BGA Venting Thread ;)

It's interesting to see where it takes the market globally.

 

Here's some more news about Framework laptops...

Framework Reveals More About Its Customizable Laptop's Parts tomshardware.com

Big corp as Dell continue it's disgusting practise. All know their laptops ain't upgradable (Cpu, Gpu, Ram and wifi can't be replaced). But many don't know they will be screwed also if they jump on their desktop gaming flagship. Can't be better than this?

 

When will people ever learn? Dell/Alienware is not their friend. The best interests of those that buy their products are not at heart. Even their desktops are castrated. They intentionally do everything in their power to block end-user upgrades. It is shameful and unforgivable.

 

I miss the higher portability of my high end laptops for sure, and the joy of unpacking it and booting it up and benchmarking it the first few times going for a new personal best score. But I also can't believe how much better it is to be able to work on my desktop, upgrade it, replace it with standard parts. The performance doesn't have the low limitations of power like mobile does. As Todd Howards once said, "It just works".

I will always have a few laptops around, but I'm not sure if I will ever own a DTR gaming system that "does it all" ever again unfortunately.

 

https://www.gofundme.com/f/lets-get-right-to-repair-passed

 

Aren't Framework selling those upgradable as a whole instead of part-by-part? If design of the notebook changes you'll have no chance of fitting newer BGA Chips on older designed chassis. I don't think the laptop supports PCLGA where you can go with basic model and upgrade if you need more resources.

 

Yes, it seems their definition of upgrade is not aligned with how an enthusiast would use that word. What they're calling upgrades is more like configuration options and it is already doable on most laptops with the caveat of limited parts availability often being an issue.

 

I doubt any enthusiast option exists in DTR laptops. They are basically dead and replaced with BGA which makes sourcing parts after 3-4 years a nightmare and even replacing it with original parts costs a fortune when you can buy new one at cheaper price and will be 50% more powerful.

 

That's the whole business model on which this whole BGA crap is based on. If it wasn't for AMD, I am sure that eventually, desktop boards would have ended up getting sold with soldered CPUs.

 

Let's not forget the high upfront cost of buying a DTR laptop. BGA laptops are meant to be used and tossed away. Pick a cost range that you feel is sustainable and go for it. 3-4 years with a $1k laptop is consistent with 3-4 years with a $1k smartphone.

 

Yeah more or less we might end up with pay as go cloud based offering just for web browsing or even desktop with soldered components for 5000$.

 

I remember Intel thinking out loud a while back, posting something about selling motherboards with soldered desktop CPUs. That pissed a lot of people off so they immediately went back and said something along the lines of "Haha we were just kidding. We're not going to actually do this!".

They probably wanted to see how many people would react. Planned obsolecence is extrememly wasteful. Businesses need to find something that gives a good balance of profitability and durability in their products if they want to make more money. Making lots of money is great, but being too greedy screws everyone over, including themselves.

Resources are finite. If you keep making products at a faster rate than those resources can be replenished, you'll eventually have nothing left to sell.

 

Is not that businesses are greedy, it's how the corporate system works. As a CEO you are appointed by a board that demands of you to increase revenue and profits for them. It's your job to find a way to do it. If you don't, they will toss you out and find someone else who will. If you give them some speech about the environment and bla bla, they won't care, most people on those boards are bonused based on how well the company benefits to whoever appointed them there, while the guy who appointed him/her there is driving his yacht through the Bahamas or playing golf with his buddies.

As you can imagine, at some point, you can't simply increase profits and revenue without compromising what you are giving to your customers. See Youtube and their terrible ads or any other company which at some point made great products for a decent profit but then it slowly declined in quality and started to make stuff which no longer benefited its customers but only the members of the board and wall street. However, without any real alternative, the customers are forced to use/buy their products and any new company which could challenge them would face a massive market entry barrier in terms of R&D costs, market recognition and patents.

In my view we only have two options:
1. Buy from lesser-known brands which are more environmentally friendly. Their products will be more expensive, maybe even inferior to those of the market leaders, but hey, we save the planet.
2. Government regulations.

