BGA Venting Thread ;)

That is a stresstest with I9 + GPU on furrmark and P95. The GPU is only at 80c on 1.8ghz while the CPU holds a respectable 3.7ghz, STOCK, No undervolt, cheap thermal paste.

 

The future for high performance notebooks is not good: Clevo have been the only manufacturer (with the exception of the LGA MSIs) making high end socketed notebooks for years now, and they are getting complacent due to the lack of competition. Alienware are dead and will likely never build superb machines like the M17X, M15X et cetera ever again. I have never rated Asus since I have zero interest in their BGA crap. MSI are at least still producing LGA chassis, yet they strangely do not seem to sell them themselves. At least their more expensive notebooks have MXM GPUs unlike 99% of machines nowadays. Having socketed hardware is only half the battle though, proper firmware and unlocked BIOS controls for all the clocks, voltages, power limits et cetera is how a good machine can become great (as long as it can stay cool). I can't speak for MSI, as I do not know, but the Clevo stock BIOS/Firmware sucks compared to other motherboards with Z1/2/370 chipsets.

There is also the matter of cooling, which every manufacturer fails at to some extent (though some more than others). Out of the box almost everything will throttle if you push it. This seems to have always been a problem, manufacturers seem too scared to provide enough contact pressure on CPUs, too cheap to give us proper thermal paste and so on. Intel don't help either by continuing to use Colgate between the die and IHS.

I'm sure the engineers of every manufacturer - Clevo, MSI, Alienware, Asus et cetera - are capable of designing a truly high end laptop with proper cooling, socketed hardware, proper firmware and BIOSes, proper driver support and continued support for upgrades. Nobody will do this however, because to get performance like that you are going to end up with something which costs 2-3 times or more than a desktop with comparable performance - and very few people are willing to pay the price. The market is too niche and the margins are too small for anyone to bother. Its a relief that we even have the P870, though it does seem to be more popular than older Clevo DTRs - but I have to wonder how much Clevo actually make from selling them compared to their BGA crap. The P870 and perhaps the P570WM (even though it was a hot mess) are the closest we have had to that ideal, and I believe the latter is still the only laptop to ever have a 12 core CPU. The MSI LGA stuff is also good, but still has the same issues as the Clevos.

The fact is most people would rather buy a BGA turd with a throttling CPU and a 1050-1060 for $1000 than spend $3000 on a proper machine, because they can get 50% of the gaming performance for 1/3 the price (unless you are willing to put the effort into buying a barebones system and sourcing your own parts). I can't really blame them, most people do not have the knowledge or funds to do so. Everyone learns how crippled these machines are eventually though when they thermal throttle or when the BGA starts to fail. Even with a good machine you will need to put a lot of effort into making it run properly (or you can simply pay HIDEvolution to do it for you).

I'm still very happy with my P870DM-G, its by far the best machine I've ever owned - and I have plenty of upgrade options left for the future. Unless something catastrophically fails, I should be able to get 5 years out of this machine without an issue (which is more than can be said for most laptops nowadays). If i had enough room though, i'd have bought a desktop in a heartbeat. Since I do not have the space for one, this was the next best thing. I'd always suggest people go for a desktop first if they can rather than a notebook, since its cheaper to build an 8700K + 1080 desktop, and buy some cheap BGA crap for portable use than it is to get a laptop with similar performance.

 

the latest 8 core will finally mean we have surpassed p570wm in terms of CPU performance. 8 core overclocked should be capable of taking down 12c stock or 8 cores 1680v2 by quite a large margin. pair that up with pcie optane SSD and its overall a much faster laptop.

we just need to find ways to expand the screen real-estate

 

Can't see why Intel wouldn't allow use of the 9th gen CPUs on Z370, it should just need a BIOS update. I doubt Clevo will provide that however, so it will be down to Prema again.

 

It always is.
Also don't thjink that way, we talk about intel here, same idiots who invented the U series, calling an I7 CPU I9, who want to put TDP limits that are ridicolous etc. You bet your behind they will try to pull something.

