BGA Venting Thread ;)

Well, that's exactly what I was referring to. MSI would have to be exactly on the nose for the % of motherboards fitted with a 2060, 2070, or 2080, or end up not having enough of what they can sell - requiring expensive short run builds to catch up to demand might end up costing MSI more than that theoretical "savings" from a soldered vs MXM GPU build.

 

The 21x was made in very limited amounts. I have posted the numbers some places. But very limited edition. A few hundreds? Search it up. I’m on a small phone and use small phone as pc is a difficult task

I think MSI sold a lot with MXM graphics. Hence sell it as BGA now is only to make more profit. No doubt about that. Lure people with LGA then solder on graphics is to lure enthusiasts. The Average Joe will never understand and will accept it. All the Talk about the fantastic desktop performance is to hide their new move. See... Pack their scam in glossy paper.

 

It will be simple economics rather than luring people, even with this class of machine the people who know what an MXM module even is is small.

 

The less knowledge people have the easier is it to lure them. That’s sad.

 

The economics of production too. Cheaper to ship all the components in bulk to one factory, put all the components on the one pcb (one round of engineering, design, QC testing) and one round in the oven.

Vs multiple pcbs, people paid to assemble them, extra stock inventory management and warehousing, transport of larger more fragile more expensive intermediate goods. And then work at the retail end to customise to the user's spec.

Then the marketing people figure out how to convince consumers that a couple mm of thinness will get them a pay rise, cure their sick dog, find them true love, etc. So the cost savings can be pocketed instead of passed on to consumers...

 

Add in cheap long pipes for Unified heatsink design for this cheap MB (including everything soldered) will lower costs as well. People jump on it as cheap advertised candy meant to lure you to the store

 

That’s a false equivalence that you’re pushing. I agree there is significant overlap, but one is not a strict subset of the other.

Case in point: many smartphones, though not ‘upgradeable’, are fairly repairable. Take for example, Apple’s iPhone (ironically). Two screws, a pry here and there, and you’re effectively in the system, and you can tear everything apart with little glue or adhesive holding anything down.

Compare to its MacBook, for instance, where even the battery is glued.

Another example: suppose there exists a notebook where the display is easily accessible, but for some reason, the firmware has a whitelist, and you can only install the manufacturer’s part. The replacement part is also easily accessible.

There we go: repairable, but not upgradeable.

 

The GT76 is made for those that know. Anyone looking at the price would want to know why it's much higher priced than the GT75 - why should I buy it? Then they'll be told it's the LGA CPU - a long boring conversation on the unicorn theory commences - but at the end they will be told to forget it because it has a non-removeable GPU.

Those in the know - like you - will kill the GT76, the only LGA gaming laptop MSI produces, because it's got a soldered non-MXM GPU.

Those that aren't knowledgeable will see the GT76 higher price with no explanation as to why it's so costly won't buy it either.

We can still buy a GT75 with a soldered BGA CPU + an MXM GPU, why not put an MXM GPU in the GT76 paired with an LGA CPU where it belongs?

The GT75 has higher production numbers so MSI could have save more money by soldering the GPU to the motherboard in the GT75 than in the GT76.

The GT76 has lower production numbers and an MXM GPU fits better with an LGA CPU, so it would make more sense to put the MXM GPU in the GT76.

Bundling an LGA CPU with a non-removeable GPU in the GT76 was designed to continue to kill LGA CPU's in laptops.

 

I am thinking more and more the GT76 was just a rushed product. If they had something in the works but wanted to get it released by summer instead of the fall after Alienware annouced the Area 51m at CES, it would explain why it lacks GSync, MXM, a mux and the GT75 keyboard. We go through these motions all the time with product owners we consult with. They have a list of features that is more that what can fit their release date. So we have to hash out what is the MVP and drop everything else.

 

The reasoning is simple: manufacturers do not want you to upgrade your laptops. They want you to replace them every couple of years.

As for the GT76: The LGA CPU, I suppose, allows you to eliminate any bottlenecking the CPU may cause to the GPU, by allowing you to upgrade/unlock the CPU and OC.

Bottom line: gamer laptops have become disposable objects, much like tablets. The fact production costs are also lowered is a bonus and further incentive. NVIDIA makes out either way, their chips go on BGA boards or MXM.

 

MSI should have waited to get it all together in a complete and fully satisfying offering instead of shipping out a half-baked product like the GT76.

 

The only way the liquid can condense is releasing the heat within it which means the pipe would then get hot....

 

I think it's down to the economics of production myself and cost of implementing MXM vs not.

 

Why MXM in so many MSI BGA laptops with such high production numbers, and then in the jewel of high end MSI laptops - with the first LGA CPU in an MSI gaming laptop - does MSI slap us in the face and not provide an MXM GPU in the GT76?

Making the current MSI GT76 configuration make no sense - dollars and cents or logical rational product sense.

Personally it was disappointing to have the GT76 configuration messed up so, with a full desktop CPU but a poorly matched GPU, such that I chose the GT75 over the GT76 as the upgrade from Pascal.