 

Mind you... we do not have to approve, like, or agree with any of this. I suspect many of us absolutely do not. I know I don't. If we don't want to drink the BGA wee-wee Kool-Aid, voting no with your wallet and encouraging others to do the same is a very honorable approach to undermine the system. After a while, a dripping faucet begins to erode the sink and in the meanwhile, it is as annoying as hell. That's the purpose of this thread. Even the losers in a war have their heroes and the soldiers that are engaged get to experience the satisfaction of causing casualties, pain, suffering, and grief for their enemies in some measure. At the very least, the resistance identifies itself as a vicious group of troublemakers on a mission to inflict damage on their enemies anywhere they can.

 

Hey, they offer ram slots and wifi slots. You can't get that if you jump on Dell's new "high-end" gamingbooks. And if the MB burn up right after warranty have expired, they can probably sell you one. Dell don't offer parts for sale after your lovely Jokebook have went up in flames, the battery have popped up your palmrest or the fans have stopped work after spinning 100% to keep Cpu temp at 100C. They'll try force you to buy new junk!
https://www.dell.com/community/Alienware/17-R4-Fan-Replacement/td-p/7836748

They probably need all the spare parts themself to fulfill all the warranty repairs when the premium extended warranty period start to run.

 

Dell packing a savage punch - first roasting the mobo and possibly the GPU and then refusing to sell replacements for those poor overworked fans. Alienware on a mission of epic customer alienation

 

Now they just need to solder and encrypt the storage with no recovery port

 

Careful, they might be listening for new bad ideas.

 

Yep we don't need another Apple or incase of Dell Depple doing that trick.

Sent from my SNE-LX1 using Tapatalk

 

Great find again @Papusan.
They also should list as: «NOT FOR SALE» all their computers.
I ask.....will they listen?

 

A certain fruit company is already leading by example, true innovation

 

Their practicies are sickening and

That is a VERY good find and I have sent this to two people I know who may be susceptible to buying some of their crap again.

Dell would be able to do it all and do it right with their resources and instead it is just empty promises, hollow marketing slogans and unforgivable deceptions on so many levels.
I have more respect for companies who just straight up sell their turdbooks / locked in crap without always pretending to be something they aren't.

 

With PCI-E I could maybe see a modular basis if people got together and agreed on standards for things like slot in boards.

It would take people really thinking about life cycle implications of products and wanting them to last longer.

 

I mean the AW customers is epic. They seems to struggle hard to know what they buy p45e (R4 M17) Replacing the Wifi Card

This is damn epic... "I can't seem to find the Wifi Card inside the laptop and when I look up any manuals on alienware they give me the wrong laptop". Why not just buy Dell's G series gamingbooks? Not so fancy design, cheaper and you get ram slots and you can even upgrade/replace the wifi card.

 

Nothing spells cool quite as much as having to resort to an external Wifi solution when the internal soldered one goes belly up

If one has to get something from Dell the G series looks better but honestly after destroying the great Alienware brand I would rather not give Dell my money any more and go elsewhere.

 

I remember the old celeron machine I upgraded now maybe a decade ago to a whopping 700Mhz pentium 3, took to 192mb of ram from 64mb, 80GB 7200rpm HDD from an 8GB 4000rpm unit. Put in a hardware accelerated PCMCIA sound blaster card and took out the 56k modem card and replaced it with a 54g WiFi card and routed the antenna in the chassis. Put in a dvd reader instead of the original CDROM.

Went from Windows 98 to XP.

Converted ewaste into a portable dvd player.

 

That's what I'm talking about. By contrast I love the MSI GT75 chassis to death after falling in love with the magnificent keyboard and also the whole cooling / fan control concept that I think is excellent and bios modifications are available, too. Overal a very nice package if one can live with a bit more weight and volume than the average DTR. But now come the bummers:

I would have liked to upgrade to an 8 core processor but no way as it is BGA - chance of successfully pulling off an upgrade to a 9880H or 9980HK are next to zero and would most probably result in a motherboard destruction or incompatibility of the hardware even if I would be able to find somebody who manages to replace the CPU. If it was a P870 I could go all the way up to a 9900k for that mainboard chipset, with the GT75 I am stuck with the 6 core 8750H in this one. It also is one of the first laptops with a chipset that supports 128 GB of memory but guess what: MSI does not think that this is really necessary so there is no new bios to enable that, only the successor gets that.

