BGA Venting Thread ;)

@Papusan
You have never been forgotten. Your passion for bringing back PGA/LGA reminds me of my passion for bringing back 16:10 laptops.
Unfortunately, I don't think we shall see 16:10 make a comeback, but socketed laptops have continued to be released by Clevo which is a good thing. I would have also loved if they also continued to support the MXM standard. I mean, right now, only 4 laptops on the market still have socketed CPUs and MXM video cards. And to think that ten years ago even the mid-range laptops had socketed processors and MXM video cards.

But I think it's one step at a time. Socketed processors have a much broader appeal. MXM video cards don't make their value apparent immediately, but from my experience, they can seriously prologue the lifetime and usability of your laptop, much more than socketed processors. I guess that's why they were removed in the first place; they increase the laptop's price and make it last longer.

 

Reddit's a good place for funny stuff and cute animal pictures, but not sure why people would get their hardware information there.

 

Because it's a familiar place for a lot of people with less experience.

 

I'm in my 30's and have never had a reddit account. Just felt like confessing that!

 

Also dont use Reddit, just seems like a cesspool more often than not.

 

It's not a bad place for most things, and some of the communities on there are great, it's just that consensus through votes is really nice for a lot of forum related things but not so nice in cases where the majority don't have technical knowledge and their votes outweigh those of the (fewer) people who do.

 

Lol now that's a very grey haired response

Certain communities I would guess but I dont hang around those.

 

Amen to that.

 

Odd thing to be proud of :/

 

For in depth technical stuff not so useful but for some quick advise there are some good sub reddits.

 

It doesn't have to make sense :^)

 

I've never had a reddit account, but only because I couldn't fathom a reason to need one. It pops up in my various searches from time to time though, and I do tend to read through the relevant threads.when it does.

 

Without people there would be nothing to read through

 

Probably have more forums though

 

Maybe or just more social media

 

At this point, the only thing keeping me on laptops is purely the convenience factor of having KVM (keyboard/video/mouse) with the computer in a single form factor. The way things are going, with the laptop industry trending towards having every device soldered on, it makes me feel consumers have all their choices taken away.

Desktop owners have much more freedom of choice. I hope that a modular KVM ITX supplier will make it's way to the market so I can abandon manufactured laptops entirely. I shouldn't be forced to buy a preconfigured and unchangeable set of hardware that's developed for the masses just because I want a laptop computer.

 

I think we have more choices now than we did two years ago. You can choose between a Dell, MSI or Clevo for Intel LGA CPU and an Acer with AMD PGA CPU. It's a shame that Dell didn't make a version of its Precision line with LGA CPU's but I imagine they probably didn't so their machines can be comparable to what Lenovo and HP offer to that market.

 

Clevo with one less LGA model and MSI went one step forward but sadly two steps backwards with soldered graphics. Not much of a change. Btw the AMD PGA CPU models have soldered graphics as well. And not a high end graphics as option. Dell offer ram specs below Intel’s data sheet for their 8/9th gen processors. And haven’t MSI added in less storage slots vs. before? + the smaller 15,6 MSI barbone isn’t with newest Core i7/i9 LGA models.

 

In the past Dell, HP, and Lenovo all had LGA CPUs. MSI and Clevo are smaller than these 3.

What extra cost is there to include LGA sockets on already expensive workstations? $20/laptop?

When it comes down to it there's no good excuse. These companies lack vision and creative thinking of a strong leading figure like Azor or Jobs, so they fall into profit margins and groupthink.

And we get to complain about it!

 

LGA would add extra weight and thickness for it to make sense. That is going to be a tough sell to most new engineers coming out of school because they see everyone else using thin and light laptops and do not want the weight of a true desktop replacement unless they actually need it. Even most gamer's do not want the extra weight as well because if they did they would just build a nice ITX system that is far more cost effective and likely still more powerful and upgrade-able than even the most expensive laptops available.

Don't get me started on MSI. They took two product lines, the WT75 and GT75, and decided to ignore the benefits of both and release a new model that is overpriced and lacking many features. For gaming the GT75 is a far better choice than the GT76, especially now that they are releasing configurations with the 144Hz 1080p display.

 

You're right about that. Weight is an important factor I hadn't even considered.

Weight isn't the end-all be-all of devices though. Lots of people buy heavier phones for longer battery life. There's a market for people who want more features and not super slim/light laptops.

 

A market but how big?

 

And is there a place to get the numbers? From all brands which offer bigger laptops? See... Clevo, Msi, Acer, Dell which offer more than BGA. But I don’t think we will get correct numbers.

We will never get correct numbers over the amount people who want more than the flimsy thin Jokebooks. This is the reality. Because Statistics done by everyone who think they know ain’t always the 100% truth.

 

It's easy. Most people who purchase laptops are casuals who make decisions based on marketing, eg "Lighter! More RAM! Digital Xtreme Tuner 4.0 with VRM+ Gold!" The idea is to make them feel empowered and validated, in spite of whatever ******** the company is selling.

All you have to do is market the features which enthusiasts desire properly, then you have created a market.