 

I'm pretty sure Z370 will support 9th gen as MSI are allegedly updating their BIOSes for it, but the one crappy thing i can see them pulling is making Z390 a requirement for the 9900K. We will see though.

 

if I went with desktop it would cost me more. I wouldn’t be happy with a mainstream setup.

Second one... https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/g...upport-to-z370h370-and-b360-motherboards.html

 

We already see proof the 9th Gen qualification samples are running on Z370 motherboards, so unless Intel changes something in the 11th hour to block it out of sheer contempt for their customers (which is not likely) it is almost a given that it will work on Z370. It would also be consistent with their history.

Whether or not it makes any sense (cost versus benefit) to upgrade to Z390 remains to be seen. I'm guessing probably not, but who knows. If the i9-9900K does work as expected on Z370, I seriously doubt I will find a legitimate reason to buy a newer motherboard regardless of what the selling gimmick turns out to be. Optane was the only gimmick to sell Z270 over Z170 and I still don't give a rat's butt about Optane. Kind of like DX12. Was supposed to be so wonderful and amazing, but turns out to be barely relevant and essentially unnecessary after all is said and done.

 

we honestly can't take notebook check seriously tho. they say GPU is at 85C and CPU is at 99C and no throttling. CPU getting 99C and no thermal throttle? sounds like a joke. also looking at the screenshot, why are the frequencies different.

also what you mentioned stock, no undervolt etc. how would you know that vs the older 73 laptop that @Falkentyne got? MSI could have easily made changes to bios and firmware settings to accommodate it better due to nature of it housing 6 cores CPU. battery power throttling seems gone so obviously lots has been changed and improved.

using this 1 laptop example to say BGA and LGA are no different just dont work. if MSI did a good job on this laptop, good for them because thats what OEM/ODM should have done. just as MSI done a good job here is a fact, BGA is still inferior to LGA is also a fact.

 

All reviewed i9-8950Hk on Notebookcheck.net. Stock clocks. Aka 4.3GHz all 6 cores



i7-8700K stock clocks in +3 years old Clevo. @Falkentyne can you see the differences? Same clocks.

 

I've noticed in a few NBC screenshots they haven't cleared the results from one stress test run before doing the next. So hard to tell whether or not the max temp reading was from say, thermal throttling under turboboost or from a slow fan speed ramp up, or the previous CPU-only stress test and now under CPU+GPU stress it's hitting a platform power throttle that keeps the CPU from temp throttling.

Besides, max temps are sometimes not the whole story, they can spike 5C or more higher than where the readings spend the majority of the time.

 

Mobile chipsets are optimised more for power saving, along with slower ram you will often see this.

 

Intel could still throw a monkey wrench at us at the last minute, but it seems the CPU upgrade path is going to be there as expected. It will be interesting to see if the price is reasonable or outrageous.

https://www.pcworld.com/article/329...-intel-9000-series-cpus-motherboards.amp.html

 

I mean consdiering how intel and NVIDIA have handled their latest stuff, I would not be the least bit suprised if they do something stupid.

 

If this was a couple of years ago you'd probably be right, but now there is actually some competition in the CPU market Intel need to be a bit more careful about pulling fast ones like nVidia do. nVidia still have no real competition of course, which is why they have managed to milk Pascal for the past couple of years along with crap like the DDR4 1050, 3GB 1060 and so on.

 

Regarding Intel and upgrade ability... 4770+4790 - 6700+7700 and now 8700K + 9900K. Nothing has really changed there. What’s coming later due the new competition with AMD, god knows. But expect minimum same 2 gen chips on old chipset will continue.

 

i guess it wouldnt be fair to call it that intel supports them. tbh i think intel never openly stated they support them and always want people to buy new chipset + CPU as a business should. we are lucky to have premas mod otherwise who knows if we had to buy a new mobo or not.

 

Intel haven’t closed the door for two gen chips on old first chipset.

I put also desktop into this. Without @Prema magic I wouldn’t buy laptops. I would go straight back to home build desktop as before.

 

i hate desktop for having no battery and display requires additional cable and not powered by battery. a UPS PSU would help solve half the issue tho.

 

How buff are you that you can carry around a desktop everywhere? Honest question.