It is still a very nice laptop and I now use it in a place where 6 cores and up to 64 GB memory will be more than enough but with better upgradability I could have kept it as my main laptop and my recent purchase of the X170KM-G would not have been necessary.

 

Yeah, Dell won't give at the doors. Here is a new one but list as #TO PURCHASE FROM NOT-DELL#. And remember Alienware don't offer upgradable hardware anymore (everything BGA). How easy will it be to get a NEW motherboard from Dell? And where on Dell's site can you find the parts to upgrade your "worlds most upgradeable" laptop? Was it meant as a Joke?


Another one: Alienware 15 r3 heat sink replacement

I think Dell prefer sell their parts to their partners instead https://www.parts-people.com/


Dell OEM Replacement Parts
We have been specializing in Dell Laptop parts and Dell laptop repair services more than 18 years. Parts-People.com has become the leading supplier of Dell laptop and tablet parts for consumers, businesses, government agencies, computer repair shops, school districts, and corporate firms.

 

Thanks @Papusan for informing us about it.
Now i understand why dell is always offerirng me a new laptop under warranty instead of repairing it. It's not for good gesture. It's simply because they do not have the parts for my 2 to 3 year old system.
In fact they simply have no other choice.
Isn't there a law against such bad practice?

 

Dell claiming they have spareparts 5 years forwards. But usually only for places they don't want offer you an refurbished machine. All parts being sent back and forth to those places. Have seen people have to accept +5 repairs and they still won't get replacement machine for the dud that is in "never ending" repair. With BGA its easy... Put in a refurbished MB and hope for the best. If it don't work out then try a new MB that is repaired in-house. The Ugly truth about BGA cancer!

Edit.


Dell refuse to swap in new motherboards. They re-use the old one who they think works.

 

Damn that sucks - must cost them an arm and a leg, too.

The funny thing is that Dell would have the resources to do a lot better than that if they planned things in a proper way but then their jokebooks would not have this great performance and benchmarks in the beginning that later in life kill them due to running crazy hot all of the time.

 

Why would you expect anything different from any OEM making BGA trash. I keep harping on cost, but that truly is becoming an important factor in deciding how much to spend on a laptop. Customers should have no illusion that the vendor will provide ongoing parts and support beyond the bare minimum amount of time associated with normal wear and tear. The model is charge a lot up front, and expect the customer to replace the whole system as soon as possible.

 

Pride of ownership is not quite the same with disposable trash so most users here still hope for something different.

 

The thing is, I don't know anyone who would just want to outright replace their system if something went wrong with it. Even my non-technical friends would rather have someone repair it for them than buy a new machine.

It's generally more cost effective to fix stuff to keep it going for an extra few years than to buy a new machine. I doubt the masses are happy with the throwaway mentality that is being shoved down their throats, because this group is very sensitive to pricing.

It could be that my friend group is out of touch with what most consumers really think, but this is what I see. My friend group is pretty diverse, so I'd like to think I have a good idea on how many different types of people think.

 

That is the key point. If it's repairable. Soldered components are not repairable. Inverted motherboards with cheap, soft screws are not meant to be handled except by knowledgeable staff. If GPU chip fails but it happens to be soldered. A $3k+ laptop that has a heat sink that requires dremel or other physical modification. A $1k laptop with a $200+ repair bill starts becoming less palatable. The list goes on. Enthusiasts have the capability to rebuilding their systems. You see it everywhere on this forum. Some people like me are enthusiast wannabes. I have no interest in ripping wires while disconnecting the battery; stripping screws and struggling to recover.