 

I think that marketing material is the last thing that enthusiasts care about. I am personally more interested in a spec sheet, service manual, or even a schematic!

Granted, I still think we have more LGA options today than we did two years ago. Back then it was either Clevo or an MSI whitebook. The fact that you can choose a Dell with an LGA socket is amazing and proves that trends that Intel and Apple set do not dictate the entire market.

 

Yeah, I guess I didn't explain myself clearly. What I meant is laptop makers should market features which enthusiasts desire to casual buyers, and the casual buyers will buy them.

 

It's hard to market features to people who are not interested in them.

 

Why?

You think people who purchase laptops actually know what they're buying? Know how many people on Reddit actually search Notebookreview and actually read reviews before buying? It's close to zero. Seriously read some of the questions here and on /r/Suggest laptop. Most people know very little about the hardware and internals of what they're buying. Even less among the non-PC savvy.

Most people who buy laptops make decisions on impulse based on marketing phrases and slogans. Just make the features enthusiasts want interesting enough and they'll want them.

 

Sneak it in, it just does not work that way. It is a practical choice and very price sensitive too.

 

I'd like to see which casual buyer would like to get him/herself a notebook that's thrice as thick and twice as heavy as the current crop of RTX notebooks with tiny bezels and < 2 kg mass.

There's a reason this market segmentation exists in the first place, and the enthusiasts here would be hard-pressed to sell enthusiast components and computers to casual or business users.

I fully support the repairability argument here, and MacBooks are amongst the worst offenders. However, Dell still publishes complete service manuals for each and every one of its products (including Alienware and XPS). So does HP. For all their faults, these companies make it relatively easy for end-users to repair their own products.

Upgradability is something that has been up in the air. If you've used an Intel CPU even on the desktop in the past 3 years, you would've had to change as many motherboards, because for each *Lake, the chipset changed, too.

The typical things that could be replaced in a notebook are the RAM and the secondary storage. Many notebooks' displays can be replaced, too, and on older notebooks, the CPUs are PGA. The BGA argument is an Intel-only problem, and AMD's mobile CPUs are BGA, too.

Adding an LGA CPU comes with an enormous baggage of supporting a minimum TDP of 60 W, up to 200 W from one chip alone. GPUs are a little easier (see my own Precision, which can potentially be upgraded).

There is plenty of nuance to the situation, and broadly painting everyone with the same stroke will make you miss the details.

 

Sneak it in? You can’t win if you don’t try. All know the notebook manufacturers want screw you. With machines who is worthless once warranty is out and something happens. They washing their hands and hope you’ll come back buy another 4K machine if you was so stupid you didn’t pay max extended warranty(some even think it’s not necessarily buy max extended warranties on expensive junk). Because there isn’t much other options out there. 99% is pure Junk. Flashy colors and aluminum body ain’t the same as a quality notebook. Quality is much more than the chassis and screen.

 

Some settle for rubbish because that's what they want or that is what they believe they can afford. The superior products will sell themselves to those who want the best after they find out something superior is available. Many settle for rubbish simply because it is the only option available to them, or because the better alternatives are so obscure they do not even know they exist.

 

... Sheesh.

People buy what they want to buy, and nothing is truly rubbish (outside of sub-$500 notebooks in bargain stores, possibly).

I wouldn't say a $2000 ultrabook like the Dell XPS or HP Spectre is rubbish. They have some things going for them, and those are portability and battery life.

Many here think that everything besides a petrol-guzzling (or, in this case, electricity-guzzling) notebook four centimetres thick and three kilograms heavy, of which one third the weight is cooling pipes, is useless, but there are seven and a half billion people in the world, and 'dozens of us'. The very reason why such powerful notebooks are not popular, is because they are difficult to carry around. Simple as that.

We either accept it, or we can rant and rave and nothing gets going.

The real fight we should be fighting is against repairability, not 'BGA' or 'LGA' or 'MXM' or whichever acronym we choose to use.

 

Sure http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/xps-15-7590-owners-lounge.829412/page-14#post-10936918

Why pay more than sub $500 for trashbooks? Wasted money! And $200/300 should be max limits paying for the tragedy’s.

 

Materials, battery life, mechanical quality, performance, storage capacity, display quality audio quality are the areas where people will pay a premium.

 

To me BGA makes sense if you are traveling often and want to have both good battery life and be able to game. You would also need to be willing to buy a warranty for however many years you expect the machine to last. Price is going to be depending on how important having the device is for you and how much money you make, but in general spending a couple percent of your annual income doesn't seem unreasonable. I have seen people sink much more money than that in cars, gambling and other hobbies!

 

"Sneak it in"

 

Maybe MSI sneak in LGA as well this year? The same did they for the BGA Graphics tragedy (no reason for the BGA graphics chips in that chassis). Many forms for “sneak it in”. People don’t like thickness but why would MSI continue with somewhat thick chassis when “everyone” wants thin? Their Stupid engineering team which didn’t listen on what today’s people want? Nope. It’s cheaper continue with BGA Tragedy in thin and flimsy! Don’t be fooled by marketing team or similar. None have the proper numbers what (all) people want. If they had they would hide it. Remember... They can’t max out the profit if they have to spend more than the minimum.