Now it's true I'd rather have an AMD desktop CPU / GPU as an option, so I guess it's not all bad if MSI can make that happen wisely pairing a PGA CPU with a full Navi GPU in the future.

 

Because their general direction could be changing with this model as the first.

 

Products like that, as niche as they are, aren't everyone's favourites. Most people are quite happy with BGAs as you just throw em out when they stop working. MSI could be thinking along the lines of probably allowing flexibility in one direction and allowing for a strong gpu to be BGA'ed. People usually don't upgrade in both the directions in one go in my humble opinion.

 

MSI already have their WS workstation laptops with LGA Xeon + MXM Nvidia Quadro's, and MSI has their 16L13 White Box laptops with LGA Intel CPU's + Nvidia Gaming MXM GPU's, so it's not like MSI isn't experienced with such LGA + MXM pairings - they've been doing it for years already.

Personally it was disappointing to have the GT76 configuration messed up so, with a full desktop CPU but a poorly matched GPU, such that I chose the GT75 over the GT76 as the upgrade from Pascal.

Now it's true I'd rather have an AMD desktop CPU / GPU as an option, so I guess it's not all bad if MSI can make that happen wisely pairing a PGA CPU with a full Navi GPU in the future in a similar form factor to the GT75/76 or even a nice new GT8x series laptop.

 

Are they only making one or two GPU options in it?

 

Absolutely true. It's not experience but rather, a business decision in this imho.

 

Exactly! Right on target. Make it cheaper to earn more $$$. No reason skip MXM slots in this type chassis (LGA socket). More than enough space due thickness.

The 16L13 White Box (15,6 chassis) laptops is dead. Only delivered with old processors. Dead End!

 

Would you have chose the GT76 if it had a MXM GPU, but still no mechanical keyboard, mux and optimus only (no GSync) support?

 

Mechanical keyboards need a lot of depth though and do put limitations on the design.

 

Oh, absolutely. The height of the GT75 is 1.22-2.28" and the height of the GT76 is 1.29-1.65". I guess technically the Area 51m is using a membrane keyboard as well, with similar key travel, so its pretty similar in that regard. The height of the Area 51m is 1.09-1.23" so thinner than the GT76 at it's thickest point. I suppose that is the advantage of having DGFF with BGA-level thickness.

In a way the GT76 is really a GE76 that happens to have LGA CPU. The GE series also uses Optimus, non-MaxQ BGA GPU, and the membrane keyboard. I guess having an LGA CPU is enough of a qualifier for MSI to consider it "hardcore gamer" so hence the GT classification.

 

That ans the levels of plastics in use.

 

I upgraded the membrane keyboard on my Clevo to a nice Corsair K63 Wireless SE. Also upgraded the 17.3" 1080p panel to a Samsung UE510 28" 4K external display.

 

And probably the nearest future called GT models. Everything BGA and a single BGA model with LGA socket for show off. What a awful beginning on the end.

@Mr. Fox What a bright future for Hig End and high performance Gaming Books This direction go the Apple way. In a speed we never have seen before.

 

The bar has never been set lower, but there is still room to lower it more. They'll probably release ARM/Android versions of Steam, Origin, Epic and other game clients soon. Instead of games being ported to PC from console garbage it will likely be ported from smartphone filth. Consoles will be viewed as "high end gaming hardware" LOL. Bad times, indeed, but not as low as we can go. There is still room for further degradation. We haven't discovered the bottom yet.

 

There is no shortage of digital diarrhea. The filth has no limits and people are much dumber than we give them credit for. Console gamers will be the "big boys" in the dystopian future that awaits us. Somebody please just shoot us all now and get it over with.

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Gaming.. phones?

Spoiler

 

Yes, an oxymoron to most of us, even with half of our brains tied behind our backs.

BGA filth and the obsession with thin and light computer feces has opened the gates of hell for PC enthusiasts. Now it is a self-fulling prophecy without any possibility for a happy ending.

 

I said hand-in-hand, not "strict subset". Also, I was referring to solder, not glue.

There was no false equivalence on my part.

 

I think one thing I've learned from this thread is that laptop enthusiasts like myself were spoiled for years by Dell, AW, and Lenovo. They made LGA/MXM parts mainstream and widely available.

It looks like industry is shifting towards BGA, planned obsolescence being the mainstream and LGA/MXM becoming a very small, expensive niche. As a laptop enthusiast, I feel that is unfortunate but there isn't a whole lot I can do about it.

 

The more I read about BGA and current manufacturer practices, the more I'm appalled by how people just accept it. Which enables such things in the first place. Very few people take the time to educate themselves before making a learned decision, and just go with the flow thinking "I guess it's just the way things are". And by the time they realize they're swimming up ****'s creek, they for some reason chose to defend it. (ie. soldered ram and crippled firmware)

 

I will never ever understand why people is willing to pay 2-3-4 or even $5K for a 15,6/17,3 Gaming phone Often the only differences vs the smaller phones is the storage size. I know bigger storage is more expensive but up to 5-10 times the price You get a fairy big ssd for $150. 3-4 K more for bigger chassis is madness.