Personally, I'd build my desktop in a 4U chassis shoved into a half-height rack mount along with my router, switch and NAS, but different strokes for different folks.

 

i use to carry 2-3 17-18" laptops around so its no problem. what i find is a problem is having to connect/disconnect and reconnect (monitor, monitor cable, audio, keyboards, desktop power cable) is extremely annoying. ontop of not having backup power for a portion of your hardware is just as stupid, which getting UPS externally solves backup power, but increases more wire connect/reconnect issue.

to resolve it i'd need a powerful enough PSU that has UPS built in and put that into something like S24T chassis. of course that has it's own issue such as not enough height for most water cooler and its not a standard case.

 

and no im not buff, im actually not built at all but carrying them isnt something i mind.

 

See the info below in this post and the next one. I would need a better 8700K sample, like the one in my desktop or the one @Papusan has in his P870DM-G to get better temps. The 8700K in my P870DM-G is an average (crappy) sample and needs too much voltage for 5.0GHz to run cool on air. The same CPU even ran too hot in my liquid cooled desktop. Since I no longer really use my laptop unless I go on a business trip, I am fine with running it stock. Temps are perfectly fine, in spite of the poorly binned sample.

The CPU in your P870DM-G is clearly a much better sample than the one in my P870DM-G. The one in my P870DM-G will not even POST with the voltage as low as yours is set. I have to clear the CMOS before I can boot again if I try to set a -200 voltage offset, LOL.

But, even with an 8700K sample that is nothing worth writing home about, is there any mobile "i9" laptop that can do these temps or equal performance with default core ratios? Bear in mind, neither of our machines were designed with the idea of using a hexacore CPU. Our heat sinks were designed for systems that were far less powerful, and yet these 3 year old notebooks rip the nuts off of the new turdbook filth that is supposedly built for a mobile i9 CPU.

 

@Papusan - have you spotted any examples of a "mobile i9" laptop that is capable of running DDR4-3000 memory speeds stable yet? I haven't looked for one, but I also have not seen one.

Also, the above temps and the temps below are with the laptop sitting in my lap without my modded U3 cooler.

CPU has Phobya NanoGrease Extreme on top of the IHS.

 

There's the Dell Precision 7530...

 

I can't remember have see it. If you had a Jokebook and run same task I wouldn't put it on my lap

I love this one. Pictures say more than words


As well in 3DM Fire Strike Physics The i9-8950Hk in the Alienware's killed by the low entry i7-8750H in the Dellbook @Alienware-Frank

 

Interesting. Do you have a link? I'd like to see an example of a BGA notebook running the RAM at 3000. Thanks in advance.

After our fifth child I got my plumbing disconnected, so it's OK. But, that workload for 8.5 minutes might cook something else with a turdbook in your lap.

 

https://www.storagereview.com/dell_precision_7530_workstation_review


But... https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/sho...30/spd/precision-15-7530-laptop/xctop7530hwus

 

Hmm. They advertise it, but do not offer it? LOL. Okie-dokie, so what's new, right?

I guess I am still waiting for an example. I mean, it should not be that difficult unless their MRC and chipsets are crippled like everything else has been. It's shouldn't take over 3 years for them to catch up for something as simple as a system that has functionality with XMP 3000.

Maybe @Ionising_Radiation can share an example of it actually happening.

 

http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...730-owners-thread.820539/page-6#post-10758252

What's dumb is the 7530's BIOS forces XMP, with a locked-down BIOS that contains no memory tuning options to switch to stable JEDEC timings if need be. So imagine popping in some modules where the XMP profile is not stable on that system, and not being able to boot.

 

Probably new. Yees.
The world's most powerful mobile workstation.
forum.notebookreview.com/attachments/precision_7730_spec_sheet-pdf.158124/
Up to 3200MHz SuperSpeed memory. Work in stunning .... Up to 128GB 2666MHz DDR4 NECC (Coming Soon).

 

Thanks for the link. Yeah, that would suck. Gotta love the cancer firmware the industry is cursed with. Pretty disgusting how everything they sell is so crippled.