 

I would love to talk to the product manager of the GT76 and ask them why they went with a BGA GPU. I can defend that decision on the GS/GE but the GT has classically been MXM (even if it's their custom MXM) and they already had RTX cards from the GT75 they could have used.

 

Cost saving I would guess.

 

Someone in authority in the decision path for such things doesn't want to sell LGA CPU'd laptops, but they finally had to "allow" it due to the "overwhelming" customer demand**.

[** I can imagine @Papusan calling vendors long distance a couple of dozen times a day using a different name and a different funny voice - demanding that they use LGA CPU's instead of "filthy" BGA CPU's ]

Putting in a non-MXM GPU - soldered to the motherboard and therefore unreplaceable was done to kill the new LGA laptop's sales.

What self-righteous proponent of LGA CPU's would be caught dead buying an LGA laptop with a non-MXM GPU?

"See, no one wants an LGA CPU laptop, we told you so!!" - The killer's of LGA laptops, probably...

Probably dictated by Nvidia edict... "you will not use MXM GPU's in LGA laptops!!", that would fit in right along with Nvidia's edict to MSI that "you will not support upgradeable MXM GPU kits!!"

It's gotta be something like that, no one in their right mind would spec an LGA laptop without an MXM GPU.

Cost savings would be a hopelessly silly reason to torpedo the laptop by using a motherboard soldered GPU.

 

I’m sure Nvidia couldn’t dictate them. If so they would kill Dell as well. On top Clevo. They cheaped out bro Hmscott They tried did a dirty one... one step forward and two backwards. Directly in the trash can with it! Along with rest of the BGA filthy.

 

According to rumors Nvidia told MSI to kill the upgradeable MXM GPU kits, forcing MSI to follow through with the "2 generations of GPU upgrades" by doing trade-in's instead.

Different vendors have different relationships, who knows, there can't be a logical / rational reason to pair an LGA CPU with a soldered to the motherboard GPU, right?

Such a ludicrous decision has got to be a power play of some kind.

Doing it to kill off the future of LGA laptops at MSI seems about right.

Maybe Nvidia makes more money selling underperforming GPU's in thin and light laptops?

Building up a new LGA / MXM line-up at MSI might create a huge demand for top shelf Nvidia GPU's, which might cost Nvidia too much to deliver in quantity.

Those huge Nvidia monolithic GPU's must have a large drop off in graded performance - with only a small percentage making the grade - which means high costs to Nvidia to follow through on delivery.

Right now Nvidia can deliver the small quantities demanded by Dell / AW / Clevo, but if Asus / MSI started the ball rolling, the quantities could soar.

Either that or the bean counters at MSI can make technical decisions of their own during the design process.

 

Nope. MSI is big and Nvidia couldn’t force them. Same for Clevo. Dell come with their proprietary cards early this year. MSI kill it easily all by themselves! Money saving deluxe. None should support such company. Not even touch their desktop MB. Let them fry in own fat. Let them Die out fast!

 

That would suggest that MSI are idiots. I haven't observed that behavior from MSI before, but I've seen Nvidia force others to be idiots at their behest.

Sure, MSI staff are human like the rest of us, but to put in a soldered GPU into an LGA CPU laptop, considering MSI already have done LGA / MXM laptops for OEM and Professional laptop products before this; it just doesn't make sense.

For me the Nvidia angle is far more believable to me, and makes the most sense.

Something like, MSI asked Nvidia if they could deliver highest performance GPU's for a new line of ultra awesome LGA / MXM gaming laptops and Nvidia said "No, solder on the cheap GPU's instead."

MSI can only build what their suppliers will provide them.

 

MSI is a lot bigger than Alienware in the Gaming book industry. Aw is of course a part of Dell brand but nope I don’t buy it. They went damn cheap and preferred soldered it on to lower cost! Maybe they will follow AW thin line and solder more on mb next time. Just sad. Now one step forward and 100 steps backwards.

 

It's easier to package too.

 

There have been LGA / soldered GPU products from Asus and I don't think they shipped a lot of units either.

For the cost and additional weight, and considering performance comparisons I've seen so far I'd pick the GT75 over the GT76, but then again I don't need full desktop performance in a laptop.

There's enough of a performance lag in delivery from Intel / Nvidia in the laptop realm using laptop components that I think a real LGA / MXM laptop from MSI / Asus would sell well - at least as well as the top BGA / MXM laptops.

Acer didn't make a lot of the 21x either, and I don't think MSI is going to sell as many of the GT76 without an MXM GPU as MSI could have with full power MXM GPU's.

MSI has shipped a lot of MXM based laptops, and I doubt it's a big enough savings to warrant the inflexibility of configuration.

MSI bought flexibility with a socketed motherboard for the CPU only to stick themselves with needing a motherboard with a specific GPU soldered on to match a build?

That doesn't make sense.

 

Flexibility? The chips are pin compatible so if they have the sales percentages down.

 

Repairability and upgradability go hand-in-hand. The more components are soldered, the less repairable it is.

You can argue about the details, but that's the core truth.