 

Right off it was being non-MXM that turned me off to it. It was a big NO flag waving when I discovered it didn't have an MXM GPU. I was expecting an upgrade to Nvidia Super GPU's too, but with soldered GPU's I didn't want to wait to find out. I was told it would also be 2-3 months before GT76's would be added to the trade-in list, so that played a part too.

The large price increase was also a big negative considering it didn't have an MXM GPU. As soon as that was clear everything else (fewer M.2 slots, membrane keyboard, etc) became a negative too and it was a quick decision to take the last GT75 Titan-013 instead of waiting. I may have heard it had Optimus after deciding, and thought that was a nice bullet to dodge as well.

 

I bought my gaming laptop to retire from using bulky desktops. Now I want to go back to desktops.

 

Yup, I don't worry too much about a laptop's keyboard / trackpad as I use an external 99% of the time - they are more robust and dependable, plus clean unused keyboard / trackpad makes resale value higher, plus if I don't use them I don't wear them out or spill liquid on them and need to replace them.

I do prefer a great display though, as I use it even with external displays attached.

 

Seems like an industry paradigm really: Toss in top specs but make it BGA. The power hungry customer will come back in a couple of years later to take a big scoop of this foul smelling poop, with a grin on his face being the only solace, to this industry which is degrading at a never before seen pace, they're dropping faster than anyone can give chase.

pfft. Thanks for making me type all that, MSI.

 

If you don't mind my asking, what laptop did you choose. Don't see one in your sig.

 

Remember laptops with full BGA package will and can cost the same as laptops with LGA/MXM. And when the normal laptops is gone, today’s/tomorrow’s Jokes will all be expensive junk. Spend all your money on this expensive soldered mess and can’t afford the extended warranty (you spent all money on the notebook and yeah it will die before you know it) this will before or later force push people over on Desktops. Hope this will come as a hammer in the notebook manufacturers junk makers face. Not all will accept planned obsolescence!

 

Oh, you did the trade up program, that makes sense. The GT76 006 config looks like its pretty close in price and specs but then you lose the MXM slot so its not really a better deal.

 

It's not at all "close" in price, the MSRP - what you trade-in against - for the GT76 Titan DT-006 is $4199:
https://www.cnet.com/products/msi-g...-9900k-64-gb-ram-512-gb-2x-ssd-plus-1-tb-hdd/

The MSRP for the GT75 Titan-013 is $3399, or $800 less:
https://www.cnet.com/products/msi-gt75-titan-013-17-3-core-i9-8950hk-16-gb-ram-256-gb-ssd/

The prices I was told was $1000-$1500 more MSRP for the GT76 vs the GT75's...there were no model numbers or online info for the GT76 when I needed to decide.

I would have still decided for the GT75 knowing what I know now about the GT76, even more so now.

 

Yeah, unfortunately BGA laptops will be just as expensive as mainstream LGA laptops were. And new LGA laptops are going to be crazy expensive, because they will be a niche product aimed at high-end consumers. LGA laptops will lose economy of scale.

 

Whoops, I meant the DT-090 config which I saw on Provantage for around $3500 (not sure about MSRP but it may be $3599 or so). Seemed to be the lowest priced and reasonably specced configuration. I mean, what gamer really needs 64GB of RAM?

 

Somewhat wrong. LGA/MXM laptops haven’t been much more expensive vs. so called high end BGA Junk. I paid less vs. the soldered high end Aw tragedy 2015/16. And I’m on my 3rd upgrade on Cpu (6700K-7700K-8700K-9900K) @Falkentyne @Mr. Fox Sell old chips then upgrade. With soldered on you’re screwed with what you got. You could of course upgrade in 2015 with a MB upgrade from 6700Hq to the 6820Hk. But mhhhe (puke) not a massive upgrade. Afterwards Dead End!

Edit. Now even more screwed but with soldered ram and WiFi on top.

 

The prices seem fluid, it's already changed on that CNET page, here's the cached version:
https://webcache.googleusercontent....-ssd-plus-1-tb-hdd/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Well that's top spec 2080 GT75 Titan-013 vs top spec 2080 GT76 DT-006, options are a bit different, but same idea.

The GT76 DT-090 is a different CPU and screen, and it's MSRP is about $4,120:
http://us.directdial.com/GT76DT090.html

The GT76 would have been about $1000 more MSRP (+premium of $50-$100 for new vs old stock) for trade-in compared to the GT75 Titan-013.

 

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On a side note, it will be interesting to see if core counts keep increasing or if it will settle down for a bit.

 

Technically, unless we see die shrinks, the core count might not go up purely because of TDP concerns imho.
OT:
For someone sailing the Atlantic, you sure are pretty darn active Meak

 

In Iceland at the moment using my international minutes, others have been with my 120 minutes of ship wifi