But, hey... we finally have an example, after all this time. I'm sure it's a welcomed enhancement by some as long as it is stable with default values and doesn't require any fine tuning.

Uh-oh... It seems like they are lying again. Their lips are moving. Or, maybe they just have not seen the MSI mobile workstation with the desktop CPU yet. Ignorance is not a legitimate excuse, but it is more honorable than being a liar.

 

Not yet, I suppose. They're also advertising 128 GB total system memory, but that would mean that Samsung has released these 32 GB modules, but they haven't. Dell only began offering Ubuntu and the AMD Radeon WX cards about a month and a half after release. But then again, I haven't seen any SODIMMs at all that run at 3.2 GHz CL14 stock...

Might be nice to know that the Precisions are amongst the highest stock clockers (reach 3.6 GHz, break 1200+ CB15 point barrier, 1300 in the case of the 7730) of the 8750H, 8850H, Xeon E-2176M, Xeon E-2186M and 8950HK. The 8950HK in one case actually runs at 4.15 GHz on all 6 cores (150 MHz away from stock all-core Turbo clocks) after a 100 mV undervolt, and no other cooling mod, including thermal paste.

Of course, it's no P870DM, but it's decent enough for me.

 

Up to 128GB 2666MHz DDR4 NECC

i will be very interested in that. 4 dimms? dont think its currently possible yet unless its desktop, or server ecc ram.

 

And, these are the temps for stock core ratios with the U3 under the P870DM-G.

 

Samsung has these SODIMMs.

Dell says the 32 GB and 3200 MHz SODIMMs will be offered as options on their website from mid-August.

 

Not only push Dellienware out AW gamingbooks with lackluster performance from Coffee BGA. But dang, they have started to push people aka their own customers into Windows Store as well http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...5-owners-lounge.815492/page-183#post-10774263

 

Integrating windows store into your control software... wow.

 

sounds like a nasty move. will never buy a BGA to start with but thats a cancer move for sure, if its true.

 

At first that was my reaction as well. But, then I thought about it and it's less wow and more like just really sad. So many really horrible decisions made by people demonstrating unprecedented stupidity. This is just one of them. It's difficult to rank levels of stupidity in leadership, but I'm sure the imbeciles calling the shots on things like this don't even realize what abject failures they are. Nothing surprises me about bad decisions and failures with Alienware though. They've been on a collision course with death for a while now.

Taking an essential system support software module like AWCC and making it a UWP app that is reliant on Windows Store reflects intellectual bankruptcy on an order of magnitude that is totally unforgivable.

 

honestly im not too sure if its the difference in mobo or whats really going on. your cpu package temp difference to core is like 8-10 C difference. in my machine the difference is about 4-5C. in hwinfo i simply add 4C to each core so they match CPU package's temp.

 

Hwinfo ain't perfect. Expect some small differences. From testing yesterday.


Edit. Older test with BGA clocks.

 

There is a similar difference between CPU Core and CPU Package temps on my desktop as well. Core temps and CPU package temps are clearly not the same measurement. I'm not concerned about it. The max is not high enough to matter anyway.

 

@Papusan his cpu package temp is close to that of core. probably sensors on the cpu itself tbh im not really sure. do you solder shim to your heatsink?

 

Nope. I added two extra heat pipes to it, but it's otherwise unmodded. The two extra heat pipes didn't bring enough improvement to be worth the time and effort required for that mod. It looks cooler though, LOL.

 

Nope, no shim. Only removed the C-clips from the CPU heatsink and add washers between steel springs and the screws head. The Heatsink quality on the newer Clevo models is improved and such mods is probably not as needed as with the first models. I haven't seen many complaints on the newer models heatsink/cpu bracket.

 

c-clips and washers?

 

This is definitely true. The first P870DM-G/Eurocom Sky X9 models had very poor quality heat sinks. Thing improved dramatically from the P870DM3 forward. In fact, the developer unit I used to work with Prema back in 2015 had heat pipes that were not even soldered to the cold plate. Only the plastic adhesive handle (tape) was holding the heat pipes in place. I glued them back down with Arctic Silver thermal epoxy, LOL.

 

I'll post a photo here in a bit.