Consumers need to be realistic in their purchases and expectations for how long to keep them. I had a hybrid car. The entire time I owned the car I was concerned over replacing the $7k battery. You can either plan ahead and save up to replace the battery; you can get rid of the car before the battery becomes more likely to fail; or you can avoid the purchase altogether.

 

People do not like to throw things away but what usually happens is that manufacturers like Apple or Dell make them feel better by offering an "upgrade" so that they can save face while parting with their defective everything-soldered BGA-book. Apple and Dell then do their part to create more e-waste by throwing it away after the trade-in.

 

Way worse than say a car trade in.

It's like these mining GPUs.

 

Why'd 17.3" became the standard for large laptops rather than 24"? That size should be able to put full size dimms, larger vrms, larger gpu pcbs too, ever larger heatsinks and more storage devices. Also support for real ram oc? Seems very limited on sodimms?

 

Carry that thing 2 hours a day on your back and you will soon find out. 10 years ago Dell used to have a 21 0inch XPS laptop - the M2010, but it didn't sell very well. https://www.cnet.com/reviews/dell-xps-m2010-review/

 

Not to mention they should always perform like desktops. With that kind of a chassis size, it'd have to be a desktop in a laptop form factor to get sales.

I think 19 inches is big enough. I'm personally fine with a 17 inch laptop, but wouldn't go smaller. A 19 inch laptop is the biggest I'd go as well since anything bigger would cause me to be cramped in small spaces.

 

Plus battery sizes (for planes) and ability to provide power have limits.

 

The ASUS GX800VH was 5.7kg ( 10.4 kg with the dock ) but rather than being a separate unit, it could've just been a larger 21.5+ inch laptop? Acer's 21.5 inch laptop was only 8.5 kg. If it's a gaming laptop, does the speakers/camera need to be included or would a gamer just carry their own headphones?

 

It gets to the point where it may as well have those things. The p570wm was really the closest thing to what you are talking about with HEDT chipset and dual graphics cards.

It failed to sell well as people were not interested in the weight/size sacrifices.

 

Predictable. However, a machine like the P570WM can be used for marketing and increase a brand's prestige.
@Meaker@Sager I think the only way to keep socketable laptops relevant and keep costs down is to make a size fits all motherboard. Something like the old P150/P170 used to have, which shared largely the same motherboard. I know it's more R&D, but in the long term, it could be the only way to keep production costs down. I mean the whole competitive advantage that Clevo had over the years was the ability to customise their laptops, you should continue to build and rely on that. If you don't build and strengthen your competitive advantage, Clevo/Sager will slowly get pushed out of the market. In my opinion, Clevo will not remain relevant/competitive if it tries to compete in the trashbook / soldered market segment which is the bulk of the market.

 

Same board = the same capabilities basically, that becomes harder to sell. Designing the shell itself and producing that is not cheap either.

 

Can't you use expansion boards, like with the extra M-SATA board on the old P170SM-A?

 

Yeah modest differences but nothing major.

 

Framework Adds Specs, Opens Pre-Orders for Repairable Notebook tomshardware.com

Starting at $999, or a $749 DIY Kit

Framework, which announced its modular, repairable laptop back in February, now has full specs, pricing and is opening pre-orders for the machine. It will come in three configurations, starting at $999.

There will also be a DIY edition, starting at $749 barebones, that you build yourself from a kit and customize with parts and modules.

 

Always will be a sacrifice for true modularity.

 

Apple, Google & Microsoft Have Teamed up to Block the Right-to-Repair Law wccftech.com

More Than Half of 27 States Have Voted Down or Dismissed the Right to Repair Law
Bloomberg today released a report on how companies like Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, and Google are working together to put a stop to laws that would make it necessary for companies to provide device schematics, genuine repair parts, and repair manuals to independent repair technicians.

Almost 27 states have considered the laws in 2021 alone, but in more than half of them, the laws have been voted down or dismissed. Many lobbyists and trade groups representing tech companies have fought hard against this law with Apple pointing out that such measures could lead to device damage or consumers harming themselves when attempting to repair their devices.