, its entirely self defeating and quite depressing to see.

 

that battery line is one of the excuse they'd come up with. because whenever i start communicating with the bga/thin community, i'd say LGA is better because of better quality and performance, which both are true. my argument are not based off battery, though LGA can easily be as efficient as bga because they are the same gen architecture with better quality silicon, simply down clock it if you don't need it.

however, as you can see they use other benefits of bga/thin to argue against performance and quality, which is entirely false and just irrelevant. when pointing out to them, they would go around in circle with those side benefits of bga and bash LGA, this is a repeated thing and i have seen plenty times.

anyway since this is bga venting thread, calling them trash/garbage is no concern, people coming here getting upset/offended, well don't come in and read it lol.

ps, 16:9 better than ultra wide just looks better. but yes i'd prefer 16:10 but no one makes those anymore, unless you go here https://ssi.en.taiwantrade.com/product/spark-s24t-1102117.html

 

For sure, LGA is great for performance and future proofing.

If battery is their one debate point but they only use the laptop at home then that would be hilariously redundant.

I tried in several pages to get the max potential battery life out of Papusan but he ultimately refused to try the exercise, citing that he didnt care about battery life. Which I already knew.

I agree, you can downclock the CPU and maybe the GPU to a lesser extent but can you get close to 5-6 hours?If someone can display similar battery life then the only argument one can present is the price tag. Which will simply come down to timing and budget on the consumer at the given time.

Im no fan of BGA, I bought a older used laptop to ensure I dont touch BGA as I like to mod almost anything I can. BGA restricts that hobby of mine sadly lol and thus why I have this thread subbed

 

i'll shall try that, but i take it to the most extreme case which i deem usable and efficient for me. example if i want to go battery, then only time i'd use it is when power is out and i want it last as long as possible. i'd set up a dual boot system with just win boot into battery profile with bunch of stuff disabled, and would change settings in bios to remove pcie, sata, wifi, turn off all cores except for 1 and use iGPU. given that i only have 1070 and it doesn't allow me to undervolt and only allows small downclock that part will kill battery. it is one of the fewer regret and im sure you seen me posting in other threads wanting to have iGP as backup.

but you get the point, i had my m18xr2 which had PGA normal use i'd go 4.7ghz with modded heatsink and dual fans. when power is out i'd just switch it all off, switch OS with only iGP driver installed, and watch video for like 7hrs, it was pretty good.

 

Well thats even better! Then people can extrapolate a range for their uses based on how many components they have enabled for those use cases.

Yes I understand you bud, all good in my book.

This is exactly the kind of dialogue I was trying to extract

 

i always had this dialogue lol and even if i dont, the facts and usage case/scenario are still the same, people just need to apply it. it seems consumers nowadays just buy it and use it, yes bga/thin gives 8 hrs battery life, but they prob don't know if they could disable 3/4 cores, undervolt iGP, further downclock iGP, disable unneeded storage and wifi, they can extra more hrs. people following trend/mainstream do not put those thoughts in and honestly those are the basics to extend battery life.

 

Yeah its a bit of a problem. I learned that early with the y510p and not being able to upgrade the GPU's even though the CPU was more than capable. Now I can least upgrade to an AMD desktop GPU with it but the prices are so bad on desktop anything right now its self defeating for the time being. Have to wait until the next crash to look at AMD GPU's.

Well for those that refuse to engage in a constructive conversation then yeah go and throw them the triggers, its not like they were going to entertain revising their position to begin with.